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BEER!!

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Posted by colvinbackshop on Wednesday, January 25, 2006 11:37 PM
Ooopps!
I omitted a major part of my thought process on the brewery complex in my first post.
Grain bins aren't a bad way to go (I was going to do that but found that most breweries didn't).
And, in regard to a question already posted...Do we have enough storage space with a few bins? Storage for the grains is essential, especially if we are doing the malting to?
I used a Con-Cor Grain elevator kit in my brewery diorama. It's small enough to make it seem to fit, yet seemingly big enough to handle all that in-coming grain.
Walthers and others have done some kits too, or even some PVC pipes cut to length, glued together and some sort of roof will make for a very impressive storage facility! It could even be a shallow relief, right against the backdrop.
One other mistake I made in my post, was to refer to the initial boil as a "mash" (just reciting what had already been stated). In reality...The first boil of the ingredients or "soup" as I call it, is actually a "wort". After the boil, to precipitate out the solids, this wort is then put into primary fermentation, then secondary, then the Kraeusening or conditioning/finishing before bottling.
Puffin' & Chuggin', JB Chief Engineer, Colvin Creek Railway
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Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, January 25, 2006 11:56 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by colvinbackshop

Ooopps!
I omitted a major part of my thought process on the brewery complex in my first post.
Grain bins aren't a bad way to go (I was going to do that but found that most breweries didn't).
And, in regard to a question already posted...Do we have enough storage space with a few bins? Storage for the grains is essential, especially if we are doing the malting to?
I used a Con-Cor Grain elevator kit in my brewery diorama. It's small enough to make it seem to fit, yet seemingly big enough to handle all that in-coming grain.
Walthers and others have done some kits too, or even some PVC pipes cut to length, glued together and some sort of roof will make for a very impressive storage facility! It could even be a shallow relief, right against the backdrop.
One other mistake I made in my post, was to refer to the initial boil as a "mash" (just reciting what had already been stated). In reality...The first boil of the ingredients or "soup" as I call it, is actually a "wort". After the boil, to precipitate out the solids, this wort is then put into primary fermentation, then secondary, then the Kraeusening or conditioning/finishing before bottling.


Thank You for your additional information That was something I was not aware of.

James
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Posted by edkowal on Thursday, January 26, 2006 12:02 AM
Brewers would use the locally available water, rather than purchasing anything bottled. For the quantities involved, it would be way too expensive. Plus, they probably wouldn't be getting anything they couldn't produce themselves by treating the local supply.

The breweries that i've seen have tended to be mainly one large building. It may have started off small, and have been added to over the years, so that it looks like a polyglot, but they were all interconnected. That is, additions were made to the pre-existing building, rather than building a new free-standing building, and running pipes to it. It may depend on the size of the brewery, though.

-Ed

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"You don't have to be Jeeves to love butlers, but it helps." (Followers of Levi's Real Jewish Rye will get this one) -Ed K
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Posted by colvinbackshop on Friday, January 27, 2006 11:04 AM
Again...Great thread!
It is true that most buildings at a brewery are not "stand alone" although some are/were. One that I visited actually had buildings on both sides of a street!
This is a kit-bash paradise with all sort of buildings and building materials added to one another as the brewery morphs. But, if you add a stand alone building, slightly separated from the others...Piping and walkways connecting those stand alones can be very interesting and fun too. I've only been to one large brewery (Anheuser-Bush) and YES...it is all one very big building. Impressive in size, but really not all that interesting to look at.
I think a major question to ask, is what era is being modeled? Newer = more sterile looking and larger / older = more ornate and busier with piping, appliances and so on.
Along with that, the size of the brewery and / or method of brewing will determine the raw products and the rail cars in-bound. The two (I guess you call them local or regional) breweries that I've been to here in MN are Schell's and Summit (no where near the size of the giants) and the brewing process is still done the old way, with out forced fermentation and carbonation. Therefore, no CO2 or (don't know if these are used by the big boys or not) malt/hop slurries/extracts.... "tangerine-jack", if you can tell us....Any input on that?
BTW, "bukwrm" and "tangerine-jack", just out of curiosity (not that I would have CO2 service at my modeled small/local/brewery and I only use it to "power" the taper here at the home "Brauhaus") does the CO2 come to the brewery in rail tank cars? I didn't see that while at Anheuser-Bush, but hey...Do those cars end up inside the building too?
And with that question....I could easily get off topic here, maybe fodder for another thread!!??!! Maybe just fodder!!
Not to ruffle any feathers here (after all, those of us that love beer, love whatever beer we love) but in comparing the BIG and the LITTLE breweries along the lines of there methods of production....Are the giants making beer or artificially carbonated malt beverage?
Puffin' & Chuggin', JB Chief Engineer, Colvin Creek Railway
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Posted by topgun3208 on Friday, January 27, 2006 6:45 PM
It got me pumped up and excited to the point that i had to pour me a draught!
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Posted by Anonymous on Friday, January 27, 2006 8:44 PM
Bringing the CO2 in on rail cars makes sense to me. I don't really know how they get it but for the quantities they would need it seems likely that it would be supplied by rail.

