Randy,
I applaud Your contribution to this thread.
Frank
While I generally agree with what Sheldon has to say most of the time, I think he is applying a few of his characteristics into the 'new modeler" as a whole. This greatly limits the point of view into a narrow band.
1). Not willing to by used stuff off of ebay is probably not a characteristic shared by most. I can't speak for what a newbie is likely to do, but ebay is popular enough to suggest that he would be willing to buy XYZ locomotive off of ebay. There is plenty of opportunities to buy just about anythng needed off of ebay.
2). The desire to model XYZ train in the first place. I don't think most newbies try to model a specific train or location. I think that generally comes after they grow a bit in the hobby. JMO, so maybe not.
I agree that the pre-order business model is frustrating, and certainly inhibits the attractiveness of the hobby. I think the internet and ebay are greatly responsible.
Here's why.....
Model trains last forever. They can be NIB or used and resold 10 even 20 years after they were made. It basically turns every modeler's basement into a compeitior for the LHS. Whereas back in the day, the LHS was about the only place to get XYZ locomotive.
While I'm sure a shop needs to get big or go home, they still represent a small group of outlets with which to sell products, even small LHS can survive in that environment. But allowing every hobbyist to retail his unwanted items opens up the competition tremendously.
I think that discourages producers to make many runs of similar product compared to back in the day. They'd be competing to sell their new XYZ locomotive with the XYZ locomotive they sold to another modeler years ago. They need the rarity of the item and the higher margin that creates.
- Douglas
russ_q4b davidmurray russ_q4b This seems to me as another example of the government being too involved in business. If they were smarter about enviromental regulations maybe these manufactorers could make their products in the USA and create more jobs here. Russ: I do not agree that workplace health and safety laws are excessive. I do not want anyone, even an american, to die of lung cancer or liver failure because they made model railroad products for me. Chinese labour laws are comparable to Alamba field hand treatment before the civil war. Free trade laws are pulling the free world workers down to chineses, indian and pakistanie levels. And not just in model railroading items. Dave, a proud retired union member. Are you in favor of having Chinese workers to suffer lung cancer or kidney failure while there are making your choo choos? Russ: Read my whole post, I said ANYONE, not even an american. I am not american. However I no not think anyone on these forums has any influence, not even a vote, concerning chinese labour laws. Dave
davidmurray russ_q4b This seems to me as another example of the government being too involved in business. If they were smarter about enviromental regulations maybe these manufactorers could make their products in the USA and create more jobs here. Russ: I do not agree that workplace health and safety laws are excessive. I do not want anyone, even an american, to die of lung cancer or liver failure because they made model railroad products for me. Chinese labour laws are comparable to Alamba field hand treatment before the civil war. Free trade laws are pulling the free world workers down to chineses, indian and pakistanie levels. And not just in model railroading items. Dave, a proud retired union member.
russ_q4b This seems to me as another example of the government being too involved in business. If they were smarter about enviromental regulations maybe these manufactorers could make their products in the USA and create more jobs here.
Russ: I do not agree that workplace health and safety laws are excessive. I do not want anyone, even an american, to die of lung cancer or liver failure because they made model railroad products for me.
Chinese labour laws are comparable to Alamba field hand treatment before the civil war. Free trade laws are pulling the free world workers down to chineses, indian and pakistanie levels. And not just in model railroading items.
Dave, a proud retired union member.
Are you in favor of having Chinese workers to suffer lung cancer or kidney failure while there are making your choo choos?
Russ: Read my whole post, I said ANYONE, not even an american. I am not american.
However I no not think anyone on these forums has any influence, not even a vote, concerning chinese labour laws.
Dave
DoughlessNot willing to by used stuff off of ebay is probably not a characteristic shared by most.
Absolutely correct. If it were true there would not be any train shows/swap meets would there.
maxman Doughless Not willing to by used stuff off of ebay is probably not a characteristic shared by most. Absolutely correct. If it were true there would not be any train shows/swap meets would there.
Doughless Not willing to by used stuff off of ebay is probably not a characteristic shared by most.
So I do see Sheldon's point, as it applies to him, even though I'm critical of it as a generalization. If you leave out buying anything used or from ebay, then it might be hard to get started. Realistically though, how many people would restrict themselves in that way? Very few.
