richhotrain Paul_in_GA Hi Rich. Sounds like we have a lot in common when starting out. Can you give me any advice to avoid some of the mistakes. Paul Hi Paul, My best advice is to make the mistakes; that is, if you want to call them "mistakes". Making prototypical blunders, as I would call them, is part of the learning process. When I started out, I wanted diesels and steam engines, so I was forced to declare my layout a mid-1950's era layout. Then, after filling my round house with steamers from PRR, NYC, UP and ATSF, I realized that these particular railroads would not occupy the same facilities. After buying a CSX SD40-2 and running it at the same time as a UP 4-8-2, I realized my no-no. I tried to run 2-10-4 steamers on 22" radius curves. I tried to have six axle diesels negotiate #4 turnouts. I still have 1980's era rolling stock on my 1950's era layout. You make these blunders, you learn. I painted water bright blue. I built a double truss bridge and two feet to the left, the track ran on a level surface. What happened to the river? If I were you, I wouldn't worry about it. Just do your thing. Lay the track the way you want it. Put a bridge where you want it. Buy the locos you like and run them. Build a structure and don't light or decorate the interior. Nothing like vacant store fronts. LOL Over time, you will begin to refine your layout to more closely match the prototype, keeping only the locos that are era specific, etc. etc. Meanwhile, just have fun, explore, make blunders, correct them. Pretty soon, we will be coming to you for advice and critique. Rich
Paul_in_GA Hi Rich. Sounds like we have a lot in common when starting out. Can you give me any advice to avoid some of the mistakes. Paul
Hi Rich. Sounds like we have a lot in common when starting out. Can you give me any advice to avoid some of the mistakes.
Paul
Hi Paul,
My best advice is to make the mistakes; that is, if you want to call them "mistakes".
Making prototypical blunders, as I would call them, is part of the learning process. When I started out, I wanted diesels and steam engines, so I was forced to declare my layout a mid-1950's era layout. Then, after filling my round house with steamers from PRR, NYC, UP and ATSF, I realized that these particular railroads would not occupy the same facilities. After buying a CSX SD40-2 and running it at the same time as a UP 4-8-2, I realized my no-no. I tried to run 2-10-4 steamers on 22" radius curves. I tried to have six axle diesels negotiate #4 turnouts. I still have 1980's era rolling stock on my 1950's era layout.
You make these blunders, you learn.
I painted water bright blue. I built a double truss bridge and two feet to the left, the track ran on a level surface. What happened to the river?
If I were you, I wouldn't worry about it. Just do your thing. Lay the track the way you want it. Put a bridge where you want it. Buy the locos you like and run them. Build a structure and don't light or decorate the interior. Nothing like vacant store fronts. LOL
Over time, you will begin to refine your layout to more closely match the prototype, keeping only the locos that are era specific, etc. etc.
Meanwhile, just have fun, explore, make blunders, correct them. Pretty soon, we will be coming to you for advice and critique.
Rich
Thanks for the kind words and advice Rich.
What I REALLY need is advice on how to work in three dimensions. What I mean by that is how do I know how far to dig into the foam, or how high to elevate track above it. That kind of thing.
Paul_in_GA What I REALLY need is advice on how to work in three dimensions. What I mean by that is how do I know how far to dig into the foam, or how high to elevate track above it. That kind of thing.
Paul, there are two ways to do it.
One way is to simply experiment. How far you dig into foam is up to you. Try it and see if you like it. Does it appear beleivable, realistic? Same for elevating track above the layout surface. You know that the elevation needs to be high enough so that trains passing below it can clear any obstructions. No amount of advice is going to make you an expert unless you try it with your own hand.
The other way is to take measurements from the prototype. As an example, I modeled the Chicago River and added some bridges. I used Google to learn that the river surface is 30 feet below ground level. That is 360 inches which converts to 4.13 inches in HO scale (360/87). So my excavation was 4 inches so that the bottom of the bridge was 4 inches above the surface of the water.
As the Nike slogan says, Just Do It.
The
Alton Junction
My "criticisms" weren't intended that way, but to see if I could get Paul thinking about some deeper design issues. I thought I was careful to point out in the case of the mix of equipment and the overhanging RDC that these are things that might bother some people, and only he could tell whether it was OK for him. Apparently, he's okay with it.
