Train Modeler This is one reason I am moving to more brass, less plastic. The difference isn't the percentage it used to be. Brass also holds its' value better Richard
This is one reason I am moving to more brass, less plastic. The difference isn't the percentage it used to be. Brass also holds its' value better
Richard
Yes, brass does hold its value. However, as one who personally spent (or lost) a good 15k buying and trading brass models that weren't necessarily all they were cracked up to be, I learned a lot of lessons about what not to buy. If one does not buy smart, one can lose or never make much money.
Again, I didn't buy trains to make money, I bought what I wanted that I thought would make me happy. Not all the brass is good or will appreciate. The "cheap" models now will likely always be cheap, and there's also no substitute for a real quality piece especially if it's rare.
John
TA462 If people are looking for some mud slinging I could revert back to my old self from a few years ago. I was kind of the instigator in a lot of topics getting kind of dirty. Let me know...............
If people are looking for some mud slinging I could revert back to my old self from a few years ago. I was kind of the instigator in a lot of topics getting kind of dirty. Let me know...............
Dunno, I like the new TA462, sweet, kind, loving, gentle..................................
Oh heck, let's hear from the old TA462.
Alton Junction
This oughta be good.....
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
IronRooster: I have only read up to your comment on the first page of this thread but you have hit on a point that I have not seen before.
IRONROOSTERThis is hobby mostly enjoyed by folks in the middle class. In the last decade the middle class has experienced a decline in numbers and income. With that a decline, middle class activities/spending has also occurred
You are absoluty on to a very important observation. The income of the middle class has decreased, So it stands to reason that expendable income has decreased too, hense people are spending less on things other than food and shelter,
Bob
Photobucket Albums:NPBL - 2008 The BeginningNPBL - 2009 Phase INPBL - 2010 Downtown
UP 4-12-2 Train Modeler This is one reason I am moving to more brass, less plastic. The difference isn't the percentage it used to be. Brass also holds its' value better Richard Yes, brass does hold its value. However, as one who personally spent (or lost) a good 15k buying and trading brass models that weren't necessarily all they were cracked up to be, I learned a lot of lessons about what not to buy. If one does not buy smart, one can lose or never make much money. Again, I didn't buy trains to make money, I bought what I wanted that I thought would make me happy. Not all the brass is good or will appreciate. The "cheap" models now will likely always be cheap, and there's also no substitute for a real quality piece especially if it's rare. John
John,
Thanks for the heads up. I have Tenshodo and OMI. Any brands I should avoid? Any preferred sources?
Train ModelerJohn, Thanks for the heads up. I have Tenshodo and OMI. Any brands I should avoid? Any preferred sources? Richard
Richard--
There is no simple answer to that question. It's more a case of which specific models or years of models to avoid because they don't run well--and then if you want real "accuracy" and very "correct" models, there are still even more models to avoid.
Armand Mazzetti and Mark Matto at The Caboose are as honest and reputable as anyone in the activity when it comes to where to buy.
Tenshodo models generally have great paint jobs--though it is thick--and while basically the best of their era, generally speaking (with perhaps a few exceptions) they are not up to today's levels of detail or accuracy.
Here's some I would not buy again:
Do you want a correct Rio Grande L-131 or L-132 2-8-8-2? Then don't buy any of the PFM ones--not even the "crowns" and not even the last run from 1981. They are all incorrect. Piping on one side of the boiler is close to correct for an L-131; other side is close to L-132. If you want correct, spend the $3000 plus for the 1986 built W&R/Samhongsa version which has stainless steel valve gear and driver tires--they can run forever.
Do you want a correct Rio Grande M-75 4-8-2? Don't buy the PFM Crown--plus it's boiler was enlarged 10% to make it appear more impressive (actually some other Crowns also have the exaggerated boiler size but I don't know the full list).
Avoid OMI diesels made prior to about 1988 when they switched over to the tower gear drive--which is an outstanding mechanism. Why avoid the prior versions? They have drive trains through the fuel tank, which do not hold up very well, gears that will fail, and many of them can be very noisy to boot. The earlier versions can be modernized to tower gear drive (a friend has done several) but you have to be intimately familiar with all the parts involved, so you can get the right parts you need from OMI--and it takes time to do the conversions. At least in the past, OMI would help some customers out with all the parts needed to do the full conversions.