Quite frankly, used equipment is the entry point for many hobbies and recreational activities, and again model railroading is no different -- for most of us. People want to try something before they make a big investment in time, energy, and money. And if they're under 30, how many are going to say, "Nothing off ebay or from the fleamarket"? Very few.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
If you refuse to use eBay, you are missing out on an awful lot of stuff. I would have to say more than 50% of my stuff comes from eBay - because most of it is long out of production and the only way I am going to get it is ebay or train show. Very little of what I have as far as locomotives and rolling stock comes from new, current production purchases. Even 25% or so of my structures are ebay or train show, because they are out of production.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
I have to wonder, given all the things there are to do with one's time, space, and money: why would somebody get started in model railroading?
Maybe there will always be a fairly constant percentage of the population that is interested in the hobby.
russ_q4b I visited a hobby shop was about to close and one of the owner's gave me some insight why it was more difficult to stay in business. She stated that most manufactorers like to use certain paints and solvents that give the models the best appearance but unfeasible to use in the US because of the excessive regulations. Therefore the manufactores have to resort to outsourcing the production to other countries thereby being subjected to the "production run game". So to have a chance of obtianing a particular product they would have to order large quantities and wait up to a year or more for delivery. She said sometimes this uncertainty in delivery causes customers to loose interest in the product. This seems to me as another example of the government being too involved in business. If they were smarter about enviromental regulations maybe these manufactorers could make their products in the USA and create more jobs here. The state of New Jersey now will not allow the Telsa electric cars to be sold by Telsa dealers, instead sold through independant dealers. The US and state governments should ease up on stupid regulations so we can pull ourselves out of this sluggish economy.
I visited a hobby shop was about to close and one of the owner's gave me some insight why it was more difficult to stay in business. She stated that most manufactorers like to use certain paints and solvents that give the models the best appearance but unfeasible to use in the US because of the excessive regulations. Therefore the manufactores have to resort to outsourcing the production to other countries thereby being subjected to the "production run game". So to have a chance of obtianing a particular product they would have to order large quantities and wait up to a year or more for delivery. She said sometimes this uncertainty in delivery causes customers to loose interest in the product.
This seems to me as another example of the government being too involved in business. If they were smarter about enviromental regulations maybe these manufactorers could make their products in the USA and create more jobs here.
The state of New Jersey now will not allow the Telsa electric cars to be sold by Telsa dealers, instead sold through independant dealers.
The US and state governments should ease up on stupid regulations so we can pull ourselves out of this sluggish economy.
Did this hobby shop owner happen to have teabags hanging from her hat? Sounds like someone has a particular axe to grind.
if the paint were illegal to spray on the models here, why would they be allowed to import them after they were painted? The sad fact of the matter is that this type of manufacturing has been abandoned by US interests due to labor costs. Most model railroad items are made in a handful of factories, increasing productivity, efficiency, and all sorts of terms the people who care only about the bottom line like to hear.
Milepost 266.2 russ_q4b I visited a hobby shop was about to close and one of the owner's gave me some insight why it was more difficult to stay in business. She stated that most manufactorers like to use certain paints and solvents that give the models the best appearance but unfeasible to use in the US because of the excessive regulations. Therefore the manufactores have to resort to outsourcing the production to other countries thereby being subjected to the "production run game". So to have a chance of obtianing a particular product they would have to order large quantities and wait up to a year or more for delivery. She said sometimes this uncertainty in delivery causes customers to loose interest in the product. This seems to me as another example of the government being too involved in business. If they were smarter about enviromental regulations maybe these manufactorers could make their products in the USA and create more jobs here. The state of New Jersey now will not allow the Telsa electric cars to be sold by Telsa dealers, instead sold through independant dealers. The US and state governments should ease up on stupid regulations so we can pull ourselves out of this sluggish economy. Did this hobby shop owner happen to have teabags hanging from her hat? Sounds like someone has a particular axe to grind. if the paint were illegal to spray on the models here, why would they be allowed to import them after they were painted? The sad fact of the matter is that this type of manufacturing has been abandoned by US interests due to labor costs. Most model railroad items are made in a handful of factories, increasing productivity, efficiency, and all sorts of terms the people who care only about the bottom line like to hear.
I am not sure that labor costs is the reason to outsource to other countries any more. 10 to 40 years ago I am sure overseas manufactorers had a hugh cost advantage. China over the last 20 years has made a tremondous economic transformation and the chinese wages are coming closer to US wages. Micro Trains manufacters in the US, Oregon I think. Anyhow I keep hearing in the news that manufacturing jobs are coming back to the USA. Anyhow I am sure that hobby shop dealer who interacts with manufacters on a daily basis will know much more about the economics of producing a product than me a Software Engineer.
