NP2626 Are any of you coming to the same conclusions?
Are any of you coming to the same conclusions?
Absolutely.
While some will surely reply in defense of steam, they are a real pain in the neck. The biggest problem is that they are prone to derailment. Yeah, I know, it is my track work. But, I have spent years improving my track work and, while the derailments have greatly diminished, diesel is clearly more reliable than steam.
If I ever build my Dream Layout, passenger operations at Dearborn Station in Chicago in the 1950's, I will probably dump my 11 steamers on eBay.
Rich
Alton Junction
Same here - I learned the problems the Steamers had way back in the late 70's!
Now I know the newer stuff works a whole lot better than they did back then.
BUT!
I am into OPs and do allow some Operators to run Steam on my layout on special occasions!
I find they they still have problems doing anything other than mainline running.
And they still have problems with turnouts even #8s !
So I have never regretted leaving them behind.
And besides they would not fit into my 70s to 80s era layout anyway.
BOB H - Clarion, PA
I guess when/if I finally make the decision to sell off the steamers I'm considering getting rid of, it will be my newer ones. My Roundhouse MDC kit built 10 wheelers and 0-6-0 switcher, my Rivarossi Mike and PFM Samhongsa Y1 Consolidation, I will keep.
Rich, I agree, it could be my track work, however, I have worked on it and worked on it over the years and some problem places are only a problem for one particular steamer and everything else works just fine! Although it certainly can be my track work, the fact that it is only one locomotive that has a problem with it leads me to believe it's a failure of that particular locomotive!
NP 2626 "Northern Pacific, really terrific"
Northern Pacific Railway Historical Association: http://www.nprha.org/
cmrproducts Same here - I learned the problems the Steamers had way back in the late 70's! I am into OPs and do allow some Operators to run Steam on my layout on special occasions! I find they they still have problems doing anything other than mainline running.
Wow, now that is a telling statement.
My BRVRR is a transition era railroad so I run both steam and diesel routinely. I do not do very much in the way of operations as most of my personal steamers, a Hudson, Niagara, and Mikado, are intended for mainline operations.
My grandson, however, is a steam fanatic. His locos run the gambit from a UP Challenger down to little Bachmann tank engines.
With a few exceptions, most notably the small tank engines, we have very little trouble with derailments, on the mainline, sidings, or in the reverse loop. It does happen occasionally but not enough to discourage the use of the steamers.
While most of my diesels are transition era F7s, early GPs and RSs, I have several larger diesel locos, E7s, E8s, PAs, FP45s and SD40s. There are even a few modern AMTRAC Genesis locos.
In my experience the reliability and track-ability of our locomotive fleet is about equal between steam and diesel. But, the maintenance time required by the steamers and their initial cost, is quite a bit higher than their brethren.
Remember its your railroad
Allan
Track to the BRVRR Website: http://www.brvrr.com/
just go give you guys a "heads up" when you start trying to duplicate prototype operations you may also find that cabooses can be a royal pain.
Charlie
I have to admit that I am the opposite. I have very few diesels mostly early ALCO's and Baldwins with a few GP's and SD's. While I love running steam I have shied away to buying the largest steam that most model manufactures are shoving out to us. I do have one Y3 in PRR paint. I am like the prototype and run the bread and butter 0-6-0, 2-6-0, and 2-8-0 in just about every location and leave the big guys to drag and push freight on the mains. All my passenger trains are pulled by 4-6-2, and 4-8-2 with a rare T1 4-4-4-4 out front. Mainline freight is handled with multiple 2-10-0 and 2-10-4 locos.
There is nothing like it when you run a pair of decapods on the front of a sixty car train with a pair behind pushing on the clubs long uphill climb. Whistles blowing, cylinders barking, rods turning and crowds watching. All that's missing is the smell of acrid smoke and steam mist raining down. As a plus to this scenario I also get 2 switching moves. One at the bottom of the hill pulling the cabin and running around it to add the pushers in front. and another at the top of the hill putting the cabin back behind the last car.
Most people run into problems with steamers when they use them for jobs they were not designed for. I would never use my T1 for switching passenger cars. I use an 0-6-0 for that and the T1 couples on only when the train is ready to go.
If you don't want your steamers anymore send them my way.
Pete
I pray every day I break even, Cause I can really use the money!
I started with nothing and still have most of it left!
You can take my steam away from me when you can pry it from my cold, dead hands.
:)
Two seasons in my Canada, Modelling and Paintball.
I use my steamers where they would have prototypically run. Having been in the hobby since the 1960s and built my share of steam kits and done my share of steam kit bashing, for people to think I am a neophyte; or, that I can't use a logical sequence, to trouble shoot problems when they have arisen, is a mistake! I have done all of these things and the conclusion I have come to (above) is that I no longer feel the endeavor worthwhile!
I have retired, I have fought the good fight, I was a skilled tool & die maker and tool & die designer. The computer and CAD-CAM has superseded the need for these skills. What I mean to say here is: In retirement, I hope to simplify my life.
Those of you who want to continue running and continuing to purchase Steam Locomotives certainly have my blessing! I am interested in what you are finding as good equipment in HO Steam Locomotives; however, excuse me for only being interested in reading about it, as I have been there and done that!
Nobody here is attempting to take anyones steam locos away from them!
I had brass steamers when I was in my teens in the early 60s and after that I've had very few steam engines..I guess the steam bug never got a good grip on me even those I witness the last days of steam in the mid 50s..IIRC the last steamer in Columbus (Ohio) had its fire dropped in '58.
Of late I had passing thoughts of buying a steamer but,I doubt if that will ever become a reality due to the reported problems.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
charlie9 just go give you guys a "heads up" when you start trying to duplicate prototype operations you may also find that cabooses can be a royal pain. Charlie
Only if you allow that..As a brakeman I never seen a caboose get in the way.
Although attempting to operate prototypically is what I am doing right now, I've never had problems with my cabooses. What Royal Pains have you had?
in response to your post about cabooses and my attitude toward them;
this only counts if you play mind games with your operations and i am sure many of us do.
1-the cab must be taken to the cab track upon arrival or at least set over out of the way since we don't want to switch with it next to the engine.
2-the cab must be switched out and pulled from the cab track so it can be tacked onto the outbound train.
3-older wooden cabs must be carefully handled when shoving cuts to avoid crushing them. (see TRRA shelter cabs)
4-if your road has assigned cabeese, the fifo system must be applied which requires a lot of switching or at least a double ended caboose track.
5-road crews are continually complaining about the condition of the very pool caboose they trashed coming in. (in HO scale you can barely hear them shout)
6-cabeese are the second most expensive piece of rolling stock on my railroad after locomotives.
7-they generate absolutely no revenue unless you are running mixed trains or smuggling something..
8-they are the most costly piece of equipment to maintain after locomotives.
9-they are where most personal injuries occur to crew members. (personal injury settlements are paid in HO scale dollars so that takes the edge off)
10-they are a hiding place for yard clerks and car knockers, especially in cold or wet weather.
now for the upside.
A-they give my little spectrum 0-8-0 something to do since it can barely pull it's own tender.
B-their absence tells me the train broke in two while going through the adjacent room.
C-they do look neat.
D-I haven't figured out how to rig a tail hose for shoving in HO scale yet.
be happy in your work
I run 90% steam from BLI, Rivarossi, PCM (BLI), Proto 200 Heritage, Trix, Lionel HO, and Sunset Brass Models. The rest comprise the following: Proto 2000 SW8, Proto 2000 FA2/FB2, Atlas Trainmaster H24-66, and two Athearn Genesis SD-75M's. Those SD-75's gave me as many fits on my last layout as the one steamer that made me rip up 3' of track, relay it, and reballast and weather it...my BLI Brass Hybrid Union Pacific 2-10-2. I checked the poor-reputation trucks for being twisted on a shiny flat counter-top. Nada. When I saw that they were nice and straight, the inevitable conclusion was that my outer rails on the two curves, in small arcs, were lower than I had accepted they were based on steamer performance....all ten of them at that time.
So, diesels have a way of humbling smug people who think they have their rails beaten into submission. (My hand is up.)
Secondly, I don't run any of my steamers much. My longest serving one, the BLI Hudson with QSI, has perhaps 3 running hours on it. So, I have yet to experience the disappointment of a steamer that suddenly needs some serious attention...unless I drop three of them off a shelf....happened to me.
Lastly, I couldn't imagine being in the hobby without at least one steamer. I grew up around steam, and that is what keeps me in the hobby. It's not to say I don't grealy admire the brutish looks of an SD70ACe: I do, and would love to have one. I won't part with any one of my steamers for it, though. In hobby terms, it would be like selling one of my kids. Unthinkable.
Crandell
This is a question that's near to my heart. My prototype ran steam, long after they started buying diesels, up until they sold it off in 1980 -- and the Silverton is a long way from a last run still.
I have standard, narrowgauge, and dual-gauge track. I have the standard issue of not quite as much room as I'd like, but was able to maintain a 28" min radius on the SG main. But there just wasn't enough room for my Durango engine service facilities to be dual-gauge without really cramping things. I decided that the narrowgauge would run both steam and diesel, reflecting more traffic and a Rio Grande willing to invest in its NG system. But SG is all diesel, perhaps better reflecting real life. I still may take the plunge for a SG steamer some day, especially if Blackstone decides to move forward with a Rio Grande SG steamer as their motive power survey seemed to indicate.
Blackstone, hmmmm? you say. Yes, in a nutshell, if you've not had the chance to operate any of their wonderful K-27 and C-19 locos, you don't know what you're missing. In fact, you'd be wondering what all the fuss is about steam not running as well as diesel. In any case, Blackstone sets the bar for what we should expect in terms of steam loco performance.
Blackstone's locos are built by Kader. Bachmann is one of Kader's brands and it's obvious improvements have been great over the last decade. If you haven't seen some of the B-mann's stuff lately, it's obvious that the Blackstone has raised the bar and others have decided to try to keep up, which is of benefit to the consumer. Frankly, if B-mann sells a loco that's 80% of what Blackstone builds into theirs, you'll still have a darn fine loco -- and it shows in recent B-mann offerings, which even more amazingly cost about half of what a Blackstone sells for due to the economies of scale in standard gauge.
Brass can be finicky and some of them are and always will be a basket cases. On the other hand, I've installed Tsunami's in 3 brass HOn3 steam locos and they are darn near the equal of my Blackstones now that they're tuned and tweaked. That does take skills -- and maybe even a little voodoo
Nah, no deal with the devil is really necessary. What does the trick is putting wipers on everything but the loco lead and trailing trucks.
I'll agree that diesel models tend to run well, even straight out of the box. But steam is out there and worth the trouble if you want to run it.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
NP2626Are any of you coming to the same conclusions?
Dr. Frankendiesel aka Scott Running BearSpace Mouse for president!15 year veteran fire fighterCollector of Apple //e'sRunning Bear EnterprisesHistory Channel Club life member.beatus homo qui invenit sapientiam
I think I will mention a sweet little 2-8-2 I had in 89/90.
At best it would pull 12 factory weigh Athearn 34' hopper cars around the Galion club's layout since it had a 2% grade and the engine was light.
I had to cut the wires to the smoke unit since I didn't want the smoke.
I paid a whooping $35.00 for this engine at the Berea train show.
It was a IHC 2-8-2.
For the price paid it ran flawlessly.
Well, I grew up with steam in the 'forties and most of the 'fifties, so that's what I have always been attracted to. My great-uncle was a brakeman on the Espee, and my first train ride was in the cab of an AC-6 Cab Forward helper locomotive over Donner Pass in 1946.
My own MR is about 98% steam, with 1 F-3 ABBA diesel and one E6 ABB diesel set and that's it. Everything else encompasses steam from 2-8-0's up to 2-8-8-4's. Mostly brass. Mostly re-worked and re-balanced and re-motored to optimum effiency. And yes, tinkered with. I'm my own roundhouse and shop, LOL, and for me, that's half of the fun of owning steam. My oldest brass locos are probably older than some of our forum members, but they still keep running along smooth, quiet, powerful and sweet. For me, the esthetics outweigh the maintenance.
Not to start an argument, and this is strictly a personal opinion, but most diesels to me are just flat out boring. More efficient, yes. But boring. I'd much rather watch a clanking steamer than a humming diesel.
And since I'm 73, I doubt that I'll be converting to diesel. I've got too many steamers I like to run.
Tom
Tom View my layout photos! http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/mm310/TWhite-014/Rio%20Grande%20Yuba%20River%20Sub One can NEVER have too many Articulateds!
I used to have mostly steam. Got my layout running and now I have more 1st gen diesel. Some modern steam runs great. My Proto 2000 0-6-0 and 0-8-0, no problem, Spectrum, can run just as good with a lot of their problem being in their wiring harness, it needs to be positioned correctly to run great. Got rid of all my MDC except for some shays that run great, also still have some Rivarossi That run great that I turned down the flanges on (I run code 70 and some 18" radius curves).
I am modeling a very specific place at a very specific time, with the locos (steam, diesel and catenary) that were there then. If my estate executor will have a problem with that...
And, no, I don't find myself running more diesels than steam, or compromising the action I saw in 1964 in any other way.
As for maintenance, I look on that as a scheduled, routine activity - not a sudden need to fix a problem.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - with the locos I saw there)
Well, no, I don't think I would ever stop modeling steam, especially with locos as good as they are now.
Back in the 60's and 70's you might have had a point here, but not now.
I would suggest that many people have problems with steam for two reasons - poor trackwork and curves and turnouts that are too sharp for the locos they buy.
My curves are 36" radius and above. Any turnout that a mainline size steam loco runs on is #6 or larger.
All my curves have easements. All my grades are smoothly transitioned into.
And even with those track standards I restrict the rigid wheel base of the steam locos I buy to about 20 scale feet. I only have one exception, I do have one Spectrum USRA 2-10-2 which has a rigid wheelbase of 21'.
This means no 2-12-2's, or 80" drivered 4-8-4's like a GS4, or similar monsters of the rails.
As Crandel pointed out, modern long wheelbase diesels with 3 or4 axle trucks can be just as problematic as any steam loco.
All my diesels are 1st generation and most ride on B-B trucks.
Are model steam locos a little "fussy" - YES - just read again my post about "improving Bachmann locos". Are they always perfect out of the box - no, but a lot of diesels aren't either. But for me, those little details, once worked out, are never a problem later.
A little extra tender weight, a slighly improved drawbar, some BullFrogSnot or extra weight for pulling power - no big deal, just part of the fun for me.