For the river, I was trying to get him to visualize a unified whole rather than individual pieces of the layout.
And, Paul, I think you'll be helped if you go find some photographs of a scene you want to model. Your favorite river, perhaps, or a stream in your favorite park. Look at how the water interacts with the terrain. The only rule about how deep to dig your river is that if you only have 2" of foam, you can't dig down 4". Other than that, if it looks good to you, it IS good. I personally built and ripped out 3 rivers on my original layout before I was happy with it.
Connecticut Valley Railroad A Branch of the New York, New Haven, and Hartford
"If you think you can do a thing or think you can't do a thing, you're right." -- Henry Ford
Rich & CT,
Thanks a lot for taking the time to help me. I am going to take your advice. And I do not feel at all slighted by any comments. I know I'm a newbie and will make a lot of mistakes along the way. That's why I ask you guys!
Nothing like asking experienced people.
I'm STILL a little overwhelmed because this isn't just ONE hobby, it's like a zillion hobbies under one roof.
Benchwork, figuring a layout, laying track, electrical work, scenery, building structures, weathering cars and structures, tiny details, and lots more. But I like it all.
Paul, glad to see you back on line.
I have not forgotten about you and looking forward to talking to you again.
Your Mopar Friend Ken
I hate Rust
CTValleyRR My "criticisms" weren't intended that way, but to see if I could get Paul thinking about some deeper design issues.
My "criticisms" weren't intended that way, but to see if I could get Paul thinking about some deeper design issues.
I wish that I had used the word "critique" rather than "criticisms". I thought that CTValleyRR made valid points based upon the photo. In the final analysis, we are all trying to help the OP with the design process.
cudaken Paul, glad to see you back on line. I have not forgotten about you and looking forward to talking to you again. Your Mopar Friend Ken
Thanks Ken, ditto.
richhotrain CTValleyRR My "criticisms" weren't intended that way, but to see if I could get Paul thinking about some deeper design issues. I wish that I had used the word "critiique" rather than "criticisms". I thought that CTValleyRR made valid points based upon the photo. In the final analysis, we are all trying to help the OP with the design process. Rich
I wish that I had used the word "critiique" rather than "criticisms". I thought that CTValleyRR made valid points based upon the photo. In the final analysis, we are all trying to help the OP with the design process.
And I appreciate the help!
More in the continuing saga of a newbie struggling to learn to build a model RR:
Although I have a lot of books and have been picking through them and they are somewhat helpful most of them reiterate what some of the others have said. So it was with great pleasure to get a copy of Tony Koester's book, "Realistic Model Railroad Operation". This book has opened my eyes to operation, prototype operations, the whys and so on.
He uses the Wingate railroad that Model Railroader magazine published in March of 1995. So I called Kalmbach and they are sending me color copies of the pages where the layout and details of it first appeared. That will help in building it.
So, this will be my first layout. I now have all the track for it, all from Walthers. I have some structures that I have to build that will fit nicely in it and I plan on modifying it a little.
I just have to be careful with the laying and cutting of flex track. I have the Xuron cutters so that's not a problem. I just have to make sure I have the radii correct.
Now things are just STARTING to gel for me. I still have some anxiety about the contouring but my son and I will figure that out with you guy's help, I hope.
So far so good, and enjoying it, all aspects of it, especially the learning of new things.
Paul_in_GA I just have to be careful with the laying and cutting of flex track. I have the Xuron cutters so that's not a problem. I just have to make sure I have the radii correct.
Get a 10" metal Ribbonrail Track Alignment Gauge in the radius that you want for your curves.
Paul_in_GA Now things are just STARTING to gel for me. I still have some anxiety about the contouring but my son and I will figure that out with you guy's help, I hope.
Paul -- this one's got me very confused, because it's almost impossible to screw this up. The only way you can really screw up this part is not to add any, because the world isn't flat, except where man has made it that way. It's generally easier to build up than down. If you have WS risers, put your track up on those. That will give you 2" of relief over your base terrain. Anything you want at the same level as the track (structures, etc.) should also be on risers. Note that you can also substitute 1" or 2" foam for the risers. Once you've got everything marked where you want it, leave some areas (rivers, lakes, small depressions) below the track, and elevate the rest.