Not long ago, I was paging through a project book, that spent about a decade on a trainroom bookshelf. I found notes on kitbashing the cars needed to model the PC Spirit of St Louis, by kitbashing IHC-Rivarossi passenger cars. Since then I have obtained new ready to use cars that cover the vast majority of the cars I needed to kitbash to complete the project. Needless to say, life has become easier. I probably have enough inventory in unfinished kits to open up my own LHS. In some cases, I wonder what I was thinking when I bought the kit, and in other cases, I'm amazed at how primitive the kits were in the 1980s.
I'm really not concerned about the future of the hobby, nor am I nostalgic for the past. I'm just concerned about enjoying what I currently operate, while I decide what to do with my collection of unbuilt kits.
russ_q4bThe state of New Jersey now will not allow the Telsa electric cars to be sold by Telsa dealers, instead sold through independant dealers.
I believe that this is an incorrect statement. What they are saying is that Tesla's need to be sold through a franchised dealer, not from a "Tesla Store", which is basically direct from the factory. They are saying that that is their law, and the way all other vehicles are sold in New Jersey. Heere is where I'm getting my information: http://money.cnn.com/2014/03/14/autos/elon-musk-tesla-new-jersey/
All of that said, what this all has to do with hobby shop closings is beyond me.
I'm not quite a teen, but I am in my 20's and I've just enetered into the world of model trains through my research of a model in the collection of the Brooklyn Museum.
Not a model train in the typical sense, this is an over 2' wood model of an interior with fully functioning adjustable upholstered seats and sleeping berths. While I've tenously connected the model to a patent from 1869 ( not Pullman or Woodruff), I haven't been able to find out why this model would have been made (it's too large for a patent model and far too elaborate). Any of you history buffs have any ideas??
Sheldon,Of course there was wide spread, long term availability of models. That's because there was so few of them. Every hobby shop in the USA had all the same Athearn kits, MDC/Roundhouse kits, Stewart kits, etc. They all cranked them out, year after year, and they didn't even change the road numbers. The Athearn NH F7A #0272 I bought in 1990 was the exact same model that was available in 1980, and it had the exact same shell that was painted in 1970. It was just as wrong in the 1960's as it was in the 1990's. It had the same number from the previous paint scheme, for pete's sake.
MB Kleins had all the Athearn kits? So did a hobby shop in Colchester, CT. Hundreds of miles apart, and they had the same inventory. It shows how stagnant the hobby was.
What good was modeling the XYZ Railroad when nothing realistic existed for it? Let's go back to the olden days of 1991. I own a 1991 Walthers Catalog and it's next to my PC as I type this. In 1991, I was 16 and had just really gotten into the hobby the year before when my dad joined a club. I had been a New Haven fan since I can remember because of my father's collection of Rivarossi NH passenger cars and that it ran next to my home. When I got the hobby bug, I wanted to model the NH, too. I used this very same catalog to "plan" my NH purchases.
Guess what? There wasn't any other than the Athearn F7A-F7B I had bought the year before (which NH didn't have...which I found out later much to my chagrin), the Athearn SDP40 (which the NH never had...it's not even close as the NH had no C-C diesels), the Rivarossi E8A (again, the NH never had 'em), and the Stewart RS-3 (hey! The NH actually had these!). The mightly 1991 Walthers catalog could only supply me with just one diesel class of 25 diesels on the NH's 500+ diesel roster. And, quite frankly, the Stewart RS-3 kinda stunk with poor pulling power and a frame I could bend with my bare hands.
How many potential modelers never got into the hobby at all because the only models for the ABC railroad were cheap, train set junk? Or were of models that were nonsense?Yon olden days were great if you modeled a never-was railroad. It didn't matter if it was a UP FEF or a NKP Berk. Just paint your home railroad on it and call it a railroad. I'm sure you loved the old days, Sheldon, for that very reason. But for anyone who actually wants to model a real railroad, the modern hobby has the most to offer us.
Paul A. Cutler III
Paul3But for anyone who actually wants to model a real railroad, the modern hobby has the most to offer us. Paul A. Cutler III
Paul,I think you forget back then you could model some roads like the PRR,UP,SP,Santa Fe,GN and several others and we did exactly that and enjoyed ourselves since the hobby was far more relaxed back then since we understood it was a simple hobby and a bottomless money pit.
Brass steam locomotives was availble for several railroads and the line of available diesels was workable including some brass diesels.
Now with that said today's detailed models would not be here if we younger modelers didn't raise a fuss wanting better details.