I like diesels too, an ABBA set of Alco FA's is a cool sight at the head of a 50 car freight train - but so are three Spectrum 2-8-0's or a pair of heavy Mountains.
Sheldon
Hi,
I've been playing with trains - steam & diesel - since the mid 1950s. Model steam locos have always been more particular and demanding and less forgiving than diesels. It is simply the nature of the beast.
I'm pushing 69, and with the proper tools, lighting, magnifiers, and patience, I can still work on both. But it is rather obvious that at some point, the steamers will end up on display...........
ENJOY !
Mobilman44
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
I'm gonna hold onto my 3 steamers and maybe get more just because I enjoy watching them run, besides can't run the pre BN merger roads without some steam. besides I love my GS4, not a BN road but it's still pretty darn cool.
SP&S modeler, 1960's give or take a decade or two for some equipment.
http://www.youtube.com/user/SGTDUPREY?feature=guide
Gary DuPrey
N scale model railroader
Burlington Northern #24 I'm gonna hold onto my 3 steamers and maybe get more just because I enjoy watching them run, besides can't run the pre BN merger roads without some steam.
I'm gonna hold onto my 3 steamers and maybe get more just because I enjoy watching them run, besides can't run the pre BN merger roads without some steam.
CB&Q, N.P. S.P. &S. and G.N. (the pre-B.N. merged lines) basically ran for probably close to 15 years after the fires were dropped from their steam locomotives. This would get you from 1st generation diesels to SD45s, U25Cs and U28Cs.
NP2626 Burlington Northern #24 I'm gonna hold onto my 3 steamers and maybe get more just because I enjoy watching them run, besides can't run the pre BN merger roads without some steam. CB&Q, N.P. S.P. &S. and G.N. (the pre-B.N. merged lines) basically ran for probably close to 15 years after the fires were dropped from their steam locomotives. This would get you from 1st generation diesels to SD45s, U25Cs and U28Cs.
Well, I had originally intended to set up my layout so that it could represent one in either the late '40s-early '50s or the mid-'70s. In addition to changing the locos, rolling stock, and vehicles, some structures would have been changed out for ones suitable to each period.When I finally realised that that was an overly-ambitious plan for someone who worked so slowly, I got rid of all my '70s rolling stock , almost all of the diesels, and much of the '50s rolling stock, too. What rolling stock that was left I re-worked into more suitable models for a late '30s layout, and except for a diesel-powered doodlebug, it's 100% steam.All of the steam has been modified in one way or another to make it operate better and more reliably, and I also have a somewhat regular maintenance programme. My steamers, like Sheldon's, are moderately-sized locos suited to the layout, and are mostly from Bachmann or Athearn. The mainline locos (Mikes and Consolidations) do all the switching chores along the route, and operate almost completely without problems.
While there are a lot of very tempting diesels being offered nowadays, management is firmly committed to steam.
Wayne
buildings would probably remain the same because there's a lot of steam era structures still standing in tenino, bucoda, and centralia. vehicles and rolling stock would have to be swapped but it would be worth it. NP in your original post you noted that steam was slightly more expensive than diesels, I agree steam in N scale is usually in the triple digits though my Light mountain was a steal at $70. I looked at how much Z scale steam was, I died those things go into the 4 digit #'s.
With the apparent reliability of modern HO steamers I'm half tempted to backdate my fleet to an all steam roster, except I like Baldwin Sharknoses too much, so guess I'll stick to the "transition era."
Cheers, the Bear.
"One difference between pessimists and optimists is that while pessimists are more often right, optimists have far more fun."
"JaBear" With the apparent reliability of modern HO steamers I'm half tempted to backdate my fleet to an all steam roster, except I like Baldwin Sharknoses too much, so guess I'll stick to the "transition era." Cheers, the Bear.
My experience with the reliability of modern HO Steamers is obviously quite different than some of yours. Although I haven't found a whole lot to buy of modern steam, given that I need Northern Pacific. What I have bought has not been reliable and certainly was not cheap, by any means.
We've already gone down the road arguing about the quality and reliability of modern steam equipment. I have no doubt those of you who believe that modern steam offerings are better, have your valid reasons for believing so. My opinion, based on my years in the hobby and my mechanical abilities is different; but, just as valid. Some of you claim to never have problems with anything, maybe thinking that espousing this position makes you look superior to all of the rest of us and for me at least, leaves me with the opinion that your opinions are really not worth reading.
I love steam engines and am very interested and will continue to be interested in them. However, I have soured on them from a modeling standpoint, feeling they are unreliable, too fragile and far to expensive. Heck, I don't like the prices of diesels, either; but, the manufacturers are getting what their asking, so what are we going to do?
May I add...........
The newer offerings of steam locos are like the newer offerings of autos (real)..................
When working, they are MUCH better than previous models. But, todays selections are MUCH more complicated than the early ones.
Like so many electronic devices (and our fancy locos are just that), they either work, or they don't.
But it all comes down to this.......... If you want them, get them. If you don't, then don't. I certainly would not blame you or praise you or criticize you for doing either.
For me.......... my BLI ATSF Northern is absolutely the greatest!
I'm 69 and for some reason have never been all that crazy about steam locos. Oh, I have several ranging from a 3 truck Shay to a Norfolk and Western 2-6-6-4 Class A. In between are a Consolidations and Mikados Out of all those my favorite is the Bachmann 2-8-0 Consolidation.
But a few years ago I noticed that I started favoring diesels, anything from small switchers to the big SD 70m2 that I own. Maybe it's because thats what I see out on the real railroads, maybe it's because there are 'usually' less wheels to deal with.
I don't know, probably never will.
Oh, I forgot to mention I mostly model the transition era give or take 50 years.,...
NP2626 "JaBear" With the apparent reliability of modern HO steamers I'm half tempted to backdate my fleet to an all steam roster, except I like Baldwin Sharknoses too much, so guess I'll stick to the "transition era." Cheers, the Bear. My experience with the reliability of modern HO Steamers is obviously quite different than some of yours. Although I haven't found a whole lot to buy of modern steam, given that I need Northern Pacific. What I have bought has not been reliable and certainly was not cheap, by any means. We've already gone down the road arguing about the quality and reliability of modern steam equipment. I have no doubt those of you who believe that modern steam offerings are better, have your valid reasons for believing so. My opinion, based on my years in the hobby and my mechanical abilities is different; but, just as valid. Some of you claim to never have problems with anything, maybe thinking that espousing this position makes you look superior to all of the rest of us and for me at least, leaves me with the opinion that your opinions are really not worth reading. I love steam engines and am very interested and will continue to be interested in them. However, I have soured on them from a modeling standpoint, feeling they are unreliable, too fragile and far to expensive. Heck, I don't like the prices of diesels, either; but, the manufacturers are getting what their asking, so what are we going to do?
As Andre and I have pointed out repeatedly, adjusted for inflation, most of today's models cost the same or less than their counterparts in the past. We cannot however alter your perception of price or value or change the dynamics of your personal economy.
In 1983 a Mantua Pacific was $66 - adjusted for inflation that is $152.00 today. You can still buy that loco new today, with a number of improvements but it is still "basic" in detail. It's retail price is $179.00 - BUT they can be had all day long, as many as you want for around $120, or $170 with sound - effectively in the same price range as 1983 but now it runs much better with can motor, better pickup, etc.
Minor problems or not, warranty replacements or not, minor "on site" adjustments or not, all my Bachmann, Proto, BLI/PCM, and even IHC locos run better than any steam loco I had in 1975 (Mantua, Varney, etc.).
And again, my experience is not just as a consumer, but as someone who worked in a hobby shop, did train repairs, and tested every new loco that left the hobby shop.
As to the issue of "fragile" - I build and operate model trains - they are fragile - if you want toy trains, Lionel, MTH, Model Power, Marklin and several others are in the business of making rugged toy trains - in O and HO.
I will keep the fragile fine detail on my trains thank you.
Sorry your experience has been different, and I'm sorry the NP has not been better represented, neither has the B&O and a host of other roads that would seem to be popular.
Atlantic Central summed it all up pretty well.............
I've also found a number of neat RRs under represented over the years, with the Illinois Central being one of them. Their big steamers with the ugly massive square sandboxes are available only in brass - if you can find/afford them. Yes, some of the model builders - even BLI - will take a generic model and slap "everybody's" name on them, whether appropriate or not. To me that is just wrong, but they must sell - and to the model mfgs, its a business.........
To paraphrase what I wrote earlier, it is what it is...... If we think the offerings are too expensive, too fragile, too generic, or just unreliable, there is nothing we can do to change that. If you don't like them, don't buy them. And if you buy them and don't like them, sell them on Ebay and don't buy anymore.
That's a neat thing about this hobby......... my likes/dislikes, rules or lack thereof are perfectly fine - for me. And I respect that same right for anyone else that has a piece of track and a loco..............
Gotta say........... haven't we had this conversation before? and before that? and before that??????
twhiteNot to start an argument, and this is strictly a personal opinion, but most diesels to me are just flat out boring. More efficient, yes. But boring. I'd much rather watch a clanking steamer than a humming diesel.
Y'know, I'll second Tom on this one. I have a thing for PAs -- those things are rolling art-deco eye-candy -- but watching even them run is a bit on the dry side. Steamers, high-maintenance though they may be, just have more going on. It keeps my gnat-like attention span from wandering.
Not that my signature leaves much doubt as to where my loyalties lay...
Stu
Streamlined steam, oh, what a dream!!
(tic)
Tom... Stu.., how can you call this beautiful, efficient machine BORING!! Look at its clean lines, its highly efficient ...... uh... windshield wipers! Its... its... toilet up front in the nose. Ok, you can't see that but it's there.
(at least I think it still is on an SD 70 M2)
No, it comes with the territory.
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge but imagination."-Albert Einstein
http://gearedsteam.blogspot.com/
I like and run both steam and diesels. Maybe it's the larger size, but my S scale locomotives don't give me any trouble as long as the curves aren't too tight.
Enjoy
Paul
jacon12 (tic) Tom... Stu.., how can you call this beautiful, efficient machine BORING!! Look at its clean lines, its highly efficient ...... uh... windshield wipers! Its... its... toilet up front in the nose. Ok, you can't see that but it's there. (at least I think it still is on an SD 70 M2)
Jacon:
Dang, forgot about the cab-toilet (we have to use the coal pile on the Yuba River Sub, lol). One thing I will say about that NS SD-whatzit is that NS has come up with some Heritage schemes that are INCREDIBLY handsome, unlike the UP "Heritage" units that look as if a fifth grader had a head-on collision with Picasso on a VERY bad day!
But I'm afraid that my heart still belongs to big, clanking beasties like this:
People people people.
Lets not turn this into another one of those steam vs. diesel threads. Or when is steam going to die type of conversations. Run what you feel comfortable running. It is your railroad, you are the boss, CEO, sometimes CFO, Superintendent of motive power and so on.
I will explain why I would rather have steam over diesels is maybe because I work on their smaller cousins everyday. Yes I have done some work on the large bore engines such as ALCO and early EMD engines used in large mining equipment. Steam locomotives were living breathing beasts of burden that turn the switch, push the button and go can never replace. There are some great looking internal combusted locomotives out there. I do have an AC4400 in the GE demonstrator scheme that looks great to me, but my mom hates it. She was forced to retire from GE and would rather never see the logo again.
I can understand why some people would like to run steam but have no idea about what to do when they do not run good. Some people don't know which end of the screw driver to use. We can not fault them. They never had to rely on ones self to tinker or do anything beyond putting the square block in the square hole. If you feel like you have done your time with putting all those wheels on the rails then the simple reality of difficulty will stifle your modeling for good. Maybe I am stubborn and giving up is not in my nature. Fight to the end I say!
Guys,If I may quote my grandpas..
Any darn fool that likes a steam engine never had to fired one of those fool things and the faster they are scrapped the better..
To be far shortly after PRR dropped the last fires my other grandpa retired saying "I'm not about to run a truck on rails."
So there you have it..Two old engineers with different points of view concerning a steam engine.
Needless to say as a kid I like seeing shiny new PRR and N&W GP9s and RS11s.
locoi1sa People people people. I can understand why some people would like to run steam but have no idea about what to do when they do not run good. Some people don't know which end of the screw driver to use. We can not fault them. They never had to rely on ones self to tinker or do anything beyond putting the square block in the square hole.
I can understand why some people would like to run steam but have no idea about what to do when they do not run good. Some people don't know which end of the screw driver to use. We can not fault them. They never had to rely on ones self to tinker or do anything beyond putting the square block in the square hole.
Pete, Pete, Pete,
Don't you think, maybe, that you are being just a bit harsh?
The thread is about maintenance and performance of steamers and whether it is worth it, not whether someone knows which end of the screw driver is the blade.
NP2626 I have however found that as I get older and similar to how the real railroads also found, that the higher maintenance of steamers is becoming less and less attractive and may well be selling off all but my most reliable and well built steam engines and taking the equity I had in the Steamers I sell and buying more 1st generation diesels. Are any of you coming to the same conclusions?
mobilman44my BLI ATSF Northern is absolutely the greatest!
jacon12 (tic) Tom... Stu.., how can you call this beautiful, efficient machine BORING!!
Tom... Stu.., how can you call this beautiful, efficient machine BORING!!
Texas Zepher mobilman44my BLI ATSF Northern is absolutely the greatest!I've got three of those (won one in a raffle) and one of the 2-10-2s also. I had trouble with one of the valve gear because a screw came loose and it was just sort of hanging there slopping back and forth. It eventually bound up. Simply re-aligned and tightened it up and been great ever since. They look so good on the point of a heavyweight or streamlined passenger set as well as a string of reefers.
I enjoy both steam and diesel, I missed two great eras but have come into one where modern diesels rule the rails. I love the way my SD70Mac and my AC4400CW look, to be honest I feel like they fit in with my mismatched fleet.
NP2626 ......Some of you claim to never have problems with anything, maybe thinking that espousing this position makes you look superior to all of the rest of us and for me at least, leaves me with the opinion that your opinions are really not worth reading. I love steam engines and am very interested and will continue to be interested in them. However, I have soured on them from a modeling standpoint, feeling they are unreliable, too fragile and far to expensive. Heck, I don't like the prices of diesels, either; but, the manufacturers are getting what their asking, so what are we going to do?
......Some of you claim to never have problems with anything, maybe thinking that espousing this position makes you look superior to all of the rest of us and for me at least, leaves me with the opinion that your opinions are really not worth reading.
Speaking of which. Has anyone used one of the new Bachmann 2-6-0 locos?
