Steam VS Diesel/Diesel VS Steam

[mobilman44]

May I add...........

The newer offerings of steam locos are like the newer offerings of autos (real)..................

When working, they are MUCH better than previous models.  But, todays selections are MUCH more complicated than the early ones.

Like so many electronic devices (and our fancy locos are just that), they either work, or they don't.  

But it all comes down to this..........   If you want them, get them.   If you don't, then don't.   I certainly would not blame you or praise you or criticize you for doing either.

For me.......... my BLI ATSF Northern is absolutely the greatest!

[jacon12]

I'm 69 and for some reason have never been all that crazy about steam locos.  Oh, I have several ranging from a 3 truck Shay to a Norfolk and Western 2-6-6-4 Class A.  In between are a Consolidations and Mikados  Out of all those my favorite is the Bachmann 2-8-0 Consolidation.

But a few years ago I noticed that I started favoring diesels, anything from small switchers to the big SD 70m2 that I own.  Maybe it's because thats what I see out on the real railroads, maybe it's because there are 'usually' less wheels to deal with.

I don't know, probably never will.

Oh, I forgot to mention I mostly model the transition era give or take 50 years.,...  

 

 

 

[ATLANTIC CENTRAL]

NP2626

"JaBear"

With the apparent reliability of modern HO steamers I'm half tempted to backdate my fleet to an all steam roster, except I like Baldwin Sharknoses too much, so guess I'll stick to the "transition era." 

Cheers, the Bear.

My experience with the reliability of modern HO Steamers is obviously quite different than some of yours.  Although I haven't found a whole lot to buy of modern steam, given that I need Northern Pacific.  What I have bought has not been reliable and certainly was not cheap, by any means. 

We've already gone down the road arguing about the quality and reliability of modern steam equipment.  I have no doubt those of you who believe that modern steam offerings are better, have your valid reasons for believing so.  My opinion, based on my years in the hobby and my mechanical abilities is different; but, just as valid.  Some of you claim to never have problems with anything, maybe thinking that espousing this position makes you look superior to all of the rest of us and for me at least, leaves me with the opinion that your opinions are really not worth reading.

I love steam engines and am very interested and will continue to be interested in them.  However, I have soured on them from a modeling standpoint, feeling they are unreliable, too fragile and far to expensive.  Heck, I don't like the prices of diesels, either; but, the manufacturers are getting what their asking, so what are we going to do?

As Andre and I have pointed out repeatedly, adjusted for inflation, most of today's models cost the same or less than their counterparts in the past. We cannot however alter your perception of price or value or change the dynamics of your personal economy.

In 1983 a Mantua Pacific was $66 - adjusted for inflation that is $152.00 today. You can still buy that loco new today, with a number of improvements but it is still "basic" in detail. It's retail price is $179.00 - BUT they can be had all day long, as many as you want for around $120, or $170 with sound - effectively in the same price range as 1983 but now it runs much better with can motor, better pickup, etc. 

Minor problems or not, warranty replacements or not, minor "on site" adjustments or not, all my Bachmann, Proto, BLI/PCM, and even IHC locos run better than any steam loco I had in 1975 (Mantua, Varney, etc.).

And again, my experience is not just as a consumer, but as someone who worked in a hobby shop, did train repairs, and tested every new loco that left the hobby shop.

As to the issue of "fragile" - I build and operate model trains - they are fragile - if you want toy trains, Lionel, MTH, Model Power, Marklin and several others are in the business of making rugged toy trains - in O and HO.

I will keep the fragile fine detail on my trains thank you.

Sorry your experience has been different, and I'm sorry the NP has not been better represented, neither has the B&O and a host of other roads that would seem to be popular.

Sheldon

[mobilman44]

Atlantic Central summed it all up pretty well.............

I've also found a number of neat RRs under represented over the years, with the Illinois Central being one of them.  Their big steamers with the ugly massive square sandboxes are available only in brass - if you can find/afford them.  Yes, some of the model builders - even BLI - will take a generic model and slap "everybody's" name on them, whether appropriate or not.  To me that is just wrong, but they must sell - and to the model mfgs, its a business.........  