Avoid Oriental Limited diesels with the nylon gears--they crack and have to be replaced. Some folks mix nylon and metal to quiet the noisy beasts down--which works for awhile until the nylon gears crack and have to be replaced.
Generally speaking avoid Samhongsa produced steam power prior to about 1980. It re-kits itself while test running on one's layout--especially the Rio Grande M-64 4-8-4's! By about 1982 Samhongsa was producing really fine models--accurate that ran well--but some of them still had poor soldering that still can result in running boards coming loose from otherwise beautiful factory painted models...difficult to fix neatly without professional paint work.
New Jersey International Custom Brass earned the nickname "custom trash" for a reason: Many of the articulateds look great--have lots of details on them (whether accurate on steam or not is another matter entirely but they look good)--however, the gears suck and require total replacement. (W&R had offered excellent Samhongsa built articulated gearbox sets with delayed motion so the one set of drivers slips and starts moving before the other set ever starts moving. But good luck finding them today.)
Hallmark steam of the '70's looked good but didn't generally run very well and needs work to run.
Precision Scale did a number of generally similar articulateds during the '80's (WP, D&H, WM Challengers) that are not the most accurate models (tenders are wrong for most) and have severe electrical issues such that they don't run very well.
With limited exceptions, I generally wouldn't buy anything from Sunset--they were inexpensive for many years and didn't run well at all.
My 2c.
What would I buy?
Some Westside engines have great gearboxes, are well detailed, and may just need a can motor to be updated to run as well as anything else.
Overland Reading 4-6-2's factory painted, among the best looking and running brass steamers I ever had or saw. They also did some flashy paint schemes on other Anthracite Road 4-6-2's at the same time including the flashy CNJ paint schemes and the B&M Minuteman, LV, etc. They should all be fine models--they just made a lot so they lingered in dealer inventory for awhile--at least the Readings are still fairly common.
In general, the late Challenger Imports/Samhongsa steam is well worth the money and should run very well. This includes the C&O President Class engines, on up to the end. I think the PRR 2-10-2's were also good.
The 1990's Hallmark/Samhongsa Super Crown steam series is well worth the money. They have coasting drives--very smooth--you can push them on a table and they roll exceptionally well. Very well detailed engines.
The late Key/Samhongsa steamers can also be fantastic, as well as anything made by W&R.
The post-Samhongsa era Korean builders--I have zero experience with--was out of brass entirely by then.
Beware A-B-B-A sets of Challenger/Samhongsa F units--some don't even couple together correctly or would require a huge radius due to very limited clearance between units. I sold a WP A-B-B set in disgust at a significant loss because I couldn't even couple them together to run them.
I think we need to get out while there is still time,sell it all and start a mushroom farm in the basement where the layout was.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL And just for the fun of it, I will add what I always say when these threads come up. Adjusted for inflation, this hobby is NO MORE EXPENSIVE than it ever was. When Athearn box cars were $2 rather than $20, gas was 35 cents, cars were $3000, houses were $40,000 and $10,000 a year was a good wage. Just because high taxes or a weak economy have erroded some peoples purchasing power does not change the value of other things relative to what people earn. And, today in model trains, not all the "brass" is made out of brass - but models of a particular detail level have always been in a higher price class - and so they still are - and there are more of them to choose from. I had no problem "entering" the hobby at age 12 in 1969 making $1 an hour, I'm sure if they want to today's young people will find a way. Sheldon
And just for the fun of it, I will add what I always say when these threads come up.
Adjusted for inflation, this hobby is NO MORE EXPENSIVE than it ever was. When Athearn box cars were $2 rather than $20, gas was 35 cents, cars were $3000, houses were $40,000 and $10,000 a year was a good wage.
Just because high taxes or a weak economy have erroded some peoples purchasing power does not change the value of other things relative to what people earn.
And, today in model trains, not all the "brass" is made out of brass - but models of a particular detail level have always been in a higher price class - and so they still are - and there are more of them to choose from.
I had no problem "entering" the hobby at age 12 in 1969 making $1 an hour, I'm sure if they want to today's young people will find a way.
Sheldon
Very well said Sheldon! I remember when I was 11/12 entering the hobby making $10/week (allowance). It was something i WANTED to do so I did it. I acquired things more slowly than I would h
The hobby seemed expensive to me at the time because I could literally only buy a few sections of track (flex track was out of the question, lol) at a time and if I was lucky, a passenger car (or what limited Amtrak/commuter stuff there was to choose from at the time).