Texas Zepher Speaking of which. Has anyone used one of the new Bachmann 2-6-0 locos?
Several folks acknowledged that their trackwork is why they can't get steam to stay on the rails, so they don't run it.
Folks, track is the most basic element of a model railroad. If it's only so-so,everything else on your layout may be a craftsman's dream, but overall your layout will never be better than so-so.
A few layouts (and too many years) ago I had derailment problems out the wazoo. One day I got fed up with rerailing things constantly, and made a promise to myself to never again consider mediocre trackwork to be "good enough." I started over on a new layout, and was pleasantly surprised to find that laying track that worked was not all that hard! For a couple of weeks I had to remind myself to be diligent in laying and checking track and turnouts, but very quickly that became second nature. The result is that derailments are rare in my model world, and steam shows no more propensity to leave the rails than my non-steam equipment.
IF I CAN DO IT, IT CAN'T BE THAT HARD.
If laying good track is difficult, go after it! Work on it and make trackwork one your basic, best modeling skills. Take it from someone who knows - laying good track can become easy to do, and it pays huge dividends in terms of increased enjoyment when the trains are runnign and yiou don't have to stop to rerail something every few minutes.
Sorry - didn't mean to change the subject.
Mark P.
Website: http://www.thecbandqinwyoming.comVideos: https://www.youtube.com/user/mabrunton
NP2626 "JaBear" With the apparent reliability of modern HO steamers I'm half tempted to backdate my fleet to an all steam roster, except I like Baldwin Sharknoses too much, so guess I'll stick to the "transition era." Cheers, the Bear. We've already gone down the road arguing about the quality and reliability of modern steam equipment. I have no doubt those of you who believe that modern steam offerings are better, have your valid reasons for believing so. My opinion, based on my years in the hobby and my mechanical abilities is different; but, just as valid. Some of you claim to never have problems with anything, maybe thinking that espousing this position makes you look superior to all of the rest of us and for me at least, leaves me with the opinion that your opinions are really not worth reading.
You,Sir, started an interesting post which has had a good response of varying but generally considered opinions, though I must admit while my offering was perhaps a little trite, I really am at a loss how it brought about this rant! I only hope that gun collecting is not one of your hobbies as I would be concerned that you'd probably shoot yourself in the foot.
Yours humbly, the Bear.
Brunton Folks, track is the most basic element of a model railroad. If it's only so-so,everything else on your layout may be a craftsman's dream, but overall your layout will never be better than so-so.
Mark,If I may and I'm certainly not advocating bad track laying habits since good track work means derailment free operation..
Where diesels shine is they're far more forgiving then steam will ever be when it comes to less then stellar track work simple because a diesel truck can "float" unlike a steam engines' drivers.
BRAKIE Brunton Folks, track is the most basic element of a model railroad. If it's only so-so,everything else on your layout may be a craftsman's dream, but overall your layout will never be better than so-so. Mark,If I may and I'm certainly not advocating bad track laying habits since good track work means derailment free operation.. Where diesels shine is they're far more forgiving then steam will ever be when it comes to less then stellar track work simple because a diesel truck can "float" unlike a steam engines' drivers.
I agree with Brunton, and I agree with Brakie.
Brunton, there is no doubt that you are correct. Make your track work bullet proof, and by that I mean 100 percent flawless, and your steamers will probably not derail.
Brakie is also correct in that diesels are far more forgiving than steam when running over faulty track work.
After 10 years in the hobby and plenty of time and effort in laying track, I am still not skilled enough to lay "bullet proof" track work.
So, I prefer diesels over steam, and if I had it to do over, I would not include steam on my layout. Just not worth it.
METHINKS this thread is degenerating rapidly...........
Just a glance at the title tells us that it is a pathway to another endless "discussion".
Does anyone out there really care if someone else prefers steamers or diesels over the other?
mobilman44 METHINKS this thread is degenerating rapidly........... Just a glance at the title tells us that it is a pathway to another endless "discussion". Does anyone out there really care if someone else prefers steamers or diesels over the other?
METHINKS you are contributing to the degeneration of this thread, oilman.
Let's just say that this discussion is lively, as it should be. There are few conversations where everyone agrees. The ones in which that does happen are pretty boring.
Speaking of track work and making it 'bullet proof'....., I've been around a few layouts, mine included.. and I've noticed that no matter how great the track work, given the nature of turnouts, roadbed, substructures, heat and humidity, glue failure et all, even the best laid plans of mice and men,... er uh model railroaders, it seems that it doesn't stay bullet proof forever and amen.
I know there are places on my layout that I just KNEW were first class A OK smooth as silk. Years later I'm looking at the track with a magnifying glass, running my finger over a rail joint wondering "what the heck is going on here" Thing is, if your layout is big enough and you have track on enough curves, hard to reach places, going up inclines... not to mention turnouts, cutting rail to install bridge track, the odds are you're going to have a problem now and then.
Some modelers seem to have this unreasonable dislike for diesels of any sort and get pretty argumentative about it. I'd personally like to see more young people get into the hobby if nothing else than to help keep prices down and competition among mfgs up. These less-than-thirty somethings didn't grow up around steam engines. The only ones they're familiar with are in museums and the movies. Throw in an occasional visit to a places that actually has and runs them. Railroading, to them, IS SD 70's and the like. They model what they see every day and what they grew up with. Granted, I believe the majority of those that profess to not liking diesels are doing it good naturedly and may even have 2 or 3 running around on their 1940s themed layout...
Me... I like'em all! From 4-4-0 steamers to the big modern equipment..
Oh yes.... the model railroad industry just LOVES guys like me!
jacon12 I've been around a few layouts, mine included.. and I've noticed that no matter how great the track work, given the nature of turnouts, roadbed, substructures, heat and humidity, glue failure et all, even the best laid plans of mice and men,... er uh model railroaders, it seems that it doesn't stay bullet proof forever and amen.
With respect I gotta totally disagree with that..I can run my trains for hours during the open houses and the week of the county fair with zero derailments and the club's layouts sit in a unheated block building 6 days a week in Ohio's grab bag weather..There is more remodeling then track maintenance..
Now all of my past ISLs was derailment free but,these was in a controlled environment.
mobilman44Does anyone out there really care if someone else prefers steamers or diesels over the other?
Nope.
Geared Steam mobilman44Does anyone out there really care if someone else prefers steamers or diesels over the other? Nope.
track laying,far from my best MRRing skill . It's going to take a while for me to get my track perfect but this time around I will have power wires so I can test it before I glue it down.
Burlington Northern #24 track laying,far from my best MRRing skill . It's going to take a while for me to get my track perfect but this time around I will have power wires so I can test it before I glue it down.
I found the real secrete of good tracking laying is taking your time and keep eyeballing your progress.The eyeball and finger test over joints works wonders and cures the rework blues.
Another favorite is to push 2-3 cars over the track work and through switches.
My methods might be old school but,they still work..
Brakie,
You are absolutely right. NOTHING is a better test of track laying than a "good eye", rubbing a finger (carefully) along the track, and rolling difficult cars/locos thru derailment prone situations.
Really, we can not overstate the importance of good solid trackwork. In my case, very, very few of the 80-90 locos I've owned over the last 15 years were problems into themselves. Difficulties were almost always due to faulty trackwork.
And that's the truth...............................
mobilman44Really, we can not overstate the importance of good solid trackwork.
Absolutely!
Carefully laid track.correct coupler and trip pin height plus wheels in gauge= derailment free operation.That's been my mantra over the years.I won't accept anything less then 100% derailment free operation and it isn't that hard to obtain.
BRAKIE Burlington Northern #24 track laying,far from my best MRRing skill . It's going to take a while for me to get my track perfect but this time around I will have power wires so I can test it before I glue it down. I found the real secrete of good tracking laying is taking your time and keep eyeballing your progress.The eyeball and finger test over joints works wonders and cures the rework blues. Another favorite is to push 2-3 cars over the track work and through switches. My methods might be old school but,they still work..
Gary,I'm going to go against the gain and say to drop the track nails,caulk etc and give spikes a try..I use O Scale spikes for HO and HO spikes for N Scale since I want long spikes for better anchorage and the ballast glue will help hold the track..I spike every third or fourth tie.
Old school? You betcha but,it still works..
Part of the problems with steamers is that older designs had pretty poor electrical pick up. Quite often only from one side of the drivers and the other side of the tender.
By either the manufacturer or modeler adding power pickups on all drivers and all tender wheels, the reliability of steamer increases tremendously.
If you think about it, the rigid wheel base of most 6 coupled engines is the same or smaller than the rigid wheelbase of a 6 axle diesel. An 0-6-0 might have a wheelbase that's less than and RSC2. What's typically different is the power pick up.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
To me, the biggest problem with steamers, bar none, is the design of the pilot truck and trailing truck.
These two trucks, located at the front and rear of the engine, are much more prone to derailments than the drivers. There is often insufficient weight to hold them down on the rails, and they are mounted onto the chassis with a single screw, making them way too floppy.
BRAKIE Gary,I'm going to go against the gain and say to drop the track nails,caulk etc and give spikes a try..I use O Scale spikes for HO and HO spikes for N Scale since I want long spikes for better anchorage and the ballast glue will help hold the track..I spike every third or fourth tie. Old school? You betcha but,it still works..
as for steamers, my northerns power pick ups are limited to lead and trailing trucks and it's kinda hard to work with which is why after adding weight to the tender I was considering adding pickups to the tenders trucks the problem there is that I think the trucks and wheels are slightly out of gauge as it doesn't roll smoothly.
Edit: nevermind I'm going to test the wheel gauges with my NMRA gauge.
BRAKIE I found the real secrete of good tracking laying is taking your time and keep eyeballing your progress.The eyeball and finger test over joints works wonders and cures the rework blues. Another favorite is to push 2-3 cars over the track work and through switches. My methods might be old school but,they still work..
I agree and would add
Make sure your roadbed is smooth before laying any track - fix any dips or humps.
Hook up some power with alligator clips and run some engines as part of your testing - your biggest and your shortest.
Only do a little at a time and test.
Fix or redo any part that's not 100% - multiple times if necessary.
Yes, similar to the original poster, I was not there during the end of steam, but my whole life I was fascinated by steam locomotives--as were my children when they were small.
I have owned and played with lots of fine HO brass steamers and also the more recent Genesis, BLI, Bachmann and MTH offerings (all heavy on the big articulateds).
Many of them were great. Some also had great sound. A few even smoked, too.
Eventually my children tired of the basic boring black paint jobs and wanted something more colorful and/or closer to what we commonly see--as did I myself. Eventually we grew tired of the "special care and feeding" always required with steam power--no matter how good my trackwork was.
So, yes I dieselized...did the "all Alco" thing for awhile, because I have also always liked Alco Centuries...
However, I have read enough of prototype railroad history to know the real history of Alco in the diesel era, and regardless of how a few very zealous Alco devotees who still operate and maintain them might want to spin the history, they did not hold up as well or run as economically as the EMD SD40 and SD45 series engines. If they had been truly competitive, they'd still be around...It is a classic, textbook lesson of how not to manage an American company (or any company).
So now in addition to having dieselized, I have purged to a 1970's-80's roster that is Alco-free, too. That doesn't mean I don't like Alcos--I still do--I just don't need them on my railroad. "My" railroad would have opted for EMD's during that era.
As for the steam power, I can love and appreciate all the big articulateds from so many railroads, and the 2-10-4's, can quote you all kinds of obscure statistics, the differences between an L-131 and an L-132, etc., but as far as I'm concerned it was all so long ago now, and I'm simply opting to leave steam to the history books. My last steam engines (ironically little updated Roundhouse 2-6-0 and 2-8-0 engines) are still out for consignment sale at a local train store. Even at very reasonable pricing, they are sitting there in the glass case with the better quality new diesels--the steamers are mint, like new--and unsold.
I think I'll never see the money out of them at this point.
John
Brunton Several folks acknowledged that their trackwork is why they can't get steam to stay on the rails, so they don't run it. Folks, track is the most basic element of a model railroad. If it's only so-so,everything else on your layout may be a craftsman's dream, but overall your layout will never be better than so-so. A few layouts (and too many years) ago I had derailment problems out the wazoo. One day I got fed up with rerailing things constantly, and made a promise to myself to never again consider mediocre trackwork to be "good enough." I started over on a new layout, and was pleasantly surprised to find that laying track that worked was not all that hard! For a couple of weeks I had to remind myself to be diligent in laying and checking track and turnouts, but very quickly that became second nature. The result is that derailments are rare in my model world, and steam shows no more propensity to leave the rails than my non-steam equipment. IF I CAN DO IT, IT CAN'T BE THAT HARD. If laying good track is difficult, go after it! Work on it and make trackwork one your basic, best modeling skills. Take it from someone who knows - laying good track can become easy to do, and it pays huge dividends in terms of increased enjoyment when the trains are runnign and yiou don't have to stop to rerail something every few minutes. Sorry - didn't mean to change the subject.
I feel that this thread has turned away from my assertion that steam is more maintenance prone, to problems with track work. Although I certainly agree that track-work should be as close to 100% imperfection free as possible, I don't see this as what is going on, on my layout!
My track work problems have been corrected where I found problems for multiple locos; or, rolling stock. My work on my track has been constant and on-going. My minimum radius is 22 inches and I feel this is generally too tight for all but the smallest steam locomotives. When I chose that radius, almost every steam locomotive for sale at that time (1988) advertised that it would do very well on 22 inches. On the mainline all my switches, are # 6s.
I've been involved in this hobby longer than most people have been in the hobby today. My mechanical background and abilities are likely as good as anyone involved in the hobby! I'm not taking offense at Brunton's suggestion that track work needs to be of the highest quality and would gladly take suggestions on what to check. To date, very little of it has been ballasted, so changing things would be fairly easy! So, if you have suggestions, I would really love to hear them, other than increasing the radius, as this would mean starting over (which might not be out of the question).
Here is how my track-work has been performed: My 22 inch radius curves all have spiral easements at each end. There is super-elevation on visible curves. I have found that some of my super-elevation was to much and caused the derailment of some cars and locos and it was decreased where I found this to be a problem. Since super-elevation in model railroads is really a scenic effect, I have not super-elevated track that is hidden. All vertical transitions have easements. My track is all code 100 Atlas flex track and Atlas Customline #6 switches. I started the layout previous to code 83,70 and 55 being as available as they are today. (Unimportant to the quality of my track-work) I painted all rail and ties with roof brown paint, thereby appearing to visually reduce the size of the rail. My road bed is 1/2 inch plywood and all risers and joints are screwed and glued together. The risers are no more that 16 inches on centers.