There are so many ways to make elevations that it boggles the mind. A few, in no particular order are:
Your books may even have other ideas. All of these methods, and others, will yield good terrain shapes. Try to slope your terrain towards water features, just like nature does.
In this step above all others, just go do it. If you really don't like it, rip it out and try again. We've all done it.
CTValleyRR Paul_in_GA Now things are just STARTING to gel for me. I still have some anxiety about the contouring but my son and I will figure that out with you guy's help, I hope. Paul -- this one's got me very confused, because it's almost impossible to screw this up. The only way you can really screw up this part is not to add any, because the world isn't flat, except where man has made it that way. It's generally easier to build up than down. If you have WS risers, put your track up on those. That will give you 2" of relief over your base terrain. Anything you want at the same level as the track (structures, etc.) should also be on risers. Note that you can also substitute 1" or 2" foam for the risers. Once you've got everything marked where you want it, leave some areas (rivers, lakes, small depressions) below the track, and elevate the rest. There are so many ways to make elevations that it boggles the mind. A few, in no particular order are: Stack up pieces of foam panels like a wedding cake and glue them together. Using a rasp, shape them into rounded shapes (or leave rugged for cliffs, etc.). Cover with a thin layer of Sculptamold, Hydrocal, or ground goop. Use wire screen to make a rough shape. Cover with plaster cloth, paper mache, paper towels dipped in plaster, or newspaper dipped in plaster. Use more plaster, Sculptamold, or ground goop to hide the texture of whatever you put down. Substitute a framework of cardboard strips for the screen and proceed as above. Substitute balled up newspaper for screen and proceed as above. Substitute chicken wire (or just about anything else that will hold a shape) for screen and proceed as above. Your books may even have other ideas. All of these methods, and others, will yield good terrain shapes. Try to slope your terrain towards water features, just like nature does. In this step above all others, just go do it. If you really don't like it, rip it out and try again. We've all done it.
CT, I can't even BEGIN to tell you how much I appreciate your help and advice. I am going to print this out and follow along with your great techniques. Thanks for help easing my mind.
Paul - if you didn't live *quite* so far away, I'd offer a visit. I live above the Mall of Ga.
Brad
EMD - Every Model Different
ALCO - Always Leaking Coolant and Oil
CSX - Coal Spilling eXperts
twcenterprises Paul - if you didn't live *quite* so far away, I'd offer a visit. I live above the Mall of Ga. Brad
Brad, I'd pay for your gas!
Paul_in_GA twcenterprises Paul - if you didn't live *quite* so far away, I'd offer a visit. I live above the Mall of Ga. Brad Brad, I'd pay for your gas!
Would you say that if I lived above the Mall of America? (1000 or so miles)?
PM me.
Paul_in_GA CT, I can't even BEGIN to tell you how much I appreciate your help and advice. I am going to print this out and follow along with your great techniques. Thanks for help easing my mind. Paul
Reward me by giving it a shot, and post some photos!
Paul.
This link goes to a list of some of the books that I have found very helpful. Cover picture and commentary.
Don't forget that these forums are searchable.
Karl!
The mind is like a parachute. It works better when it's open. www.stremy.net
larak Paul. This link goes to a list of some of the books that I have found very helpful. Cover picture and commentary. Don't forget that these forums are searchable. Karl!
Cool! Thanks Karl. I think I'll order a few, as I already have most of them. Some of the ones I saw look extremely helpful to me. I needed that. Thanks.
Paul_in_GA larak Paul. This link goes to a list of some of the books that I have found very helpful. Cover picture and commentary. Don't forget that these forums are searchable. Karl! Cool! Thanks Karl. I think I'll order a few, as I already have most of them. Some of the ones I saw look extremely helpful to me. I needed that. Thanks.
Come on, Paul, you've had your nose buried in books for, what, 3 months now? Reading is a great way to get started, but at some point, you've got to quit reading and start doing. Now get out there and build something!
CTValleyRR Paul_in_GA larak Paul. This link goes to a list of some of the books that I have found very helpful. Cover picture and commentary. Don't forget that these forums are searchable. Karl! Cool! Thanks Karl. I think I'll order a few, as I already have most of them. Some of the ones I saw look extremely helpful to me. I needed that. Thanks. Come on, Paul, you've had your nose buried in books for, what, 3 months now? Reading is a great way to get started, but at some point, you've got to quit reading and start doing. Now get out there and build something!
