Joe,
Thanks for your comments, much appreciated
I'll simply add that we Americans tend to have a problem with the commodification of happiness. WE think if we buy or consume the right product, it will lead to happiness. Which is not to say that it can't, as it often does. When I unbox a new Blackstone loco or car, it is a thrill.
On the other hand, as your mom probably told you several times (mine did), you can't buy happiness. The relentless focus on the LHS tends to do exactly that. If there was just a place where I could stroll through the door and repeat the equivalent to unboxing that Blackstone, all would be right with my world, only a hundred times over.
Then reality bites. I can't afford the cost of a loco 100x. It really needs a layout to run on and supporting cast of rolling stock, structures and scenery. True, a lot of that gets purchased, too, but now we're starting to get into building things, which to me is where real satisfaction lies in this hobby. Much as I love my Blackstone RTR, I know I get more personal satisfaction out of building something.
With RTR, more and more that doesn't mean building equipment, but the rest of that supporting cast. In the end, we can't build everything and some things we may not be able to do at all and have to go RTR. But that's OK, if you're putting something like a layout together and certainly no shame. We do what we can and what we find satisfying.
Then there are those who simply don't have a situation where a layout is possible. That's one place among many where things like a club or active operator groups can help where a LHS really isn't the answer anyway, no matter how much you spend.
Well, enough philosophy for now, back to work, including a little railroading.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
mlehmanLet's quit blaming, expecting, or anticipating that the health of the hobby is dependent on the LHS any more than several other factors, which I argue we should be paying much more attention to. Why should some struggling businessman trying to keep the lights on be expected to carry the hobby on his back as yet another burden. Seems pretty unfair, when you think about it like that.
Finally, a voice of reason. Mike you are correct, the health of the hobby is not related to any one factor, including the LHS. Product availability has always been a consideration. I don't know how many times I searched for an Item that was "temporarily not in stock". The other side of that equation, is that if you don't have "it", you cannot sell "it'.
I'm not a collector, although I have accumulated quite a collection of unfinished kits, structures that don't fit on the layout, and locomotives that don't run. Part of this collection, was for items needed for layouts and projects long discarded, or in anticipation of my next great layout. The next generation, improved, more prototypical version of the Rs3 etc. The minute I sell it or donate it or toss it, I'll need it.......but when I move, I won't necessarily need it or have room for it. Yet i continue to accumulate "it", as I did, long before pre orders and limited quantity releases, just in case I find a use for it, while it's still available.
Joe
IRONROOSTER richhotrain Geez, I might just break down and give Sheldon the $10 million if I thought that would bring this unending thread to a halt. Rich Uh! how many more pages will that require? Paul
richhotrain Geez, I might just break down and give Sheldon the $10 million if I thought that would bring this unending thread to a halt. Rich
Geez, I might just break down and give Sheldon the $10 million if I thought that would bring this unending thread to a halt.
Rich
Uh! how many more pages will that require?
Paul
I don't know about anyone else, but I'm trying to make lemonade here. I'm actually kind of surprised no one has picked up on my effort to step back and look at how these discussions fixate on the LHS as if that is tied to the rest of the hobby like a concrete block to the leg of an inconvenient corpse. It's just not that bad, for the hobby, and I think the LHS will survive where there is enough of a market for it and knowledgable people to run one.
But haven't we really been counting on the LHS as a One-Trick Pony?
We trot it out regularly, jump it through some hoops and say, "That's all folks."
Just not true, although I think we've tended to create that reality more by talking about it in online forums than it exists in real life as the root cause of whatever "problems" one happens to see with the hobby.
In fact, I'd argue we can create a better situation by talking about the health of the hobby just as easily as we can make it worse by talking about it.
First, let me say that the health of the LHS is not unimportant. It is, I just don't want to get diverted into arguing about that as the ONLY factor in the health of model railroading. You can see that approach on display in multiple threads and, well, some folks are starting to find it boring. TYhat's not going to help the LHS either, so I suggest...
Let's quit blaming, expecting, or anticipating that the health of the hobby is dependent on the LHS any more than several other factors, which I argue we should be paying much more attention to. Why should some struggling businessman trying to keep the lights on be expected to carry the hobby on his back as yet another burden. Seems pretty unfair, when you think about it like that.
I've mentioned two areas where I think we could profitably turn some of the wasted energy of the endless LHS discussions to better use. One is what we do as individuals with the hobby. The other is what we do as local organizations, if we do anything at all.
Not everyone has a layout, but those that do might consider layout tours during nat'l Model RR Month in November. Scary? Well, we can't all pick our neighbors, but it'slike many other things in life, you never know what you can accomplish until you try. Then there's the NMRA. It's a way to connect and promote the hobby that you can join at the individual level, but also get involved with it as a group. Maybe that layout tour could be a NMRA-sponsored event and covered by the available insurance? In any case, knowing others in the hobby is a rewarding experience.