Check out "The Complete Joy of Home Brewing" by Charles Papazian from the library. It will give you a good idea how the big boys do it and how it was done in the past. I have not brewed any since I moved and lost my gas stove. It is hard to boil 5 gallons of water on an electric range. I always used natural carbonation, sweetened the beer at bottling and let the yeast pressurize the bottle. I never even had one bottle explode but my brother was not so lucky.

I would like to have a brewery on my layout but I will have to give up some realism to do it. All of Cincinnati's breweries were closer to downtown or across the river in Kentucky. If my research does not turn up a small brewery on the CG&P at least I can haul beer in.
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Posted by tangerine-jack on Friday, January 27, 2006 9:20 PM
Speaking again only about the Williamsburg, VA brewery, external CO2 is not used in the processing of Budweiser Beers, the carbonation is a 100% natural process of the beech wood ageing (yes they use real beech wood in the larger tanks). I don't remember ever seeing any CO2 deliveries, if they did get any it was an ubersecret operation well away from any public scrutiny. I did however look into the larger tanks on occasion and see nice little bubbles forming on the wood.

I would suggest modeling a micro brewery, there are several in my area that are quite interesting architecturally speaking. You will then have the freedom to hodge-podge a number of buildings and styles without any issues of authenticity arising. I agree that almost all modern big name breweries are sterile looking single, but huge, buildings. Not very interesting, but golly they smell great!

I would think that whatever you chose for grain storage would be sufficient. A brewery doesn't make money on storing grain or hops, so you only need enough storage to justify maybe one or two day’s worth of product brewing. At Williamsburg, the storage is almost nil as the hops are taken directly to the wort room for processing upon delivery. If anything is stored, it stays in the hopper car until needed. Anheuser-Bush owns its own farms and therefore has 100% control over deliveries of raw materials, so it is possible for them to deliver to themselves the exact amount needed for a production run.

And to answer your question, in Williamsburg they only make 100% real beer, no artificial ingredients or chemical short cuts in processing. Quality is assured through high tech monitoring and highly skilled brewers (I asked the Brewmeister how I could get his job, he said "study biology, life sciences and buisiness administration, then bring me your 4.0 GPA and we'll talk, anything less and you can work for Coors, but not here"). However, beer is like stew, there are thousands of ways to do it, some ways are better than others, but it's all beer in the end.

I certainly can't wait to see your project in the works! Don't make us wait too long
[8D]

The Dixie D Short Line "Lux Lucet In Tenebris Nihil Igitur Mors Est Ad Nos 2001"

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Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, January 28, 2006 1:21 AM
QUOTE: Originally posted by tangerine-jack

Speaking again only about the Williamsburg, VA brewery, external CO2 is not used in the processing of Budweiser Beers, the carbonation is a 100% natural process of the beech wood ageing (yes they use real beech wood in the larger tanks). I don't remember ever seeing any CO2 deliveries, if they did get any it was an ubersecret operation well away from any public scrutiny. I did however look into the larger tanks on occasion and see nice little bubbles forming on the wood.

