BRAKIE NP2626 Larry, (Brakie) am I correct in the fact that you are not running steam engines? I have one steam engine a old AHM NKP Berk I painted and lettered for the 765 but ,it hasn't been ran in years..I'm 100% diesel.
NP2626 Larry, (Brakie) am I correct in the fact that you are not running steam engines?
Larry, (Brakie) am I correct in the fact that you are not running steam engines?
I have one steam engine a old AHM NKP Berk I painted and lettered for the 765 but ,it hasn't been ran in years..I'm 100% diesel.
Alton Junction
richhotrain BRAKIE NP2626 Larry, (Brakie) am I correct in the fact that you are not running steam engines? I have one steam engine a old AHM NKP Berk I painted and lettered for the 765 but ,it hasn't been ran in years..I'm 100% diesel. Brakie, shame on you. As I scroll back through the replies to this thread, you were the loudest proponent of the zero derailment theory, and yet you are 100% diesel??? Not even one steamer on which to make your claims??? Rich
Steam,Diesel,Electric or Trolley it doesn't matter since you want derailment free operation.
Using steam as a excuse for derailments is weak and holds as much water as a metal water bucket with a rusted out bottom...
I've seen steam locomotives run for hours at the club with zero derailments.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
NP2626 O.K., my diesels (7 of them) make it around my layout without problems, too. When your talking diesels and I'm talking steamers, we're not speaking the same language, are we?
O.K., my diesels (7 of them) make it around my layout without problems, too. When your talking diesels and I'm talking steamers, we're not speaking the same language, are we?
Yes we are speaking the same language..I'm talking about derailment free operation regardless if its steam or diesel.As I told Rich I see steam engines run for hours at the club with zero derailments..
Larry, you should recuse yourself from any further comment on this thread.
The subject is the higher maintenance associated with steam engines.
The contention is that steam engines require bullet proof track work whereas diesels don't.
If you don't run steam engines, how can you comment so knowingly?
Rich
richhotrainThe contention is that steam engines require bullet proof track work whereas diesels don't.
Dr. Frankendiesel aka Scott Running BearSpace Mouse for president!15 year veteran fire fighterCollector of Apple //e'sRunning Bear EnterprisesHistory Channel Club life member.beatus homo qui invenit sapientiam
A good tip came from Model Railroader magazine years ago.
Take your worst locomotive and run it over the tracks forward and backward before you ballast.
That's your test if it's ready.
Yes steamers are more maintence intense. Getting the the gear tower, to the final gear, and the wires between the tender and engine require more work.
Yes, the longer wheel base does create problems on tighter curves.
What's your point?
I run Bachmann's 2-6-6-2's on R18's for hours for my son. Does he care about overhang? Nope. He just lets his imagination fly.
As we have all said all along, it's what makes you happy.
Don - Specializing in layout DC->DCC conversions
Modeling C&O transition era and steel industries There's Nothing Like Big Steam!
richhotrain If you don't run steam engines, how can you comment so knowingly? Rich
Simple..I have eyes and I see BLI,MTH,Bachmann and other brands of steam engines run for hours at the club without derailments..
If one is a member of a club he gets to see many new locomotives and watching them run can give you knowledge of a given engine-good,bad or plum ugly..
Of course getting first hand information from the owner is priceless..
BRAKIE richhotrain If you don't run steam engines, how can you comment so knowingly? Rich Simple..I have eyes and I see BLI,MTH,Bachmann and other brands of steam engines run for hours at the club without derailments.. If one is a member of a club he gets to see many new locomotives and watching them run can give you knowledge of a given engine-good,bad or plum ugly.. Of course getting first hand information from the owner is priceless..
It's that steamers in a scale run on scale rails anywhere and don't derail that matters to the discussion. It can be done, we've seen it happen, and we know it takes some doing to get there. That should be the end of it, fellas.
We've gotten sidetracked, so to speak, by the derailment issue.
But there are other maintenance problems with steamers that make them more troublesome.