To paraphrase what I wrote earlier, it is what it is......   If we think the offerings are too expensive, too fragile, too generic, or just unreliable, there is nothing we can do to change that.   If you don't like them, don't buy them.   And if you buy them and don't like them, sell them on Ebay and don't buy anymore.

That's a neat thing about this hobby......... my likes/dislikes, rules or lack thereof are perfectly fine - for me.   And I respect that same right for anyone else that has a piece of track and a loco..............

Gotta say...........   haven't we had this conversation before? and before that? and before that?????? 

[Rastafarr]

twhite

Not to start an argument, and this is strictly a personal opinion, but most diesels to me are just flat out boring.  More efficient, yes.  But boring.   I'd much rather watch a clanking steamer than a humming diesel. 

Y'know, I'll second Tom on this one. I have a thing for PAs -- those things are rolling art-deco eye-candy -- but watching even them run is a bit on the dry side. Steamers, high-maintenance though they may be, just have more going on. It keeps my gnat-like attention span from wandering. 

Not that my signature leaves much doubt as to where my loyalties lay...

Stu

[jacon12]

 (tic)

Tom... Stu.., how can you call this beautiful, efficient machine BORING!!  Look at its clean lines, its highly efficient ...... uh... windshield wipers!  Its... its... toilet up front in the nose.  Ok, you can't see that but it's there.

(at least I think it still is on an SD 70 M2)

 

 

 

[Geared Steam]

NP2626

Are any of you coming to the same conclusions?   

No, it comes with the territory. 

[IRONROOSTER]

I like and run both steam and diesels.  Maybe it's the larger size, but my S scale locomotives don't give me any trouble as long as the curves aren't too tight.

Enjoy

Paul

[twhite]

jacon12

 (tic)

Tom... Stu.., how can you call this beautiful, efficient machine BORING!!  Look at its clean lines, its highly efficient ...... uh... windshield wipers!  Its... its... toilet up front in the nose.  Ok, you can't see that but it's there.

(at least I think it still is on an SD 70 M2)

 

 

 

jacon12

 (tic)

Tom... Stu.., how can you call this beautiful, efficient machine BORING!!  Look at its clean lines, its highly efficient ...... uh... windshield wipers!  Its... its... toilet up front in the nose.  Ok, you can't see that but it's there.

(at least I think it still is on an SD 70 M2)

 

 

 

Jacon: 

Dang, forgot about the cab-toilet (we have to use the coal pile on the Yuba River Sub, lol).  One thing I will say about that NS SD-whatzit is that NS has come up with some Heritage schemes that are INCREDIBLY handsome, unlike the UP "Heritage" units that look as if a fifth grader had a head-on collision with Picasso on a VERY bad day! 

But I'm afraid that my heart still belongs to big, clanking beasties like this:

Tom

[locoi1sa]

People people people.

  Lets not turn this into another one of those steam vs. diesel threads. Or when is steam going to die type of conversations. Run what you feel comfortable running. It is your railroad, you are the boss, CEO, sometimes CFO, Superintendent of motive power and so on.

  I will explain why I would rather have steam over diesels is maybe because I work on their smaller cousins everyday. Yes I have done some work on the large bore engines such as ALCO and early EMD engines used in large mining equipment. Steam locomotives were living breathing beasts of burden that turn the switch, push the button and go can never replace. There are some great looking internal combusted locomotives out there. I do have an AC4400 in the GE demonstrator scheme that looks great to me, but my mom hates it. She was forced to retire from GE and would rather never see the logo again.

   I can understand why some people would like to run steam but have no idea about what to do when they do not run good. Some people don't know which end of the screw driver to use. We can not fault them. They never had to rely on ones self to tinker or do anything beyond putting the square block in the square hole. If you feel like you have done your time with putting all those wheels on the rails then the simple reality of difficulty will stifle your modeling for good. Maybe I am stubborn and giving up is not in my nature. Fight to the end I say! 

           Pete

[BRAKIE]

Guys,If I may quote my grandpas..

Any darn fool that likes a steam engine never had to fired one of those fool things and the faster they are scrapped the better..

To be far shortly after PRR dropped the last fires my other grandpa retired saying "I'm not about to run a truck on rails."

So there you have it..Two old engineers with different points of view concerning a steam engine.