I would suggest modeling a micro brewery, there are several in my area that are quite interesting architecturally speaking. You will then have the freedom to hodge-podge a number of buildings and styles without any issues of authenticity arising. I agree that almost all modern big name breweries are sterile looking single, but huge, buildings. Not very interesting, but golly they smell great!

I would think that whatever you chose for grain storage would be sufficient. A brewery doesn't make money on storing grain or hops, so you only need enough storage to justify maybe one or two day’s worth of product brewing. At Williamsburg, the storage is almost nil as the hops are taken directly to the wort room for processing upon delivery. If anything is stored, it stays in the hopper car until needed. Anheuser-Bush owns its own farms and therefore has 100% control over deliveries of raw materials, so it is possible for them to deliver to themselves the exact amount needed for a production run.

And to answer your question, in Williamsburg they only make 100% real beer, no artificial ingredients or chemical short cuts in processing. Quality is assured through high tech monitoring and highly skilled brewers (I asked the Brewmeister how I could get his job, he said "study biology, life sciences and buisiness administration, then bring me your 4.0 GPA and we'll talk, anything less and you can work for Coors, but not here"). However, beer is like stew, there are thousands of ways to do it, some ways are better than others, but it's all beer in the end.

I certainly can't wait to see your project in the works! Don't make us wait too long
[8D]


Thanks Jack for extra insigts as to how this is done. What I want to build would be a small reagonal brewery, However This project is still some time off yet. As I have mentioned in other posts. I was in the moddle of moving when I got laid off from my job. So all of my stuff is packed up waiting for me to find another job and get moved. However this brewer is one of the first projects I am going to do when I get things set back up.

James
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Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, January 28, 2006 2:23 AM
Here is an overhead view of one Los Angeles area brewry: http://tinyurl.com/bbkvz

Here is another: http://tinyurl.com/c45fn
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Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, January 28, 2006 2:13 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by San Diego Coaster

Here is an overhead view of one Los Angeles area brewry: http://tinyurl.com/bbkvz

Here is another: http://tinyurl.com/c45fn


Thank You
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Posted by AltonFan on Saturday, January 28, 2006 5:27 PM
if you haven't already, see if you can get a copy of More Railroads You Can Model (red cover). One of the railroads depicted is the Milwaukee Road "Beer Line" that served a few breweries in Milwaukee.

I would imagine in the old days, CO2 may have been brought in as solid cakes (dry ice perhaps?) that would be dissolved in water to release the CO2.

But doesn't beer get its fizz from the fermentation process?

Dan

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Posted by colvinbackshop on Saturday, January 28, 2006 8:01 PM
AltonFan wrote:
"But doesn't beer get its fizz from the fermentation process?"
JB says:
Well it does here at my home brewery and, for sure, also at Anheuser-Bush (according to "tangerine-jack") Schell's and Summit.
And thanks guys ( "bukwrm" and "tangerine-jack"), for the responce on the CO2 and how A-B goes about things!
Puffin' & Chuggin', JB Chief Engineer, Colvin Creek Railway
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Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, January 28, 2006 8:09 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by AltonFan

if you haven't already, see if you can get a copy of More Railroads You Can Model (red cover). One of the railroads depicted is the Milwaukee Road "Beer Line" that served a few breweries in Milwaukee.

i would imagine in the old days, CO2 may have been brought in as solid cakes (dry ice perhaps) that would be dissolved in water tp release the CO2.

But doesn't beer get its fizz from the fermentation process?


Yes, the yeast that devour the sugars in the wort produce alcohol and co2 gas. Brewers allow the fermentation to run its course then home-brewers add some more sugar to the living yeast and confine the mixture in heavy glass bottles. The yeast grows and produce CO2 to carbonate the bottle. Sometimes the bottles explode because of to much pressure.

