With the notice that the Proto 2000 0-8-0 and other brands have been cancelled, is the cost of the locomotives and cars getting too high? I have been in this hobby for 40 years. The quality of everything is better than ever except for the cracked gears that you read about in other groups. $400 to $500 dollars is too much to pay for equipment that won't fun. But I am concerned about passing the hobby to the younger followers. I know my modeling dollars are going down. The NMRA membership is down and troubled times seem to not be far off.I truely love model railroading and everything it has to offer but what is the limit?
I guess you're speaking of the N scale loco?
http://www.trainboard.com/grapevine/showthread.php?145383-Walthers-0-8-0-It-has-been-cancelled
OH NO! The sky is falling! The sky is falling!!
Sorry Heavy J611, but I don't think there is a "limit". There will always be model railroaders.
The current reality is that the manufacturers will float an offering and if there is sufficient interest they will build the models. Look at the Rapido Canadian. Two years in the making and $1500! They sold everything they built and I believe they are now offering a second release if I am correct.
I don't think that the cancellation of a particular model indicates the demise of the hobby.
Personally I have spent a whole bunch of money in the past few months on recent rolling stock releases as well as several newer sound decoders and many detail parts. I do have many of the locomotives that I want but there will be several more added to the roster in the future, and if they are offered with decent sound and DCC I will buy the new offerings as opposed to me installing sound in older models myself.
As far as the NMRA membership levels go, personally I think they need to rethink their approach. I was a member a while ago and quite frankly I didn't see much value for my money. My biggest peeve was that many of the letters to the editor seemed to be very negative in tone. It was like having a bunch of rivet counters in a knock down brawl. Unlike Model Railroader, there didn't seem to be any moderators overseeing the comments. Maybe I am too thin skinned (as well as being thick skulled!).
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
As long as this dilapidated old body keeps running there will be a model railroader in residence at my house.
Honesty check. Model railroading is a hobby that I have enjoyed, and still enjoy - but it isn't the only hobby, or the majority hobby. The world will not end when the last model railroader is found collapsed on the floor, DCC remote in hand. The Earth won't wobble in its orbit, the Sun won't go nova and the Universe will not implode in the Big Suck (opposite of the Big Bang.)
Do I care if no youngsters will be there to pick up that remote and carry on? Not really. There is absolutely nothing in it for me.
I'm sure I'd have a different opinion if I was in the model railroad BUSINESS. But, I'm not.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
The hobby will endure. As with many hobbies you can spend a lot or a moderate amount. You can buy a lot or a little. This hobby can be enjoyed with a couple of engines and a dozen cars all costing a couple of hundred dollars or less. Bought over time, even a modest budget of $25-$50 a month will allow one to enjoy the hobby.
This is hobby mostly enjoyed by folks in the middle class. In the last decade the middle class has experienced a decline in numbers and income. With that a decline, middle class activities/spending has also occurred. IMHO, that more than prices leads to a decline in numbers of hobbyists. When the middle class recovers, the hobby will grow again.
Enjoy
Paul
I love it when threads like this pop up.
It is, after all, a hobby. Roight?
And like other hobbies in the past it, too, may undergo changes, tread water for a while, go underground, mutate, or whatever.
I think there are other things that can take priority..such as battling cancer..which I have been doing....
Have fun at it while you are still here..have a great day!!
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
maxman I guess you're speaking of the N scale loco? http://www.trainboard.com/grapevine/showthread.php?145383-Walthers-0-8-0-It-has-been-cancelled
If he is speaking of N that doesn't come as a surprise since Walthers supports HO far more then they have ever supported N Scale as they should since the only N they have is the former LL locomotives and cars.
And from reading N Scale forums for the last four years I suspect there's every little support from N scalers for Walthers line of N Scale..Maybe the real enemy of Walthers N Scale is the N Scalers?
-----------------------------------------------
Yes,the sky is falling and all is doom and gloom for the hobby and the pallbearers is at the door.
However..
Bachmann keeps turning out DCC equipped locomotives and cars at affordable prices and one can buy a sound equipped S4 for around $100.00.Bachmann has a very basic DCC system for multiple train operation.
Walthers has their Train Line.
Atlas has their Trainman Line
Athearn has RTR and their former BB line is readily available if one cares to look.
All of these lower end locomotives and cars can be had at affordable prices from on line shops and e-Bay.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
You know what I'm most tired of is the inability of some of the people who come here to allow others to express their opinions! If you don't feel that the high prices of things are a detriment to the hobby, don't feel that the hobby switching from modeling to purchasing RTR is one of the reasons for the hobby's decline, then good for you! Let those of us who are concerned about such things have our own little discussions on these things and just move on to the next post you can poke fun at!
