I am old enough that I can remember steam engines at the end of their active service lives in the early 1950s. I have loved steam and continue to do so. I love books on steam locomotives and have over the years amassed quite a collection of books and videos on Steam and in particular the Steam Engines of the Northern Pacific. I have however found that as I get older and similar to how the real railroads also found, that the higher maintenance of steamers is becoming less and less attractive and may well be selling off all but my most reliable and well built steam engines and taking the equity I had in the Steamers I sell and buying more 1st generation diesels.
Are any of you coming to the same conclusions?
NP 2626 "Northern Pacific, really terrific"
Northern Pacific Railway Historical Association: http://www.nprha.org/
NP2626 Are any of you coming to the same conclusions?
Absolutely.
While some will surely reply in defense of steam, they are a real pain in the neck. The biggest problem is that they are prone to derailment. Yeah, I know, it is my track work. But, I have spent years improving my track work and, while the derailments have greatly diminished, diesel is clearly more reliable than steam.
If I ever build my Dream Layout, passenger operations at Dearborn Station in Chicago in the 1950's, I will probably dump my 11 steamers on eBay.
Rich
Alton Junction
Same here - I learned the problems the Steamers had way back in the late 70's!
Now I know the newer stuff works a whole lot better than they did back then.
BUT!
I am into OPs and do allow some Operators to run Steam on my layout on special occasions!
I find they they still have problems doing anything other than mainline running.
And they still have problems with turnouts even #8s !
So I have never regretted leaving them behind.
And besides they would not fit into my 70s to 80s era layout anyway.
BOB H - Clarion, PA
I guess when/if I finally make the decision to sell off the steamers I'm considering getting rid of, it will be my newer ones. My Roundhouse MDC kit built 10 wheelers and 0-6-0 switcher, my Rivarossi Mike and PFM Samhongsa Y1 Consolidation, I will keep.
Rich, I agree, it could be my track work, however, I have worked on it and worked on it over the years and some problem places are only a problem for one particular steamer and everything else works just fine! Although it certainly can be my track work, the fact that it is only one locomotive that has a problem with it leads me to believe it's a failure of that particular locomotive!
cmrproducts Same here - I learned the problems the Steamers had way back in the late 70's! I am into OPs and do allow some Operators to run Steam on my layout on special occasions! I find they they still have problems doing anything other than mainline running.
Wow, now that is a telling statement.
My BRVRR is a transition era railroad so I run both steam and diesel routinely. I do not do very much in the way of operations as most of my personal steamers, a Hudson, Niagara, and Mikado, are intended for mainline operations.
My grandson, however, is a steam fanatic. His locos run the gambit from a UP Challenger down to little Bachmann tank engines.
With a few exceptions, most notably the small tank engines, we have very little trouble with derailments, on the mainline, sidings, or in the reverse loop. It does happen occasionally but not enough to discourage the use of the steamers.
While most of my diesels are transition era F7s, early GPs and RSs, I have several larger diesel locos, E7s, E8s, PAs, FP45s and SD40s. There are even a few modern AMTRAC Genesis locos.
In my experience the reliability and track-ability of our locomotive fleet is about equal between steam and diesel. But, the maintenance time required by the steamers and their initial cost, is quite a bit higher than their brethren.
Remember its your railroad
Allan
Track to the BRVRR Website: http://www.brvrr.com/
just go give you guys a "heads up" when you start trying to duplicate prototype operations you may also find that cabooses can be a royal pain.
Charlie
I have to admit that I am the opposite. I have very few diesels mostly early ALCO's and Baldwins with a few GP's and SD's. While I love running steam I have shied away to buying the largest steam that most model manufactures are shoving out to us. I do have one Y3 in PRR paint. I am like the prototype and run the bread and butter 0-6-0, 2-6-0, and 2-8-0 in just about every location and leave the big guys to drag and push freight on the mains. All my passenger trains are pulled by 4-6-2, and 4-8-2 with a rare T1 4-4-4-4 out front. Mainline freight is handled with multiple 2-10-0 and 2-10-4 locos.