It all started with detailed brass steam locomotives of the 50/60s and we young modelers wanted the same for our diesels and that dream was realized with Life Like's release of thier P2K line.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
A few more thoughts:
Paul, "back in the day" lots of modelers modeled real prototypes and super detailed, kit bashed and scratch built accurate models. The desire for accurate models in not new. I was following plans in MR and adding correct details to models at age 12. Just now you don't have to do the work your self. That is a conversation for a different day in my mind, but I know you think we should tollerate preorders and poor availablity in return for accurate RTR models - I don't.
To others, I agree if you include the secondary market, the supply chain is greatly expanded. I'm not sure how new people see that or feel about that. As I said before, I'm not much for buying "already been played with", but I do buy "new old stock", not yet out of the box type stuff on the secondary market.
When I sold MATCO TOOLS, the market research said the average professional mechanic only worked with his tools for seven years and then moved into management or to a different trade - and they vertually all kept their tools, creating a fresh endless market.
I wonder how many inactive modelers there are sitting on vast pools of product? I don't think "everyone" gets rid of stuff just because they loose interest or lack time/space. So while the secondary market is surely an outlet for those who do want to sell their private collections, I question if that is the majority behavior?
I know personally that I am not one who buys/sells, buys/sells, buys/sells - I still have easily 90% of all the model trains I have bought in 46 years. Sure a piece here and there that I have changed my mind about, but even inactivity would not have me in a rush to sell stuff off. Guess I was raised different.
Also to some of you, where the trains are made and the geopolitical issues with China are not really what my original comments are about. Generally I understand that conversations on here go where they go, but those sorts of conversations always end badly on here.
Mike L, actually lots of hobby shops/train stores were very successful with that old business model, some still are today. As I point out every time one closes, often they close not for money reasons, but because the owner has no one to take over at retirement. Yes, it is a tough business today, and being "small" surely does not really work like it did in 1965, but many of the big guys with big inventories are doing well. And I think it could be done even better.
Thanks to all for your views, lots of good comments.
Sheldon
ATLANTIC CENTRALMike L, actually lots of hobby shops/train stores were very successful with that old business model, some still are today. As I point out every time one closes, often they close not for money reasons, but because the owner has no one to take over at retirement. Yes, it is a tough business today, and being "small" surely does not really work like it did in 1965, but many of the big guys with big inventories are doing well. And I think it could be done even better.
I think the past tense tends to apply here, Sheldon. In my hearts of hearts, I wish it were otherwise, but the bottom line tells the story. If it were truly and generally a profitable business model, then those retiring would entertain multiple offers. That's simply not the case. While it's not a completely dead-end business model -- if I won the lottery, I'd be looking for a location to start one myself -- it's still a good way to turn a small fortune into a smaller one.
Yes, big guys with big inventories do well, but that's in large part due to them being the remaining winners in a process that otherwise creates far more losers than winners. People have to be comfortable with the idea that it's more labor of love than viable business model -- as they will likely be disappointed in the finamcial return.
When you have a large inventory, you also are sitting on a large pile of capital. Either it turns over quickly or the bottom line turns red quickly. Yes, there are a few who succeed in doing that and it seems as much a matter of luck and good location as it is business acumen.
My own primary supplier is a former LHS, had a great shop stocked in exactly the manner you discuss on the fringes of a major urban area -- until about 5 or 6 years ago, when the cost of rent, utilies, etc finally brought that era to a close. He now does mail order only, plus shows within a reasonable distance. His service is excellent, his prices fair (at least 20% off), and he's a pleasant fellow to work with. Despite major online retailers, their pricing and stock, he's always close if not the same in terms of his pricing, so rarely do I purchase elsewhere, even to save a few bucks on a specific item.
The LHS a great model for modellers, so I understand the nostalgia for it, but an iffy business nowadays. If good intentions, great inventory, and even a good effort are no guarantees of financial viability, it's easy to see why so many LHS bite the dust and so few open every year now.
mlehman If good intentions, great inventory, and even a good effort are no guarantees of financial viability, it's easy to see why so many LHS bite the dust and so few open every year now.
If good intentions, great inventory, and even a good effort are no guarantees of financial viability, it's easy to see why so many LHS bite the dust and so few open every year now.
Great point, Mike.
After someone gets done counting how many LHS close each year, count how many LHS open every year.
Rich
Alton Junction
ATLANTIC CENTRAL . . .if I was getting into this hobby today. . .
. . .if I was getting into this hobby today. . .