I have watched numerous videos of large and small layouts alike where the track work has numerous kinks and other imperfections. I have spent considerable time improving my track by simply eye-balling it, to make sure it is fair. My track-work does not have any of these types of imperfections.
So, if you can think of problems I should be looking for, by all means, I am very interested and thank you for taking the time to make suggestions!
"JaBear" NP2626 "JaBear" With the apparent reliability of modern HO steamers I'm half tempted to backdate my fleet to an all steam roster, except I like Baldwin Sharknoses too much, so guess I'll stick to the "transition era." Cheers, the Bear. We've already gone down the road arguing about the quality and reliability of modern steam equipment. I have no doubt those of you who believe that modern steam offerings are better, have your valid reasons for believing so. My opinion, based on my years in the hobby and my mechanical abilities is different; but, just as valid. Some of you claim to never have problems with anything, maybe thinking that espousing this position makes you look superior to all of the rest of us and for me at least, leaves me with the opinion that your opinions are really not worth reading. You,Sir, started an interesting post which has had a good response of varying but generally considered opinions, though I must admit while my offering was perhaps a little trite, I really am at a loss how it brought about this rant! I only hope that gun collecting is not one of your hobbies as I would be concerned that you'd probably shoot yourself in the foot. Yours humbly, the Bear.
Although my comment on others speaking like they never have problems, occured in a response to your post, this part of my response was not directed at you. I appologize for this and understand how you could take it that way.
BRAKIE I found the real secrete of good tracking laying is taking your time and keep eyeballing your progress.The eyeball and finger test over joints works wonders and cures the rework blues.
The Mark I eyeball is the best track work tool there is. If it looks smooth it will run smooth.
Amen. The acid test Is to push a cut of cars through the track work at speed. It won't look pretty, but if you can push cars through trackwork at a scale 50-60 mph it will work fine under normal conditions.
By the way, those who say you can't run well with steamers, last night I had an op session with three Mantua 0-6-0's, two 4-4-0's (1 Spectrum, 1 Roundhouse), one Spectrum 4-6-0 and three Roundhose 2-8-0's. Ran 3 yard jobs, 4 passenger trains, a local, 4 through freights and cranked up an extra turn.
dehusman By the way, those who say you can't run well with steamers, last night I had an op session with three Mantua 0-6-0's, two 4-4-0's (1 Spectrum, 1 Roundhouse), one Spectrum 4-6-0 and three Roundhose 2-8-0's. Ran 3 yard jobs, 4 passenger trains, a local, 4 through freights and cranked up an extra turn.
Take note, that of the 9 steamers mentioned by Dave, none has a trailing truck and out of 18 possible trucks, both pilot and trailing, there are only six trucks on those 9 steamers.
That would seem to support the argument that I made earlier in this thread that the pilot trucks and trailing trucks are the leading cause of derailment on steamers. The relative absence of trucks on those 9 steamers may well be the reason for the lack of derailments.
My trackwork is certainly not "bulletproof" as I can see defects here and there, but.... IHC Mikado 2-8-2, Rivarossi 4-6-2 Pacific, two Rivarossi 0-8-0 yard goats, Athearn Genesis 4-6-6-4 Challenger, Bachmann 2-8-0 Consolidation and Bachmann 4-8-4. Minimum (and maximum due to size constraints) radius of 22", 3+% grades, turnouts are #4's= NO derailments
I have cured the "light tender" derailments when backing "long" cuts of cars, which has been my only issues. This has also contributed very positively to the Rivarossi's performance, ensuring better pickup from the tender.
I have a Bachmann Spectrum Shay that is finicky as all get out and will derail simply coming out of a turn and in places with no joints near. I can work issues out until that goes away, however as soon as cars are attached, derailments start again in new places. This all takes place on a seperate loop for that train.
I own no diesels or brass, nor have I yet to gt my hands on a gauge; to date I've used the Mark 1 eyeball, Mark 2 fingers, calipers, etc. These have been my experiences for what they are worth
Happy RR'ing, whether diesel, steam, or both
Duane
Marketing statements by manufacturers not withstanding, no competent model railroad authority, no well published author, not the NMRA, no track planning or model railroad "how to" book has ever suggested that that most steam locos would run on 22" radius.
Every long standing club, every NMRA RP, every book on track planning written in the last 6 decades on the subject suggests that 30" radius is a bare minimum for anything that resembles a "Class I mainline" steam locomotive and many recommend much larger than that - Paul Mallery suggested 48" as a minimum - I'm close to that.
This goes directly back to my original comments on this topic. You cannot expect steam locos to run well on small curves and tight turnouts.
And as to the assertion that pilot and trailing trucks are to blame, maybe so, but the real fault is still the track. Personally, I remove most of the pesky down pressure springs that are "supposed" to keep lead and trailing wheels on the track - and yet I still don't have derailments?
Why do I remove those springs? They reduce pulling power.
dehusman BRAKIE I found the real secrete of good tracking laying is taking your time and keep eyeballing your progress.The eyeball and finger test over joints works wonders and cures the rework blues. The Mark I eyeball is the best track work tool there is. If it looks smooth it will run smooth. Another favorite is to push 2-3 cars over the track work and through switches. Amen. The acid test Is to push a cut of cars through the track work at speed. It won't look pretty, but if you can push cars through trackwork at a scale 50-60 mph it will work fine under normal conditions. By the way, those who say you can't run well with steamers, last night I had an op session with three Mantua 0-6-0's, two 4-4-0's (1 Spectrum, 1 Roundhouse), one Spectrum 4-6-0 and three Roundhose 2-8-0's. Ran 3 yard jobs, 4 passenger trains, a local, 4 through freights and cranked up an extra turn.
Dave, I don't consider 0-6-0s, 4-4-0s, 4-6-0s or blind drivered 2-8-0s to be an addequate test of how well steam will run!
My MDC Roundhouse 0-6-0, 4-6-0s and 2-8-0 all work(ed) fine on my layout. It should be noted that these locomotives all have blind drivers in the middle (Drivers 2 on the 6 coupled and 2 & 3 on the 8 coupled. My assertion has been that it is the newer equipment that can give problems. Maybe I should clarify that by newer, I only mean stuff from 2000 tp 2003 as I have nothing newer. I feel that steam equipment now available, is too expensive.
As far as cost comparisons between what was available in the 1990s to what is available today, factoring inflation doesn't do an adequate enough job of explaining why things are more expensive, today. First of all, in my case, most of my locomotives were purchased as kits, which I put together and there are no currently available steam locomotive kits to compare with. Secondly, pushing the prices up are locomotives which include DCC and DCC with Sound, let alone that locomotives are far more detailed then they used to be.
In the end, it's up to the individual to decide what they can afford. I doubt that my considering the locomotives available today, as being too expensive, will influence anybody's decision to buy; or, not!
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Marketing statements by manufacturers not withstanding, no competent model railroad authority, no well published author, not the NMRA, no track planning or model railroad "how to" book has ever suggested that that most steam locos would run on 22" radius.
And that's not exactly true for some steam locomotives.
Actually small drivered engines like 4-4-0s, 2-6-0s, 2-6-2s,4-6-0s,2-8-0s and 2-8-2s will run on 18" radius curves since those are your basic steamers that came in train sets.IIRC AHM had a nice passenger set that featured their 4-6-2..
However,I don't think any of the above steamers would look good on anything less then a 26" curve but,that's just me.
100% derailment free? Whatever. I'd say that's unprototypical, because nothing is 100% in the real world. And even if your track is 100%, something else might not be, as we'll see in a moment.
I did my best to build bullet-proof track. It mostly is and that's a good thing, because there's plenty of it that is hidden. But it's a medium-sized layout (28x16) on a concrete floor in an area with relatively high ground water. It's just a fact that things shift a little over such large areas. I suspect if an ISL was that big, it'd probably not be quite 100% over time, either.
Since much of the layout is narrowgauge (HOn3), it's been another motivation for careful construction. HOn3 is a lot like running HO standardgauge on N scale track (at least within 1.5 mm close), so right there the bar is raised a little more on what works well and what just gets frustrating.
That said, in part due to solid benchwork (3/4" ply over 1x3 or larger framing) things have shifted remarkably little, but realistically I accept the fact that nothing is really perfect over time. I've always been careful to leave access, especially with hidden track. I've also been particularly careful with vertical curves, which are a particular problem for steam locos with their long driver wheelbase vs diesels. And I've been rewarded with what is probably 99+% trouble-free track.
So what happens with the other 1%? A good example was last night. I took a train out of staging and just wanted to watch it run. I had a Monon LO that derailed twice, once in hidden track and once out where I could see what was going on. Given it was the same car in two different places, that was a clue that it probably wasn't the track. I started checking it over and found a wheelset where the pressed-in insulation had loosened. OK, easy to solve popped a new wheelset in and...wait, what's this? Whether it was due entirely to wearing out while running or, more likely given the size of the defect when I found it, the journal had an air bubble right next to it that wore through. Now it was a big oval!
So track was 100%, but 2 derailments anyway.
And it's also the case that even track that is good may still cause an issue with certain equipment. Frequently that is steam, again because of the long driver wheelbase. I have a lot of Shinohara dual-gauge turnouts, which because of the way they're made permit a bit of a clunk/drop when rolling stock is passing through. Usually not a derailment, it is a little weird as cars shudder across the frogs. Where steam comes in is due to the long wheelbase again and the turnout geometry. If the points are not tweaked just right, my two big K-class Mikes will sometime move just enough going through the diverging route to stop if moving slow, because the lateral movement of one of the drivers is shifted just enough that it will bridge between the rail and the mid-backside of the point and short. So it's a 100% perfect turnout, except when things jostle just right. Solution? just use a finger nail to gently press against the point to give a bit more gap.
mlehman100% derailment free? Whatever.
Mike,I have ran my trains during the week of the county fair for 45-50 hours with zero derailments and I have operated my past ISLs for months with zero derailments. I won't accept anything less.
I urge everybody to aim for that goal..Its not hard to obtain.
I simply refuse to put up with derailments. The oopses, sure...we all forget to line a turnout, or we don't throw the points completely. That kind of oops. But if a locmotive of any kind, diesel or steam, won't round a curve or go through a turnout without derailing, EVERYTHING stops. Full stop. I don't think about anything except getting that problem fixed. I have ripped up several feet of rails when I found that wetting the ballast and lifting a rail here and there won't solve the problem.
At some point, I get the locomotive to run through that spot in either direction at any speed. I heave a sigh, and return to enjoying derailment free running with an occasional oops. I will not put up with even occasional derailments due to track work. The big boys don't, and neither will I.
selectorThe oopses, sure...we all forget to line a turnout, or we don't throw the points completely.
Crandell, I don't move till I'm sure the switch is lined for my move and the points fully closed but,for me that comes natural since I did that for 9 1/2 years..Not saying I'm perfect at all since my boo boos is fouling the switch on a double ended yard track and that's only because there isn't a wee brakeman signaling me to stop.In other words I "wabash" a yard track..
NP2626 Dave, I don't consider 0-6-0s, 4-4-0s, 4-6-0s or blind drivered 2-8-0s to be an addequate test of how well steam will run!
Dave models an era that doesn't have all that much big steam power. And if you are modeling a short line at the turn of the century like I do, you have even less reason to run anything bigger than a 2-8-0. For me, the small engines mentioned are indeed the test of how well steam will run.
Reality is that because model railroaders like to pay by the driver on steam models, it is actually harder to produce and sell a good running 4-4-0 than a 4-8-2 or articulated. But that's a rant for another day.
My MDC Roundhouse 0-6-0, 4-6-0s and 2-8-0 all work(ed) fine on my layout. It should be noted that these locomotives all have blind drivers in the middle (Drivers 2 on the 6 coupled and 2 & 3 on the 8 coupled. My assertion has been that it is the newer equipment that can give problems. Maybe I should clarify that by newer, I only mean stuff from 2000 tp 2003 as I have nothing newer. I feel that steam equipment now available, is too expensive. As far as cost comparisons between what was available in the 1990s to what is available today, factoring inflation doesn't do an adequate enough job of explaining why things are more expensive, today. First of all, in my case, most of my locomotives were purchased as kits, which I put together and there are no currently available steam locomotive kits to compare with. Secondly, pushing the prices up are locomotives which include DCC and DCC with Sound, let alone that locomotives are far more detailed then they used to be.
BRAKIE mlehman100% derailment free? Whatever. Mike,I have ran my trains during the week of the county fair for 45-50 hours with zero derailments and I have operated my past ISLs for months with zero derailments. I won't accept anything less. I urge everybody to aim for that goal..Its not hard to obtain.
Well, I only partially agree.
Aiming for zero derailments is a worthwhile goal. But it is very hard to attain.
Sheldon,
So, you actually have had problems, then? You've had to spend some time with new locomotives, fine tuning them! This blows your first assertions all to heck, that your stuff runs great, right out of the box!
I have only been a member of the NMRA for 6 months. I didn't find membership to seem worthwhile.
Now your also telling me that our wonderous manufacturers lie about the capibilities of their products. This is also a contradiction of what you's said before. Are they doing everything right, or not?
Back to the topic of this thread, although derailing has been one of the problems I've encountered with my newer steam locos, it is not the only one. Also, I don't have large steam locomotives. With 22 inch radius curves, large steam locomotives were never a part of my plan! My biggest steamer is a Rivarossi Mikado, kit bashed to a Northern Pacific W-3 Mike, which, by the way, operates just fine on my 22 inch radius curves.
What I seem to be seeing posed here is that some of you feel I am wrong about my findings with my layout and my equipment! I have to say that this really seems a foolish assertion! I would never doubt any of the problems you might have with the stuff you own, how could I possibly prevail with that opinion!
richhotrain Aiming for zero derailments is a worthwhile goal. But it is very hard to attain. Rich
Rich,Sorry,I don't understand that at all..I'm not the world's best track layer but, I can still obtain derailment free operation.
Anybody can obtain that goal since all it takes is careful track laying,correct wheel gauge and coupler and trip pin height.A NMRA gauge check of a switch should make you aware of any potential problems with the switch even before its laid..A belt sander ran across the cork roadbed will remove any potential problems in the cork.
How hards that?