Digital Griffin just mentioned some other issues, the gears, the wires between the tender and engine, the longer wheel base, just to name a few.
Another is the need to often add weight to the pilot truck and the trailing truck, the need the add, adjust or replace springs on the truck assemblies, and, at least in my opinion, the inherently poor design of the engine trucks, leaving them to be floppy and not really able to hold the rails.
.
BRAKIE NP2626 O.K., my diesels (7 of them) make it around my layout without problems, too. When your talking diesels and I'm talking steamers, we're not speaking the same language, are we? Yes we are speaking the same language..I'm talking about derailment free operation regardless if its steam or diesel.As I told Rich I see steam engines run for hours at the club with zero derailments..
No, we're not speaking the same language! Yes, the idea is to run trains without problems. However, someone speaking as an "Authority" who simply dismisses problems others may have with equipment, the suppposed "Authority" doesn't even have; or, want, brings the credabilty of the "authority" into question!
Of the 15 locomotives I own, I only have one that likes to derail. Given the longevity I've had working in quality, building models owning my own businesses and my mechanical abilities, it is a forgone logical conclusion for me to decide I've got a loco with a problem. If you disagee with my conclusion, prove me wrong! Telling me I'm wrong is doing absolutly nothing and you supposed authorities have said nothing about what is needed to fix things! What a waste of time!
NP 2626 "Northern Pacific, really terrific"
Northern Pacific Railway Historical Association: http://www.nprha.org/
Hm--derailment free, huh?
Well, I've got one Genesis A/B F-3 set that is the only locomotive to derail on a turnout in my main yard. Everything else goes through just perfectly--my other diesel units, and all of my steam, from my 2-8-0 to my 2-8-8-4's and centipede tenders (brass centipede tenders, so you KNOW they have tight tolerances). But the B unit on this particular set takes to the ground everytime I run it through the turnout at anything over 10smph. Checked the turnout, checked the trucks on the B unit--everything. Still hits the ballast regularly.
So pardon me if I don't buy the steam=more derailments theory.
Tom
Tom View my layout photos! http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/mm310/TWhite-014/Rio%20Grande%20Yuba%20River%20Sub One can NEVER have too many Articulateds!
I have a whole pile of both steam and diesel around here that I can run...most of the time I have no derailments ...there are times, however, when one of my infamous gremlinized turnouts decides not to do what it is supposed to do...which causes one of my locos to run to ground...
As far as steam needing extra maintenance ...well...the prototypes did to some extent just as much..that was part of the 'romance' of the period, I guess
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
NP2626Telling me I'm wrong is doing absolutly nothing and you supposed authorities have said nothing about what is needed to fix things!
Well-never mind.
Well, after a day of carpentry, drywall and electrical work for my latest client, a retired hobby shop owner, I spent a few minutes out in the garage in the layout room running trains - well just one train actually.
It was a Proto2000 2-8-8-2 and a Bachmann 2-8-0 double headed with about 60 piggyback flat cars. No derailments reported - and todays train movements including backing this train partly up a 1.8% grade and through three curves at the same time - of course the curves are 36" radius, 54" radius and 44" radius repectively.
The rolling stock consisted of a a mix of Athearn, Bachmann and Walthers 50' flats with vans few Walthers 75' flats with vans.
And yes, these two locos run just fine together on DC, and it actually takes both to move this train.
Zero derailments - generally pretty easy to achieve if you lay track carefully to a good plan in the frst place.
I prefer track glued to homabed or homasote, never did like cork.
Earlier smaller layouts I hand layed my track - but now using Atlas code 83 and like it just as well except for building special stuff.
Sheldon
It is a guaranteed conclusion that if I'm running on a layout with 3 other guys and there is a turnout somewhere that is set" wrong" , I... ME, Numero Uno will ALWAYS run foul of it first. And DEE RAIL.