I thought I would give the perspective of someone who just got into the hobby today, okay last year, but close enough. First of all, I don't have the perspective of the good ol' days. I know what is available today. I am not a young one, I turn 54 this week, but I do, as Larry said, "know my way around the internet." The way I started may have been blasphemous to some -- I bought a bunch of N-scale, RTR, Kato locomotives, rolling stock, and Unitrack from MB Klein (found via a Google search) -- but it worked for me. I made an oval layout on my kitchen table, that grew to an oval layout with a yard on a 4x8 sheet of the (wrong kind of) foam, sitting on a large table. I powered up my trains and watched them go around the oval. I bought books. I subscribed to MR magazine. I found this forum and started asking and learning. I tried my hand at building structures, not from scratch, but from kits. (My wife built a really nice general store.) I bought and downloaded the AnyRail software and started designing the big layout for my office. After reading and listening to the regulars on the forum, I decided to take a step back. Rather than use Unitrack for my office layout, I started to consider using cork roadbed and flex track. Now I am in the middle of a small experimental layout (28”x48”) to try my hand at hand-laying track. I am making all sorts of mistakes, but I am learning.
Bottom line, there is a new entry ramp into the hobby. I have taken it and am thoroughly enjoying myself. It may be different than the past but it exists. Things evolve over time. I just hope there are enough new people that find an entry ramp into the hobby to keep it viable for many years in the future.
Richard
Brakie,I'm not forgetting anything of the sort. Sheldon was referring to new modelers getting into the hobby being able to look through the Walthers Catalog and plan future purchases. No newbie modeler is going to buy brass, and the only brass loco models in the Walthers Catalog were Keystone kits. I highly doubt any newbie modeler ever bought a brass loco kit to start their hobby with, at least in the post-1960 injected molded plastic era.
Your reference to PRR, UP, SP, ATSF and GN only makes my point. "Some" roads could be modeled accurately in the old days, but if you didn't want to model one of those few roads, you were out of luck unless you bought brass or scratched everything. Today, I can model the New Haven, the Providence & Worcester, or even Bay Colony with accuracy, and that's only scratching the surface of available railroads to model vs. the half dozen or so that one could model back before the P2K BL2 came out.
This is why home road modeling was so popular back then and so unpopular these days. Back then, if you wanted any trains you had to buy what was available. That meant PRR, NYC, UP, ATSF, etc. It would normally look silly to run PRR steamers with UP ones, but if you painted everything in a home road, then it didn't matter much at all because it was all unreal anyways. Today, there's so many options that one can home in on a favorite road, and the modelers have done so to a great extent (as shown by the lack of undec.'s).
Paul3No newbie modeler is going to buy brass, and the only brass loco models in the Walthers Catalog were Keystone kits. I highly doubt any newbie modeler ever bought a brass loco kit to start their hobby with, at least in the post-1960 injected molded plastic era.
If they did buy a brass kit it was because they knew they could build it simply from their day job skills.
However.
Most newbies started with Athearn or AHM train set.
It was very easy to buy a brass stream engine back then and have it custom painted for a minimal fee.A brass steam engine was just as cheap as a Penn Line,Varney or Mantua kit.
At the Columbus HO club we even had a member that modeled the Erie and had several brass Erie steam locomotives and several Hobbytown RS3 for Erie's ten hundreds.
I don't recall any freelance railroads other then mine at the club.
BRAKIEI don't recall any freelance railroads other then mine at the club.
Larry,
You must not have cracked the pages of MR much, then. Before 1970, many issues featured one. For instance, John Allen's Gorre and Daphetid and its many exposures. That's when I started reading MR, but in reading the back issues available at the library, it was clear this was a dominant theme among "serious" model railroaders.
But things were already in a state of flux. Ops were becoming popular and by the end of the 70s there was a clear trend towards prototype modeling. Maybe ops and the prototype focus are REALLY what killed the LHS? They could do pretty well keeping stock when it was pretty much the same thing available every month for the same half-dozen Class I lines. But try to start stocking all the variety that soon became available -- and that customers demanded for prototype modeling -- and it got a lot more complicated.
Mike,Me thinks you missed this part-- at the club..Indeed I was the only freelancer there with my Detroit Connecting.
A lot of us young guns started serious ops after Doug Smith's car card/waybill article in MR.
BTW..Even back then the pepper beard modelers that said ops was to much like work and not worth the hassle and you younger modelers would do well to remember its just a passing fad..
RideOnRoad ATLANTIC CENTRAL . . .if I was getting into this hobby today. . . I thought I would give the perspective of someone who just got into the hobby today, okay last year, but close enough. Bottom line, there is a new entry ramp into the hobby.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL
. . .if I was getting into this hobby today. . . I thought I would give the perspective of someone who just got into the hobby today, okay last year, but close enough.