Needless to say as a kid I like seeing shiny new PRR and N&W GP9s and RS11s.

[richhotrain]

locoi1sa

People people people.

I can understand why some people would like to run steam but have no idea about what to do when they do not run good. Some people don't know which end of the screw driver to use. We can not fault them. They never had to rely on ones self to tinker or do anything beyond putting the square block in the square hole.

Pete, Pete, Pete,

Don't you think, maybe, that you are being just a bit harsh?

The thread is about maintenance and performance of steamers and whether it is worth it, not whether someone knows which end of the screw driver is the blade.

Rich

[Texas Zepher]

NP2626

I have however found that as I get older and similar to how the real railroads also found, that the higher maintenance of steamers is becoming less and less attractive and may well be selling off all but my most reliable and well built steam engines and taking the equity I had in the Steamers I sell and buying more 1st generation diesels.  

Are any of you coming to the same conclusions?

Nope the opposite.  I've had that philosophy for many many years and sort of regret it.  I am trying to increase the steam presence on the layout.  Even thinking about backdating into the Classic Steam era.

[Texas Zepher]

mobilman44

my BLI ATSF Northern is absolutely the greatest!

I've got three of those (won one in a raffle) and one of the 2-10-2s also.   I had trouble with one of the valve gear because a screw came loose and it was just sort of hanging there slopping back and forth.   It eventually bound up.  Simply  re-aligned and tightened it up and been great ever since.   They look so good on the point of a heavyweight or streamlined passenger set as well as a string of reefers.

[Texas Zepher]

jacon12

(tic)

Tom... Stu.., how can you call this beautiful, efficient machine BORING!!

Easy,   I remember the first time I saw an SD70.  I thought, "wow a new railroading low.  Look at that ugly utilitarian box of a loco".  I don't see how beauty can even come into the discussion.  All the fancy paint in the world can't hide "the box".   Can't argue with the efficient part, but that doesn't make it interesting.

[Burlington Northern #24]

Texas Zepher

mobilman44

my BLI ATSF Northern is absolutely the greatest!

I've got three of those (won one in a raffle) and one of the 2-10-2s also.   I had trouble with one of the valve gear because a screw came loose and it was just sort of hanging there slopping back and forth.   It eventually bound up.  Simply  re-aligned and tightened it up and been great ever since.   They look so good on the point of a heavyweight or streamlined passenger set as well as a string of reefers.

my bachmann northern looks great with it's heavyweights all I have to do is weight the tender and throw some bullfrog snot onto her drivers and she'll be good as new. 

I enjoy both steam and diesel, I missed two great eras but have come into one where modern diesels rule the rails. I love the way my SD70Mac and my AC4400CW look, to be honest I feel like they fit in with my mismatched fleet. 

[doctorwayne]

NP2626

......Some of you claim to never have problems with anything, maybe thinking that espousing this position makes you look superior to all of the rest of us and for me at least, leaves me with the opinion that your opinions are really not worth reading.

I love steam engines and am very interested and will continue to be interested in them.  However, I have soured on them from a modeling standpoint, feeling they are unreliable, too fragile and far to expensive.  Heck, I don't like the prices of diesels, either; but, the manufacturers are getting what their asking, so what are we going to do?

I think that some of this relates to the loco itself, and some to the expectations of the modeller.  Many modern plastic steamers have a lot more added-on details, making them more fragile than the old cast metal steamers like the ones I started with.  As someone mentioned, the newer ones, when they run, are usually much superior to what we once had.  However, there are more ways for these new ones to not run, too, meaning they may also be harder to repair.
My experience with older steam includes Tyco/Mantua, John English, and Bowser, along with a number of brass steamers.  The first three listed were well-made and pretty-well indestructible, but their non-plated brass drivers and tender wheels made them unreliable if one neglected to keep the treads clean (and the brass rail which I used at the time needed the same attention).