There is nothing like it when you run a pair of decapods on the front of a sixty car train with a pair behind pushing on the clubs long uphill climb. Whistles blowing, cylinders barking, rods turning and crowds watching. All that's missing is the smell of acrid smoke and steam mist raining down. As a plus to this scenario I also get 2 switching moves. One at the bottom of the hill pulling the cabin and running around it to add the pushers in front. and another at the top of the hill putting the cabin back behind the last car.
Most people run into problems with steamers when they use them for jobs they were not designed for. I would never use my T1 for switching passenger cars. I use an 0-6-0 for that and the T1 couples on only when the train is ready to go.
If you don't want your steamers anymore send them my way.
Pete
I pray every day I break even, Cause I can really use the money!
I started with nothing and still have most of it left!
You can take my steam away from me when you can pry it from my cold, dead hands.
:)
Two seasons in my Canada, Modelling and Paintball.
I use my steamers where they would have prototypically run. Having been in the hobby since the 1960s and built my share of steam kits and done my share of steam kit bashing, for people to think I am a neophyte; or, that I can't use a logical sequence, to trouble shoot problems when they have arisen, is a mistake! I have done all of these things and the conclusion I have come to (above) is that I no longer feel the endeavor worthwhile!
I have retired, I have fought the good fight, I was a skilled tool & die maker and tool & die designer. The computer and CAD-CAM has superseded the need for these skills. What I mean to say here is: In retirement, I hope to simplify my life.
Those of you who want to continue running and continuing to purchase Steam Locomotives certainly have my blessing! I am interested in what you are finding as good equipment in HO Steam Locomotives; however, excuse me for only being interested in reading about it, as I have been there and done that!
Nobody here is attempting to take anyones steam locos away from them!
I had brass steamers when I was in my teens in the early 60s and after that I've had very few steam engines..I guess the steam bug never got a good grip on me even those I witness the last days of steam in the mid 50s..IIRC the last steamer in Columbus (Ohio) had its fire dropped in '58.
Of late I had passing thoughts of buying a steamer but,I doubt if that will ever become a reality due to the reported problems.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
charlie9 just go give you guys a "heads up" when you start trying to duplicate prototype operations you may also find that cabooses can be a royal pain. Charlie
Only if you allow that..As a brakeman I never seen a caboose get in the way.
Although attempting to operate prototypically is what I am doing right now, I've never had problems with my cabooses. What Royal Pains have you had?
in response to your post about cabooses and my attitude toward them;
this only counts if you play mind games with your operations and i am sure many of us do.
1-the cab must be taken to the cab track upon arrival or at least set over out of the way since we don't want to switch with it next to the engine.
2-the cab must be switched out and pulled from the cab track so it can be tacked onto the outbound train.
3-older wooden cabs must be carefully handled when shoving cuts to avoid crushing them. (see TRRA shelter cabs)
4-if your road has assigned cabeese, the fifo system must be applied which requires a lot of switching or at least a double ended caboose track.
5-road crews are continually complaining about the condition of the very pool caboose they trashed coming in. (in HO scale you can barely hear them shout)
6-cabeese are the second most expensive piece of rolling stock on my railroad after locomotives.
7-they generate absolutely no revenue unless you are running mixed trains or smuggling something..
8-they are the most costly piece of equipment to maintain after locomotives.
9-they are where most personal injuries occur to crew members. (personal injury settlements are paid in HO scale dollars so that takes the edge off)
10-they are a hiding place for yard clerks and car knockers, especially in cold or wet weather.
now for the upside.
A-they give my little spectrum 0-8-0 something to do since it can barely pull it's own tender.
B-their absence tells me the train broke in two while going through the adjacent room.
C-they do look neat.