A couple of thoughts on the subject:
IMHO: Modern steam models run very, very well. This is in comparison to steam models from the past and to modern diesels. When proto 2K came out with the ys in the early 2000’s, we entered a new era. I have one of these that creeps and runs smooth as glass. I also have spectrum and Bli locos (2-8-0s, 4-6-0s, shays, cab forwards). I have experience running Athearn genesis steam and the new hybrids from Sunset as well as Blackstone’s Hon3 offerings. They all run great out of the box.
I also run brass steam and have found that these locos generally require more work and maintenance. However, even in the finicky brass category, I have some models that ran perfect out of the box.
Regarding operations and derailments: I regularly operate on several layouts that are all steam (including my own). While there is an occasional problem, I would categorize the operation of these all steam layouts as nearly flawless. Problems that occur are usually a dirty section of track, derailments are very rare and usually operator induced. To get a layout to this level of reliability takes a lot of careful construction and decent skills. To keep it at this level takes a fair amount of maintenance.
Diesel layout owners also have the same issues regarding track work and reliability as well as having to maintain the layout.
To me the hobby is about what you like. I happen to like steam so that it what I run. If I liked diesels, I would run them. I have been fortunate to be alive at a time to take advantage of the advances in running reliability of all models, especially steam locos, that have taken place over the last 15 years or so…
My two cents,
Guy
see stuff at: the Willoughby Line Site
BRAKIE richhotrain Aiming for zero derailments is a worthwhile goal. But it is very hard to attain. Rich Rich,Sorry,I don't understand that at all..I'm not the world's best track layer but, I can still obtain derailment free operation. Anybody can obtain that goal since all it takes is careful track laying,correct wheel gauge and coupler and trip pin height.A NMRA gauge check of a switch should make you aware of any potential problems with the switch even before its laid..A belt sander ran across the cork roadbed will remove any potential problems in the cork. How hards that?
Larry, maybe it just comes down to a matter of semantics.
If it is not hard, your original statement that prompted my reply, then it must be easy.
Let's start there. Based upon my own experience over the past 7 years with my current layout, I can tell you that for me it is not easy - - - to attain zero derailments, that is.
Well, if it is not easy, as I would maintain, and if it is not hard, as you would contend, then it must not be very hard. But, for me, If it is not not very hard, then it must be very hard.
How's that? LOL
Look, try as I might, over the past 7 years to make my current layout bullet proof, track wise, I cannot claim zero derailments. And, from all the guys that we have heard from, neither can many others make that claim.
So, I will return to my original assertion. Aiming for zero derailments is a worthwhile goal. But it is very hard to attain. Not impossible, perhaps, but very hard.
The original post was articulate, informative, and asked a valid question. Somehow this thing has degenerated into a cat fight about who's dog is bigger than my dog.
Enough, already. let us continue with something else. May i suggest we choose from the following topics.
1-Kadee couplers are over rated.
2-N scale is for children.
3-Walthers has done something wrong.
4-Gleaming is a rumor.
5-Metal wheels are a waste of money.
Get my point???
Dunno, charlie, if we have been digressing, and I don't think that we have been, since we are considering possible causes of dissatisfaction with steamers, isn't your suggestion going to take us even more off topic?
Charlie, the OP started this to TALK ABOUT STEAM!
Personally, I have no trouble with Bachmann 4-6-2s and 18" radius curves. Their reccommended minimum is 22, but they negoatiate 18 with no issues. For your 22" radius curves, I'd reccommend any steam that has a reccommended minimum radius of 22" or less. BLI's 2-10-0 can go around 18" radius curves, and the older steam can easily do 18, even the 4-8-8-4s!
If you are really worried about prefomance, get some older model steam locos with small flanges and run those. I hope to get an IHC 2-8-82 letterd for the Pennsy for coal drags on my layout (with 22" minimum curves.) I anticipate no problems, and I've seen them run.
Modeling the Pennsy and loving it!
charlie9 The original post was articulate, informative, and asked a valid question. Somehow this thing has degenerated into a cat fight about who's dog is bigger than my dog. Enough, already. let us continue with something else. May i suggest we choose from the following topics. 1-Kadee couplers are over rated. 2-N scale is for children. 3-Walthers has done something wrong. 4-Gleaming is a rumor. 5-Metal wheels are a waste of money. Get my point??? Charlie
please note beforehand that all content on the running has been performed on EZ track.
ok, steam where do we begin from what I've experienced with my N scale steamers they can operate on a pretty tight radius in N scale. Maintanence, My kato GS4 and Bachmann specrum Lt. Mtn are easy to mantain with easy access to the gears. My northern is far more complicated requiring a bit of disassembling, as far as I'm aware there is no way to clean the wheels on an N scale steamer. Tenders are pretty good though my Northern's tender has been the most troublesome of my 4 steamers (1 disassembled GS4 which I cannot get back together after failure to pick up power). My Lt. mountain can handle a 5 car 85' passenger train, my GS4 at the moment a 10 car train(the articulated add on cars are iffy), my northern can handle 14-15 freight cars but not it's assigned heavyweight train which is 6 cars long I believe that is partially due to one drive wheel pair having traction tires and the tight radii turns I used. Now I have some wider ones so hopefully my northern will not stall and it's tender will stay on the tracks.
One thing that I've always had a problem with and this isn't just my steamers who do this it's some of my more nitpicky diesels like my Kato F unit, my Atlas RS1, and my CC E units. is switches when the switching part of the switch meets the lead truck on my locos they've never failed to have a slight error and derail. for a video I did I had my Lt. Mtn running into a switch at varied speeds to put it onto the passing track it never failed to split the switch. does that bother me? yes but I have a plan on how to deal with it.
N scale US steamers go from $20-60 more than their diesel counterparts which is ok with me. $20 to 60 more is far better than what German N scale steamers cost compared to their diesel counterparts it's a big gap $100-300 more. There will always be a good and a bad side to things Steam looks nice and depending on it's age runs nice, downsides it costs slightly more and is far more nitpicky about trackwork. then again it's said a lot around "here to each their own." sometimes I feel like this get's lost somewhere along the lines between members here. I don't mind paying extra for steam, but when I decide to buy a steamer it's a rare occasion because the railroad I model never owned any steam. I buy it more for running it and having fun than anything else.
richhotrain Well, if it is not easy, as I would maintain, and if it is not hard, as you would contend, then it must not be very hard. But, for me, If it is not not very hard, then it must be very hard.
In my best Jimmy Stewart voice..Well,gee whiz Rich,if I can do anybody can. Seriously.
I'm not the greatest track layer but,I fully understand what's involved with derailment free operation and I will maintain it's not that hard..Some of my pass ISLs track was laid directly on the board with no cork and still no derailments.
One of the most misunderstood things about our hobby is how forgiven our cars and engines are..
Take a look.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8fGTr_PfB0
Roundy-round in one direction, without a lead truck, on a flat board with no switching...heck, a mole might be able to get 100% derailment-free operation on that after a few tries.
Larry,
Are you trying to soften us up with humor?
mlehmanAre you trying to soften us up with humor?
Maybe..
Did you notice the kink in the track by the switch located on the right side of the "layout"?
BRAKIE One of the most misunderstood things about our hobby is how forgiven our cars and engines are..
Of course, you meant "forgiving", but in the case of my steamers, they are "forgiven" for their occasional derailments.
Not really, I had youtube in small screen. Didn't look like the greatest track, but if you're running piecutters on code 100, even the Flintstones could probably stay up on both rails.
Not so sure how that'd all work out in code 70.
It's not the stuff that stays on good looking flat track, 'cepting that kink of course, that's impressive to me. It's the light track that's laid to look all beat up and yet you can still get your C-19 over it that impresses me.
When someone is doing that, they intend it to work, although you often wonder. Might there be an occasional derailment? Sure. Unlike at Lake Woebegone, we can't all be above average. Sometimes we don't even worry about being average, we're just looking for da funk.
NP2626 Sheldon, So, you actually have had problems, then? You've had to spend some time with new locomotives, fine tuning them! This blows your first assertions all to heck, that your stuff runs great, right out of the box! I have only been a member of the NMRA for 6 months. I didn't find membership to seem worthwhile. Now your also telling me that our wonderous manufacturers lie about the capibilities of their products. This is also a contradiction of what you's said before. Are they doing everything right, or not? Back to the topic of this thread, although derailing has been one of the problems I've encountered with my newer steam locos, it is not the only one. Also, I don't have large steam locomotives. With 22 inch radius curves, large steam locomotives were never a part of my plan! My biggest steamer is a Rivarossi Mikado, kit bashed to a Northern Pacific W-3 Mike, which, by the way, operates just fine on my 22 inch radius curves. What I seem to be seeing posed here is that some of you feel I am wrong about my findings with my layout and my equipment! I have to say that this really seems a foolish assertion! I would never doubt any of the problems you might have with the stuff you own, how could I possibly prevail with that opinion!
I don't know anything about your layout or your equipment, I only know about my experiences in the last 44 years in this hobby. Which includes 10 years working in hobby shops selling and repairing trains and 20 plus years of off and on membership in several well known/published clubs and modeling groups.
There is not one piece of motive power or rolling stock on my layout that is "exactly" the way it came "out of the box". My standards require genuine Kadee couplers, metal wheels, sprung trucks when practical, close coupling of diesels and passenger cars, and working/touching diaphragms on all equipment as applicable.
My standards require that steam locos back up through #6 crossovers pushing 40 cars, so I add weight to tenders, and that also helps with other typical "issues".
I have not found diesels to be any less in need of "tweeking" than steam locos, but the issues between the two are typically different.
I published on this forum my "improvement tips" for Bachmann steam locos a long time ago, that does not mean that these locos did not run well before those improvements, it just means they run better now.
In purchasing 130 locos have I had a few duds? Sure. Have I had a few "perfect" - well I guess that depends on your standards, but yes.
Issues like train length, double heading, track conditions, curves, grades and more effect the results one person might have with a loco vs another person.
My first comments about track work and radius selection speak to simple engineering principals. If you operate any machine near the limits of its design, it will be less reliable. It is impossible for these manufacturers to produce these locos at these low prices - yes low prices - and build them to a level of precision that would insure that every copy perform perfectly at the outer limits of their design regarding things like minimum radius.
I have said before to others, I will say it again, the bulk of the HO model train products that have been produced in the last 40-60 years are not intended to be "plug and play", "bullet proof" toys. They are "hobby" items intended for use by individuals who understand the complex nature of the complete interplay of track and machine, and of man and machine.
For those not interested in that hobby, some products have been engineered to be more "plug and play" - products like Marklin and MTH are more geared to those not interested in "building" or adjusting" or refining the operation of anything themselves.
I'm not in that "plug and play" hobby - one, it costs too much, two it's not fun to me.
At age 13 I was building Mantua locos, hand laying track, building turnouts from Tru-Scale kits, and building wood kits for structures and rolling stock.
Buy and run whatever you like, or don't - but don't expect people like me to even understand what it is you expect from these models. Because from what I read, your expectations are unrealistic and predestined to failure.
From the early 90's to now has been the golden age of product in this hobby - if none of this product makes you happy, maybe this really is not the hobby for you.
My trains run good, steam and diesel alike, they look good and are well within my means to aford a bunch of them - I'm having great fun.
I also know that I would never even consider building a layout for the type of trains I want to run with 22 inch radius curves. Nor would I expect anything bigger than a 2-8-0 to look good or run well on such curves. I'm not say that some larger locos might not be OK, but just because one brand of 2-8-2 runs on 22" curves, does not mean they will or should.
I will repeat, my SMALLEST curves are 36" and I would NEVER buy and expect to run a GS4, or 4-12-2, or UP Big Boy - because those locos all have big drivers and/or too many axles giving them LONG rigid wheelbases that are problematic on small curves.
Physics is physics - geometric physics does scale down and the ability of a steam loco to go around curves is linked to a complex set of geometry related to its wheelbase and lateral motion tolerances - all of those locos would be severely speed restricted on such a curve in real life - so why should I think that scaled down to 1:87th scale they should somehow be able to go around that curve at 50 smph?
Maybe a few will, I would rather not test that myself.
On this web site you can do a little light reading on the technical side of model railroading, then you might understand my views: http://webspace.webring.com/people/ib/budb3/index.html
As for the NMRA, it is centered around the hobby that I am in, building model trains. And maybe that is one of its shortcomings that it is not oriented enough to those who simply want to buy "plug and play" toys.
Someone once asked me why I liked steam trains. This answer came from my mouth unrehearsed (more or less)
A steam engine was not just a train. It was and is a massive, complex living beast that turned simple coal and water into a roaring thunder that echoed down the rails, generating thousands of horse power. Steam trains dragged long hauls of goods and people through often unseen areas ot the country. The steam train also produced a sound like no other; a deep resonance and rythm that could rock you to sleep, yet be heard for miles. The engines movement was a well cordinated dance between openly visible gears, wheels and rods. The steam train even smelled of power; a strange mix of oil, steam, greese, and coal. And there just wasn't one type of steam. There were as many varied styles of steam engines as there were stars in the sky. They just weren't retangular boxes.
The engineer and fireman had a special relation with the engines they drove. Each one was like a lady. They knew how to get the most out of her by experience. The men who worked these machines led hard lives. They were often exposed to the elements and worked long hours. Yet this didn't stop many a boy from dreaming of being an engineer of a steam train some day.
Back then trains mattered even more then they do today. They helped build this country. Steam trains were the lifeline for many a town where potential mayoral candidates would proclaim on their platform, "I will bring the railroad to this town!"
Yes my diesel collection has grown. It rivals my steam, but only because I wanted a complete history of the C&O (pre Chessie). And while diesels are more hardy, given the chance, I would get more steam. Steam will always be my favorite by far. But there's fewer and fewer and fewer companies making steam.
I gave up hope for C&O Greenbriar, Pacfic, Hudson, and H-7 classes in plastic. So I got (most) of them in brass. And brass is even more maintenance.
Sure, steam trains take more maintenence. The real steam engines did to. But when I see steam, I imagine a simpler time of man and machine.
Signed,
A kid born in 71- well after the end of steam.
Don - Specializing in layout DC->DCC conversions
Modeling C&O transition era and steel industries There's Nothing Like Big Steam!
Sheldon,The AHM Y6B could go around a 18" curve but,it looked horrible but,around it went due to the frame being hinge.A lot of the "train set" type of steam locomotives(4-4-0s,2-6-0s,2-6-2,2-6-4s,4-6-2,2-8-0s 2-8-2s,2-8-4 plus other like wheel arragements.) was built to use 18" curves found in train sets and there's been thousands of train sets released that included the engines I named and all one needs to do is a little research to see these sets.Manufacturers also know most modelers doesn't have large sweeping curves on their small to bedroom size layouts.