Gay ron teeeed.
after running my 4-8-4 northern some much wider radii turns, today I have to wonder why I did not buy some wider radius turns. it handled those curves beautifully and without losing a step with it's assigned consist behind it. as for maintenance between steam and diesel, well I agree with NP my steamers need far more maintenance then they have received. well I have tomorrow off, I need to take care of MRR tasks and future MRRing financial investments.
SP&S modeler, 1960's give or take a decade or two for some equipment.
http://www.youtube.com/user/SGTDUPREY?feature=guide
Gary DuPrey
N scale model railroader
Do steam engines require more maintenance? YES! Is it difficult? NO! On my layout I have now over 30 steamers, of which 90% are brass. Each one had to be tweaked as it came out of the box initially, but after that I haven't had to do any more maintenance on them other than the 6 month maintenance I do on every loco, including the 6 diesels I own. There is virtually no difference in the maintenance that I do between the two types of engines.
As an aside, I do just as much, if not more tweaking to the diesels I own. Each one, no matter the make, has recieved my "treatment", prior to landing on the rails. This consists of taking each diesel completely apart, cleaning out all the grease and oil. Visually inspecting, and removing with a set of files, all the flash that is in the center of the gears, as well as the flash that is on the sides of them. I also do the same to the inside of the truck frames, and the plastic axles the gears are mounted to. After this, I reassemble the trucks, and prior to putting the bottom gear plate on, I fill the gear box with a low abrasive cleanser like Bon-Ami or Bar Keepers Friend. (I used to use powdered toothpaste, but that is impossible to find in my area.)
I then chuck the truck into a Dremel, and while holing the truck with one hand, the Dremel with the other, I turn the power on. After about 30-45 Seconds, I let go of the truck, and it will sit there and sway back and forth. I run this for 3-4 minutes. Then the trucks are taken apart again and cleaned of the cleanser, and then reassembled. Each part recieves oil or grease as its put back together. I use barely a drop of oil or grease as they are assembled. There are a few things I do to the motor as well. This generally consists of adjusting the back and forth movement of the commutator with a thrust washer or two. I also slightly ease the pressure of the brushes, by cutting off a ring or two on the brush springs. If necessary, I will also smooth the armature with 1200 grit sandpaper With this method, I been able to completely quiet down Athearns and get them to run as smooth and quiet as an Atlas, or Kato. Some folks recommend just using Pearl Drops, or some other type of liquid toothpaste, but IMHO I've found that the PD method, doesn't do as good of a job, as the dry low abrasive cleanser.
90% of my track is handlain, including most of my turnouts. There are 14 commercial turnouts in my hidden staging yards. These are all Atlas CL #6's. All have been "operated" on to insure derailment free operation. My track is laid on sanded and leveled sub-roadbed, sanded and leveled roadbed, and sanded and leveled ties. Other than an occasional open turnout, I have Zero derailments. I have track in some areas, almost 6 feet off of the floor, with NO, derailment fences, protectors, etc. Only thing between the rails and the floor, is air. In over 4 years, not a single derailment there. Whether its an 0-6-0, or my brass H-8 Allegheny, or my brass Y-3.
Larry, (Brakie) is correct. Almost perfect trackwork IS the basic requirement for trouble free operation.
Carey
Keep it between the Rails
Alabama Central Homepage
Nara member #128
NMRA &SER Life member
So I guess nobody noticed all the threads on cracked gears on diesels ( I have HAD to replace gears on two of my son's diesels, I've never had to replace gears on a steamer yet). I've had to adjust the plates on top of trucks to get the bodies to ride level, I had to remove flash from gears in diesels, the wheels have had to be regauged, wires have rubbed on drive shafts, fly wheels and motors, motor mounts have cracked.
Most of the steamers that have problems are designs from the 1960's or 1970's. Whip out a TYCO F9 with the pancake motor on just one truck and then tell me how well diesels run. ALL engines with a crappy design run poorly. On the other hand if you run a modern Roundhouse 2-8-0 with all wheel pick up, it runs smooth as silk.