D-I haven't figured out how to rig a tail hose for shoving in HO scale yet.
be happy in your work
I run 90% steam from BLI, Rivarossi, PCM (BLI), Proto 200 Heritage, Trix, Lionel HO, and Sunset Brass Models. The rest comprise the following: Proto 2000 SW8, Proto 2000 FA2/FB2, Atlas Trainmaster H24-66, and two Athearn Genesis SD-75M's. Those SD-75's gave me as many fits on my last layout as the one steamer that made me rip up 3' of track, relay it, and reballast and weather it...my BLI Brass Hybrid Union Pacific 2-10-2. I checked the poor-reputation trucks for being twisted on a shiny flat counter-top. Nada. When I saw that they were nice and straight, the inevitable conclusion was that my outer rails on the two curves, in small arcs, were lower than I had accepted they were based on steamer performance....all ten of them at that time.
So, diesels have a way of humbling smug people who think they have their rails beaten into submission. (My hand is up.)
Secondly, I don't run any of my steamers much. My longest serving one, the BLI Hudson with QSI, has perhaps 3 running hours on it. So, I have yet to experience the disappointment of a steamer that suddenly needs some serious attention...unless I drop three of them off a shelf....happened to me.
Lastly, I couldn't imagine being in the hobby without at least one steamer. I grew up around steam, and that is what keeps me in the hobby. It's not to say I don't grealy admire the brutish looks of an SD70ACe: I do, and would love to have one. I won't part with any one of my steamers for it, though. In hobby terms, it would be like selling one of my kids. Unthinkable.
Crandell
This is a question that's near to my heart. My prototype ran steam, long after they started buying diesels, up until they sold it off in 1980 -- and the Silverton is a long way from a last run still.
I have standard, narrowgauge, and dual-gauge track. I have the standard issue of not quite as much room as I'd like, but was able to maintain a 28" min radius on the SG main. But there just wasn't enough room for my Durango engine service facilities to be dual-gauge without really cramping things. I decided that the narrowgauge would run both steam and diesel, reflecting more traffic and a Rio Grande willing to invest in its NG system. But SG is all diesel, perhaps better reflecting real life. I still may take the plunge for a SG steamer some day, especially if Blackstone decides to move forward with a Rio Grande SG steamer as their motive power survey seemed to indicate.
Blackstone, hmmmm? you say. Yes, in a nutshell, if you've not had the chance to operate any of their wonderful K-27 and C-19 locos, you don't know what you're missing. In fact, you'd be wondering what all the fuss is about steam not running as well as diesel. In any case, Blackstone sets the bar for what we should expect in terms of steam loco performance.
Blackstone's locos are built by Kader. Bachmann is one of Kader's brands and it's obvious improvements have been great over the last decade. If you haven't seen some of the B-mann's stuff lately, it's obvious that the Blackstone has raised the bar and others have decided to try to keep up, which is of benefit to the consumer. Frankly, if B-mann sells a loco that's 80% of what Blackstone builds into theirs, you'll still have a darn fine loco -- and it shows in recent B-mann offerings, which even more amazingly cost about half of what a Blackstone sells for due to the economies of scale in standard gauge.
Brass can be finicky and some of them are and always will be a basket cases. On the other hand, I've installed Tsunami's in 3 brass HOn3 steam locos and they are darn near the equal of my Blackstones now that they're tuned and tweaked. That does take skills -- and maybe even a little voodoo
Nah, no deal with the devil is really necessary. What does the trick is putting wipers on everything but the loco lead and trailing trucks.
I'll agree that diesel models tend to run well, even straight out of the box. But steam is out there and worth the trouble if you want to run it.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
NP2626Are any of you coming to the same conclusions?
Dr. Frankendiesel aka Scott Running BearSpace Mouse for president!15 year veteran fire fighterCollector of Apple //e'sRunning Bear EnterprisesHistory Channel Club life member.beatus homo qui invenit sapientiam
I think I will mention a sweet little 2-8-2 I had in 89/90.
At best it would pull 12 factory weigh Athearn 34' hopper cars around the Galion club's layout since it had a 2% grade and the engine was light.
I had to cut the wires to the smoke unit since I didn't want the smoke.
I paid a whooping $35.00 for this engine at the Berea train show.
It was a IHC 2-8-2.