The brass locos had plated wheels, but running qualities varied from excellent to none - the none was re-motored and is still in use on my layout.
My modern (plastic) steam is limited to Bachmann (11 locos) early Athearn Genesis (5 locos) and Proto (1 loco).  The Proto 0-8-0 ran well, but could pull almost nothing - I liked the loco enough to try to figure a way to add weight to it, and once I got it to pull reasonably well, I re-detailed it completely to more closely resemble a CNR loco of which I had photos.  It is better detailed than it was originally, and the detail is more solidly-applied.  The operational improvements (adding weight) were accomplished by removing all DCC-related equipment, along with the headlight circuitry and the flywheel, which was so small as to be useless.  I then filled all available interior space with lead, and fabricated new air reservoirs from lead-filled brass tubing.  I haven't bothered to add tender pick-up (this is one of the early ones without it) as it runs well as-is:

The Athearn steamers are all Mikados, with two bought new and three "used" - the latter ones at good prices because of their very poor pulling capabilities and supposed difficulties with cracked gears.   I figured a way to increase and balance the weight, making them into respectable pullers, and re-wired them in the process, also adding tender pick-up.  They are beautiful-running locos, and while they've been re-detailed only moderately, are very durable and reliable.  The four currently in-service have not yet experienced any gear problems, despite their usual task of handling 100oz. coal trains on 2.5% grades.  The fifth loco, awaiting re-building as a CNR loco, was bought used with the gear already replaced with one from NWSL:

Of the Bachmann locos, only five are currently in service, while the remaining six are undergoing re-working, either to match specific prototypes or simply to change their appearance in keeping with my free-lanced road's practices.

This USRA Light Mountain has probably been the most troublesome of the lot, with excessive gear noise, broken valve gear, out-of-quarter drivers, and trouble with the plug system.  The gear noise was eliminated with a simple styrene shim and the drivers re-quartered "by-eye" (I have the NWSL Quarterer, but this was easier).  The connecting link in the valve gear was bent, and when I attempted to straighten it, it broke.  I fabricated a new one from sheet brass, then attached it with rivets made from brass wire.  The plug problem was traced to a poor connection within one half of a plug, and since I run with DC, I decided to re-wire the loco completely, including a new plug system.  This freed-up room in the boiler for more weight and room in the tender for both more weight and a modelled open coal bunker.  The new plug system (used on all of my locos) is much more reliable, and all locos are wired so that they can be run without their tenders - a useful option when troubleshooting or performing maintenance:

The other four Bachmanns in service are Consolidations, all slightly re-detailed, with the shortened tenders being the most noticeable change.  All have added weight and simplified wiring and three of them have been trouble free, despite also being used on those heavy coal trains.  All of the road engines mentioned run well with one another, regardless of make or model.
The fourth Consolidation was also trouble-free, but one day, while running a train on a distant part of the layout, I thought I heard something else running besides the loco which I was using.  I took a quick look around the layout, but saw nothing out of place, so continued with my switching chores.  Once finished, I re-coupled the loco to its train and headed for the next town.  Shortly after getting underway, I heard the sound of something hitting the concrete floor of the layout room.   Somebody   had left the power-routing turnout controlling the staging track for the coal train lined the wrong way.  As long as I was shuffling cars on the other side of the room, the coal train merely moved back and forth for a short distance.  However, when my train left town, the coal train continued moving, towards the lift-out at the room's entrance, which wasn't in-place.   In the photo below, the doubleheaded coal train is on the lowest level, and partially-hidden by the post:

The lead loco, #26, plunged over the edge, dropping about 3' to the floor.  When I arrived at the wreck scene, the second loco was tipped partially over the edge, unable to pull the heavy train with only one set of drivers contacting the rails.  Luckily, the tender drawbar was still engage (the front of the tender was lifted well above the tracks) and the weight of the trailing train prevented the second loco from falling:

After cleaning up the loose coal from the tender, a quick inspection showed minimal damage, with the drawbar pin on the tender snapped off and some wires pulled from the plug connectors (these locos hadn't yet been changed to the simpler plugs).  Other than a broken front coupler, there appeared to be no damage to the loco.  After making the necessary repairs, the loco ran fine, and continued to do so for several years.  Shop crews nicknamed her "the Lucky 26" 

One day, while using it with a sister loco, the train stalled on one of those 2.5% grades, and it was discovered that the drivers of one loco weren't moving at all.