I thought I would give the perspective of someone who just got into the hobby today, okay last year, but close enough.
Bottom line, there is a new entry ramp into the hobby.
BRAKIEMike,Me thinks you missed this part-- at the club..Indeed I was the only freelancer there with my Detroit Connecting.
OK, at the club...which leads me to another victim...Who killed the club?
I think it's deeply related to the question Shedlon originally raised about the fading away of LHS and what that means for new folks. First, if clubs were both generally healthy and numerous, it could address many of the problems of getting new folks into the hobby
I've always wanted to join a club with a decent sized operating layout - or at least has plans for one. Even now that I have that at home, I'd still like to do that. There's something different about clubs in the way they need to work together and cooperate, but they can accomplish some wondrous things. I've seen the pics, just led the wayward life of a mil brat and never was in one place to really do that. Now that I'm in one place, the few "clubs" struggle with personalities and really don't aspire to much beyond setting up modules a few times a year, so really haven't tempted me.
In addition to all the ills related here that are said to drive new people away, clubs struggle with things like those "personalities," the fact that Americans tend to join anything less and less (read "Bowling Alone") because they have some sort of bizarre fear of collectivism, the hassles of being a property owner (BTDT for other non-profits and know where a great space for a MRR club could be had, but don't know enough people interested), the taxes and funding needed to maintain a space, and a generally more mobile and life-disrupted workforce that less and less has the time and funds for leisure time pursuits that don't involve some form of glass-screened intermediary to a virtual world of some sort.
In many areas, there used to be an "ecology of model railroading" where there were three poles that folks could pick and choose from to get involved or associate in whatever way: the LHS, clubs, and home layouts. This wasn't everywhere or the same mix everywhere, but there were usually a variety of venues to get involved.
We're pretty much down to home layouts in most places. Nothing wrong with that. I've got one and love it. But what about all those who don't or can't right now? Unless they know me somehow, I'm unlikely to meet them unless they happen to decide to join the NMRA, where some things definitely click if you're new, because we make people feel welcome -- it's our mission. But that's here and there and almost random. Some youngster or even middle-aged fellow with a car to get around in is still going to have a hard time finding our small group outside of that.
That is what I think is at the root of many of our problems as a hobby. Whether NMRA or not, we need to be more accessible, sort like the internet of hobbies, or we're fated to slowly fade away. And two of the more important factors in that during the growth years of the hobby are now fading fast, if not already gone in many areas. As individual hobbyists, we're reduced to being just consumers. The hobby itself, the best part, sorta happens once in awhile if we're lucky. We're otherwise reduced to whining about prices being too high or quality too low, but we're pretty much stuck stewing in our own juices -- except for forums like this. The forums do serve a purpose, but they really aren't a replacment for the fading institutions that served as the farm teams of model railroading.
Personally, I think we discuss the LHS too much and there is little we can do about that anyway unless we have the to do one ourselves. It might actually be more useful to far more frequently discuss the person-to-person sort of relationships that are really the fabric of this hobby -- and try to recapture in some new form what was good about institutions that were once effective at bringing in new folks, but which all too rarely find traction anymore.
mlehmanWho killed the club?
Mike,First things first..The Columbus HO club is still going strong and I believe its the oldest club in Ohio followed by the Marion club.The Columbus club is at least 70 years old.
Who killed the club? Well,that will be a topic in its self.I do know two clubs that self destruct years ago.
As far as clubs there are 5 HO clubs within a 30 mile radius of me,Mansfield,Galion,Marion,Shelby and of course Bucyrus.There is at least 2 live stream groups and a G Scale club-maybe two.
There is another HO club near Bellevue and there's one in Sandusky.
As far as topics about LHS..Let's face the cold facts a lot of hobby shop owners retired due to age or the owner has failing health..
As I mention before a lot of teenagers ask deep questions about the hobby and DCC during the week of the county fair..
Could this be because of you tube surfing?
Every year during county fair at least two or three kids will ask to run their engine-usually a high end DCC/Sound equipped locomotive.
-E-C-Mills Thanks for that ROR. Still wondering: what made you decide to get into model railroading? Have you always liked trains? machines? making things?
Thanks for that ROR. Still wondering: what made you decide to get into model railroading? Have you always liked trains? machines? making things?
