I've been involved in this hobby a long time. I've also been involved in manufacturing a long time and owned my own manufacturing (Stampings) company. Since early 2006 until the beginning of this year, I was the Gage Tech. for a machining company where I calibrated gaging in the plant, purchased new gaging and repaired gaging needing repair. Being a part of the quality department kept me abreast of the quality spills that occured in the company. Manufacturing is capable of fantastic things, tight tolerences and fantastic speed, that has never been better! So, what gives?
I've said the above to explain that I do know something about quality.
Previous to the present, back when locomotive kits were still available, I built many Athearn, MDC Roundhouse, Bowser and Mantua kits. The quality of these "kit" locomotives far exceeds the quality of the RTR locomotives available today! Many of these locomotives I sold on Ebay, when I decided I was going to model the Northern Pacific. I have no way of knowing if they still run today; but, because what I still own of these locomotives do still run, I have a sneaking hunch they are still in use.
What is available today, are locomotives with excellent detail; but, with inferior drive systems; or, mechanical capabilities. They fall flat on their faces with simple problems like split gears on the drive wheels, bearing hole diameters that have to much slop, the drive system fails to stay connected; or, derail at every small hiccup in the track work. Some of these problems have occurred with equipment that was essentially just broken in, and used very little after, so as far as use is concerned, are for all practical purposes brand new!!!
My overall impression of the quality of what is available today is pretty low! Not only is the quality low; but, the products are run in small batches; or, discontinued, making parts difficult to find and suspect, because your probably replacing the bad part with the same parts that are prone to fail again.
I'm not going to mention the manufacturers that are producing these inferior products. I will say that Stewart and Atlas locomotives seem to hold together. The rest of them, the engineering departments need to spend some time with an eye towards improving mechanical quality.
Then, I have my lowly Varney "Little Joe" Docksider 0-4-0, that I have owned since 1960 and was purchased from a neighbor kid who likely bought it sometime in the late 1940s to early 1950s, that just keeps running down the track!
NP 2626 "Northern Pacific, really terrific"
Northern Pacific Railway Historical Association: http://www.nprha.org/
One word.... CHINA.
Michael
CEO- Mile-HI-RailroadPrototype: D&RGW Moffat Line 1989
Agree with you on Atlas and would like to add Kato. I won't buy Athearn at this point. As for the others, Bachmann is the only other brand I have purchased previously and I actually found the engine to be an OK runner for the money paid. If you're a rivet counter, then they probably are not your thing. I have not really tried any others and can't speak to them.
I have to agree. Many RTR locos I've bought have had bad motors, flaky wiring, loose gears, electronics that are good for starting fires, loose bearings, etc. Great detail, great to look at but bad runners because of sloppy shoddy work. The old locos I have including the ones I built from bits and pieces don't look as good but they run far better.
I stopped buying Athearn RTR locos. They look great but I've rarely gotten one that runs well. The new Bachmann locos, while they don't look as great run quite well. I've got quite a few of them. I also like the Atlas locos. I have two newer ones (1998 to 2005) and a number of older ones (70's - 80's) and I'm looking to pick up another one soon.
Dr. Frankendiesel aka Scott Running BearSpace Mouse for president!15 year veteran fire fighterCollector of Apple //e'sRunning Bear EnterprisesHistory Channel Club life member.beatus homo qui invenit sapientiam
My favorites is Athearn BB, RTR,the older LL P2K and of course Atlas in the red,yellow and black boxes.
However..
Some times I wonder what the hay are they thinking?
I've had new locomotives with crack gear(s) headlights that burnt out in less then 15 minutes,1 DOA but,I found and fixed the problem..
I had one Atlas SD35 had a thumping noise in the front truck and upon investigation I found bits of Chinese noddles or fried rice.
Some locomotives had to be cleaned and service because of the excessive oil and tons of grease in the gear boxes.
Needless to say my 30-40 year old BB engines still chugs along with little maintenance as does my older Atlas/Rocco and Atlas/Kato.
I just hope my supped up RTR locomotives last 30-40 years-of course I won't be around but,maybe my Grandson can still use 'em.
Speaking of older locomotives I seen old Hobbytown RS3s still in operation.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Discussing the quality of a product usually is a border line issue, but let´s give it a try.