Exploding bottles are a bad thing for a commercial brewery. They don't like heavy bottles much eather, they cost to much to move. So to eliminate the exploding bottles they filter the beer, the filter is fine enough to remove the yeast and the little CO2 that is in the unpressurized beer. Then the beer is chilled and pressurized with CO2 and bottled. No yeast means that the pressure inside the bottle will not rise and no bottles, even light thin ones will explode.

As I was typing this it dawned on me that there is no need to ship in CO2. The fermenting wort puts off huge amounts of it. All a brewery would need to do is harvest enough gas from this step in the process to pressurize the beer for bottling.
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Posted by cuyama on Saturday, January 28, 2006 11:04 PM
A highly compressed model brewery and supporting yard in 8 square feet of N scale modules:
http://www.modelrail.us/gallery/id27.html
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Posted by tangerine-jack on Saturday, January 28, 2006 11:23 PM
bukwrm,
You may be right about tapping off CO2 from the fermentation for bottling, I don't really know. That is an A-B trade secret that few are privy to, like the recipe for the beer itself. Imagine the black market price for that list of ingredients! All I know is how the hops move from the rails through the brewery to the market, but not a lot about what happens to the hops inside the "restricted areas". I can assure you that the bottling room works 24/7 filling tens of thousands of bottles and cans per day. I may be off on the numbers a little, but I think the claim is 17,000 cases and 5,000 kegs per shift. From what I have seen with my own eyes, that may be very close. It's an impressive operation, most impressive.

What staggers me is the realization that Williamsburg is only one brewery of many in the Anheiser-Bush inventory. Add in the other big name brewers, plus a multitude of smaller operations, and one begins to get the understanding that ALL this beer will be consumed within a week or so by the public. That is A LOT OF DRUNK SOB'S OUT THERE!!!!!!!

The Dixie D Short Line "Lux Lucet In Tenebris Nihil Igitur Mors Est Ad Nos 2001"

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Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, January 29, 2006 2:01 AM
QUOTE: Originally posted by cuyama

A highly compressed model brewery and supporting yard in 8 square feet of N scale modules:
http://www.modelrail.us/gallery/id27.html



Thank you for sharing your project with me. Mine is a might bit smaller than yours in terms of operations. (Your N scale depicts a larger operation than what is planned on my HO scale layout) It has shown me that I am on the right track.

James
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Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, February 9, 2006 12:03 AM
Might as well keep up the happy model train talk going.
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Posted by littleboom on Thursday, February 9, 2006 12:27 AM
The Reading Northern RR website has a couple photos of the Yuengling brewery at the bottom of this page...can see pipes and stuff in some of the photos. Hope this helps.

Mike

http://www.readingnorthern.com/photos.shtml
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Posted by ericmanke on Thursday, February 9, 2006 6:06 AM
Check out this book. I think this book might help.

http://www.mrha.com/item-detail.cfm?ID=pub5
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Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, February 9, 2006 6:34 AM
QUOTE: Originally posted by tangerine-jack

bukwrm,
You may be right about tapping off CO2 from the fermentation for bottling, I don't really know. That is an A-B trade secret that few are privy to, like the recipe for the beer itself. Imagine the black market price for that list of ingredients! All I know is how the hops move from the rails through the brewery to the market, but not a lot about what happens to the hops inside the "restricted areas". I can assure you that the bottling room works 24/7 filling tens of thousands of bottles and cans per day. I may be off on the numbers a little, but I think the claim is 17,000 cases and 5,000 kegs per shift. From what I have seen with my own eyes, that may be very close. It's an impressive operation, most impressive.

What staggers me is the realization that Williamsburg is only one brewery of many in the Anheiser-Bush inventory. Add in the other big name brewers, plus a multitude of smaller operations, and one begins to get the understanding that ALL this beer will be consumed within a week or so by the public. That is A LOT OF DRUNK SOB'S OUT THERE!!!!!!!


As a former home brewer what most amazes me is the way the commercial brewers get the same taste batch after batch after batch. The differences in the water from plant to plant, the variations in the grain, the hops. It is truly astounding that they can keep the same taste without using artificial flavoring agents and to the best of my knowledge none of them do.