I'm sure the fact that the youth have little interest the modeling hobbies will have no effect on the hobby what so ever! However, you are right, I don't think I'll have much care about the hobby when I'm dead and gone.
Oh, and it is only a hobby! You would think people with a like interest would be just a little more gracious with each other! Instead it's just like the politics of today! Nobody working together; but, everyone slinging barbs at each other!
NP 2626 "Northern Pacific, really terrific"
Northern Pacific Railway Historical Association: http://www.nprha.org/
NP2626If you don't feel that the high prices of things are a detriment to the hobby, don't feel that the hobby switching from modeling to purchasing RTR is one of the reasons for the hobby's decline, then good for you!
Actually RTR is not the villian..Its all those road specific details some begs for that has driven the price up..Again there are other cheaper ways to enjoy the hobby that as been mention before.One doesn't need DCC,sound,high dollar car and locomotives to enjoy the hobby.Nor does one need to buy from a full price hobby shop.
Hear a stone cold fact..The hobby been "dying" since the slot car fad of the 60s!
I heard the same in the 70s,in the 80s it was video games and D&D,in the 90s roll playing games.currently its the video games,rolling playing games with miniature figures or cards and the high costs.
As far as kids in the hobby I seen kids buying trains at various train shows.
So,yeah,the sky is falling for those that doesn't attend train shows on a regular bases or isn't active in the hobby beyond the confines of their basement.
Do a search on this forum for Price of the Hobby threads....you'll see great heaping piles of them.
There are many of us who are not so well off still in the hobby who are just doing fine using DC or DCC and not going into existential angst mode over the issue.
As for this thread.....IBTL.
Ugh
ANOTHER "the hobby is dying" and "the hobby is expensive" thread!
TO the Original Poster: Threads like this often get locked or deleted due to the "flame war" of topics it incites!
Be forewarned!
Ill sit back and watch
-G .
Just my thoughts, ideas, opinions and experiences. Others may vary.
HO and N Scale.
After long and careful thought, they have convinced me. I have come to the conclusion that they are right. The aliens did it.
What is great about model railroading is that one can spend as little or as much as one wants to and still enjoy the hobby. There are many hobbies where that is not possible and you have to have a bunch of bucks to even get started. It is up to us current modelers to pass on the hobby to our kids and grandkids, not the manufacturers and hobby shops. Teach them how to build and improvise with no cost and low cost alternatives. Some will take to it and some won't just like any hobby.
If the majority of the modelers actually ran their trains (doing OPERATIONS) instead of Roundy-Round they would not get bored with their NEWEST engines and then NEED to get their FIX by purchasing yet another NEW ENGINE!
My layout was built for OPERATIONS
I don't NEED a SPECIFIC engine as the area modeled was generic enough that Conrail just threw any power up this old Branch to keep the old COAL Trains moving.
SO I really don't sit around and watch my trains making ORBIT after ORBIT and then get tired of seeing the same old engine and then HAVE TO go out and purchase a NEW ONE - only to get bored once again.
I only recently made a purchase of 2 sound engines - as I was waiting until they went on sale at HALF Price.
If they hadn't the I would NOT have purchased them.
I don't sit at my computer complainant that such and such engine isn't being made as I am out in the Train Room getting the layout ready for my next OPs Session.
Unfortunately I am seeing more and more of this Run the engines around in circles until I get bored and then go purchase a NEW one to run around in circles to get bored with in another week or two.
While this is the right of the Layout Owner - it is going to be a bonanza when he Kicks the Bucket (and we are already standing in line) as these engine hardly have been broken in and are just sitting on the shelf waiting for a new home on my layout for pennys on the dollar!
Keep on buying those engines - I can wait!
BOB H - Clarion, PA
I really haven't followed this thread so if my reply is inappropiate just ignore it.
As far as the hobby dying, in the last week or so I was surprised by the number of newbies asking for help. Add the lurkors and we would probably be surprised at the number of new modlers and those returning to the hobby.
Bob
Don't Ever Give Up
To the OP, indeed the average kid saving his or her pocket money is not likely to drop $400 on a steam engine. But in no way are those models entry level models, or even representative of what a kid would be interested in purchasing. They are much more likely to be interested in a more modern diesel and looking in the Atlas Trainman, or Athearn Ready to Run lines, which are considerably cheaper.
There is quite a broad range of product on the market. With items targeted at beginners and serious collectors/modellers. Locos under $100 are not uncommon, and that does not include the used market.
Sure, cost will drive some away, but look at the alternatives, the latest edidion of Madden video game is $60!
Simon Modelling CB&Q and Wabash See my slowly evolving layout on my picturetrail site http://www.picturetrail.com/simontrains and our videos at http://www.youtube.com/user/MrCrispybake?feature=mhum
mmmmm...I keep thinking about this topic because it is kind of interesting to compare prices of other 'hobbies' as well...