I agree with the OP, that the quality of locos seems to have been better in the good old days. I have an old Marklin DB class E94 electric, which has been resting in its box for over 20 years. Just a few days I took it out of the box, set it on a length of track and it just ran beautifully - just like a Swiss watch. It´s a rugged design, has a metal body which seems to be indestructible and a paint job that will outlast me. The loco was introduced into the market in the early 1960´s has has been produced unchanged for about 30 years. Aside from the window glazing and the wiring, there is no plastic part in it, which could be subject to degrading.
Would you agree that this is quality? I think it is.
Looking at the detail on the loco, it may be a different story. Recent (plastic) models of this prototype offer a lot more detail, but are a lot more fragile. I doubt that any of the recent model will stand up as my old Marklin loco does. But I also doubt that you´d be able to market a loco with a level of detail my old Marklin beast today at the same cost in terms of working hours as you could then.
Modern production technologies and materials allow for much better products than 30 to 40 years ago, but there is a price tag to it. Locos have to be designed to cost to meet the market´s idea on pricing. We have to accept the fact, that there is a trade off between quality and price. Better quality - yes, but are we prepared to pay for it?
Well, I would bet my RR that this thread will be locked, sooner of later. But, I'll get my 3 cents in beforehand.
I've been in HO since 1960. For the money, the Athearn BB locos and cars could not be beat. I honestly don't recall ever having a quality problem with an Athearn BB Loco, and I had a good 50 or so of them over the years.
My favorite diesels quality wise are Stewart/Bowser and Atlas/Kato. I've had good luck with P2Ks (after gear/axle problems were addressed). BLI diesels are great - but its a hit or miss proposition in my experience.
For steamers, well that's a difficult proposition - just by their very nature. The Spectrums are OK, and you get what you pay for. But they are certainly not top of the line performance wise. The BLIs again are "hit or miss". That being said, I really do like them.
While I don't own any, I am reluctant to buy today's Athearn or MTH. Of course my reluctance is based upon my readings, so I could very well be missing out on some good ones.
ENJOY !
Mobilman44
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
The problem is not just model trains, it's all products that are out sourced overseas.
The importer has to do quality inspection and reject products that are not right.
The problem with China and other places is that they lack experience and expertise. Sure they're cheap, but they are learning on our dime. Historically, cheap overseas production went first to Japan, later Korea and Taiwan, now it goes to China and lately Vietnam and others. Each time the country starts out with low prices and quality issues. Over time the workforce becomes educated, manufacturing expertise develops, quality rises, but so do prices. Many companies move to the next cheap place. Meanwhile these countries use their new knowledge and experience to develop their own companies which in many cases have a reputation for quality goods. And they now compete in the world market.
Many model railroad products for over 20 years now have followed the move to cheaper places strategy. But this requires more diligence on their part and a willingness to not accept shoddy work - some do, some don't. Some don't care as long as it is cheap.
Since no one does a Consumer Reports type test of model railroad products, all we have is word of mouth and personal experience.
Paul
mobilman44For the money, the Athearn BB locos and cars could not be beat. I honestly don't recall ever having a quality problem with an Athearn BB Loco, and I had a good 50 or so of them over the years.
Thanks for reminding me of the only problem I ever had with any of my BB engines over the years.
I took a GP7 out of the box to give it a test run-DOA.
I removed the shell and found the metal contact strip was not in place on one end..I put the strip in its place and that old GP7 is still running 33 years later.
I recently got back in model railroading i have a athearn RTR gp 38 the drive train in it isnt robust as the old BB i think the Bachmann deisels have improved i bought a intermountain FP 9 i like it my only complaint it is way to slow i have several atlas deisels LOVE EM they are top notch i also bought some old reliable athearn BB was thinking of converting the gp 38 to the old BB drive train i do feel the qaulity has suffered while prices have risen
keithh9824 I recently got back in model railroading i have a athearn RTR gp 38 the drive train in it isnt robust as the old BB i think the Bachmann deisels have improved i bought a intermountain FP 9 i like it my only complaint it is way to slow i have several atlas deisels LOVE EM they are top notch i also bought some old reliable athearn BB was thinking of converting the gp 38 to the old BB drive train i do feel the qaulity has suffered while prices have risen
A interesting thought..
The RTR Athearn GP38-2s(with the souped up shell) I have has the older BB type motor and are fairly smooth runners.
Did they change motors in the recent runs of the RTR GP38-2?
BTW.My RTR Athearn GP40-2s have the BB clone drive with a souped up shell and are fairly smooth runners.