As Ben Franklin said "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy."
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Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, February 9, 2006 9:46 AM
I remember seeing provision for cardboard for boxes and packaging, but no in bounds for bottles, cans and returned or new kegs. Got to package that "production" into something for distribution! Got to move the necture of the Gods in something!!
Will
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Posted by tomikawaTT on Thursday, February 9, 2006 9:47 AM
Earlier on, several people mentioned Coors. Just a few notes:

The main Coors brewery complex in Golden, CO is bigger than a lot of small towns.

Instead of turnouts, the reefer loading facility uses a long string of transfer tables to position cars for loading. Each transfer table is two tracks wide and just long enough to accept a reefer. The whole thing is under cover (it snows in Colorado!) but could be modeled in the open in a more temperate clime.

You might want to put some of your structures on the backdrop, either photos or low-profiles. That way you can have a really big brewery complex without devoting your entire layout to it.
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Posted by cwclark on Thursday, February 9, 2006 10:43 AM
when i have a question like this there's only one thing to do..RAILFAN TIME!....go visit a brewery near your home, see what all is involved, take notes and pictures, once you have all this information, then plan your layout scene...chuck

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Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, February 9, 2006 10:57 AM
Well you can imagine what I thought when I first saw this title[:D]. Sounds like you planned it out nicely. It will be a lot of switching. Of course we'll want to see pics of it when it's done.
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Posted by tangerine-jack on Thursday, February 9, 2006 11:07 AM
Bukwrm,

A-B has a very high tech computerized central control and monitoring system that quality checks every aspect of production, nothing is left to chance. That is why the brewmeister is making the big $$$$, to get the beer the same flavor as corporate standard. The water is filtered and quality checked, and as I mentioned before, A-B owns it's own hop farms so they have 100% control over the growth of primary ingredients. It is a huge and sophisticated operation, but they make millions every year so they can afford equipment and production techniques that a home brewer could only dream of.

BTW, I don't have anything against Coors, I was just quoting what the Brewmeister said to me. A-B is only one of many fine breweries making a quality product.

The Dixie D Short Line "Lux Lucet In Tenebris Nihil Igitur Mors Est Ad Nos 2001"

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Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, February 9, 2006 1:26 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by Overdurff

I remember seeing provision for cardboard for boxes and packaging, but no in bounds for bottles, cans and returned or new kegs. Got to package that "production" into something for distribution! Got to move the necture of the Gods in something!!
Will


Thanks for catching that oversight. I will have to adjust accordingly.

James
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Posted by vsmith on Thursday, February 9, 2006 1:58 PM
Originally posted by San Diego Coaster[/i]
Here is an overhead view of one Los Angeles area brewry: http://tinyurl.com/bbkvz
Thats the Irwindale Millers Brewery I described at the beginning of this topic off the old mainline, now branchline BNSF
Here is another: http://tinyurl.com/c45fn
Thats the Budweiser Brewery in Van Nuys off the UP mainline its mostly truck serviced

Vic[:p]

   Have fun with your trains

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Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, February 9, 2006 2:34 PM
Just a few comments on the brewery you're building...I was one of the start-up Engineers on the Miller Irwindale plant mentioned earlier on...there is also a small tank house, and high pressure gas storage tanks..the tank house is for unloading molasses..that's right..it's a major part of beer..the sugar reacts with the yeast to ferment the wort, create more yeast, which is pulled off for future brews and sold to stores as "Brewers yeast" and create CO2, which is pulled off and stored in the high pressure tanks, to be injected into the aged beer (non-carbonated at this point) under extreme pressure just prior to packaging..it then goes to the pasteurizers and finally the palletizers to be stacked and wrapped and finally shipped...the only products shipped cold are the "pony" kegs..tappers if you will, because they are not pasteurized..Coors HAD to ship cold, because none of their product was pastuerized..so the reefer traffic is minimal...also, the spent grain isn't transported in hoppers...it's augered out of the dump hoppers hot, right into open top trailers...this stuff will solidify if it cools, so cleaning the hoppers could be a major task..it's also extremely abrasive, and the augers or screws in the Moyno pumps (dairy grade) are replaced frequently...anyway, that's probably more then you wanted to know, but now you can have trucks to haul off the spent grain, tanker cars for molasses, boxes for the beer and a reefer of two for the cold products..Miller also sold off excess CO2 to fire protection companies and it left the plant in tank trucks and hi-pressure tank cars..one last thing..I know of no brewery that uses city water...Bud and Miller plants in Ca all sink deep wells..not just for the pure water, but the cost...MIller Irwindale is a 20 million bbl plant...at the time I was there, in the mid 70's, a six pack of High Life cost about 6 cents to make, package and ship...thats after the CO2, yeast and spent grain is sold off...not bad....if you have any more questions, we can take it to em if you wish....I'll be making a replica of the Miller plant on my new layout...
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Posted by Anonymous on Monday, March 6, 2006 7:53 AM
QUOTE: Originally posted by Student of Big Sky Blue