Another one of my 'hobbies' as running a home recording studio here....just imagine the cost of a good computer system, mixing desk, interface, preamps, mics, stands, guitars, bass(es), amplifiers, stompboxes, and et cetera...then look at this hobby with a new eye....
blownout cylinder mmmmm...I keep thinking about this topic because it is kind of interesting to compare prices of other 'hobbies' as well... Another one of my 'hobbies' as running a home recording studio here....just imagine the cost of a good computer system, mixing desk, interface, preamps, mics, stands, guitars, bass(es), amplifiers, stompboxes, and et cetera...then look at this hobby with a new eye....
Now that you mention it - the other hobbies are not anywhere as cheap as Model Railroading!
I was into Show Cars!!!
Now that is a REALLY INEXPENSIVE Hobby ;-)
I have now moved down the level of EXPENSE to Restoring OLD CUB CADET Lawn Tractors.
I now have to have a Metal Lathe, just purchased a NEW Vertical Mill as well as welders etc. Let alone all of the NEW parts!
Again Model Railroading is CHEAP compared to the other Hobbies! ;-)
YMMV
The OP was talking about Walthers lack of enthusiasm for N scale. He is correct. Walthers has brought out a lot of N scale items over the years, but it appears that they do not see the same return on investment that they see with HO. As a business, you invest your capital where you get the best return.
This is a business decision - Not a personal attack on N scale. The market numbers for Walthers bear this out. Now, maybe a 'niche' market is out there for other manufacturers in N scale. Athearn & Intermountain make some N scale engines/cars, but not a duplicate of their HO line, & they do not do structures. Maybe Walthers spread themselves too far in the market place.
The other part of this thread seems to lament the 'dying hobby' and the usual blame of high prices & batch production runs. Lets face it, this is the new business model as the actual manufacturer of the product is in China.
Jim
Modeling BNSF and Milwaukee Road in SW Wisconsin
To be blunt, I don't think the cost is really a barrier to new members entering the hobby. Adults generally have disposable income and can budget towards purchases. Younger members can either save for longer periods, or ask for items for birthdays and other holidays where the giving of gifts is part of the tradition. It's the mentality of instant gratification or entitlement that causes the problem -- people these days seem to be unwilling to save and wait for what they want (or need).
Those of us with children can encourage them to take it up... not by forcing them to, but by allowing them to participate when Mom or Dad enjoys the hobby. I'm privileged enough to be able to allow my youngest son his own layout -- he's been the only one of my three to take to it (although the middle one has recently shown interest in operations, though not construction. He's done a lot of the scenery work all by himself, although I helped with the model construction.
I also serve as a merit badge counselor for Boy Scouts working on their Railroading badge. Basically, you learn something about real railroads, something about model railroading, then do a final project, which can either be railfanning or model railroad construction. If he chooses model railroading, he actually has to build something -- either a diorama or an actual layout. Our troop has enough money that it pays for the materials for the diorama, or a comparable size of a real layout. So this is another way a newcomer can get started.
Another way to get started inexpensively is to join a club.
And just to set the record straight, prices generally increase over time. My father, in his youth, could ride the bus downtown, have lunch, see a movie, and take the bus home again, for $0.50. To take my family out to a movie -- never mind buses and food -- costs $50. Accept it.
Connecticut Valley Railroad A Branch of the New York, New Haven, and Hartford
"If you think you can do a thing or think you can't do a thing, you're right." -- Henry Ford
BRAKIE As far as kids in the hobby I seen kids buying trains at various train shows. So,yeah,the sky is falling for those that doesn't attend train shows on a regular bases or isn't active in the hobby beyond the confines of their basement.
Larry-Great post, I couldn't have said it any better myself.
A recent experience;
Labor Day weekend I visited a MRR club who recently had made some changes. I noticed some very new (and young) faces, about 12 of them, ranging from 9 to 16 years old. All very involved in running trains for spectators (open house) , soldering, installing a tortoise in a new addition (those young guys crawl under bench work a lot easier than us older folk) and were very involved and respectful of the older members (one in their mid 80's) I have no worries about the future of this hobby.
My Humble Opinion (as always)
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge but imagination."-Albert Einstein
http://gearedsteam.blogspot.com/
Heavy J611 With the notice that the Proto 2000 0-8-0 and other brands have been cancelled, is the cost of the locomotives and cars getting too high? I have been in this hobby for 40 years. The quality of everything is better than ever except for the cracked gears that you read about in other groups. $400 to $500 dollars is too much to pay for equipment that won't fun. But I am concerned about passing the hobby to the younger followers. I know my modeling dollars are going down. The NMRA membership is down and troubled times seem to not be far off.I truely love model railroading and everything it has to offer but what is the limit?