My income has risen to be more in line with my equipment acquisition ambitions which I am thankful for. It hasn't quite gone beyond that where I could invest heavily into an appropriate space in which to accommodate my dream layout but I hope it will someday.
~Kyle
The Mary Lindsay Railroad - Featuring Amtrak Model Trains Your HO Rail Journey Starts Here.........
www.marylindsayrr.vze.com (Last Update: 5/31/12)
BRAKIE NP 2626,First I am a moderator on three forums and I'm yet to see real mud slinging.I do see difference of opinion. Yes,the sky is not falling it never was.What did take place is the hobby as we knew revolved in to superior models,superior controls and to a degree superior modelers..Some tries to remain in the "Blue Box" era when others gladly moved on with the hobby. Like it or hate its here to stay since the majority of the modelers has voted with their wallets. However.. There are alternative and cheaper ways to enjoy the hobby that still requires old fashion modeling. Sadly there are those that overlook those alternatives in their hand wringing doom and gloom prophecy.
NP 2626,First I am a moderator on three forums and I'm yet to see real mud slinging.I do see difference of opinion.
Yes,the sky is not falling it never was.What did take place is the hobby as we knew revolved in to superior models,superior controls and to a degree superior modelers..Some tries to remain in the "Blue Box" era when others gladly moved on with the hobby.
Like it or hate its here to stay since the majority of the modelers has voted with their wallets.
However..
There are alternative and cheaper ways to enjoy the hobby that still requires old fashion modeling.
Sadly there are those that overlook those alternatives in their hand wringing doom and gloom prophecy.
"Doom & Gloom prophecy", where did this gross exageration come from! My interest in this hobby is model building and your telling me that the actual building of models is being supplanted by RTR because "the majority of the modelers has voted with their wallets!" So, I guess the reality is that we agree on this fact!
I want to promote model building! That you and the few others that always say things like: "OMG, The Sky is falling", somehow manage to get these types of threads closed! There is another FACT for you!
I just don't get it! If your not interested in building models, or the condition of the inventory that is available out there, why all the passive/agressive comment? Find something you are interested in and promote that!
Of course I realize this is a complete waste of my time and only adding fuel to the fire, because that's the nature of Forums in this world!
NP 2626 "Northern Pacific, really terrific"
Northern Pacific Railway Historical Association: http://www.nprha.org/
NP2626 wrote: "Doom & Gloom prophecy", where did this gross exageration come from! My interest in this hobby is model building and your telling me that the actual building of models is being supplanted by RTR because "the majority of the modelers has voted with their wallets!" So, I guess the reality is that we agree on this fact!
My response: This may still frustrate you but I still do not see why you think that this exchange of opinions is rife with The Sky Is Fallingism. Did you actually read the responses here?
How about the various ideas that came forth about the various aspects of the hobby? Not all of it is/was about RTR. Since my thing is more about scratchbuilding than anything else I usually find all kinds of fodder for making up some of my own structures and such.....
BTW...I guess you missed the great high cost of the hobby debates of a couple of years back when there were actually people who thought just this...
Guys,
Do you realize that the OP - someone with 6 posts - dropped his opening post and then disappeared into the woodwork? He is long gone, leaving us sparring with one another....................
Surely we have better things to do! I know I've got some hard to get to scenicking that needs to get done, so I'm gonna leave this thread and get to it......................
ENJOY !!!!!
ENJOY !
Mobilman44
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
NP2626Doom & Gloom prophecy", where did this gross exageration come from!
From reading discussions like this..There are those doom and gloomers among us that believe RTR is killing kit building and the hobby in general because of the higher price.
So..
The sky isn't falling after all because there are still thousand of kits available.
But,twisting words around seems to be popular on forums.
I'm in the process of building 3 Walthers kits and have a Rix storage tank to build plus two 50' Accurail boxcars to build.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
I don't always agree with Sheldon, but I think he's correct here.
People that want to can and will find a way to pay for it.
I myself am on a more limited budget such that if/when I change my mind and want something, other somethings have to go...I mean no disrespect to all the folks who say they never sell anything, but keep every train item they buy--that's great for them--but for those of us who want to try out the latest thing, whatever it is, that just won't work.