Upon disassembly, I found that the plastic boss under the floor of the cab, into which a screw through the rear of the frame was tightened, had broke off.  It took a minute to register, then I looked at the loco's number.  Aha!  Damage from the big wreck!  Over time, the loco's superstructure (boiler, cab, boiler weight, motor, and worm) no longer secured at the rear, had been bouncing imperceptibly as the loco ran, with contact between the worm and the axle gear intermittent.  Because these locos usually ran doubleheaded, I hadn't noticed any change in the running qualities, but a close inspection of the disabled loco revealed a well-worn gear on the axle.  A replacement from NWSL cured that, and with the broken boss cemented in place, the loco re-entered service.

In my experience, these newer locos generally ran well right out of the box, and most of the problems encountered were minor.  Changes which I made to improve their pulling power weren't minor, though, but I did enjoy the challenge, and it made subsequent such improvements relatively routine.  Other than the Proto switcher, I didn't find the added-on detail to be all that fragile, and the ones which I did change were by choice, not necessity.  My operational faux pas notwithstanding, I've found them to be generally trouble free, and that includes, after the initial issues were resolved, the Bachmann Mountain.  
Once I get the rest of my locos into service, I doubt that I'll need any additional ones, but who knows what might come along to tempt me. 

Wayne

[Texas Zepher]

Speaking of which.  Has anyone used one of the new Bachmann 2-6-0 locos?

[Geared Steam]

Texas Zepher

Speaking of which.  Has anyone used one of the new Bachmann 2-6-0 locos?

Yes, picked one up last July, (Sound value Alco 2-6-0 I assume?). it runs and operates very nicely once broke in. I paid $113.00 for it an an LHS in Southern California. I asked to see it run first for piece of mind. 

I wouldn't hesitate to get another one (if needed) or recommend this model.  

[Pruitt]

Several folks acknowledged that their trackwork is why they can't get steam to stay on the rails, so they don't run it.

Folks, track is the most basic element of a model railroad. If it's only so-so,everything else on your layout may be a craftsman's dream, but overall your layout will never be better than so-so.

A few layouts (and too many years) ago I had derailment problems out the wazoo. One day I got fed up with rerailing things constantly, and made a promise to myself to never again consider mediocre trackwork to be "good enough." I started over on a new layout, and was pleasantly surprised to find that laying track that worked was not all that hard! For a couple of weeks I had to remind myself to be diligent in laying and checking track and turnouts, but very quickly that became second nature. The result is that derailments are rare in my model world, and steam shows no more propensity to leave the rails than my non-steam equipment.

IF I CAN DO IT, IT CAN'T BE THAT HARD.

If laying good track is difficult, go after it! Work on it and make trackwork one your basic, best modeling skills. Take it from someone who knows - laying good track can become easy to do, and it pays huge dividends in terms of increased enjoyment when the trains are runnign and yiou don't have to stop to rerail something every few minutes.

Sorry - didn't mean to change the subject.

["JaBear"]

NP2626

"JaBear"

With the apparent reliability of modern HO steamers I'm half tempted to backdate my fleet to an all steam roster, except I like Baldwin Sharknoses too much, so guess I'll stick to the "transition era." 

Cheers, the Bear.

We've already gone down the road arguing about the quality and reliability of modern steam equipment.  I have no doubt those of you who believe that modern steam offerings are better, have your valid reasons for believing so.  My opinion, based on my years in the hobby and my mechanical abilities is different; but, just as valid.  Some of you claim to never have problems with anything, maybe thinking that espousing this position makes you look superior to all of the rest of us and for me at least, leaves me with the opinion that your opinions are really not worth reading.

You,Sir, started an interesting post which has had a good response of varying but generally considered opinions, though I must admit while my offering was perhaps a little trite, I really am at a loss how it  brought about this rant!  I only hope that gun collecting is not one of your hobbies as I would be concerned that you'd probably shoot yourself in the foot.

Yours humbly, the Bear.

[BRAKIE]

Brunton

Folks, track is the most basic element of a model railroad. If it's only so-so,everything else on your layout may be a craftsman's dream, but overall your layout will never be better than so-so.

Mark,If I may and I'm certainly not advocating bad track laying habits since good track work means derailment free operation..

Where diesels shine is they're far more forgiving then steam will ever be when it comes to less then stellar track work simple because a diesel truck can "float" unlike a steam engines' drivers.