Another way I[ve seen individuals aid the hobby is online. Forums are almost old-fashioned these days, but still are a great resource as this one is. There's all kinds of social media I'm clueless about, as are many folks my age. Not knowing about that may make it sound like the hobby is fading, but I'd bet there's a lot going on us old farts don't know about. Then there's Youtube. I mentioned I don't watch much TV and that includes online, but I have seen some great videos. There's always room for more.
As for group activities, I've already mentioned the NMRA. Clubs are a bit different. Guess there are lots in Ohio, but I know that's not the case everywhere. Modular clubs are a partial answer to that, but the impermanance has its drawbacks, too. But it's a reality that many don't have a home layout and even those that do may enjoy hanging out with fellow enthusiasts. Too bad that's not an option for many, but maybe something can be done about that.
I'm sure there are more ideas out there. If we worked on keeping some of these other irons hot, it might even help the LHS.
-E-C-Mills Hmm interesting. Yeah, been to the LA Mesa (I think?) layout years ago, pretty cool. Have you been down to the new Mckormick RR park layout building in Scottsdale? Its nice. So was there difficulty in securing the model railroad supplies you needed? Did you feel any frustration in planning? Or is the internet a big ginormous store? Bonus your wife is getting into MRRing too.
Hmm interesting. Yeah, been to the LA Mesa (I think?) layout years ago, pretty cool. Have you been down to the new Mckormick RR park layout building in Scottsdale? Its nice.
So was there difficulty in securing the model railroad supplies you needed? Did you feel any frustration in planning? Or is the internet a big ginormous store?
Bonus your wife is getting into MRRing too.
(It is interesting to have a second discussion in the midst of the furor of the primary discussion in this thread.)
We have been to the McCormick RR Park a couple of times. The layout in there is pretty impressive. It is nice to have 10,000 square feet available for three layouts.
The only difficulty in securing the supplies I have needed was when I moved from Unitrack to flextrack. Everyone talked about using Atlas track and, as everyone knows, code 55 track is scarce, to say the least. Since I wasn't vested in Atlas, I shifted to Peco and so far, so good. The frustration I have had with planning was when I tried to plan my office layout using Unitrack. Being limited in the available curves and straight lengths (and you can cut to fit) was the motivation to try flextrack. So far, I have been able to get everything I have needed from the Ginormous Store.
And finally, it is really cool that my wife is enjoying the hobby. The general store she made is really impressive. (The quarter is in the picture for scale.)
Richard
Alton Junction
BRAKIEBRAKIE wrote the following post 29 minutes ago: Burlington Northern #24 I've stopped buying videogames and may not buy many more seeing as how my 2 gaming systems are slowly becoming obsolete. My trains on the other hand are just now gaining more involvement from myself and a bit more attention from my family and friends(around my age 19). Gary,I still play PS1/2 Final Fantasy games even though my PS2 is a dinosaur but,so is a lot of my cars and locomotives according to some my old Atlas and BB locomotives and my BB and MDC cars are not up to today's so called modeling "standards". Who cares? I've having fun and that's the main thing. ----------------------------------------------------------------- Some of the threads on this forum that claim the hobby soon come to a demise, and that young people have to join or blames them for this or that alienates me. While I'm aware thats not the intent of the threads it does often come across that way. ---------------------------------------------------------------- I too have notice that and will never agree that young people are not interested in the hobby..I have notice teenagers at train shows,trackside and in hobby shops.
Gary,I still play PS1/2 Final Fantasy games even though my PS2 is a dinosaur but,so is a lot of my cars and locomotives according to some my old Atlas and BB locomotives and my BB and MDC cars are not up to today's so called modeling "standards". Who cares? I've having fun and that's the main thing. ----------------------------------------------------------------- Some of the threads on this forum that claim the hobby soon come to a demise, and that young people have to join or blames them for this or that alienates me. While I'm aware thats not the intent of the threads it does often come across that way. ---------------------------------------------------------------- I too have notice that and will never agree that young people are not interested in the hobby..I have notice teenagers at train shows,trackside and in hobby shops.
Just in case my comment about the glass-mediated virtual reality many people take to nowadays was taken the wrong way, I specifically did not use it in reference to teenagers -- or to gaming for that matter, either....
BN#24 and Larry,
I don't see anything wrong with gaming, per se. In fact, my comment applies to just about any generation able to read this right now. It's not about gaming really at all, either. Because my concern about how that affects our hobby extends well into the golden years and just plain ol' TV is as big or bigger a factor than gaming. I pretty much stopped watching TV in the early 70s when my dad was stationed overseas and us with him. The only show I watch regularly is Saturday Night Live -- oh, and Downtown Abbey when it's in season.
Then there is the Wide Wolrd of the Internet. If I could just give this up, imagine waht I could get done?
That time goes to the layout (and other things, too). It's one way I tend to get a lot done on a semi-regular basis.