Large locomotives requires large curves to look right while 2-6-4s to 4-8-4s can use 22-24" curves and still look decent.Small freight engines like 2-8-0s and 2-8-2s can use 18" curves.
You judge these train sets-notice the Big Boy set..IIRC these came with either 22" or 24" curves.
http://hoseeker.net/ahminformation/ahmsaleslist1972pg10.jpg
Gidday NP2626, apology accepted, now its my turn to shoot myself in the foot.
Please don't take others opposing opinions as an insult to yourself, yes, there can be robust differences of opinion.
In my opinion without them this forum would be a complete waste of time if we practised "political correctness" but apart from mentions of the "flame wars" from well before my time, while there some really opinionated contributors I've never seen any deliberate personal nastiness.
"Model Railroading is Fun".
Running steam on tight curves my fault because I had yet to buy any wider curves. Poor track work my fault because track nails bent to easily and I didn't have power wires for my layout yet. Maintenance I don't do it very often but I do, do it before I run the loco especially after a week + of sitting. Tender derailments/ rolling stock derailments depends upon tender/ rolling stock ad if User error was involved.
No I'm not an exact to prototype modeler, no I'm not in the NMRA, no I'm not in Opsig. if there are requirements to be considered a "model railroader" then frankly I will not partake in this hobby. I run scale speed, I follow simple practices like track occupation, and other basic things. if that's what it is than all I really am is a collector with shelf queens who run the roundy round, because I don't possess a layout.
while everybody's experiences and opinions differ from my own, why should one be scrutinized for something that they are willing to own up to.
Burlington Northern #24if there are requirements to be considered a "model railroader" then frankly I will not partake in this hobby.
Gary,If there was such requirements I guess I spent the last 55 plus years pretending to be a model railroader.
I enjoyed the hobby over the past 55 plus years by sticking to the simple basics and simple operation and I guess I seen things and I've done things that went against the grain of the so called "rules" "standard acceptable procedures" or whatever I'm not sure what the proper word may be.
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They shouldn't be since there is to many correct ways to enjoy the hobby and just as many things that can go wrong..Then some try to hard or forget the simple basics they started learning with their first train set.
My Achilles heel is derailments..I won't accept them as part of operation and nothing embarrasses me more then-heaven forbid- having one my cars to derail at the club..
I spend the meeting before a open house or the county fair inspecting the cars I plan to use and the selected cars are test ran around the layout for at least 30 minutes and before the doors are open for the open house they are given a final test run around the layout with 2-3 roll by inspections.
I have always and will continue to advise modelers to obtain 100% derailment free operation since its not hard to obtain.
DigitalGriffin Someone once asked me why I liked steam trains. This answer came from my mouth unrehearsed (more or less) A steam engine was not just a train. It was and is a massive, complex living beast that turned simple coal and water into a roaring thunder that echoed down the rails, generating thousands of horse power. Steam trains dragged long hauls of goods and people through often unseen areas ot the country. The steam train also produced a sound like no other; a deep resonance and rythm that could rock you to sleep, yet be heard for miles. The engines movement was a well cordinated dance between openly visible gears, wheels and rods. The steam train even smelled of power; a strange mix of oil, steam, greese, and coal. And there just wasn't one type of steam. There were as many varied styles of steam engines as there were stars in the sky. They just weren't retangular boxes. The engineer and fireman had a special relation with the engines they drove. Each one was like a lady. They knew how to get the most out of her by experience. The men who worked these machines led hard lives. They were often exposed to the elements and worked long hours. Yet this didn't stop many a boy from dreaming of being an engineer of a steam train some day. Back then trains mattered even more then they do today. They helped build this country. Steam trains were the lifeline for many a town where potential mayoral candidates would proclaim on their platform, "I will bring the railroad to this town!"
Don, that is well said, and it reminds me of something that I have thought about many times before.
It seems to me that model railroading cannot do justice to steam, at least not in HO scale or smaller.
As a kid, I ran American Flyer steamers, and they looked pretty cool.
My buddies ran steamers in O gauge and they looked even cooler (except for that third rail, of course).
If you are going to model steam, and do it justice, do it in a scale larger than HO.
richhotrain BRAKIE richhotrain Aiming for zero derailments is a worthwhile goal. But it is very hard to attain. Rich Rich,Sorry,I don't understand that at all..I'm not the world's best track layer but, I can still obtain derailment free operation. Anybody can obtain that goal since all it takes is careful track laying,correct wheel gauge and coupler and trip pin height.A NMRA gauge check of a switch should make you aware of any potential problems with the switch even before its laid..A belt sander ran across the cork roadbed will remove any potential problems in the cork. How hards that? Larry, maybe it just comes down to a matter of semantics. If it is not hard, your original statement that prompted my reply, then it must be easy. Let's start there. Based upon my own experience over the past 7 years with my current layout, I can tell you that for me it is not easy - - - to attain zero derailments, that is. Well, if it is not easy, as I would maintain, and if it is not hard, as you would contend, then it must not be very hard. But, for me, If it is not not very hard, then it must be very hard. How's that? LOL Look, try as I might, over the past 7 years to make my current layout bullet proof, track wise, I cannot claim zero derailments. And, from all the guys that we have heard from, neither can many others make that claim. So, I will return to my original assertion. Aiming for zero derailments is a worthwhile goal. But it is very hard to attain. Not impossible, perhaps, but very hard. Rich
Rich, I am in total agreement with you. Certainly, problem free track is a goal and maintaining problem free track takes work!
Also, you need to consider that Brakie is running diesels and not steam and these other folks who have the opinion that steam and diesel are just as operationally easy to keep on the track, have some secret they're not telling the rest of us about what they've done to they're track-work and steam locomotives to make them fool proof!
BRAKIE Sheldon,The AHM Y6B could go around a 18" curve but,it looked horrible but,around it went due to the frame being hinge.A lot of the "train set" type of steam locomotives(4-4-0s,2-6-0s,2-6-2,2-6-4s,4-6-2,2-8-0s 2-8-2s,2-8-4 plus other like wheel arragements.) was built to use 18" curves found in train sets and there's been thousands of train sets released that included the engines I named and all one needs to do is a little research to see these sets.Manufacturers also know most modelers doesn't have large sweeping curves on their small to bedroom size layouts. Large locomotives requires large curves to look right while 2-6-4s to 4-8-4s can use 22-24" curves and still look decent.Small freight engines like 2-8-0s and 2-8-2s can use 18" curves. You judge these train sets-notice the Big Boy set..IIRC these came with either 22" or 24" curves. http://hoseeker.net/ahminformation/ahmsaleslist1972pg10.jpg
Larry, I grew up in this hobby in the very same era as all those products, I know they generally will run on small curves - BUT - those manufacturers left off lots of detail and/or fudged dimensions to allow clear swings for lead and trailing trucks - not so with most of today's models.
And a Y6b has very small drivers, so each "engine" has a short wheelbase - way different from a Big Boy or a GS4.
Also, back to part of the OP's original premise, and a related point he brought up in a different thread (that he eventually locked) - Those locos from that era did not really run that well, and the plastic ones (AHM, etc) did not pull well at all "out of the box".
The AHM three pole motors were weak and had no slow speed. In fact slow speed like we have today simply did not exist except in brass or a carefully build and tuned Bowser kit - and neither ran that well "out of the box".
My point remains - if you push these little machines to the limits of their engineering, you will have more problems.
I like less problems.
Now, at the risk of getting in trouble, I don't know where you live, or how long you have been in this hobby. But at least around here, I will again challenge the "most modelers don'y have sweeping curves on their small to bedroom sized layout" theory.
Sure, many modelers start out with 4x8 or similar layouts - maybe they should rethink a Big Boy at that stage of the hobby. But here in the Mid Atlantic, even 35 years ago, the land of the universal basement under the 1500 to 2000 sq foot rancher, lots of modelers have always had room, and chosen to build layouts with 30", 36" or even bigger radius curves - even if the layout was not "basement filling".
All the 40, 50 and 80 year old (yes the BSME is over 80 years old) club layouts around here have 36" and larger curves - and some of them are in buildings no bigger than 20' x 50'.
Again my other point - it has been common knowledge in this hobby for half a century or longer that larger curves are better - so to the OP and others - build bigger curves or buy equipment suitable to what you have - but stop crying.
Burlington Northern #24 Running steam on tight curves my fault because I had yet to buy any wider curves. Poor track work my fault because track nails bent to easily and I didn't have power wires for my layout yet. Maintenance I don't do it very often but I do, do it before I run the loco especially after a week + of sitting. Tender derailments/ rolling stock derailments depends upon tender/ rolling stock ad if User error was involved. No I'm not an exact to prototype modeler, no I'm not in the NMRA, no I'm not in Opsig. if there are requirements to be considered a "model railroader" then frankly I will not partake in this hobby. I run scale speed, I follow simple practices like track occupation, and other basic things. if that's what it is than all I really am is a collector with shelf queens who run the roundy round, because I don't possess a layout. while everybody's experiences and opinions differ from my own, why should one be scrutinized for something that they are willing to own up to.
Gary,
Please do not allow others to bother you! I hope you are in this hobby to have fun with it. The stupid-petty arguments that some just seem to cherish here, are ways for small people to make themselves look like a big deal in a very small, simple hobby. Forget them! Forget what they think about things and remember, opinions are like...What? And everyone has one!
Gary, Everyone should partake in this hobby however they wish, to whatever degree they wish.
BUT, it is unreasonable to complain about the performance of the models when you do not follow the known path to success.
One more simple thought, as far back as the early 50's, Tru-Scale made their "Ready Track", a high quality ready to use track system, in sizes every 2" from 14" radius all the way up to 48" radius. They sold it for 4 decades or more. We always stocked and sold a fair amount of it in the 24" to 36" range when I worked in a hobby shop.
Again, simply pointing out that the idea of broad curves is neither new or reserved to the "extravagant rich" or do it yourself craftsman in this hobby.
Keep it civil folks or I will lock this.
NP, Atlantic I agree with both of your post's. NP I try not to let it bother me, Atlantic it is understood I owned up to something that was my fault because I didn't have an wide radii turns at the time( now I do though). In all honesty my first layout was terrible even by the most basic standards, my locos did fine around the tighter curves but they didn't look very realistic. I got more trouble from the articulated diner car.
BRAKIE Burlington Northern #24if there are requirements to be considered a "model railroader" then frankly I will not partake in this hobby. Gary,If there was such requirements I guess I spent the last 55 plus years pretending to be a model railroader. I enjoyed the hobby over the past 55 plus years by sticking to the simple basics and simple operation and I guess I seen things and I've done things that went against the grain of the so called "rules" "standard acceptable procedures" or whatever I'm not sure what the proper word may be. ------------------------------------- while everybody's experiences and opinions differ from my own, why should one be scrutinized for something that they are willing to own up to. ------------------------------------ They shouldn't be since there is to many correct ways to enjoy the hobby and just as many things that can go wrong..Then some try to hard or forget the simple basics they started learning with their first train set. My Achilles heel is derailments..I won't accept them as part of operation and nothing embarrasses me more then-heaven forbid- having one my cars to derail at the club.. I spend the meeting before a open house or the county fair inspecting the cars I plan to use and the selected cars are test ran around the layout for at least 30 minutes and before the doors are open for the open house they are given a final test run around the layout with 2-3 roll by inspections. I have always and will continue to advise modelers to obtain 100% derailment free operation since its not hard to obtain.
A couple of pages back Gary D. asked how someone did their "zero-derailmant" tracklaying. Here's how I lay my HO track to minimize derailments (as others have said/implied, zero derailments is probably impossible). I'll make this as concise as I can...
1. I use 1/2" plywood subroadbed, generally supported on 16" centers, but I have fudged up to 22" in places and not had an issue.
2. Roadbed is cork I cut myself from floor underlayment rolls. You can see that on my website (see signature for link). I run the side of my fingers along the underside of the cork before laying, to make sure there are no grossly protruding granules. If there are I pick them off with a fingernail. I don't care if it leaves a little hole.
3. I glue the cork down along the track centerline I've drawn on the subroadbed. I stagger the ends of the cork (two strips, just like commercial cork roadbed). On straights I weight the cork with old floor tile (no need to stack more than one tile) until the glue dries; on curves I usually use lots of straight pins. I'm very careful to follow the curved centerline precisely, as I later use the mated edges of the cork to guide the centerline of the track itself.
4. I hand sand the top of the cork after the glue is dry, to make sure I get a smooth surface. It's about 150 grit paper, but anything reasonable close is good enough. Two to three passes with the sanding block and moderate pressure is sufficient.
5. I vacuum the sanded cork and immediately adjacent area.
6. I use Atlas flextrack (usually code 83) for most mainlines, because I like the way it easily curves without kinking. I file the ends of the rails slightly to ensure good electrical connection with the rail joiners, and also to make sure there are no tiny burrs that can catch a wheel. I do this very quickly by moving a cutoff wheel against the edge of the rail on all sides - top, sides and bottom.
7. I use Atlas track nails or similar, and attach the track right down the center of the cork. I drive the nails about 3/4 of the way down, then sight along the track to ensure it's either straight of smoothly curved. If there are irregularities, I can simply tap the nail slightly to the left or right and that usually smooths things out. I then drive the nail the rest of the way, making sure I don't seat the nail head hard against the tie. It usually touches, but a tiny gap (.005" or so) is my preference because it secures the track but doesnt bend the tie and cause the rails to twist.
8. On curves, I leave a short straight section (1-2 inches), and trim the inner rail (which is the sliding one) to match the length of the outer one. I dress the cut end as in 6 above, and solder the next piece to this one before curving through the joint. Once soldered, the curve flows smoothly from the first piece of track to the second as if there were no joint.
That's pretty much it. I use my eyeballs and fingers extensively when checking for smoothness and consistency, but the locos and rolling stock are the final arbiter. I run a large steamer dead slow through the new track, watching the lead truck particularly, as it's motion back and forth on curves most clearly shows any tightening / loosening of the radius. Once that's smooth, anything else will run through with no problems.
That's how I do it. It's successful for me.
Anyone want to know how I do easements and super-elevation? The former is rather unique...
Mark,You sum it up quite nicely and that's a direct path to derailment free operation.
The rest is in your equipment and that includes correct wheel gauge and coupler/trip pin height.
A lot may not believe in 100% derailment free operation is possible and that's ok but,I must be doing something right when I can run my stuff at the club for 5-6 hours every day for the week of the county fair with zero derailments.I can switch cars for hours with zero derailments..