[richhotrain]

BRAKIE

Brunton

Folks, track is the most basic element of a model railroad. If it's only so-so,everything else on your layout may be a craftsman's dream, but overall your layout will never be better than so-so.

Mark,If I may and I'm certainly not advocating bad track laying habits since good track work means derailment free operation..

Where diesels shine is they're far more forgiving then steam will ever be when it comes to less then stellar track work simple because a diesel truck can "float" unlike a steam engines' drivers.

I agree with Brunton, and I agree with Brakie.

Brunton, there is no doubt that you are correct.  Make your track work bullet proof, and by that I mean 100 percent flawless, and your steamers will probably not derail. 

Brakie is also correct in that diesels are far more forgiving than steam when running over faulty track work.

After 10 years in the hobby and plenty of time and effort in laying track,  I am still not skilled enough to lay "bullet proof" track work.

So, I prefer diesels over steam, and if I had it to do over, I would not include steam on my layout.  Just not worth it.

Rich

[mobilman44]

METHINKS this thread is degenerating rapidly...........

Just a glance at the title tells us that it is a pathway to another endless "discussion".  

Does anyone out there really care if someone else prefers steamers or diesels over the other? 

 

[richhotrain]

mobilman44

METHINKS this thread is degenerating rapidly...........

Just a glance at the title tells us that it is a pathway to another endless "discussion".  

Does anyone out there really care if someone else prefers steamers or diesels over the other? 

 

METHINKS you are contributing to the degeneration of this thread, oilman.  

Rich

[jacon12]

Let's just say that this discussion is lively, as it should be.  There are few conversations where everyone agrees.  The ones in which that does happen are pretty boring.  

Speaking of track work and making it 'bullet proof'....., I've been around a few layouts, mine included.. and I've noticed that no matter how great the track work, given the nature of turnouts, roadbed, substructures, heat and humidity, glue failure et all, even the best laid plans of mice and men,... er uh model railroaders, it seems that it doesn't stay bullet proof forever and amen.

I know there are places on my layout that I just KNEW were first class A OK smooth as silk.  Years later I'm looking at the track with a magnifying glass, running my finger over a rail joint wondering "what the heck is going on here"   Thing is, if your layout is big enough and you have track on enough curves, hard to reach places, going up inclines... not to mention turnouts, cutting rail to install bridge track, the odds are you're going to have a problem now and then.

Some modelers seem to have this unreasonable dislike for diesels of any sort and get pretty argumentative about it.  I'd personally like to see more young people get into the hobby if nothing else than to help keep prices down and competition among mfgs up.  These less-than-thirty somethings didn't grow up around steam engines.  The only ones they're familiar with are in museums and the movies.  Throw in an occasional visit to a places that actually has and runs them.  Railroading, to them, IS SD 70's and the like.  They model what they see every day and what they grew up with.  Granted, I believe the majority of those that profess to not liking diesels are doing it good naturedly and may even have 2 or 3 running around on their 1940s themed layout...  

Me... I like'em all!  From 4-4-0 steamers to the big modern equipment..

Oh yes.... the model railroad industry just LOVES guys like me!

 

 

 

 

 

[BRAKIE]

jacon12

I've been around a few layouts, mine included.. and I've noticed that no matter how great the track work, given the nature of turnouts, roadbed, substructures, heat and humidity, glue failure et all, even the best laid plans of mice and men,... er uh model railroaders, it seems that it doesn't stay bullet proof forever and amen.

With respect I gotta totally disagree with that..I can run my trains for hours  during the open houses and the week of the county fair with zero derailments and the club's layouts sit in a unheated block building 6 days a week in Ohio's grab bag weather..There is more remodeling then track maintenance..

Now all of my past ISLs was derailment free but,these was in a controlled environment.

[Geared Steam]

mobilman44

Does anyone out there really care if someone else prefers steamers or diesels over the other? 

Nope. 

[richhotrain]

Geared Steam

mobilman44

Does anyone out there really care if someone else prefers steamers or diesels over the other? 

Nope. 

[Burlington Northern #24]

track laying,far from my best MRRing skill . It's going to take a while for me to get my track perfect but this time around I will have power wires so I can test it before I glue it down.