One thing I think we make a mistake about is thinking that all this talk of getting new folks in the hobby is about kids anyway. Even the hard-core rails tend to fall away, if they were interested in the first place that young, and get interested in college, girls, jobs, girls, cars, girls, , girls, TV, girls, games, girls, women...well, you get my point. Then we settle down and get interested in railroading again.
And as another commenter noted, many of us aren't even interested in the hobby until middle age, but suddenly encounter it and find we're entranced. Larry's outreach work at the county fair works just as well for older folks, who may not be so immediately open about their interest as teens are, but who nonetheless may turn out to find it interesting.
In fact, I'd say we probably worry too much about getting young folks into the hobby and probably not enough about the adults who might enter if given encouragement. Which is not to say we shouldn't help kids who are interested, just that many of us never go through that phase of loving the hobby and only do so when many of the other important things in life are squared away and who then want something interesting to do.
We really shouldn't obsess about one age group to the deficit of others in trying to recruit interest in model railroading. People have very different reasons and timing for when the join the hobby. It's all good, because interest in model railroading is a great leveler across generations. Talk to anyone, any age, who shares the same interest and you'll find it rewarding.
True, but it is the issue that drives many of these "economic" discussions. And apparently meeting the ROI standards of your local banker or a buyer's CPA is a problem. Thus the closing of many LHS on retirement. It's not the sort of sensible investment outsiders are willing to sign off on. That should say a lot to those always telling us how prices should be lower, etc, etc.
And yet relative to gross profit margins, prices were higher "back in the day" because most all business owners saw inventory as a long term investment, not as a liability. There was some discounting, but the "closeout sale" was non existant.
Mike, you are correct, if it is your money, you can do what you want. I can tell you in most cases people in the hobby business are working on their own money, or on the money private investors who understand the business, not on money from the general "capital pool".
Off to work now,
Sheldon
PS - Back in the day, the big inventory shops stock piled product when it was available to offset production variables - My proposed super store would be no different today.
Burlington Northern #24I've stopped buying videogames and may not buy many more seeing as how my 2 gaming systems are slowly becoming obsolete. My trains on the other hand are just now gaining more involvement from myself and a bit more attention from my family and friends(around my age 19).
Gary,I still play PS1/2 Final Fantasy games even though my PS2 is a dinosaur but,so is a lot of my cars and locomotives according to some my old Atlas and BB locomotives and my BB and MDC cars are not up to today's so called modeling "standards".
Who cares? I've having fun and that's the main thing.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Some of the threads on this forum that claim the hobby soon come to a demise, and that young people have to join or blames them for this or that alienates me. While I'm aware thats not the intent of the threads it does often come across that way.
----------------------------------------------------------------
I too have notice that and will never agree that young people are not interested in the hobby..I have notice teenagers at train shows,trackside and in hobby shops.
We have several youth members at the Bucyrus club.Again during the fair a lot of young people ask serious questions about the hobby and some even asked the best way to get started..I have had young 30 something mothers say their husband and son has a train set up on a piece of plywood or their son or daughter is crazy about trains.I have seen kids make 3 or 4 trips around the layout and return later to make more trips around the layout.
I've always been a friendly cuss and more then willing to talk about the hobby during the county fair or when ever the subject comes up.
Here's a thing that happen to me..
I was having breakfast at McDonalds when this 30 something lady approach (hubby and son was in a booth) and said "Sir,don't you go to the train club at the fairground? I replied yes and she then asked directions to the hobby shop in Mansfield.
That wasn't the first time that has happen since my mugg isn't hard to forget.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
ATLANTIC CENTRALMike L, At no point in this discussion, or any other discussion did I suggest that opening a model train store of any size would be an investment that would meet with the ROI standards of some Wall St bean counter.
Sheldon,
ATLANTIC CENTRALmany could be "labors of love", or at least not profitable in the modern ROI model. I would bet if meeting a modern ROI model was a requirement to be in the model train business, we would not have any model trains to buy and no one would bother to sell them to us.
That could very well be true, in fact, I don't doubt it at all. No real windfall profits, just some good years -- and plenty of slow ones.
ATLANTIC CENTRALAs long a profit is made, and that profit pays the bills and provides a reasonable life style, and provides personal satisfaction, that is all that counts.
Yeah, so long as it's your money, you can do whatever you feel is appropriate, even if it doesn't always make strict business sense in the MBA fashion. I've got no problem with this sort of thinking, having worked in the non-profit sector. So long as there's moeny in the checking account to pay those money bills, etc, you have a lot of flexibility.
ATLANTIC CENTRALBut yet people still do it, Ted Klein's business marches on, Caboose hobbies and Train World are still in business, and Star Hobby had lots of trains on the shelf last month when I was in there - BUT, they all saw the same thing we did back in 1980 - changes coming that required "go big or go home".
And if we look at LHS closings for other then retirement, we can see just how tough a biz it is to be in.