Its not as much a steam vs diesel arguement its 40 year old design vs a modern design question.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
I've found it interesting in this thread that many people have had problems with their equipment. That people have been having problems for years. Their problems may; or, may not be similar to the problems described by other modeler railroaders: the problems might be with newer equipment, might be with older equipment, might be with diesels; or, steam. Then there are those who disagree with everyone and say they never have any problems with any of their locomotives, steam or diesel.
Gathering from what's actually been said and attempting to read between the lines when nothing hard/cold has actually been stated, it paints a pretty clear picture that our equipment can and does have problems! We all understand that track-work can be one of those problems. However, specific problems with specific locomotives have been pointed out.
Since 1988 when I started my current layout I have owned more than 25 locomotives. I have sold off 10 of these, because my interests changed and the locomotive I sold didn't fit my current interests. All but one of the locomotives I've sold were kits, built by me and ran well when I sold them. Is my experiences with 25 locomotives enough for me to have drawn some conclusions? You bet your "Sweet Bippy" it is! Do I have manufacturers I will buy from again, YES! Do I have manufacturers I will never buy from again, probably (I never say never)!
I also have a Varney "Little Joe" Docksider 0-4-0 that if it isn't 60 years old, is dang close and "Keeps on going, like the Eveready Bunny". I can believe there is old "Junk" that was made. But, I also know there is new "Junk" being sold as we speak and some of it is damned expensive!
Take this thread, leave this thread, come to your own conclusions!
jacon12It is a guaranteed conclusion that if I'm running on a layout with 3 other guys and there is a turnout somewhere that is set" wrong" , I... ME, Numero Uno will ALWAYS run foul of it first. And DEE RAIL.
But I am also starting to believe in Grimlins. Usually our operation at the museum is trouble free. Usually days will go by with out a derailment. Over all very few derailments (even then most that do occur are involving ore cars, or happen on silly Saturday when volunteers can bring their own equipment in to run on the museum track.). But last Saturday we had seven. Yes seven derailments in one operating session. After each one the scene was investigated to determine the cause. One was caused by a tree falling over onto the track, another was where a part had broken off a car and fallen down on the track. The others remain a mystery. No apparent reason. For a change they did not involve ore cars.
I personally do not belive that 100% derailment operation is possible. There is too much happenstance in life.
I believe steam are harder to keep on the track because of the leading and trailing trucks. They are not supporting the weight of the model like prototype ones do. For the most part they do not help steer the frame like the prototype ones do. They are more like a little cart being pushed or pulled by the loco. A derailment problem waiting to happen.
NP2626Since 1988 when I started my current layout I have owned more than 25 locomotives. I have sold off 10 of these, because my interests changed and the locomotive I sold didn't fit my current interests.
Wow! Let me get this straight. You completely disassemble EVERY diesel locomotive you own, even brand new ones, and do all that to them?
Jarrell
cjcrescent Do steam engines require more maintenance? YES! Is it difficult? NO! On my layout I have now over 30 steamers, of which 90% are brass. Each one had to be tweaked as it came out of the box initially, but after that I haven't had to do any more maintenance on them other than the 6 month maintenance I do on every loco, including the 6 diesels I own. There is virtually no difference in the maintenance that I do between the two types of engines. As an aside, I do just as much, if not more tweaking to the diesels I own. Each one, no matter the make, has recieved my "treatment", prior to landing on the rails. This consists of taking each diesel completely apart, cleaning out all the grease and oil. Visually inspecting, and removing with a set of files, all the flash that is in the center of the gears, as well as the flash that is on the sides of them. I also do the same to the inside of the truck frames, and the plastic axles the gears are mounted to. After this, I reassemble the trucks, and prior to putting the bottom gear plate on, I fill the gear box with a low abrasive cleanser like Bon-Ami or Bar Keepers Friend. (I used to use powdered toothpaste, but that is impossible to find in my area.) I then chuck the truck into a Dremel, and while holing the truck with one hand, the Dremel with the other, I turn the power on. After about 30-45 Seconds, I let go of the truck, and