I have been building. Last weekend I made the 4 x 8 table. I laid out some track and turnouts and connected the DCC and have been running trains.
I am waiting for the plans for the Wingate layout to arrive from Kalmbach. This is from March of 1995. I have the track for it and some structures. But I have real-world responsibilities too. My wife just got out of the hospital after three grueling weeks.
Plus, in order to build one needs something to build with. I'm sure you know how much time it takes to buy or order all the supplies one needs such as, well, everything from plaster cloth to scenery supplies. I have realized that it takes a while to get all this stuff together. So as I wait for things to arrive I work on building rolling stock, building structures, my son and I are making Woodland Scenic's scenery kit with the piece of HO track it comes with which is a cool little diorama and a learning kit. So I have been busy and another thing I have noticed about this hobby. It needs a LOT of time. Lots and lots of time.
So as we used to say in the Air Force when waiting for parts (as I am now), "I'm on hold".
Edit, BTW, I'm not going to order any of those book because some are unavailable and the ones I do have already cover what they cover.
Whoa, Nellie! I'm not saying that you have to be making progress on your layout at all times.... and yes, the hobby really is a time sink. That's why we like it. I just want to make sure that you keep making forward progress and don't go back into "paralysis by analysis" mode.
But I'm confused about something. Looking at the state of your layout, and reading this list, which you posted about a month ago --
Paul_in_GA This is what I have gathered so far over the past few months: Scenery Woodland Scenics - Coarse Turf - T63 Woodland Scenics - (Scene-A-Rama) Low Growth Plant Base Woodland Scenics - Lightweight Hydrocal - C1202 Woodland Scenics - Plaster Cloth - C1203 Paint Createx Airbrush Colors - Medium Gray - 2 fl. oz. - 8MC21-28(01) Createx Airbrush Colors - Light Brown - 2 fl. oz. - GLD11-34 Createx Airbrush Colors - Sand - 2 fl. oz. - GMB27-29(01) Createx Airbrush Colors - (Wicked Colors) - Detail Smoke Black - 2 fl. oz. 0072 Chalk General's Multi Pastel - 12 Earth, Portrait, & Skin Tones - 94012ABP Tools Woodland Scenics - Scenic Sprayer S192 - 8 oz. Walthers - HO gauge - 98-1 Woodland Scenics - Tunnel Liner Form mold - C1250 Woodland Scenics - Hot Wire Foam Cutter - ST1435 Woodland Scenics - Foam cutter Bow & Guide - ST1437 Woodland Scenics - Earth Color Kit - 785-1215 Woodland Scenics - Classic Rock Mold - C1236 Woodland Scenics - Embankments Rock Mold - C1233 Woodland Scenics - Outcroppings Rock Mold - C1230 Woodland Scenics - Base Rock Mold - C1243 Woodland Scenics - Low Temp Foam Glue Gun - WOOST1445 Airbrush Spray Booth Pasche single action airbrush DVD's Woodland Scenics SubTerrain - WOOST 1400 Walthers - Brick & Mortar industrial buildings - Paper models - 217-4111 Books Model Railroader - The DCC Guide Don Fiehmann Model Railroader - Introduction to Model Railroading - Jeff Nelson Walther's 2012 catalog/reference book Kalmbach books - Basic Scenery for Model Railroaders - 12233 Kalmbach books - Basic Trackwork for Model Railroaders - 12254 Kalmbach books - Basic Structure Modeling - 12258 Woodland Scenics - The Scenery Manual - C1207 Woodland Scenics - SubTerrain Manual - ST1402 Structures Walthers - Townhouse kit #3 - 785-1215 Kits Woodland Scenics - Ready Grass vinyl mat - Landscape kit - RG5152 Woodland Scenics - The Scenery Kit - S927
This is what I have gathered so far over the past few months:
Scenery
Woodland Scenics - Coarse Turf - T63
Woodland Scenics - (Scene-A-Rama) Low Growth Plant Base
Woodland Scenics - Lightweight Hydrocal - C1202
Woodland Scenics - Plaster Cloth - C1203
Paint
Createx Airbrush Colors - Medium Gray - 2 fl. oz. - 8MC21-28(01)
Createx Airbrush Colors - Light Brown - 2 fl. oz. - GLD11-34
Createx Airbrush Colors - Sand - 2 fl. oz. - GMB27-29(01)
Createx Airbrush Colors - (Wicked Colors) - Detail Smoke Black - 2 fl. oz. 0072
Chalk
General's Multi Pastel - 12 Earth, Portrait, & Skin Tones - 94012ABP
Tools
Woodland Scenics - Scenic Sprayer S192 - 8 oz.