ATLANTIC CENTRALMy original post was about the simple fact that at any given moment the products available in the supply chain are often disconnected from each other and do not support each or incourage the sale of each other - especially for someone who might be just starting.
I guess I don't see a whole heck of a lot of difference in 40+ years myself. Same thing back then -- or maybe different things but the Walthers catalog has always been sort of a "wishbook" and it's not Walthers fault really, in most cases. It a matter of vendors unable to supply product for whatever reason.
Maybe it's because so often they are struggling economically or failing or being sold to someone else hoping to cash in?
ATLANTIC CENTRALAnd I concede and agree that if you consider the whole of the secondary market, maybe my concern is not totally valid.
Yeah, it's can produce great stuff at a good price or junk. It's hit or miss. But in terms of locos and rolling stock, you can find just about anything -- and if you're patient, at a reasonable price and in good shape. I worry more about Atlas track being B/o-ed as a factor in people sticking with the hobby, but that's sort of a unique situation, hopefully soon to resolve.
ATLANTIC CENTRALFairly early on in my 46 year run in this hobby I pretty much decided what my personal modeling goals were - they have not changed measurably since then. I still enjoy the same kind of modeling I enjoyed in 1975, or 1995, with only the smallest revisons to my "goal list". Maybe that makes me unusual, I don't know or care.
I think it is a bit unusual. I have a pretty yea or ney approach to life myself, but it took me 20+ years to commit to narrowgauge. A lot of folks never figure out what they want, but enjoy doing it. And it definitely colors your apporach to the hobby.
ATLANTIC CENTRALBut my offer stands, someone puts up the money, I could run a train store you would want to shop in, and I could make money doing it.
Well, when it's other people's money, then ROI becomes important.
Mike L,
At no point in this discussion, or any other discussion did I suggest that opening a model train store of any size would be an investment that would meet with the ROI standards of some Wall St bean counter.
Consider this, in all of Model Railroading, there is only one publicly traded company - Bachmann's parent Kader, on the Chinese Stock Exchange. We don't know how profitable the manufacturers are, let alone any of the retailers. Since they are all privately held, many could be "labors of love", or at least not profitable in the modern ROI model.
I would bet if meeting a modern ROI model was a requirement to be in the model train business, we would not have any model trains to buy and no one would bother to sell them to us.
But in the world of small privately held businesses, where I have spent most of my working life, business owners are often more about independence and personal satisfaction then about some rigid banking measurement of a "good investment".
As long a profit is made, and that profit pays the bills and provides a reasonable life style, and provides personal satisfaction, that is all that counts.
I have been self employed most of my life, mostly in occupations that are very "small scale", and my wife and I do not always follow the "popular" methods in our various investments and businesses, yet we live in a paid for house, drive paid for cars, sit on paid for furniture and don't have to worry about much money wise. But lots of people would tell, and have told us we are "doing it all wrong".
Model train/hobby businesses are much the same based on my conversations with shop owners, owners of distributors, and other industry leaders I have met and known over my years associated with the hobby industry.
Yes, your earlier comment is a very old hobby shop owner joke - "How do you make a small fortune in the hobby business? - Start with a large one". I knew that line when I was 16, I'm 57.
But yet people still do it, Ted Klein's business marches on, Caboose hobbies and Train World are still in business, and Star Hobby had lots of trains on the shelf last month when I was in there - BUT, they all saw the same thing we did back in 1980 - changes coming that required "go big or go home". I have no real concern for people who fail at business. I have had businesses fail, or I decided it was not the right situation for me - I picked myself up and made the next one work.
My original post was not about hobby shops closing, or where the trains are made, or how much they cost, or kits vs RTR, even if all those issues are related to this in some way. My original post was about the simple fact that at any given moment the products available in the supply chain are often disconnected from each other and do not support each or incourage the sale of each other - especially for someone who might be just starting.
And I concede and agree that if you consider the whole of the secondary market, maybe my concern is not totally valid.
I agree with the comments from others that my original premise is colored by my habits - I don't buy stuff then sell it off later, I don't buy much "already been played with", I don't jump from hobby to hobby. And maybe most importantly, one of my "life rules" goes like this - I use to be well rounded until I figured out what I really liked.
Fairly early on in my 46 year run in this hobby I pretty much decided what my personal modeling goals were - they have not changed measurably since then. I still enjoy the same kind of modeling I enjoyed in 1975, or 1995, with only the smallest revisons to my "goal list". Maybe that makes me unusual, I don't know or care.
I like to built kits, but I have no axe to grind about that, I buy lots of RTR too. Some of it is "high end", some is Athearn Ready to Roll and Bachmann Silver Series. Some of the kits are shake the box, some are complex craftsman kits - all are welcome if the resulting model suits me.
But my offer stands, someone puts up the money, I could run a train store you would want to shop in, and I could make money doing it.
after reading, and reading, and debating on whether or not I was going to get involved in this thread I figured I might as well.