it will sit there and sway back and forth. I run this for 3-4 minutes. Then the trucks are taken apart again and cleaned of the cleanser, and then reassembled. Each part recieves oil or grease as its put back together. I use barely a drop of oil or grease as they are assembled. There are a few things I do to the motor as well. This generally consists of adjusting the back and forth movement of the commutator with a thrust washer or two. I also slightly ease the pressure of the brushes, by cutting off a ring or two on the brush springs. If necessary, I will also smooth the armature with 1200 grit sandpaper With this method, I been able to completely quiet down Athearns and get them to run as smooth and quiet as an Atlas, or Kato. Some folks recommend just using Pearl Drops, or some other type of liquid toothpaste, but IMHO I've found that the PD method, doesn't do as good of a job, as the dry low abrasive cleanser. 90% of my track is handlain, including most of my turnouts. There are 14 commercial turnouts in my hidden staging yards. These are all Atlas CL #6's. All have been "operated" on to insure derailment free operation. My track is laid on sanded and leveled sub-roadbed, sanded and leveled roadbed, and sanded and leveled ties. Other than an occasional open turnout, I have Zero derailments. I have track in some areas, almost 6 feet off of the floor, with NO, derailment fences, protectors, etc. Only thing between the rails and the floor, is air. In over 4 years, not a single derailment there. Whether its an 0-6-0, or my brass H-8 Allegheny, or my brass Y-3. Larry, (Brakie) is correct. Almost perfect trackwork IS the basic requirement for trouble free operation.
I'm a diesel man myself. Considering almost all the locos I get my hands on are used the first thing I do after taking one out of the box is to completely disassemble it and I mean no piece touching any other piece. There's not much I can do about damage to the body so I generally don't worry about it. Everything else gets thoroughly cleaned and inspected. Any thing that's worn or damaged gets replaced provided I have that part. Otherwise it gets repaired as well as I can do it. I'm not a master mechanic but I can hold my own. With the number of locos I've rebuilt over the years I have quite a bit of experience at it. Once everything is checked, replaced/repaired it all gets reassembled, lubed and tested. Only when it's running to my standard do I check it off the list. I have blue box Athearn's and home-builds that have Athearn parts that run as quite as my best Atlas locos. I've done a small number of steamers as well but they take somewhat longer.
dehusman, I've never had to replace gears on a steamer yet)
I had to replace the axle gear on my BLI I1sa and an idler gear on my BLI J1. I also changed out an axle gear on my Bowser B6sb. I have a Sunset I1sa 2-10-0 that came with the three center drivers blind. It had the compulsion to drop a blind driver between the rails on some curves. I ended up replacing the #2 and 4 driver sets with flanged wheels and left the center blind. No more problems since then.
All my equipment goes through a rigorous tune up and tweaks before they hit the rails. Metal wheels, KD couplers adjusted and pins adjusted, 3 point suspension, and I do not add weight beyond what came with the rolling stock. The only problems I have is getting rear ended by another operator not paying attention. I did have one weird problem. I had a double header of 2-10-0s in front of 48 hoppers and a cabin on the rear. When the train just started cresting the big hill at the club one of the Athearn coupler covers came off and the whole train minus the locos and 1 car went down hill cabin first at nearly the speed of sound until the first curve. There is still a hopper missing in the clubs layout somewhere. The screw must have fell out and the cover was relying on the tabs to hold it.
Pete
I pray every day I break even, Cause I can really use the money!
I started with nothing and still have most of it left!
If anyone is interested in the continuance of this thread and my feelings about the quality of modern model railroad locomotives, I have some interesting information to relay. One of the locomotives I have, that prompted this thread is a Broadway Limited Inc. NYC Hudson J1e that has problems. This locomotive will not stay on the track. The lead truck, the lead driver set and the tender all derail at locations none of my other 14 locomotives have problems with. I am in communication with BLI as we speak, about these problems. It turns out that my locomotive is from the very first production batch that BLI made of this locomotive (I believe this was the first product they brought to the market). At this point in time, they are telling me that they will no longer work on this locomotive, that the product went through a re-design and they will only service the newer design. This is all still in the communication stages and so an outcome is still in the making.