For the price paid it ran flawlessly.
Well, I grew up with steam in the 'forties and most of the 'fifties, so that's what I have always been attracted to. My great-uncle was a brakeman on the Espee, and my first train ride was in the cab of an AC-6 Cab Forward helper locomotive over Donner Pass in 1946.
My own MR is about 98% steam, with 1 F-3 ABBA diesel and one E6 ABB diesel set and that's it. Everything else encompasses steam from 2-8-0's up to 2-8-8-4's. Mostly brass. Mostly re-worked and re-balanced and re-motored to optimum effiency. And yes, tinkered with. I'm my own roundhouse and shop, LOL, and for me, that's half of the fun of owning steam. My oldest brass locos are probably older than some of our forum members, but they still keep running along smooth, quiet, powerful and sweet. For me, the esthetics outweigh the maintenance.
Not to start an argument, and this is strictly a personal opinion, but most diesels to me are just flat out boring. More efficient, yes. But boring. I'd much rather watch a clanking steamer than a humming diesel.
And since I'm 73, I doubt that I'll be converting to diesel. I've got too many steamers I like to run.
Tom
Tom View my layout photos! http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/mm310/TWhite-014/Rio%20Grande%20Yuba%20River%20Sub One can NEVER have too many Articulateds!
I used to have mostly steam. Got my layout running and now I have more 1st gen diesel. Some modern steam runs great. My Proto 2000 0-6-0 and 0-8-0, no problem, Spectrum, can run just as good with a lot of their problem being in their wiring harness, it needs to be positioned correctly to run great. Got rid of all my MDC except for some shays that run great, also still have some Rivarossi That run great that I turned down the flanges on (I run code 70 and some 18" radius curves).
I am modeling a very specific place at a very specific time, with the locos (steam, diesel and catenary) that were there then. If my estate executor will have a problem with that...
And, no, I don't find myself running more diesels than steam, or compromising the action I saw in 1964 in any other way.
As for maintenance, I look on that as a scheduled, routine activity - not a sudden need to fix a problem.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - with the locos I saw there)
Well, no, I don't think I would ever stop modeling steam, especially with locos as good as they are now.
Back in the 60's and 70's you might have had a point here, but not now.
I would suggest that many people have problems with steam for two reasons - poor trackwork and curves and turnouts that are too sharp for the locos they buy.
My curves are 36" radius and above. Any turnout that a mainline size steam loco runs on is #6 or larger.
All my curves have easements. All my grades are smoothly transitioned into.
And even with those track standards I restrict the rigid wheel base of the steam locos I buy to about 20 scale feet. I only have one exception, I do have one Spectrum USRA 2-10-2 which has a rigid wheelbase of 21'.
This means no 2-12-2's, or 80" drivered 4-8-4's like a GS4, or similar monsters of the rails.
As Crandel pointed out, modern long wheelbase diesels with 3 or4 axle trucks can be just as problematic as any steam loco.
All my diesels are 1st generation and most ride on B-B trucks.
Are model steam locos a little "fussy" - YES - just read again my post about "improving Bachmann locos". Are they always perfect out of the box - no, but a lot of diesels aren't either. But for me, those little details, once worked out, are never a problem later.
A little extra tender weight, a slighly improved drawbar, some BullFrogSnot or extra weight for pulling power - no big deal, just part of the fun for me.
I like diesels too, an ABBA set of Alco FA's is a cool sight at the head of a 50 car freight train - but so are three Spectrum 2-8-0's or a pair of heavy Mountains.
Sheldon
Hi,
I've been playing with trains - steam & diesel - since the mid 1950s. Model steam locos have always been more particular and demanding and less forgiving than diesels. It is simply the nature of the beast.
I'm pushing 69, and with the proper tools, lighting, magnifiers, and patience, I can still work on both. But it is rather obvious that at some point, the steamers will end up on display...........
ENJOY !
Mobilman44
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
I'm gonna hold onto my 3 steamers and maybe get more just because I enjoy watching them run, besides can't run the pre BN merger roads without some steam. besides I love my GS4, not a BN road but it's still pretty darn cool.