As a young person, whom does utilize both Video games and Model railroading as hobbies. My only question is why play the blame game, games are easier to use and quicker to be succesful in. Whereas model railroading takes time and money, Since I started modeling in 2012 I've stopped buying videogames and may not buy many more seeing as how my 2 gaming systems are slowly becoming obsolete. My trains on the other hand are just now gaining more involvement from myself and a bit more attention from my family and friends(around my age 19). I've got a coworker curious about N scale, all I did was talk about it. When I wanted to start modeling along the lines of the stuff I constantly saw from MR when I checked out the magazines, I started researching what would be better HO or N. since space was a constraint I went with N, and kept collecting stuff until a couple months later M.C. Fujiwara's 2x4 N scale layout articles came out. a couple months later there was a 2 x 4 layout that I made, other than the flaws and rookie mistakes I was pretty proud of it. I like to game and work/play with model trains, it's like a finely tuned machine. currently I play about an hour or two every couple days, but once I get a layout figured out and set up I'll definitely be spending more time there.
People need to be able to make these decisions on their own, sure a small nudge doesn't hurt but try not to preach and push.
My only beef with manufacturers are the lack of locomotives, rolling stock, and decals. Why those things? The SP&S is an under produced road, sure the fans of the road may not be big compared to the UP or Pennsy crowd but we're there nonetheless. A fellow N scaler on a different forum once called it "the modelers road," for those whom wish to ponder what that means I'll leave you to it.
SP&S modeler, 1960's give or take a decade or two for some equipment.
http://www.youtube.com/user/SGTDUPREY?feature=guide
Gary DuPrey
N scale model railroader
-E-C-Mills Thanks for that ROR. Still wondering: what made you decide to get into model railroading? Have you always liked trains? machines? making things?
Thanks for that ROR. Still wondering: what made you decide to get into model railroading? Have you always liked trains? machines? making things?
That's the odd thing about all of this. I didn't have a real interest in model trains up until about 18 months ago. I had an electric train of some sort when I was a kid and have bought my kids battery-operated toy trains to use around the Christmas tree. As for making things, the last model I made was a radio-controlled glider when I was in high school. The catalyst for getting started was a trip to the Model Railroad Museum in Balboa Park in San Diego. I had a a couple of hours to kill before flight home and the guys I was working with told me to check out the museum. A month later, I bought my wife with me and we were hooked, me with the trains and her with the scenery. We decided it could be a shared interest for a couple of empty nesters. The folks at the musuem recommended Kato locomotives, Unitrack, and n-scale, and I listened to them.
mlehmanWho killed the club?
Mike,First things first..The Columbus HO club is still going strong and I believe its the oldest club in Ohio followed by the Marion club.The Columbus club is at least 70 years old.
Who killed the club? Well,that will be a topic in its self.I do know two clubs that self destruct years ago.
As far as clubs there are 5 HO clubs within a 30 mile radius of me,Mansfield,Galion,Marion,Shelby and of course Bucyrus.There is at least 2 live stream groups and a G Scale club-maybe two.
There is another HO club near Bellevue and there's one in Sandusky.
As far as topics about LHS..Let's face the cold facts a lot of hobby shop owners retired due to age or the owner has failing health..
As I mention before a lot of teenagers ask deep questions about the hobby and DCC during the week of the county fair..
Could this be because of you tube surfing?
Every year during county fair at least two or three kids will ask to run their engine-usually a high end DCC/Sound equipped locomotive.
BRAKIEMike,Me thinks you missed this part-- at the club..Indeed I was the only freelancer there with my Detroit Connecting.
OK, at the club...which leads me to another victim...Who killed the club?
I think it's deeply related to the question Shedlon originally raised about the fading away of LHS and what that means for new folks. First, if clubs were both generally healthy and numerous, it could address many of the problems of getting new folks into the hobby
I've always wanted to join a club with a decent sized operating layout - or at least has plans for one. Even now that I have that at home, I'd still like to do that. There's something different about clubs in the way they need to work together and cooperate, but they can accomplish some wondrous things. I've seen the pics, just led the wayward life of a mil brat and never was in one place to really do that. Now that I'm in one place, the few "clubs" struggle with personalities and really don't aspire to much beyond setting up modules a few times a year, so really haven't tempted me.
In addition to all the ills related here that are said to drive new people away, clubs struggle with things like those "personalities," the fact that Americans tend to join anything less and less (read "Bowling Alone") because they have some sort of bizarre fear of collectivism, the hassles of being a property owner (BTDT for other non-profits and know where a great space for a MRR club could be had, but don't know enough people interested), the taxes and funding needed to maintain a space, and a generally more mobile and life-disrupted workforce that less and less has the time and funds for leisure time pursuits that don't involve some form of glass-screened intermediary to a virtual world of some sort.