To high for what, or for whom? My first locomotive was over CDN$400, and that was eight years ago. It is a plastic steamer with DCC/Sound. My diesels have been much cheaper, but they can sell more units and keep their prices down to make them more attractive. None of my 17 steamers was less than $150, and those were DC. I had to add speakers and a sound decoder.
Sort of like the proverbial, "How big is an elephant?" About this big [holds his arms yay wide]. The question isn't really if the hobby is getting too costly, it is if it will continue to bring to market items that people are willing to pay for in numbers that keep the suppliers/importers feeling they can make a living. Some items offered or suggested don't have much currency with the buyers, and in this case, Walthers feels it was a lost cause. Move on to another idea and see if it generates more interest. Quite a bit more would be ideal. BLI has offered a GN Northern for years, and seems loath to just drop it. It's still on the books, but still no closer to production. Their 4-12-2 has been on the books for about 4 years, but its proposed delivery date gets put back by six months every six months. Meanwhile, BLI's second and third runs of four or five popular items sell out.
In other words, for you, yep, it sure seems like it. Nothing that you can or want to use is available, and what you hope for is being cancelled. That can't be encouraging, and may appear to signal a demise in the hobby. But, that would be a myopic view. For those of us who do find items we can use, if by conversions or bashing, or who find items that are ideal, we find ways to pay what it takes to get them to our doors. If that means sales in sufficient numbers, the suppliers continue to bring them to market. It's simple economics.
When you consider that many had to make pretty much everything they used at one time, and that for some years later the market had some really iffy products, and that today our models look fantastic, and generally run very well with tight matching specificationis, I would say the hobby is still in very good shape and that it will appeal to many satisfied and motivated buyers for quite some time to come. Railroads have an inherent appeal to them, so I don't see the demise of the hobby until the last spike is pulled up.
Crandell
Can I use this thread to say I think those sound equipped reefers Athearn's got are absolutely ridiculous?
Maybe once or twice a week, I'm less than 30 feet away from an entire train of reefers and I've never heard any sound coming out of them. At least nothing that I could hear over all the other sounds going on.
NittanyLion Can I use this thread to say I think those sound equipped reefers Athearn's got are absolutely ridiculous?
There's a fine example of what one doesn't really need to enjoy the hobby..
I fully agree those reefers are ridiculous.
BRAKIE NittanyLion Can I use this thread to say I think those sound equipped reefers Athearn's got are absolutely ridiculous? There's a fine example of what one doesn't really need to enjoy the hobby.. I fully agree those reefers are ridiculous.
Do you need these to enjoy the hobby? The answer is "no".
On the other hand I wouldn't say the idea is ridiculous. There was an article in MR maybe 15 or more years ago which had a circuit one could build and install in a reefer to provide sound.
Stock cars that had "mooo" anyone?
Here at the Salamanca Rail Museum we see a lot of families with one or two sons who absolutely love trains. Of course, that has a lot to do with a certain blue tank engine, but if it gives the younger generation inspiration, I'm all for it. The key is to get them to the next level which is prototypical modeling with something as simple as an old Model Power or Tyco set that they can play with and it won't wipe out Dads bank account. Usually after that, a parent should be able to tell whether the child will want to stay with the hobby. I've given away a lot of my older HO trains to young families like this. It has paid off with locals who now visit the museum more frequently. We also invite local kids to get involved with the upkeep and operation of the museums N scale layout, and with the new HO layout that is currently under construction. The cost of many new models must be figured into any debate on the future of the hobby, but having four sons, and having to deal with the cost of upgrading the Xbox 360 and the cost of new games, this is still a pretty reasonable hobby, and much more rewarding for the kids.
-Stan
blownout cylinder Stock cars that had "mooo" anyone?
Oh, and I believe that BLI also had some sound cattle cars.
And just for the fun of it, I will add what I always say when these threads come up.
Adjusted for inflation, this hobby is NO MORE EXPENSIVE than it ever was. When Athearn box cars were $2 rather than $20, gas was 35 cents, cars were $3000, houses were $40,000 and $10,000 a year was a good wage.
Just because high taxes or a weak economy have erroded some peoples purchasing power does not change the value of other things relative to what people earn.
And, today in model trains, not all the "brass" is made out of brass - but models of a particular detail level have always been in a higher price class - and so they still are - and there are more of them to choose from.
I had no problem "entering" the hobby at age 12 in 1969 making $1 an hour, I'm sure if they want to today's young people will find a way.
Sheldon
There was an article in MR maybe 15 or more years ago which had a circuit one could build and install in a reefer to provide sound.
------------------------------
Yes,I recall that article and one thing hasn't change over the years..I thought then what I do now..Sound in a reefer is silly..Of course that is subject to change if I get to hear a sound equipped reefer
Now the freight cars with the sound of a flat wheel just might get my attention.