SP&S modeler, 1960's give or take a decade or two for some equipment.
http://www.youtube.com/user/SGTDUPREY?feature=guide
Gary DuPrey
N scale model railroader
Burlington Northern #24 I'm gonna hold onto my 3 steamers and maybe get more just because I enjoy watching them run, besides can't run the pre BN merger roads without some steam.
I'm gonna hold onto my 3 steamers and maybe get more just because I enjoy watching them run, besides can't run the pre BN merger roads without some steam.
CB&Q, N.P. S.P. &S. and G.N. (the pre-B.N. merged lines) basically ran for probably close to 15 years after the fires were dropped from their steam locomotives. This would get you from 1st generation diesels to SD45s, U25Cs and U28Cs.
NP2626 Burlington Northern #24 I'm gonna hold onto my 3 steamers and maybe get more just because I enjoy watching them run, besides can't run the pre BN merger roads without some steam. CB&Q, N.P. S.P. &S. and G.N. (the pre-B.N. merged lines) basically ran for probably close to 15 years after the fires were dropped from their steam locomotives. This would get you from 1st generation diesels to SD45s, U25Cs and U28Cs.
Well, I had originally intended to set up my layout so that it could represent one in either the late '40s-early '50s or the mid-'70s. In addition to changing the locos, rolling stock, and vehicles, some structures would have been changed out for ones suitable to each period.When I finally realised that that was an overly-ambitious plan for someone who worked so slowly, I got rid of all my '70s rolling stock , almost all of the diesels, and much of the '50s rolling stock, too. What rolling stock that was left I re-worked into more suitable models for a late '30s layout, and except for a diesel-powered doodlebug, it's 100% steam.All of the steam has been modified in one way or another to make it operate better and more reliably, and I also have a somewhat regular maintenance programme. My steamers, like Sheldon's, are moderately-sized locos suited to the layout, and are mostly from Bachmann or Athearn. The mainline locos (Mikes and Consolidations) do all the switching chores along the route, and operate almost completely without problems.
While there are a lot of very tempting diesels being offered nowadays, management is firmly committed to steam.
Wayne
buildings would probably remain the same because there's a lot of steam era structures still standing in tenino, bucoda, and centralia. vehicles and rolling stock would have to be swapped but it would be worth it. NP in your original post you noted that steam was slightly more expensive than diesels, I agree steam in N scale is usually in the triple digits though my Light mountain was a steal at $70. I looked at how much Z scale steam was, I died those things go into the 4 digit #'s.
With the apparent reliability of modern HO steamers I'm half tempted to backdate my fleet to an all steam roster, except I like Baldwin Sharknoses too much, so guess I'll stick to the "transition era."
Cheers, the Bear.
"One difference between pessimists and optimists is that while pessimists are more often right, optimists have far more fun."
"JaBear" With the apparent reliability of modern HO steamers I'm half tempted to backdate my fleet to an all steam roster, except I like Baldwin Sharknoses too much, so guess I'll stick to the "transition era." Cheers, the Bear.
My experience with the reliability of modern HO Steamers is obviously quite different than some of yours. Although I haven't found a whole lot to buy of modern steam, given that I need Northern Pacific. What I have bought has not been reliable and certainly was not cheap, by any means.
We've already gone down the road arguing about the quality and reliability of modern steam equipment. I have no doubt those of you who believe that modern steam offerings are better, have your valid reasons for believing so. My opinion, based on my years in the hobby and my mechanical abilities is different; but, just as valid. Some of you claim to never have problems with anything, maybe thinking that espousing this position makes you look superior to all of the rest of us and for me at least, leaves me with the opinion that your opinions are really not worth reading.
I love steam engines and am very interested and will continue to be interested in them. However, I have soured on them from a modeling standpoint, feeling they are unreliable, too fragile and far to expensive. Heck, I don't like the prices of diesels, either; but, the manufacturers are getting what their asking, so what are we going to do?