In many areas, there used to be an "ecology of model railroading" where there were three poles that folks could pick and choose from to get involved or associate in whatever way: the LHS, clubs, and home layouts. This wasn't everywhere or the same mix everywhere, but there were usually a variety of venues to get involved.
We're pretty much down to home layouts in most places. Nothing wrong with that. I've got one and love it. But what about all those who don't or can't right now? Unless they know me somehow, I'm unlikely to meet them unless they happen to decide to join the NMRA, where some things definitely click if you're new, because we make people feel welcome -- it's our mission. But that's here and there and almost random. Some youngster or even middle-aged fellow with a car to get around in is still going to have a hard time finding our small group outside of that.
That is what I think is at the root of many of our problems as a hobby. Whether NMRA or not, we need to be more accessible, sort like the internet of hobbies, or we're fated to slowly fade away. And two of the more important factors in that during the growth years of the hobby are now fading fast, if not already gone in many areas. As individual hobbyists, we're reduced to being just consumers. The hobby itself, the best part, sorta happens once in awhile if we're lucky. We're otherwise reduced to whining about prices being too high or quality too low, but we're pretty much stuck stewing in our own juices -- except for forums like this. The forums do serve a purpose, but they really aren't a replacment for the fading institutions that served as the farm teams of model railroading.
Personally, I think we discuss the LHS too much and there is little we can do about that anyway unless we have the to do one ourselves. It might actually be more useful to far more frequently discuss the person-to-person sort of relationships that are really the fabric of this hobby -- and try to recapture in some new form what was good about institutions that were once effective at bringing in new folks, but which all too rarely find traction anymore.
RideOnRoad ATLANTIC CENTRAL . . .if I was getting into this hobby today. . . I thought I would give the perspective of someone who just got into the hobby today, okay last year, but close enough. Bottom line, there is a new entry ramp into the hobby.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL
. . .if I was getting into this hobby today. . . I thought I would give the perspective of someone who just got into the hobby today, okay last year, but close enough.
. . .if I was getting into this hobby today. . .
I thought I would give the perspective of someone who just got into the hobby today, okay last year, but close enough.
Bottom line, there is a new entry ramp into the hobby.
Mike,Me thinks you missed this part-- at the club..Indeed I was the only freelancer there with my Detroit Connecting.
A lot of us young guns started serious ops after Doug Smith's car card/waybill article in MR.
BTW..Even back then the pepper beard modelers that said ops was to much like work and not worth the hassle and you younger modelers would do well to remember its just a passing fad..
BRAKIEI don't recall any freelance railroads other then mine at the club.
Larry,
You must not have cracked the pages of MR much, then. Before 1970, many issues featured one. For instance, John Allen's Gorre and Daphetid and its many exposures. That's when I started reading MR, but in reading the back issues available at the library, it was clear this was a dominant theme among "serious" model railroaders.
But things were already in a state of flux. Ops were becoming popular and by the end of the 70s there was a clear trend towards prototype modeling. Maybe ops and the prototype focus are REALLY what killed the LHS? They could do pretty well keeping stock when it was pretty much the same thing available every month for the same half-dozen Class I lines. But try to start stocking all the variety that soon became available -- and that customers demanded for prototype modeling -- and it got a lot more complicated.
Paul3No newbie modeler is going to buy brass, and the only brass loco models in the Walthers Catalog were Keystone kits. I highly doubt any newbie modeler ever bought a brass loco kit to start their hobby with, at least in the post-1960 injected molded plastic era.
If they did buy a brass kit it was because they knew they could build it simply from their day job skills.
However.
Most newbies started with Athearn or AHM train set.
It was very easy to buy a brass stream engine back then and have it custom painted for a minimal fee.A brass steam engine was just as cheap as a Penn Line,Varney or Mantua kit.
At the Columbus HO club we even had a member that modeled the Erie and had several brass Erie steam locomotives and several Hobbytown RS3 for Erie's ten hundreds.
I don't recall any freelance railroads other then mine at the club.
Brakie,I'm not forgetting anything of the sort. Sheldon was referring to new modelers getting into the hobby being able to look through the Walthers Catalog and plan future purchases. No newbie modeler is going to buy brass, and the only brass loco models in the Walthers Catalog were Keystone kits. I highly doubt any newbie modeler ever bought a brass loco kit to start their hobby with, at least in the post-1960 injected molded plastic era.
Your reference to PRR, UP, SP, ATSF and GN only makes my point. "Some" roads could be modeled accurately in the old days, but if you didn't want to model one of those few roads, you were out of luck unless you bought brass or scratched everything. Today, I can model the New Haven, the Providence & Worcester, or even Bay Colony with accuracy, and that's only scratching the surface of available railroads to model vs. the half dozen or so that one could model back before the P2K BL2 came out.