You're certainly right about the equipment, Larry! I had one Athearn hopper that just would NOT stay on the track no matter how much I messed with it. Everything looked fine, but it would jump off the tracks on a very regular basis. After unsuccessfully fiddling with the car for 2-3 hours, I finally solved the problem by simply removing it from the layout and dropping it in the trash (after removing truacks and couplers, of course). Some things are just not salvageable.
BruntonI had one Athearn hopper that just would NOT stay on the track no matter how much I messed with it. Everything looked fine, but it would jump off the tracks on a very regular basis.
I had a Athearn flatcar that did the same..It took me weeks to figure out the body was warp and that was after I gave it the old mirror inspection...
Brunton You're certainly right about the equipment, Larry! I had one Athearn hopper that just would NOT stay on the track no matter how much I messed with it. Everything looked fine, but it would jump off the tracks on a very regular basis. After unsuccessfully fiddling with the car for 2-3 hours, I finally solved the problem by simply removing it from the layout and dropping it in the trash (after removing truacks and couplers, of course). Some things are just not salvageable.
I had the same problem with an Athearn hopper...my whole fleet ran fine on my old layout...never a problem with anything...just that one car. I could never figure it out. When I lay some track on my new layout I will give it another day in court...but she may be a canvas for my weathering techniques instead of serving my feed co-op.
Larry, (Brakie) am I correct in the fact that you are not running steam engines?
The only things I did different that Brunton is I have used Midwest Cork Roadbed and nailed it to my 1/2 inch plywood sub road bed. I've taken as much care as anyone does in attempting to make my track work smooth, fair and trouble free. Like I believe Mike Lehmann said; his layout is located in a part of his house subject to humidity changes. So is mine. I have an old house and the basement (where my layout is located) is subject to some fairly large humidity and temperature variations. This does cause some problems with my roadbed. However, when the humidity is highest (Summer) I have other activities I participate in, so the layout sits idle from the end of April to October.
I have said this before: My layout plans never included large steam locomotives. Their abilities, capabilities and operation is not what I was interested in. I have locomotives with wheel arrangements no bigger that 2-8-2 Mikados, which as I am reiterating now, work fine on my 22 inch radius! Also, I have been aware of Tru-Scale Track since maybe 1958 when my neighbor and myself actually built a loop of probably 26 inch radius Tru-Scale track. I chose 22 inch radius because my railroad is in a mountainous location and as is always the case, layouts are built with compromises!
NP2626 Larry, (Brakie) am I correct in the fact that you are not running steam engines?
I have one steam engine a old AHM NKP Berk I painted and lettered for the 765 but ,it hasn't been ran in years..I'm 100% diesel.
I do have fond memories of my old PFM,United,Sunset,steamers as well as a smooth running IHC 2-8-2. and built a MDC 2 truck Shay.I also built a Mantua "Lil six" 0-6-0T and a Penn Line H9.I'm no stranger to today's steam locomotives since I see them ran at the club.
As for the club layout its located in a building at the fair grounds that is unheated 6 out of 7 days in Ohio weather.The back layout is C100 while the front layout is a mixture of Handlaid and Atlas C100 flex.The reason for that is the handlaid track and switches is 24 years old is getting worn..The steamers are ran on the back layout that has 36 40 and 46" curves while the front layout has tighter curves 26" and 24".You can run smaller wheel base steamers on the front layout and if you are wondering both layouts are connected.
To be honest I have passing thoughts of buying a steam locomotive-a PFM Santa Fe 1950 Class 2-8-0 to be exact but,never made the final decision.
O.K., my diesels (7 of them) make it around my layout without problems, too. When your talking diesels and I'm talking steamers, we're not speaking the same language, are we?
BRAKIE NP2626 Larry, (Brakie) am I correct in the fact that you are not running steam engines? I have one steam engine a old AHM NKP Berk I painted and lettered for the 765 but ,it hasn't been ran in years..I'm 100% diesel.
richhotrain BRAKIE NP2626 Larry, (Brakie) am I correct in the fact that you are not running steam engines? I have one steam engine a old AHM NKP Berk I painted and lettered for the 765 but ,it hasn't been ran in years..I'm 100% diesel. Brakie, shame on you. As I scroll back through the replies to this thread, you were the loudest proponent of the zero derailment theory, and yet you are 100% diesel??? Not even one steamer on which to make your claims??? Rich
Steam,Diesel,Electric or Trolley it doesn't matter since you want derailment free operation.
Using steam as a excuse for derailments is weak and holds as much water as a metal water bucket with a rusted out bottom...
I've seen steam locomotives run for hours at the club with zero derailments.
NP2626 O.K., my diesels (7 of them) make it around my layout without problems, too. When your talking diesels and I'm talking steamers, we're not speaking the same language, are we?
Yes we are speaking the same language..I'm talking about derailment free operation regardless if its steam or diesel.As I told Rich I see steam engines run for hours at the club with zero derailments..
Larry, you should recuse yourself from any further comment on this thread.
The subject is the higher maintenance associated with steam engines.
The contention is that steam engines require bullet proof track work whereas diesels don't.
If you don't run steam engines, how can you comment so knowingly?
richhotrainThe contention is that steam engines require bullet proof track work whereas diesels don't.
A good tip came from Model Railroader magazine years ago.
Take your worst locomotive and run it over the tracks forward and backward before you ballast.
That's your test if it's ready.
Yes steamers are more maintence intense. Getting the the gear tower, to the final gear, and the wires between the tender and engine require more work.
Yes, the longer wheel base does create problems on tighter curves.
What's your point?
I run Bachmann's 2-6-6-2's on R18's for hours for my son. Does he care about overhang? Nope. He just lets his imagination fly.
As we have all said all along, it's what makes you happy.
richhotrain If you don't run steam engines, how can you comment so knowingly? Rich
Simple..I have eyes and I see BLI,MTH,Bachmann and other brands of steam engines run for hours at the club without derailments..
If one is a member of a club he gets to see many new locomotives and watching them run can give you knowledge of a given engine-good,bad or plum ugly..
Of course getting first hand information from the owner is priceless..
BRAKIE richhotrain If you don't run steam engines, how can you comment so knowingly? Rich Simple..I have eyes and I see BLI,MTH,Bachmann and other brands of steam engines run for hours at the club without derailments.. If one is a member of a club he gets to see many new locomotives and watching them run can give you knowledge of a given engine-good,bad or plum ugly.. Of course getting first hand information from the owner is priceless..
It's that steamers in a scale run on scale rails anywhere and don't derail that matters to the discussion. It can be done, we've seen it happen, and we know it takes some doing to get there. That should be the end of it, fellas.
We've gotten sidetracked, so to speak, by the derailment issue.
But there are other maintenance problems with steamers that make them more troublesome.
Digital Griffin just mentioned some other issues, the gears, the wires between the tender and engine, the longer wheel base, just to name a few.
Another is the need to often add weight to the pilot truck and the trailing truck, the need the add, adjust or replace springs on the truck assemblies, and, at least in my opinion, the inherently poor design of the engine trucks, leaving them to be floppy and not really able to hold the rails.
.
BRAKIE NP2626 O.K., my diesels (7 of them) make it around my layout without problems, too. When your talking diesels and I'm talking steamers, we're not speaking the same language, are we? Yes we are speaking the same language..I'm talking about derailment free operation regardless if its steam or diesel.As I told Rich I see steam engines run for hours at the club with zero derailments..
No, we're not speaking the same language! Yes, the idea is to run trains without problems. However, someone speaking as an "Authority" who simply dismisses problems others may have with equipment, the suppposed "Authority" doesn't even have; or, want, brings the credabilty of the "authority" into question!
Of the 15 locomotives I own, I only have one that likes to derail. Given the longevity I've had working in quality, building models owning my own businesses and my mechanical abilities, it is a forgone logical conclusion for me to decide I've got a loco with a problem. If you disagee with my conclusion, prove me wrong! Telling me I'm wrong is doing absolutly nothing and you supposed authorities have said nothing about what is needed to fix things! What a waste of time!
Hm--derailment free, huh?
Well, I've got one Genesis A/B F-3 set that is the only locomotive to derail on a turnout in my main yard. Everything else goes through just perfectly--my other diesel units, and all of my steam, from my 2-8-0 to my 2-8-8-4's and centipede tenders (brass centipede tenders, so you KNOW they have tight tolerances). But the B unit on this particular set takes to the ground everytime I run it through the turnout at anything over 10smph. Checked the turnout, checked the trucks on the B unit--everything. Still hits the ballast regularly.
So pardon me if I don't buy the steam=more derailments theory.
I have a whole pile of both steam and diesel around here that I can run...most of the time I have no derailments ...there are times, however, when one of my infamous gremlinized turnouts decides not to do what it is supposed to do...which causes one of my locos to run to ground...
As far as steam needing extra maintenance ...well...the prototypes did to some extent just as much..that was part of the 'romance' of the period, I guess
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
NP2626Telling me I'm wrong is doing absolutly nothing and you supposed authorities have said nothing about what is needed to fix things!
Well-never mind.
Well, after a day of carpentry, drywall and electrical work for my latest client, a retired hobby shop owner, I spent a few minutes out in the garage in the layout room running trains - well just one train actually.
It was a Proto2000 2-8-8-2 and a Bachmann 2-8-0 double headed with about 60 piggyback flat cars. No derailments reported - and todays train movements including backing this train partly up a 1.8% grade and through three curves at the same time - of course the curves are 36" radius, 54" radius and 44" radius repectively.
The rolling stock consisted of a a mix of Athearn, Bachmann and Walthers 50' flats with vans few Walthers 75' flats with vans.
And yes, these two locos run just fine together on DC, and it actually takes both to move this train.
Zero derailments - generally pretty easy to achieve if you lay track carefully to a good plan in the frst place.
I prefer track glued to homabed or homasote, never did like cork.
Earlier smaller layouts I hand layed my track - but now using Atlas code 83 and like it just as well except for building special stuff.
It is a guaranteed conclusion that if I'm running on a layout with 3 other guys and there is a turnout somewhere that is set" wrong" , I... ME, Numero Uno will ALWAYS run foul of it first. And DEE RAIL.
Gay ron teeeed.
after running my 4-8-4 northern some much wider radii turns, today I have to wonder why I did not buy some wider radius turns. it handled those curves beautifully and without losing a step with it's assigned consist behind it. as for maintenance between steam and diesel, well I agree with NP my steamers need far more maintenance then they have received. well I have tomorrow off, I need to take care of MRR tasks and future MRRing financial investments.
Do steam engines require more maintenance? YES! Is it difficult? NO! On my layout I have now over 30 steamers, of which 90% are brass. Each one had to be tweaked as it came out of the box initially, but after that I haven't had to do any more maintenance on them other than the 6 month maintenance I do on every loco, including the 6 diesels I own. There is virtually no difference in the maintenance that I do between the two types of engines.
As an aside, I do just as much, if not more tweaking to the diesels I own. Each one, no matter the make, has recieved my "treatment", prior to landing on the rails. This consists of taking each diesel completely apart, cleaning out all the grease and oil. Visually inspecting, and removing with a set of files, all the flash that is in the center of the gears, as well as the flash that is on the sides of them. I also do the same to the inside of the truck frames, and the plastic axles the gears are mounted to. After this, I reassemble the trucks, and prior to putting the bottom gear plate on, I fill the gear box with a low abrasive cleanser like Bon-Ami or Bar Keepers Friend. (I used to use powdered toothpaste, but that is impossible to find in my area.)
I then chuck the truck into a Dremel, and while holing the truck with one hand, the Dremel with the other, I turn the power on. After about 30-45 Seconds, I let go of the truck, and it will sit there and sway back and forth. I run this for 3-4 minutes. Then the trucks are taken apart again and cleaned of the cleanser, and then reassembled. Each part recieves oil or grease as its put back together. I use barely a drop of oil or grease as they are assembled. There are a few things I do to the motor as well. This generally consists of adjusting the back and forth movement of the commutator with a thrust washer or two. I also slightly ease the pressure of the brushes, by cutting off a ring or two on the brush springs. If necessary, I will also smooth the armature with 1200 grit sandpaper With this method, I been able to completely quiet down Athearns and get them to run as smooth and quiet as an Atlas, or Kato. Some folks recommend just using Pearl Drops, or some other type of liquid toothpaste, but IMHO I've found that the PD method, doesn't do as good of a job, as the dry low abrasive cleanser.
90% of my track is handlain, including most of my turnouts. There are 14 commercial turnouts in my hidden staging yards. These are all Atlas CL #6's. All have been "operated" on to insure derailment free operation. My track is laid on sanded and leveled sub-roadbed, sanded and leveled roadbed, and sanded and leveled ties. Other than an occasional open turnout, I have Zero derailments. I have track in some areas, almost 6 feet off of the floor, with NO, derailment fences, protectors, etc. Only thing between the rails and the floor, is air. In over 4 years, not a single derailment there. Whether its an 0-6-0, or my brass H-8 Allegheny, or my brass Y-3.
Larry, (Brakie) is correct. Almost perfect trackwork IS the basic requirement for trouble free operation.
Carey
Keep it between the Rails
Alabama Central Homepage
Nara member #128
NMRA &SER Life member
So I guess nobody noticed all the threads on cracked gears on diesels ( I have HAD to replace gears on two of my son's diesels, I've never had to replace gears on a steamer yet). I've had to adjust the plates on top of trucks to get the bodies to ride level, I had to remove flash from gears in diesels, the wheels have had to be regauged, wires have rubbed on drive shafts, fly wheels and motors, motor mounts have cracked.
Most of the steamers that have problems are designs from the 1960's or 1970's. Whip out a TYCO F9 with the pancake motor on just one truck and then tell me how well diesels run. ALL engines with a crappy design run poorly. On the other hand if you run a modern Roundhouse 2-8-0 with all wheel pick up, it runs smooth as silk.
Its not as much a steam vs diesel arguement its 40 year old design vs a modern design question.
I've found it interesting in this thread that many people have had problems with their equipment. That people have been having problems for years. Their problems may; or, may not be similar to the problems described by other modeler railroaders: the problems might be with newer equipment, might be with older equipment, might be with diesels; or, steam. Then there are those who disagree with everyone and say they never have any problems with any of their locomotives, steam or diesel.
Gathering from what's actually been said and attempting to read between the lines when nothing hard/cold has actually been stated, it paints a pretty clear picture that our equipment can and does have problems! We all understand that track-work can be one of those problems. However, specific problems with specific locomotives have been pointed out.