I do, however, very much miss my 46% employee discount that we once received at a train store (they cannot even offer their employees anything near that discount in the present day--because dealer cost has changed quite a bit since then)--lol--and when I did get that 46% discount I was a college student or just starting out such that I really didn't have much money at all, but I still managed to buy some of the better motive power at the time (Oriental Limited Powerhouse Series USRA 2-8-8-2's were not bad at all...)
P.S. I'm "on the wagon" now--anything I buy I keep now, and I'm "retired" from Ebay as a seller--it was really starting to decline for sellers anyway.
NP2626 I want to promote model building! That you and the few others that always say things like: "OMG, The Sky is falling", somehow manage to get these types of threads closed! There is another FACT for you! Of course I realize this is a complete waste of my time and only adding fuel to the fire, because that's the nature of Forums in this world!
I don't see anything objectional in this thread that would warrant locking it.
Rich
UP 4-12-2 I don't always agree with Sheldon, but I think he's correct here. People that want to can and will find a way to pay for it. I myself am on a more limited budget such that if/when I change my mind and want something, other somethings have to go...I mean no disrespect to all the folks who say they never sell anything, but keep every train item they buy--that's great for them--but for those of us who want to try out the latest thing, whatever it is, that just won't work. I do, however, very much miss my 46% employee discount that we once received at a train store (they cannot even offer their employees anything near that discount in the present day--because dealer cost has changed quite a bit since then)--lol--and when I did get that 46% discount I was a college student or just starting out such that I really didn't have much money at all, but I still managed to buy some of the better motive power at the time (Oriental Limited Powerhouse Series USRA 2-8-8-2's were not bad at all...) John P.S. I'm "on the wagon" now--anything I buy I keep now, and I'm "retired" from Ebay as a seller--it was really starting to decline for sellers anyway.
John we have discussed this before and I surely do understand how your situation has been different from mine.
To be clear to everyone,
One thing that should be said about my "habit" of seldom selling off any model equipment is that I have always been a "modeler" and as such much of my equipment is custom painted, lettered to my private road, detailed to my tastes, weathered, modified to suit my needs and wants. This alone makes "resale" less practical - I think the market for locos lettered "ATLANTIC CENTRAL" is pretty small.
I have never "collected", only bought models to suit the goals of predetermined layout themes, a theme now that has been in place for a number of decades.
I too worked in the industry and bought some stuff at generous discounts, but ironicly that was at the time in my life when money was tight.
In the last 15-20 I have enjoyed the low prices relative to my purchasing power, and have accumulated much of what I desire for the layout I am building.
I don't whine about prices, they are what they are. I'm self employed, I don't think the prices I charge my customers are too high - they either want my skills/services or they don't. I feel the same way when I buy model trains - I either want it that much - or I don't.
Call me selfish or self involved, but I give no thought to who else can or cannot afford this hobby - it has NEVER been a hobby for the poor - it matters not if you build or buy RTR.
It costs what it costs - before you expect ANYONE to give you something for less, consider how much of pay cut you are willing to take.
And trust me - no one at any level of the model train business is "getting rich".
Sheldon--
I really hope you do not perceive any hostility from me, because there is none.
In some ways we probably have more in common than you might actually think--I have at various times lettered or intended to letter stuff for a private road, but then for whatever reason I usually cease doing so and revert to prototype roadnames...perhaps I'm too much a prisoner of history...
It's only recently that I could begin to appreciate some of the railroads in my own backyard (as opposed to those glory lines half way across the country with the really flashy paint jobs that usually seem to get most of the press).
In the coming months I'll probably be reading more about all the reasons PC actually failed...
richhotrain NP2626 I want to promote model building! That you and the few others that always say things like: "OMG, The Sky is falling", somehow manage to get these types of threads closed! There is another FACT for you! Of course I realize this is a complete waste of my time and only adding fuel to the fire, because that's the nature of Forums in this world! I don't see anything objectional in this thread that would warrant locking it. Rich
Nor do I! Yet, these types of threads have been shut down !
NP2626 richhotrain NP2626 I want to promote model building! That you and the few others that always say things like: "OMG, The Sky is falling", somehow manage to get these types of threads closed! There is another FACT for you! Of course I realize this is a complete waste of my time and only adding fuel to the fire, because that's the nature of Forums in this world! I don't see anything objectional in this thread that would warrant locking it. Rich Nor do I! Yet, these types of threads have been shut down !