Motors are the same they changed the drive train to this very flimsy it is a piece of plastic with a unioun on top of the truck very flimsy i have extra parts from older drive train so i think i can change it have to change the flywheels too
I still have my old Mantua Pacific that I built from a kit in the late 1950's and it is as smooth a running loco as any new ones I have (and I have at least 50 locos of all manufacturers). The all metal locos were solid, heavy (of course) and stayed together. I do like the new Spectrum and P2K locos though.
-Bob
Life is what happens while you are making other plans!
Since comments come up every few months were people sit back and say they won't buy Athearn, I'll just say what I say every few months back. You are lucky you don't model D&RGW or SP because Athearn is the only supplier of tunnel motors in HO - end of story.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
Motley One word.... CHINA.
andrechapelon Motley One word.... CHINA. What's your point? 50 years ago it was JAPAN. 30 years ago, it was KOREA. Now it's CHINA. 20 years from now, it'll be Bangladesh, Vietnam, Burma.... <fill in the blank here>. Everybody wants Tiffany quality, but wants to pay Wal-Mart prices. The two are incompatible. Andre
I don't know about quality drives now vs. then. I think assembly has more to do with it. If the engineering and materials are sound and defensible as decisions, then it leaves execution. Somewhere along the production process we are getting too many plugs to instill confidence in some of the suppliers. I was very worried for BLI between 2008 and early last year. Suddenly, they are promising a sped-up delivery schedule and are offering many new locomotives/re-issues in the next six months. Their quality issues seem to have returned to just a minor irritation these days.
However, the manufacturers have responded in two areas. The numbers of offerings has gone up generally, and the detailing has rivalled brass since about 2005. Prices have risen somewhat steeply, but the general supply and eye-appeal have gone up. These details are not laser etched or mounted by robots whose costs are amortizable over 10 years. They are mounted by itinerant girls, mostly, who flee agricultural or procreative work (they no longer want to be breeding vessels or human horses and tractors in their parents' fields). They are supplied by agencies that 'hook' them and supply them by the bus-load for the burgeoning factories.
One comment earlier, perhaps the OP's, mentioned derailing. If your Blue Box locos didn't derail, they probably had flanges in early days that are not commonly found on today's more prototypical locomotives. I may be wrong because I have no experience with the BB locomotives.
I have locomotives, both diesel and steam, from at least six different manufacturers, European and Chinese, but also Korean. My only return-to-sender has been a Bachmann Spectrum J Class 4-8-4, and I see the various sellers and re-sellers have begun to unload the entire line for the dud they are known to be. I believe that was a Korean model, but I could stand to be corrected.
I have two more costly BLI brass hybrid steamers, a UP 2-10-2 and the Pennsy Q2 4-4-6-4. I would gladly pay what BLI wants for them, and for future similar quality products, because they are exquisite. They are about 30% less costly than the all-brass Sunset CPR 2-10-4 I own, and at least as well detailed. Both run like champs.
I believe this discussion always boils down to the 'us vs. them' debate between those who enjoy tinkering and detailing/super-detailing the same way they enjoy scratching or kit-bashing and those who have no such inclination...they want RTR and will pay for something that looks good and runs well. Some of us have lamented that our more costly RTR stuff had to go back once or twice before we got them as solid runners. That certainly isn't cool. I have no way of knowing how representative they are, or were, of the greater production lines of those locomotives. I think BLI eventually shut down its site's forum because there was so much carping (and I don't suggest for a minute that it was undeserved).
Crandell
keithh9824 Motors are the same they changed the drive train to this very flimsy it is a piece of plastic with a unioun on top of the truck very flimsy i have extra parts from older drive train so i think i can change it have to change the flywheels too
Ahh,the spline drive.Yes..My RTR GP60s,SD38s,SD40s and SW1500s have those drives and there are quiet and mine are smooth runners as well.
Thanks for clarifying the motor type.