Walthers - HO gauge - 98-1
Woodland Scenics - Tunnel Liner Form mold - C1250
Woodland Scenics - Hot Wire Foam Cutter - ST1435
Woodland Scenics - Foam cutter Bow & Guide - ST1437
Woodland Scenics - Earth Color Kit - 785-1215
Woodland Scenics - Classic Rock Mold - C1236
Woodland Scenics - Embankments Rock Mold - C1233
Woodland Scenics - Outcroppings Rock Mold - C1230
Woodland Scenics - Base Rock Mold - C1243
Woodland Scenics - Low Temp Foam Glue Gun - WOOST1445
Airbrush Spray Booth
Pasche single action airbrush
DVD's
Woodland Scenics SubTerrain - WOOST 1400
Walthers - Brick & Mortar industrial buildings - Paper models - 217-4111
Books
Model Railroader - The DCC Guide Don Fiehmann
Model Railroader - Introduction to Model Railroading - Jeff Nelson
Walther's 2012 catalog/reference book
Kalmbach books - Basic Scenery for Model Railroaders - 12233
Kalmbach books - Basic Trackwork for Model Railroaders - 12254
Kalmbach books - Basic Structure Modeling - 12258
Woodland Scenics - The Scenery Manual - C1207
Woodland Scenics - SubTerrain Manual - ST1402
Structures
Walthers - Townhouse kit #3 - 785-1215
Kits
Woodland Scenics - Ready Grass vinyl mat - Landscape kit - RG5152
Woodland Scenics - The Scenery Kit - S927
-- I'm wondering what you're missing? Looks like you should have the tools to proceed on your terrain. Unless perhaps you discovered that you need a lot more of something than you have (which often happens in the beginning stages).
IIRC, you're a couple of hours away from a LHS, but again, these basic scenery supplies are the kinds of things that all those stores carry in quantity. It might be worth taking a road trip from time to time rather than stalling out while you're waiting for the UPS man.
Well, I did work on a townhouse structure yesterday. As for those photos of the layout. That was Atlas 83 from the WS DVD/book. I got it to test things out, it has a 15" radius. I'm making the Wingate from March of 95 MRR mag. I have all the stuff except the plans which they're sending me, and I still need some risers for the track. I'm gonna elevate all the track then take your advice about layering. You'll soon see a lot of photos when I get started in earnest. This past weekend I also built a Baldwin VO-1000 Seaboard loco, put a decoder in it and BOY is it hard putting those TINY fragile rails on it! I needed my magnavisor the whole time!
So I'l getting things done slowly. Also, I only have my son every other weekend and he wants to help a LOT so he makes me wait till we can work together. I do other things like structures in the meantime. Then, as I said before, I had a LOT of real-world things going on. I work on a little bit of it every day. It's a time sink for sure but it's fun. I read that it takes a long time to get one finished if it ever gets finished that is. LOL!
Paul_in_GA It's a time sink for sure but it's fun. I read that it takes a long time to get one finished if it ever gets finished that is. LOL!
Boy is THAT true!
I've been working on my Barclay, Towanda & Susquehanna for about 2 years now, and it is small enough to fit in a spare bedroom. But, since I am a high school student, after all, I don't find a lot of time to work on it during the week, so it's really more of a week end project, but it's coming along.
A photo of my Atlas H16-44 crossing the Susquehanna on my N scale lumber railroad. Maybe it will provide some inspiration.
The Lehigh Valley Railroad, the Route of the Black Diamond Express, John Wilkes and Maple Leaf.
-Jake, modeling the Barclay, Towanda & Susquehanna.