This is why home road modeling was so popular back then and so unpopular these days. Back then, if you wanted any trains you had to buy what was available. That meant PRR, NYC, UP, ATSF, etc. It would normally look silly to run PRR steamers with UP ones, but if you painted everything in a home road, then it didn't matter much at all because it was all unreal anyways. Today, there's so many options that one can home in on a favorite road, and the modelers have done so to a great extent (as shown by the lack of undec.'s).
Paul A. Cutler III
ATLANTIC CENTRAL . . .if I was getting into this hobby today. . .
I thought I would give the perspective of someone who just got into the hobby today, okay last year, but close enough. First of all, I don't have the perspective of the good ol' days. I know what is available today. I am not a young one, I turn 54 this week, but I do, as Larry said, "know my way around the internet." The way I started may have been blasphemous to some -- I bought a bunch of N-scale, RTR, Kato locomotives, rolling stock, and Unitrack from MB Klein (found via a Google search) -- but it worked for me. I made an oval layout on my kitchen table, that grew to an oval layout with a yard on a 4x8 sheet of the (wrong kind of) foam, sitting on a large table. I powered up my trains and watched them go around the oval. I bought books. I subscribed to MR magazine. I found this forum and started asking and learning. I tried my hand at building structures, not from scratch, but from kits. (My wife built a really nice general store.) I bought and downloaded the AnyRail software and started designing the big layout for my office. After reading and listening to the regulars on the forum, I decided to take a step back. Rather than use Unitrack for my office layout, I started to consider using cork roadbed and flex track. Now I am in the middle of a small experimental layout (28”x48”) to try my hand at hand-laying track. I am making all sorts of mistakes, but I am learning.
Bottom line, there is a new entry ramp into the hobby. I have taken it and am thoroughly enjoying myself. It may be different than the past but it exists. Things evolve over time. I just hope there are enough new people that find an entry ramp into the hobby to keep it viable for many years in the future.
mlehman If good intentions, great inventory, and even a good effort are no guarantees of financial viability, it's easy to see why so many LHS bite the dust and so few open every year now.
If good intentions, great inventory, and even a good effort are no guarantees of financial viability, it's easy to see why so many LHS bite the dust and so few open every year now.
Great point, Mike.
After someone gets done counting how many LHS close each year, count how many LHS open every year.
ATLANTIC CENTRALMike L, actually lots of hobby shops/train stores were very successful with that old business model, some still are today. As I point out every time one closes, often they close not for money reasons, but because the owner has no one to take over at retirement. Yes, it is a tough business today, and being "small" surely does not really work like it did in 1965, but many of the big guys with big inventories are doing well. And I think it could be done even better.
I think the past tense tends to apply here, Sheldon. In my hearts of hearts, I wish it were otherwise, but the bottom line tells the story. If it were truly and generally a profitable business model, then those retiring would entertain multiple offers. That's simply not the case. While it's not a completely dead-end business model -- if I won the lottery, I'd be looking for a location to start one myself -- it's still a good way to turn a small fortune into a smaller one.
Yes, big guys with big inventories do well, but that's in large part due to them being the remaining winners in a process that otherwise creates far more losers than winners. People have to be comfortable with the idea that it's more labor of love than viable business model -- as they will likely be disappointed in the finamcial return.
When you have a large inventory, you also are sitting on a large pile of capital. Either it turns over quickly or the bottom line turns red quickly. Yes, there are a few who succeed in doing that and it seems as much a matter of luck and good location as it is business acumen.
My own primary supplier is a former LHS, had a great shop stocked in exactly the manner you discuss on the fringes of a major urban area -- until about 5 or 6 years ago, when the cost of rent, utilies, etc finally brought that era to a close. He now does mail order only, plus shows within a reasonable distance. His service is excellent, his prices fair (at least 20% off), and he's a pleasant fellow to work with. Despite major online retailers, their pricing and stock, he's always close if not the same in terms of his pricing, so rarely do I purchase elsewhere, even to save a few bucks on a specific item.
The LHS a great model for modellers, so I understand the nostalgia for it, but an iffy business nowadays. If good intentions, great inventory, and even a good effort are no guarantees of financial viability, it's easy to see why so many LHS bite the dust and so few open every year now.
A few more thoughts:
Paul, "back in the day" lots of modelers modeled real prototypes and super detailed, kit bashed and scratch built accurate models. The desire for accurate models in not new. I was following plans in MR and adding correct details to models at age 12. Just now you don't have to do the work your self. That is a conversation for a different day in my mind, but I know you think we should tollerate preorders and poor availablity in return for accurate RTR models - I don't.
To others, I agree if you include the secondary market, the supply chain is greatly expanded. I'm not sure how new people see that or feel about that. As I said before, I'm not much for buying "already been played with", but I do buy "new old stock", not yet out of the box type stuff on the secondary market.
When I sold MATCO TOOLS, the market research said the average professional mechanic only worked with his tools for seven years and then moved into management or to a different trade - and they vertually all kept their tools, creating a fresh endless market.