Since I first dreamed up this little project. My era has shifted from more or less 1990s to the present day to 1969. I am wondering would there be any fundamental changes I should consider now that I have changed eras?

James


Other than rolling stock and motive power, I doubt it.

The brewery should offer you a lot of flexibility. I grew up not far from the HQ Anheuser-Busch brewery in St. Louis. To this day, it still looks very old-fashioned. Brick and stone, vintage appearance (actually, very similar to the DPM modular walls with their brick "columns" at joints). There are more modern buildings, but they're either constructed to look 'historic' or sort of tucked away out of sight.

On the other hand, I drive past a Miller brewery regularly which is very state of the art. Glass and steel, very modern looking, even to the point of having huge glass walls so you can see the boiling vats and equipment as you drive by (like what you often see at brewpubs, just on a huge scale).

That latter would likely be far too modern for a '69 era layout, but my point is that you can have anything from a 100% modern as-of-your-era building back to a very old-fashioned building from any time in the past and still be on target.

One final note: as a homebrewer myself, I'd suggest that hops is about the 1/10 ratio to barley as noted here... BY WEIGHT.

But by volume, it's far less skewed. Hops are light while barley is very dense. So I'd suggest you're looking at more of a 1/3 or 1/4 ratio of hops to barley if you consider it by volume of space needed - number of cars, storage, etc. - which is probably more relevant for MRR purposes.

And as also mentioned, your A#1 ingredient that dwarfs all else is water. If you haven't a nearby source, you'd best determine that your brewery sits over an acquifer and has a big well with a large pump...
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Posted by Anonymous on Monday, March 6, 2006 3:10 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by kchronister
Other than rolling stock and motive power, I doubt it.

The brewery should offer you a lot of flexibility. I grew up not far from the HQ Anheuser-Busch brewery in St. Louis. To this day, it still looks very old-fashioned. Brick and stone, vintage appearance (actually, very similar to the DPM modular walls with their brick "columns" at joints). There are more modern buildings, but they're either constructed to look 'historic' or sort of tucked away out of sight.

On the other hand, I drive past a Miller brewery regularly which is very state of the art. Glass and steel, very modern looking, even to the point of having huge glass walls so you can see the boiling vats and equipment as you drive by (like what you often see at brewpubs, just on a huge scale).

That latter would likely be far too modern for a '69 era layout, but my point is that you can have anything from a 100% modern as-of-your-era building back to a very old-fashioned building from any time in the past and still be on target.

One final note: as a homebrewer myself, I'd suggest that hops is about the 1/10 ratio to barley as noted here... BY WEIGHT.

But by volume, it's far less skewed. Hops are light while barley is very dense. So I'd suggest you're looking at more of a 1/3 or 1/4 ratio of hops to barley if you consider it by volume of space needed - number of cars, storage, etc. - which is probably more relevant for MRR purposes.

And as also mentioned, your A#1 ingredient that dwarfs all else is water. If you haven't a nearby source, you'd best determine that your brewery sits over an acquifer and has a big well with a large pump...


Thanks for sharing your insigts. I will work your information into my plans.

James

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