Since 1988 when I started my current layout I have owned more than 25 locomotives. I have sold off 10 of these, because my interests changed and the locomotive I sold didn't fit my current interests. All but one of the locomotives I've sold were kits, built by me and ran well when I sold them. Is my experiences with 25 locomotives enough for me to have drawn some conclusions? You bet your "Sweet Bippy" it is! Do I have manufacturers I will buy from again, YES! Do I have manufacturers I will never buy from again, probably (I never say never)!
I also have a Varney "Little Joe" Docksider 0-4-0 that if it isn't 60 years old, is dang close and "Keeps on going, like the Eveready Bunny". I can believe there is old "Junk" that was made. But, I also know there is new "Junk" being sold as we speak and some of it is damned expensive!
Take this thread, leave this thread, come to your own conclusions!
jacon12It is a guaranteed conclusion that if I'm running on a layout with 3 other guys and there is a turnout somewhere that is set" wrong" , I... ME, Numero Uno will ALWAYS run foul of it first. And DEE RAIL.
But I am also starting to believe in Grimlins. Usually our operation at the museum is trouble free. Usually days will go by with out a derailment. Over all very few derailments (even then most that do occur are involving ore cars, or happen on silly Saturday when volunteers can bring their own equipment in to run on the museum track.). But last Saturday we had seven. Yes seven derailments in one operating session. After each one the scene was investigated to determine the cause. One was caused by a tree falling over onto the track, another was where a part had broken off a car and fallen down on the track. The others remain a mystery. No apparent reason. For a change they did not involve ore cars.
I personally do not belive that 100% derailment operation is possible. There is too much happenstance in life.
I believe steam are harder to keep on the track because of the leading and trailing trucks. They are not supporting the weight of the model like prototype ones do. For the most part they do not help steer the frame like the prototype ones do. They are more like a little cart being pushed or pulled by the loco. A derailment problem waiting to happen.
NP2626Since 1988 when I started my current layout I have owned more than 25 locomotives. I have sold off 10 of these, because my interests changed and the locomotive I sold didn't fit my current interests.
Wow! Let me get this straight. You completely disassemble EVERY diesel locomotive you own, even brand new ones, and do all that to them?
Jarrell
cjcrescent Do steam engines require more maintenance? YES! Is it difficult? NO! On my layout I have now over 30 steamers, of which 90% are brass. Each one had to be tweaked as it came out of the box initially, but after that I haven't had to do any more maintenance on them other than the 6 month maintenance I do on every loco, including the 6 diesels I own. There is virtually no difference in the maintenance that I do between the two types of engines. As an aside, I do just as much, if not more tweaking to the diesels I own. Each one, no matter the make, has recieved my "treatment", prior to landing on the rails. This consists of taking each diesel completely apart, cleaning out all the grease and oil. Visually inspecting, and removing with a set of files, all the flash that is in the center of the gears, as well as the flash that is on the sides of them. I also do the same to the inside of the truck frames, and the plastic axles the gears are mounted to. After this, I reassemble the trucks, and prior to putting the bottom gear plate on, I fill the gear box with a low abrasive cleanser like Bon-Ami or Bar Keepers Friend. (I used to use powdered toothpaste, but that is impossible to find in my area.) I then chuck the truck into a Dremel, and while holing the truck with one hand, the Dremel with the other, I turn the power on. After about 30-45 Seconds, I let go of the truck, and it will sit there and sway back and forth. I run this for 3-4 minutes. Then the trucks are taken apart again and cleaned of the cleanser, and then reassembled. Each part recieves oil or grease as its put back together. I use barely a drop of oil or grease as they are assembled. There are a few things I do to the motor as well. This generally consists of adjusting the back and forth movement of the commutator with a thrust washer or two. I also slightly ease the pressure of the brushes, by cutting off a ring or two on the brush springs. If necessary, I will also smooth the armature with 1200 grit sandpaper With this method, I been able to completely quiet down Athearns and get them to run as smooth and quiet as an Atlas, or Kato. Some folks recommend just using Pearl Drops, or some other type of liquid toothpaste, but IMHO I've found that the PD method, doesn't do as good of a job, as the dry low abrasive cleanser. 90% of my track is handlain, including most of my turnouts. There are 14 commercial turnouts in my hidden staging yards. These are all Atlas CL #6's. All have been "operated" on to insure derailment free operation. My track is laid on sanded and leveled sub-roadbed, sanded and leveled roadbed, and sanded and leveled ties. Other than an occasional open turnout, I have Zero derailments. I have track in some areas, almost 6 feet off of the floor, with NO, derailment fences, protectors, etc. Only thing between the rails and the floor, is air. In over 4 years, not a single derailment there. Whether its an 0-6-0, or my brass H-8 Allegheny, or my brass Y-3. Larry, (Brakie) is correct. Almost perfect trackwork IS the basic requirement for trouble free operation.
I'm a diesel man myself. Considering almost all the locos I get my hands on are used the first thing I do after taking one out of the box is to completely disassemble it and I mean no piece touching any other piece. There's not much I can do about damage to the body so I generally don't worry about it. Everything else gets thoroughly cleaned and inspected. Any thing that's worn or damaged gets replaced provided I have that part. Otherwise it gets repaired as well as I can do it. I'm not a master mechanic but I can hold my own. With the number of locos I've rebuilt over the years I have quite a bit of experience at it. Once everything is checked, replaced/repaired it all gets reassembled, lubed and tested. Only when it's running to my standard do I check it off the list. I have blue box Athearn's and home-builds that have Athearn parts that run as quite as my best Atlas locos. I've done a small number of steamers as well but they take somewhat longer.
dehusman, I've never had to replace gears on a steamer yet)
I had to replace the axle gear on my BLI I1sa and an idler gear on my BLI J1. I also changed out an axle gear on my Bowser B6sb. I have a Sunset I1sa 2-10-0 that came with the three center drivers blind. It had the compulsion to drop a blind driver between the rails on some curves. I ended up replacing the #2 and 4 driver sets with flanged wheels and left the center blind. No more problems since then.
All my equipment goes through a rigorous tune up and tweaks before they hit the rails. Metal wheels, KD couplers adjusted and pins adjusted, 3 point suspension, and I do not add weight beyond what came with the rolling stock. The only problems I have is getting rear ended by another operator not paying attention. I did have one weird problem. I had a double header of 2-10-0s in front of 48 hoppers and a cabin on the rear. When the train just started cresting the big hill at the club one of the Athearn coupler covers came off and the whole train minus the locos and 1 car went down hill cabin first at nearly the speed of sound until the first curve. There is still a hopper missing in the clubs layout somewhere. The screw must have fell out and the cover was relying on the tabs to hold it.
If anyone is interested in the continuance of this thread and my feelings about the quality of modern model railroad locomotives, I have some interesting information to relay. One of the locomotives I have, that prompted this thread is a Broadway Limited Inc. NYC Hudson J1e that has problems. This locomotive will not stay on the track. The lead truck, the lead driver set and the tender all derail at locations none of my other 14 locomotives have problems with. I am in communication with BLI as we speak, about these problems. It turns out that my locomotive is from the very first production batch that BLI made of this locomotive (I believe this was the first product they brought to the market). At this point in time, they are telling me that they will no longer work on this locomotive, that the product went through a re-design and they will only service the newer design. This is all still in the communication stages and so an outcome is still in the making.
So, in this instance, all of my attempting to use a logical sequence of tests to determine what the problem was, would never have determined a fix as the product came from the manufacturer, faulty from the start!
I find BLI's position on this issue troubling.
I understand that the BLI warranty is limited to one year and that replacement parts are no longer available.
But if the first run of the Hudson was known to be problematic, then BLI ought to stand behind its products.
Since BLI now has a more recent run of the Hudson with different tooling, it should offer some form of deep discount exchange to prior buyers with faulty Hudson locos.
dehusman I've never had to replace gears on a steamer yet
I've never had to replace gears on a steamer yet
Must have never had one of the brass imports from Custom Brass or Hallmark that were made by Dong-Jin. Had to be the worst gearbox ever made, almost every one had to be replaced. The Westside (PSC) gearbox was a great fit. Really learned how to use the NWSL Quarterer on repairing those engines.
The first brass steamers I got, the company I got them from instructed me to run each one for 1 hour per driven axle (half forward / half reverse). Those engines that I did that to are the smoothest running engines I have ever had. One of the PFM C&O 2-6-6-2's that I own runs so smooth and quiet compared to most of the United articulated that some thought I disengaged the front set of drivers.
The chucking of the Athearn power truck in a Dremel is the same procedure a lot of us used when we built a Hobbytown Diesel to wear the gears in when first built. That 30,000 rpm's got rid of any high spots on the gears really quickly.
Rick J
Rule 1: This is my railroad.
Rule 2: I make the rules.
Rule 3: Illuminating discussion of prototype history, equipment and operating practices is always welcome, but in the event of visitor-perceived anacronisms, detail descrepancies or operating errors, consult RULE 1!
NP.
Just because one steamer is giving fits is really no reason to put all the steamers on a shelf. Our club had 2 of the original J1e Hudson and after the updated chip was installed they ran very good. My BLI M1b had an issue derailing the front truck. It turned out to be installed backwards. I am not sure if your Hudson has the same type of mounting. The ends of the crescent shaped hole that the screw is in should be pointing to the rear and the center of the crescent should be to the front. If the front truck and the tender are derailing at the same point is telling me the curve is too sharp or uneven or may have a kink in it.
richhotrain I find BLI's position on this issue troubling. I understand that the BLI warranty is limited to one year and that replacement parts are no longer available. But if the first run of the Hudson was known to be problematic, then BLI ought to stand behind its products. Since BLI now has a more recent run of the Hudson with different tooling, it should offer some form of deep discount exchange to prior buyers with faulty Hudson locos. Rich
Rich,
Respectfully, it is no more troubling than their inability to provide correct parts for my Mikados, and they made no offers of compensation to me.
Or no more troubling than Bachmann's inability to replace/fix "thumper" for you - at least Bachmann gave you something?
I have known lots of people with those Hudsons, I don't know of any with mechanical issues, but it would not surprise me if there is some sort of defect.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL richhotrain I find BLI's position on this issue troubling. I understand that the BLI warranty is limited to one year and that replacement parts are no longer available. But if the first run of the Hudson was known to be problematic, then BLI ought to stand behind its products. Since BLI now has a more recent run of the Hudson with different tooling, it should offer some form of deep discount exchange to prior buyers with faulty Hudson locos. Rich Rich, Respectfully, it is no more troubling than their inability to provide correct parts for my Mikados, and they made no offers of compensation to me. Or no more troubling than Bachmann's inability to replace/fix "thumper" for you - at least Bachmann gave you something? I have known lots of people with those Hudsons, I don't know of any with mechanical issues, but it would not surprise me if there is some sort of defect. Sheldon
Sheldon, that is exactly my point, so we are in agreement.
Regarding NP2626's Hudson, I too have a first run BLI Hudson that had problems, but those problems were solved with a QSI upgrade chip. It seems that BLI is acknowledging a fault with the geared driver wheelset, yet they will do nothing to rectify their error.
locoi1sa NP. Just because one steamer is giving fits is really no reason to put all the steamers on a shelf. Our club had 2 of the original J1e Hudson and after the updated chip was installed they ran very good. My BLI M1b had an issue derailing the front truck. It turned out to be installed backwards. I am not sure if your Hudson has the same type of mounting. The ends of the crescent shaped hole that the screw is in should be pointing to the rear and the center of the crescent should be to the front. If the front truck and the tender are derailing at the same point is telling me the curve is too sharp or uneven or may have a kink in it. Pete
Where have I said that I am putting all steam engines on the shelf? Please read post #1 of this thread. From your description, the Hudson and the M1b don't have the same lead truck, so that is not the problem. Also, the tender derails in one place, the lead truck derails in a couple/few different locations and the front driver set derails in yet another!
I appreciate that people take the time to make suggestions on potential fixes. However, I have run all sorts of tests on this locomotive to see if I could determine a fix. As I stated in my most recent post, BLI has admitted this first production batch of the J1e had problems that were re-designed out of the current design. We are therefore talking about a faulty product, not a problem with my layout.
If your club has BLI NYC J1e Hudsons that are working great, then that is good and I'm happy for you!
Yesterday, I got out the box for my BLI NYC Hudson J1e, looking for the original invoice. A part of what I found, I have no recollection of and that is paper work showing that I sent this locomotive back to Broadway Limited Inc., for the exact same problems it now has in December of 2003. Per information their service department has sent me, this would have been at the end of the 1st production run of this locomotive. Information BLI has told me indicates that at the end of the 1st production run, they knew this product had problems.
Correspondence with BLI's Service Department appears complete, they say there is nothing further they can do for me. I have therefore sent an email to their Customer Service Department and got a response back, stating that my email had been forwarded to the Sales Manager.
Yesterday, I got a response from Broadway Limited Inc's service department stating they need my mail address so they can send an RA# for the return my locomotive and upon receipt of this, they will send me one of the present production batches of BLI's NYC Hudson J1e.
If this comes to pass, I will have very high praise for Broadway Limited's dedication to their customers!
Very happy today! On the 14th of March I sent my BLI J1e Hudson back to BLI. I understood they would replace it as my old one was unrepairable. Today, the box with the new loco was delivered. I opened the box, looked the new loco over and plugged the tender into the loco and gave it a short test run to see if it worked. I was surprised first off that as the engine started to move, a puff of smoke belched from the stack. I found the sounds provided in the new loco where far superior to the sounds my old loco made. The whistle was much more realistic, there was also some mechanical sounds made, when the loco was switched from forward to reverse and vice vs. The bell was also more realistic than what was provided in the sound system of the older locomotive.
I am very happy with how BLI handled this situation and would not hesitate to purchase another BLI product, if I could ever put enough "Scratch" together to do so! I am debating selling this locomotive, as I am not really interested in painting and re-decaling this locomotive to look like Northern Pacific's A1 Northern NP2626 (shy a set of drivers, of course).
If I decide I might keep it, I will need test drive it more to see if this one will stay on the tracks.
Mark, that is great news.
Give it a test run and report back.
Post a photo.
Kudos to BLI.
jacon12 Wow! Let me get this straight. You completely disassemble EVERY diesel locomotive you own, even brand new ones, and do all that to them? Jarrell
Yep, every single one of them. I do something similar to my steam as well. I've replaced gearboxes in steamers before I've even run them. Every one of my steamers are balanced and have had weight removed or added as needed. I'm very particular about my trackwork and the locos that run on them.