That's the odd thing about all of this. I didn't have a real interest in model trains up until about 18 months ago. I had an electric train of some sort when I was a kid and have bought my kids battery-operated toy trains to use around the Christmas tree. As for making things, the last model I made was a radio-controlled glider when I was in high school. The catalyst for getting started was a trip to the Model Railroad Museum in Balboa Park in San Diego. I had a a couple of hours to kill before flight home and the guys I was working with told me to check out the museum. A month later, I bought my wife with me and we were hooked, me with the trains and her with the scenery. We decided it could be a shared interest for a couple of empty nesters. The folks at the musuem recommended Kato locomotives, Unitrack, and n-scale, and I listened to them.
Hmm interesting. Yeah, been to the LA Mesa (I think?) layout years ago, pretty cool. Have you been down to the new Mckormick RR park layout building in Scottsdale? Its nice.
So was there difficulty in securing the model railroad supplies you needed? Did you feel any frustration in planning? Or is the internet a big ginormous store?
Bonus your wife is getting into MRRing too.
after reading, and reading, and debating on whether or not I was going to get involved in this thread I figured I might as well.
As a young person, whom does utilize both Video games and Model railroading as hobbies. My only question is why play the blame game, games are easier to use and quicker to be succesful in. Whereas model railroading takes time and money, Since I started modeling in 2012 I've stopped buying videogames and may not buy many more seeing as how my 2 gaming systems are slowly becoming obsolete. My trains on the other hand are just now gaining more involvement from myself and a bit more attention from my family and friends(around my age 19). I've got a coworker curious about N scale, all I did was talk about it. When I wanted to start modeling along the lines of the stuff I constantly saw from MR when I checked out the magazines, I started researching what would be better HO or N. since space was a constraint I went with N, and kept collecting stuff until a couple months later M.C. Fujiwara's 2x4 N scale layout articles came out. a couple months later there was a 2 x 4 layout that I made, other than the flaws and rookie mistakes I was pretty proud of it. I like to game and work/play with model trains, it's like a finely tuned machine. currently I play about an hour or two every couple days, but once I get a layout figured out and set up I'll definitely be spending more time there.
People need to be able to make these decisions on their own, sure a small nudge doesn't hurt but try not to preach and push.
Some of the threads on this forum that claim the hobby soon come to a demise, and that young people have to join or blames them for this or that alienates me. While I'm aware thats not the intent of the threads it does often come across that way.
My only beef with manufacturers are the lack of locomotives, rolling stock, and decals. Why those things? The SP&S is an under produced road, sure the fans of the road may not be big compared to the UP or Pennsy crowd but we're there nonetheless. A fellow N scaler on a different forum once called it "the modelers road," for those whom wish to ponder what that means I'll leave you to it.
SP&S modeler, 1960's give or take a decade or two for some equipment.
http://www.youtube.com/user/SGTDUPREY?feature=guide
Gary DuPrey
N scale model railroader
Mike L,
At no point in this discussion, or any other discussion did I suggest that opening a model train store of any size would be an investment that would meet with the ROI standards of some Wall St bean counter.
Consider this, in all of Model Railroading, there is only one publicly traded company - Bachmann's parent Kader, on the Chinese Stock Exchange. We don't know how profitable the manufacturers are, let alone any of the retailers. Since they are all privately held, many could be "labors of love", or at least not profitable in the modern ROI model.
I would bet if meeting a modern ROI model was a requirement to be in the model train business, we would not have any model trains to buy and no one would bother to sell them to us.
But in the world of small privately held businesses, where I have spent most of my working life, business owners are often more about independence and personal satisfaction then about some rigid banking measurement of a "good investment".
As long a profit is made, and that profit pays the bills and provides a reasonable life style, and provides personal satisfaction, that is all that counts.
I have been self employed most of my life, mostly in occupations that are very "small scale", and my wife and I do not always follow the "popular" methods in our various investments and businesses, yet we live in a paid for house, drive paid for cars, sit on paid for furniture and don't have to worry about much money wise. But lots of people would tell, and have told us we are "doing it all wrong".
Model train/hobby businesses are much the same based on my conversations with shop owners, owners of distributors, and other industry leaders I have met and known over my years associated with the hobby industry.
Yes, your earlier comment is a very old hobby shop owner joke - "How do you make a small fortune in the hobby business? - Start with a large one". I knew that line when I was 16, I'm 57.
But yet people still do it, Ted Klein's business marches on, Caboose hobbies and Train World are still in business, and Star Hobby had lots of trains on the shelf last month when I was in there - BUT, they all saw the same thing we did back in 1980 - changes coming that required "go big or go home". I have no real concern for people who fail at business. I have had businesses fail, or I decided it was not the right situation for me - I picked myself up and made the next one work.