It all comes down to who puts it together. Lets just take one engine that I have personal knowledge of at all phases. This engine is an MDC shay. The one I built runs at a tie a minute so we can see the design is not bad from the get go. I have others built by others that run well too. I have a RTR one that came DOA and though we put some work into it, it still runs like (fill in the word). Now we all know that means I will have to take it completely apart to see what they did wrong (almost easier to start from the get go building one). As far as the RTR's lets take a Spectrum 2-6-0 I own, one I used as a tester for my layout build, everything perfect and my layout and the engine passed the test. I bought two others, identical, now luckily they both ran perfectly but would derail at a lot of turns. I went over the one that passed with a fine tooth comb and the only thing I could find different was the wiring harness was longer. Stuffed the excess back up into the engine on the bad one and now it passes all tests. The reason it got longer was the back plate in the cab was loose allowing the wires to move to the wrong position (haven't fixed that so it doesn't happen again. My point, it is usually not the design but who puts it together. Back when I was younger, we would go to the local hobby shop and test the engines first before we bought and left mistakes up to the local hobby shop to fix. Unfortunately we need to become are own mechanics these days!
That certainly isn't cool. I have no way of knowing how representative they are, or were, of the greater production lines of those locomotives.
Generally things are skewed towards the complainers in terms of numbers because they're the ones who are vocal. Those who are satisfied normally don't say anything. You can find sites for almost any company/product on the Internet that is essentiallly <insert name here>sucks.com.
Try Googling "walmart sucks" and see how many hits you get. Somewhere out there is probably a site for people to complain about prices at the Dollar Tree.
Andre
I have noticed a few times in the past 10 years or so some product reviews that have not been very forthcoming and somewhat biased toward certain distributors (not manufacturers since they only sell the product).
Dennis Blank Jr.
CEO,COO,CFO,CMO,Bossman,Slavedriver,Engineer,Trackforeman,Grunt. Birdsboro & Reading Railroad
RRebell said: It all comes down to who puts it together.
I think, there is more to it.
For a good meal, you need the right recipe (engineering), the right ingredients (choice of materials) and a good chef to put it all together in the right manner.
I've only bought 1 Kato, 3 Atlas and 2 Proto locomotives. All are perfect running locomotives and I can't see the quality getting any better then what it is now on these locomotives. The only bad ones I've heard about are ones I've heard about here.
all of my locos look and run great, my con cors may be slightly noisy but they work. My katos and Atlas locos are tanks my SD40 can handle a 20 car train on it's own, my SD70Mac and AC4400CW can both pull 40 car trains with ease on their own. My atlas GP15-1, GP9, and RS1 can take on 20 even 30 car trains. my Bachmann northern can handle a hefty 6 car heavy weight train, my Lt. Mountain can handle a 20-30 car train.
As for detail on the top are my Kato's, Altas, and Bachmann Lt. Mtn Spectrum are the best. when comes to decently detailed my northern and I hate having to say this but my con cors are decent.
SP&S modeler, 1960's give or take a decade or two for some equipment.
http://www.youtube.com/user/SGTDUPREY?feature=guide
Gary DuPrey
N scale model railroader
NP2626Manufacturing is capable of fantastic things, tight tolerances and fantastic speed, that has never been better! So, what gives?
We are talking about toys and a hobby, the bean counters know what the breaking point is, and we demand affordability in our models.
NP2626 I built many Athearn, MDC Roundhouse, Bowser and Mantua kits. The quality of these "kit" locomotives far exceeds the quality of the RTR locomotives available today
You apparently have never built an MDC Shay, Climax or Boxcab kit.
Locos today, for the price we pay, are better than ever, in detail, running characteristics, everything.
No concerns here, most of my locos have a lifetime warranty, that is what it is for.
If you get a problem, return the problem.
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge but imagination."-Albert Einstein
http://gearedsteam.blogspot.com/
I will take the todays rolling stock and locomotives anyday over the stuff i had years ago.
Russell
csxns I will take the todays rolling stock and locomotives anyday over the stuff i had years ago.
I dunno about that since I haven't seen any of today's RS3s that could match the brute force of the Hobbytown RS3.
No RS3s,i scraped them long a go,Modern all the way.
BRAKIEI dunno about that since I haven't seen any of today's RS3s that could match the brute force of the Hobbytown RS3.
BRAKIE csxns I will take the todays rolling stock and locomotives anyday over the stuff i had years ago. I dunno about that since I haven't seen any of today's RS3s that could match the brute force of the Hobbytown RS3.
Very true words Larry! Out of all 7 diesels I own, 4 have Hobbytown chassis's under them. When I can't get any more parts for them, not that I've ever had the need, then I'll just be down to 3 diesels. But I still have my steamers, all 30 of them, with 1/2 being brass. Of those the newest, is from 1974. They all run like Swiss watches.
Carey
Keep it between the Rails
Alabama Central Homepage
Nara member #128
NMRA &SER Life member