So, in this instance, all of my attempting to use a logical sequence of tests to determine what the problem was, would never have determined a fix as the product came from the manufacturer, faulty from the start!
I find BLI's position on this issue troubling.
I understand that the BLI warranty is limited to one year and that replacement parts are no longer available.
But if the first run of the Hudson was known to be problematic, then BLI ought to stand behind its products.
Since BLI now has a more recent run of the Hudson with different tooling, it should offer some form of deep discount exchange to prior buyers with faulty Hudson locos.
dehusman I've never had to replace gears on a steamer yet
I've never had to replace gears on a steamer yet
Must have never had one of the brass imports from Custom Brass or Hallmark that were made by Dong-Jin. Had to be the worst gearbox ever made, almost every one had to be replaced. The Westside (PSC) gearbox was a great fit. Really learned how to use the NWSL Quarterer on repairing those engines.
The first brass steamers I got, the company I got them from instructed me to run each one for 1 hour per driven axle (half forward / half reverse). Those engines that I did that to are the smoothest running engines I have ever had. One of the PFM C&O 2-6-6-2's that I own runs so smooth and quiet compared to most of the United articulated that some thought I disengaged the front set of drivers.
The chucking of the Athearn power truck in a Dremel is the same procedure a lot of us used when we built a Hobbytown Diesel to wear the gears in when first built. That 30,000 rpm's got rid of any high spots on the gears really quickly.
Rick J
Rule 1: This is my railroad.
Rule 2: I make the rules.
Rule 3: Illuminating discussion of prototype history, equipment and operating practices is always welcome, but in the event of visitor-perceived anacronisms, detail descrepancies or operating errors, consult RULE 1!
NP.
Just because one steamer is giving fits is really no reason to put all the steamers on a shelf. Our club had 2 of the original J1e Hudson and after the updated chip was installed they ran very good. My BLI M1b had an issue derailing the front truck. It turned out to be installed backwards. I am not sure if your Hudson has the same type of mounting. The ends of the crescent shaped hole that the screw is in should be pointing to the rear and the center of the crescent should be to the front. If the front truck and the tender are derailing at the same point is telling me the curve is too sharp or uneven or may have a kink in it.
richhotrain I find BLI's position on this issue troubling. I understand that the BLI warranty is limited to one year and that replacement parts are no longer available. But if the first run of the Hudson was known to be problematic, then BLI ought to stand behind its products. Since BLI now has a more recent run of the Hudson with different tooling, it should offer some form of deep discount exchange to prior buyers with faulty Hudson locos. Rich
Rich,
Respectfully, it is no more troubling than their inability to provide correct parts for my Mikados, and they made no offers of compensation to me.
Or no more troubling than Bachmann's inability to replace/fix "thumper" for you - at least Bachmann gave you something?
I have known lots of people with those Hudsons, I don't know of any with mechanical issues, but it would not surprise me if there is some sort of defect.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL richhotrain I find BLI's position on this issue troubling. I understand that the BLI warranty is limited to one year and that replacement parts are no longer available. But if the first run of the Hudson was known to be problematic, then BLI ought to stand behind its products. Since BLI now has a more recent run of the Hudson with different tooling, it should offer some form of deep discount exchange to prior buyers with faulty Hudson locos. Rich Rich, Respectfully, it is no more troubling than their inability to provide correct parts for my Mikados, and they made no offers of compensation to me. Or no more troubling than Bachmann's inability to replace/fix "thumper" for you - at least Bachmann gave you something? I have known lots of people with those Hudsons, I don't know of any with mechanical issues, but it would not surprise me if there is some sort of defect. Sheldon
Sheldon, that is exactly my point, so we are in agreement.
Regarding NP2626's Hudson, I too have a first run BLI Hudson that had problems, but those problems were solved with a QSI upgrade chip. It seems that BLI is acknowledging a fault with the geared driver wheelset, yet they will do nothing to rectify their error.