I wonder how many inactive modelers there are sitting on vast pools of product? I don't think "everyone" gets rid of stuff just because they loose interest or lack time/space. So while the secondary market is surely an outlet for those who do want to sell their private collections, I question if that is the majority behavior?
I know personally that I am not one who buys/sells, buys/sells, buys/sells - I still have easily 90% of all the model trains I have bought in 46 years. Sure a piece here and there that I have changed my mind about, but even inactivity would not have me in a rush to sell stuff off. Guess I was raised different.
Also to some of you, where the trains are made and the geopolitical issues with China are not really what my original comments are about. Generally I understand that conversations on here go where they go, but those sorts of conversations always end badly on here.
Mike L, actually lots of hobby shops/train stores were very successful with that old business model, some still are today. As I point out every time one closes, often they close not for money reasons, but because the owner has no one to take over at retirement. Yes, it is a tough business today, and being "small" surely does not really work like it did in 1965, but many of the big guys with big inventories are doing well. And I think it could be done even better.
Thanks to all for your views, lots of good comments.
Paul3But for anyone who actually wants to model a real railroad, the modern hobby has the most to offer us. Paul A. Cutler III
Paul,I think you forget back then you could model some roads like the PRR,UP,SP,Santa Fe,GN and several others and we did exactly that and enjoyed ourselves since the hobby was far more relaxed back then since we understood it was a simple hobby and a bottomless money pit.
Brass steam locomotives was availble for several railroads and the line of available diesels was workable including some brass diesels.
Now with that said today's detailed models would not be here if we younger modelers didn't raise a fuss wanting better details.
It all started with detailed brass steam locomotives of the 50/60s and we young modelers wanted the same for our diesels and that dream was realized with Life Like's release of thier P2K line.
Sheldon,Of course there was wide spread, long term availability of models. That's because there was so few of them. Every hobby shop in the USA had all the same Athearn kits, MDC/Roundhouse kits, Stewart kits, etc. They all cranked them out, year after year, and they didn't even change the road numbers. The Athearn NH F7A #0272 I bought in 1990 was the exact same model that was available in 1980, and it had the exact same shell that was painted in 1970. It was just as wrong in the 1960's as it was in the 1990's. It had the same number from the previous paint scheme, for pete's sake.
MB Kleins had all the Athearn kits? So did a hobby shop in Colchester, CT. Hundreds of miles apart, and they had the same inventory. It shows how stagnant the hobby was.
What good was modeling the XYZ Railroad when nothing realistic existed for it? Let's go back to the olden days of 1991. I own a 1991 Walthers Catalog and it's next to my PC as I type this. In 1991, I was 16 and had just really gotten into the hobby the year before when my dad joined a club. I had been a New Haven fan since I can remember because of my father's collection of Rivarossi NH passenger cars and that it ran next to my home. When I got the hobby bug, I wanted to model the NH, too. I used this very same catalog to "plan" my NH purchases.
Guess what? There wasn't any other than the Athearn F7A-F7B I had bought the year before (which NH didn't have...which I found out later much to my chagrin), the Athearn SDP40 (which the NH never had...it's not even close as the NH had no C-C diesels), the Rivarossi E8A (again, the NH never had 'em), and the Stewart RS-3 (hey! The NH actually had these!). The mightly 1991 Walthers catalog could only supply me with just one diesel class of 25 diesels on the NH's 500+ diesel roster. And, quite frankly, the Stewart RS-3 kinda stunk with poor pulling power and a frame I could bend with my bare hands.
How many potential modelers never got into the hobby at all because the only models for the ABC railroad were cheap, train set junk? Or were of models that were nonsense?Yon olden days were great if you modeled a never-was railroad. It didn't matter if it was a UP FEF or a NKP Berk. Just paint your home railroad on it and call it a railroad. I'm sure you loved the old days, Sheldon, for that very reason. But for anyone who actually wants to model a real railroad, the modern hobby has the most to offer us.
I'm not quite a teen, but I am in my 20's and I've just enetered into the world of model trains through my research of a model in the collection of the Brooklyn Museum.
Not a model train in the typical sense, this is an over 2' wood model of an interior with fully functioning adjustable upholstered seats and sleeping berths. While I've tenously connected the model to a patent from 1869 ( not Pullman or Woodruff), I haven't been able to find out why this model would have been made (it's too large for a patent model and far too elaborate). Any of you history buffs have any ideas??
russ_q4bThe state of New Jersey now will not allow the Telsa electric cars to be sold by Telsa dealers, instead sold through independant dealers.
I believe that this is an incorrect statement. What they are saying is that Tesla's need to be sold through a franchised dealer, not from a "Tesla Store", which is basically direct from the factory. They are saying that that is their law, and the way all other vehicles are sold in New Jersey. Heere is where I'm getting my information: http://money.cnn.com/2014/03/14/autos/elon-musk-tesla-new-jersey/
All of that said, what this all has to do with hobby shop closings is beyond me.