Only because a lot of the time people went around getting into flaming other people.
I've actually seen innocuous threads getting locked because people misunderstood each other and began flaming sessions.
Actually, one such scratchbuild I'm up to lately is my little service center for Sim's Jtn...plus a couple more weighscales....
"Only because a lot of the time people went around getting into flaming other people".
And, therein lays the problem!
NP2626 "Only because a lot of the time people went around getting into flaming other people". And, therein lays the problem!
I don't see any real flaming..I do see disagreements and that will happen with topics like this which BTW borders on Kits vs.RTR topics of old..You talk about a flame fest back when there was little moderating..Terrible!
The written word can also be misinterpreted by the reader and that's why I learned years ago one needs thick skin and common sense to be active on forums.
The funny part is the OP disappeared into thin air.
I would not be surprised if s/he is not getting their lulz now....
NP2626,I think the problem here is you.
For example, are you aware that you use more exclamation points here than you do periods? I went and counted, and in this thread alone, you have 35 sentences. Of the 35 punctuation marks in use, 31 are exclamation points, 2 are question marks, and 2 are periods. Doesn't that seem rather odd to you?
An over-use of exclamation points only serves to get people riled up.
(And just to show you what I mean, I will repost the above using exclamation points to show how different it reads compared to using periods)
I think the problem here is you!
For example, are you aware that you use more exclamation points here than you do periods? I went and counted, and in this thread alone, you have 35 sentences! Of the 35 punctuation marks in use, 31 are exclamation points, 2 are question marks, and 2 are periods! Doesn't that seem rather odd to you?
An over-use of exclamation points only serves to get people riled up!
(See the difference? I said exactly the same thing, but one reads as conversational, while the other in confrontational. Which do you want to communicate?)
Paul A. Cutler III
Paul3 NP2626,I think the problem here is you. For example, are you aware that you use more exclamation points here than you do periods? I went and counted, and in this thread alone, you have 35 sentences. Of the 35 punctuation marks in use, 31 are exclamation points, 2 are question marks, and 2 are periods. Doesn't that seem rather odd to you? An over-use of exclamation points only serves to get people riled up. (And just to show you what I mean, I will repost the above using exclamation points to show how different it reads compared to using periods) I think the problem here is you! For example, are you aware that you use more exclamation points here than you do periods? I went and counted, and in this thread alone, you have 35 sentences! Of the 35 punctuation marks in use, 31 are exclamation points, 2 are question marks, and 2 are periods! Doesn't that seem rather odd to you? An over-use of exclamation points only serves to get people riled up! (See the difference? I said exactly the same thing, but one reads as conversational, while the other in confrontational. Which do you want to communicate?) Paul A. Cutler III
And so, the flame wars begin!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
However, I will take note of how many !!! I use in the future. Certianly, the use of exclaimation points does not mean that I am the root of all evil?
Hasn't "it" all been said in this thread already? Time to get out the clamp.
Crandell
selector Hasn't "it" all been said in this thread already? Time to get out the clamp. Crandell
Agreed..
So, go ahead and demonstrate that all these threads eventually get locked down by the moderators, Brakie!
TA462 NP2626 So, go ahead and demonstrate that all these threads eventually get locked down by the moderators, Brakie! I kind of agree with NP2626. Nobody should promote locking an active thread with active content because THEY don't like it. If the wannabee moderators want to moderate then moderate yourselves by not participating or even looking at threads like these ones. Simple solution eh?
NP2626 So, go ahead and demonstrate that all these threads eventually get locked down by the moderators, Brakie!
I kind of agree with NP2626. Nobody should promote locking an active thread with active content because THEY don't like it. If the wannabee moderators want to moderate then moderate yourselves by not participating or even looking at threads like these ones. Simple solution eh?
Actually I have several years moderating experience and like it or not this topic has ran its course and is beginning to go South.
If this was on one of the forums I moderate on it would be locked as of now.Period.
And maybe a suspension or two handed out.
Guys, I certainly respect all your opinions and even agree with some.
But my big gripe is that the OP - with his grand total of 6 postings on this forum - threw out a grenade, and we all fell on it. He is GONE - and obviously doesn't give a hoot about what any of us has to say. He is very likely laughing his posterior off right now at all the difficulties he caused.
Goodness, I'm at the point I would rather read about "building diaramas" or "the General" !