Lehigh Valley 2089 Paul_in_GA It's a time sink for sure but it's fun. I read that it takes a long time to get one finished if it ever gets finished that is. LOL! Boy is THAT true! I've been working on my Barclay, Towanda & Susquehanna for about 2 years now, and it is small enough to fit in a spare bedroom. But, since I am a high school student, after all, I don't find a lot of time to work on it during the week, so it's really more of a week end project, but it's coming along. A photo of my Atlas H16-44 crossing the Susquehanna on my N scale lumber railroad. Maybe it will provide some inspiration.
Niiiiiiiiiiiiiiice! High school??? Man you're good. I have a long way to go yet. Also, when I first saw the photo I thought it was HO. I like N scale. Maybe I should have started in N because you can cram more "stuff" in a layout because of its size. My LHS guys has a huge layout he made years ago in N scale and it's beautiful. Multi levels, all kinds of mountains and tunnels, a little town, businesses, you name it. It's a cool miniature world you just wanna step into.
Thank you! I just recently finished adding the majority of the ground cover to my layout's yard, and it's looking pretty good.
And it is pretty amazing to see how good N scale can look with the right steps, and how much you can cram on a sheet of plywood.
Paul, while I am moving slowly I am still working on a plan for when you go to 5 X 14 foot. Outer turns are 26 inch going up a 2% grade and going down grade is 24 inch and still 2%.
Highest elation is 5.2 inches which does not sound high, but in HO scale that is 37.7 feet. At the 5.2 inch make there is a loop that can be ran as a trunk line with 20 inch radius turns.
Main line is takes up around 132 inches X 52 inches. That will leave room for a small yard and or town.
So far the main line is 51 feet and if I did the math right 1.02 scale miles. Hum, my math may be in error.
I will post some pictures as soon as I remember how to turn a Atlas RTS 8.0 file into to a JPG file!
I will try to get the switch stands out in the next few days.
Your friend Ken
cudaken Paul, while I am moving slowly I am still working on a plan for when you go to 5 X 14 foot. Outer turns are 26 inch going up a 2% grade and going down grade is 24 inch and still 2%. Highest elation is 5.2 inches which does not sound high, but in HO scale that is 37.7 feet. At the 5.2 inch make there is a loop that can be ran as a trunk line with 20 inch radius turns. Main line is takes up around 132 inches X 52 inches. That will leave room for a small yard and or town. So far the main line is 51 feet and if I did the math right 1.02 scale miles. Hum, my math may be in error. I will post some pictures as soon as I remember how to turn a Atlas RTS 8.0 file into to a JPG file! I will try to get the switch stands out in the next few days. Your friend Ken
Hi Ken, today my son and I started in earnest on the Wingate Ind. road. We have all the turnouts and track, roadbed, and stuff. Will post some pics. It will be a while before I start a new layout I think as I don't have the room unless I finish this one and tear it down, (or win the lottery).
I got your email about the switch stands and will send the money asap.
Hi Ken,
go to "file / save as" and you will see a drop-out menu at the bottom of the page.
You can chose how to safe your file, i am using the Bitmap (BMP) option. A drawing in BMP is readable by Photobucket.
In Windows you can change a BMP-file into a JPG-file by using the "paint" program. Since Photobucket accepts BMP-files the latter step is not needed.
Smile
Paul from GA, the way you are starting out is the best way, simple. You and your son will enjoy it for sometime.Then, if you want the bigger layout I will have the plain and you will be ready for more of a challenge.
Looking forward to see what you and your son gets done this weekend.
Is 5.2 inches in height OK?
Are you still planing on the Walther's Mining Company? If you are still planing on the mine, do you want it as a drive through or can it be a stub end yard?
Paulus Jas, thanks for the reminder. I am not ready at this point to post any pictures yet, still needs some work.
Ken
Paulus Jas Hi Ken, go to "file / save as" and you will see a drop-out menu at the bottom of the page. You can chose how to safe your file, i am using the Bitmap (BMP) option. A drawing in BMP is readable by Photobucket. In Windows you can change a BMP-file into a JPG-file by using the "paint" program. Since Photobucket accepts BMP-files the latter step is not needed. Smile Paul
OK Paul, I saved as a BMP, how to I send it to My Documents? It clicked on the file, and then send too My Documents. I get a message that says file cannot be read by that application or something along that line?
Any ideas?