My original post was not about hobby shops closing, or where the trains are made, or how much they cost, or kits vs RTR, even if all those issues are related to this in some way. My original post was about the simple fact that at any given moment the products available in the supply chain are often disconnected from each other and do not support each or incourage the sale of each other - especially for someone who might be just starting.
And I concede and agree that if you consider the whole of the secondary market, maybe my concern is not totally valid.
I agree with the comments from others that my original premise is colored by my habits - I don't buy stuff then sell it off later, I don't buy much "already been played with", I don't jump from hobby to hobby. And maybe most importantly, one of my "life rules" goes like this - I use to be well rounded until I figured out what I really liked.
Fairly early on in my 46 year run in this hobby I pretty much decided what my personal modeling goals were - they have not changed measurably since then. I still enjoy the same kind of modeling I enjoyed in 1975, or 1995, with only the smallest revisons to my "goal list". Maybe that makes me unusual, I don't know or care.
I like to built kits, but I have no axe to grind about that, I buy lots of RTR too. Some of it is "high end", some is Athearn Ready to Roll and Bachmann Silver Series. Some of the kits are shake the box, some are complex craftsman kits - all are welcome if the resulting model suits me.
But my offer stands, someone puts up the money, I could run a train store you would want to shop in, and I could make money doing it.
ATLANTIC CENTRALMike L, At no point in this discussion, or any other discussion did I suggest that opening a model train store of any size would be an investment that would meet with the ROI standards of some Wall St bean counter.
Sheldon,
True, but it is the issue that drives many of these "economic" discussions. And apparently meeting the ROI standards of your local banker or a buyer's CPA is a problem. Thus the closing of many LHS on retirement. It's not the sort of sensible investment outsiders are willing to sign off on. That should say a lot to those always telling us how prices should be lower, etc, etc.
ATLANTIC CENTRALmany could be "labors of love", or at least not profitable in the modern ROI model. I would bet if meeting a modern ROI model was a requirement to be in the model train business, we would not have any model trains to buy and no one would bother to sell them to us.
That could very well be true, in fact, I don't doubt it at all. No real windfall profits, just some good years -- and plenty of slow ones.
ATLANTIC CENTRALAs long a profit is made, and that profit pays the bills and provides a reasonable life style, and provides personal satisfaction, that is all that counts.
Yeah, so long as it's your money, you can do whatever you feel is appropriate, even if it doesn't always make strict business sense in the MBA fashion. I've got no problem with this sort of thinking, having worked in the non-profit sector. So long as there's moeny in the checking account to pay those money bills, etc, you have a lot of flexibility.
ATLANTIC CENTRALBut yet people still do it, Ted Klein's business marches on, Caboose hobbies and Train World are still in business, and Star Hobby had lots of trains on the shelf last month when I was in there - BUT, they all saw the same thing we did back in 1980 - changes coming that required "go big or go home".
And if we look at LHS closings for other then retirement, we can see just how tough a biz it is to be in.
ATLANTIC CENTRALMy original post was about the simple fact that at any given moment the products available in the supply chain are often disconnected from each other and do not support each or incourage the sale of each other - especially for someone who might be just starting.
I guess I don't see a whole heck of a lot of difference in 40+ years myself. Same thing back then -- or maybe different things but the Walthers catalog has always been sort of a "wishbook" and it's not Walthers fault really, in most cases. It a matter of vendors unable to supply product for whatever reason.
Maybe it's because so often they are struggling economically or failing or being sold to someone else hoping to cash in?
ATLANTIC CENTRALAnd I concede and agree that if you consider the whole of the secondary market, maybe my concern is not totally valid.
Yeah, it's can produce great stuff at a good price or junk. It's hit or miss. But in terms of locos and rolling stock, you can find just about anything -- and if you're patient, at a reasonable price and in good shape. I worry more about Atlas track being B/o-ed as a factor in people sticking with the hobby, but that's sort of a unique situation, hopefully soon to resolve.
ATLANTIC CENTRALFairly early on in my 46 year run in this hobby I pretty much decided what my personal modeling goals were - they have not changed measurably since then. I still enjoy the same kind of modeling I enjoyed in 1975, or 1995, with only the smallest revisons to my "goal list". Maybe that makes me unusual, I don't know or care.
I think it is a bit unusual. I have a pretty yea or ney approach to life myself, but it took me 20+ years to commit to narrowgauge. A lot of folks never figure out what they want, but enjoy doing it. And it definitely colors your apporach to the hobby.
ATLANTIC CENTRALBut my offer stands, someone puts up the money, I could run a train store you would want to shop in, and I could make money doing it.
Well, when it's other people's money, then ROI becomes important.