The problem I have with the "steam will die out because people haven't seen it in real life" arguement is that real steam operation really died out in most of the country in the early 1950's. Assuming you had to be at least 5 or 6 to even remember it, probably 10-12 to understand it, that would mean that the "people who remember steam" would have to be in their 60-'s to 70's. I know a lot of modelers who model steam who are a lot younger than that. That means they DON'T remember steam and are modeling it.
The second thing that people forget is that USRA cars, F units and 40 ft boxcars pretty much were gone by the mid 1970's. That means that anybody who is 35 or older has never seen F units and 40 ft boxcars. Does that mean the 1960's will also fade away? Don't think that's happening.
What I see is that railroads have a fixed start time, the 1830's and the civil war seems to be about the practical limit. So in 1950 there was 90 years of railroad history from which you could choose. Today there is about 140 years of railroad history to model. What is happening is that with more eras to model all the eras get fewer people modeling them as a percentage of all modelers
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
Of course it is anybodys guess as to what will be 20-50 years out....I think steam will survive as era-specific and I would not assume manufactures will have the same business model they do today. Twenty years ago to publish a book you needed a publisher...today you do it yourself on the internet...Perhaps in the future there will be a library of prototypes accessable that can be custom built on some sort of CNC machine with user selected internals and operating systems....never assume technology will stand still when there is money to be made...
Bob
I am a steam guy, being able to see moving parts is more entertaining. That and I have seen big steam at work.
I play with my steam in a different way though, I do not have a layout of my own so I run my steam as excursions. Steam goes with everything, most people I know its just modern stuff. I love doing "power moves" with double stacks! But its really what ever I can get to pull, grain, stacks and mix anything.I have a GS-6 with a N&W auxiliary tender, tool car, power car, and crew sleeper. Along with those I have for my excursions a Milwaukee Road full dome and Hiawatha observation car, GN full dome 2 heavyweight passenger cars, BN ranch car, NP sleeper, UP sleeper, SP business car, some dome and lounge cars I panted up in Montana Daylight scheme... you get the idea its a mix of cars you likely would find on a excursion.
I don't know if its the future of modeling steamers, but it is fun to pick up a random car because you don't have to get for one road or train you just add it to the consist.
My
The original theme was not meant to be an "us against them" or a diesel vs.steam issue, but where will steam be in the truly distant future in MR. Pretty straight forward, actually.
We all have our biases based on what we love to model. This is one reason I will not join a local MR group. Too many biases that often go visceral. I do know and talk with local fellow model rails and find that general MR conversations are often less tedious. To my knowledge I haven't found anyone locally in the tri-cities area that shares my passion for the narrow gauge, but that's OK, too.
Most I've talked with locally are steam buffs though I have several good friends that are diesel only fans. All of the latter are under 40. I will admit to a long time fascination with traction/electric and those overhead wires. Most model rails can be captivated by anything on rails.
Richard
If I can't fix it, I can fix it so it can't be fixed
The best argument for model steam is that it goes with the era of real railroad cars - not just WalMart boxes full of cheapo crap from China stacked two high. Give me the many varieties of boxcars, variant stock cars, different length gondolas and flats, covered hoppers and coal hoppers, and tank cars that don't look like magnified gelatin capsules full of sleep aids, anti-depressants and anti-anxiety nostrums. Not to mention the freight cars have the names and heralds of dozens and dozens of regional railroads on them, not just four conglomerates and various leasing companies.
"Be Specific, ... " 150 years ago Thomas Durant set an untouched record for corruption and bribery.
"2) Model steam locos (e.g. HO and N scale) do not have the one thing that makes steam locos so interesting to watch - steam. A real live steam loco has steam and smoke spewing out of it - lots of steam and smoke."
The only model diseasels that purport to have smoke have the same wimpy white oil vapors as smoke equipped steam models. None of the clouds of acrid black carbon particulates coated with raw hydrocarbons that I've seen diseasels push out of the trans-Sierra tunnels.
UP 4-12-2 For every "modern diesel guy" I know personally, who owns a huge fleet of diesels, I also know steam fans that also possess significant fleets of steam. To each his own. John
For every "modern diesel guy" I know personally, who owns a huge fleet of diesels, I also know steam fans that also possess significant fleets of steam. To each his own.
John
Yeah it's us electric guys that get the real shaft...
Steam lives, diesels exist. When I started modelling my first loco was SNCF 4-6-2. I still have it. I love that engine, but without remotoring an rewiring it, Marklin ain't running on two rail. I too was born long after steam held sway in the US, but still had some following in Europe and we lived in Europe at the time, so I did get see some live steam, and yes it holds it's place next to the electrics on the layout. But so far the only two diesels that have graced the rails of the layout are a pair of Athearn BB F7's. Don't want any more, don't need any more. They are bullet proof enough for the kids to run and I can find shells almost anywhere.
Steam to railroads is iconic, It speaks to what the general populace think of a locomotive. It'll change proportion of the Model Railroading community, ebb and flow, but disappear or become less than 25% highly doubtful.
Also--given the number of recent product releases in HO steam--including BLI's announcement of a USRA pacific and a PRR consolidation, it is my belief that steam will not only survive, but will thrive in the future.
If it didn't sell they wouldn't be making steam power. It sells (check out MB Klein's current inventory--the steam is virtually cleaned out right now--and it's not that they didn't have much in stock, because they had plenty just recently--the stuff actually sells).
The Roundhouse 2-6-0's are on a current 50% sale from Athearn; yet the number of roadnames available is very limited. Currently both the Athearn/Roundhouse and Bachmann (Alco version) 2-6-0's are selling quite nicely. The Bachmann Spectrum EM-1's are very nearly gone from most dealers' inventory, yet some of the modern diesels remain in sizable numbers. Don't even try to give me the argument that many more diesels of each version and roadname are sold, because I'm not buying that argument--I watch the MB Klein in stock online inventory religiously (daily)--they get a lot of steam power in stock too--and it has become pretty clear they move the steam out just as well as the diesels. Over the last couple months they've moved significant numbers of Spectrum EM-1's and 2-6-6-2's and smaller Roundhouse and regular Bachmann engines of sizable numbers. Sure a few 2-6-6-2's likely still remain--but the numbers they've sold are actually pretty impressive, especially considering the relatively high price of big steam power.
Though overall numbers of diesels sold are probably indeed higher as some have stated, when total dollars spent per locomotive type is considered, I think the overall numbers would be more nearly "even". So I'm unable to buy the assertion that steam is "dying", though in the past I might have argued that position. The fact that today the steam models in general are much more reliable and road specific (for some at least) than in the past seems to be helping the sales.
I am 44, and only know steam via the tourist railroads.
My first trainset had a diesel in it, and for much of the last 39 years I've been in this hobby, my roster was mostly if not all diesel.
However, I am utterly fascinated by steam power, so much so that diesels are being phased out from my layout.
Sure, I just bought a Lehigh Valley F-7, partly because my son loved it, but excepting 1st generation diesels (emphasis on primarily passenger), the diesels are outnumbered and on their way out.
To me, a "modern" diesel is an Alco Century--I care not for today's ugly behemoths (though I have owned them). Also, given Alco's reputation for unreliability, I am unable to feel good about having most Alco diesels on my layout at all. That makes replacing them with steam power that much easier!
A lot of great responses to my post and most are of my mindset. Steam will never die completely from model railroading, but might see a decline related to more limited selections in the distant future. Some of the decline will be in interest by modelers, themselves and some will be market driven lack of demand at the manufacturing end of the scale.
I did note and expected the pure steam buffs to chime in that all steam will continue forever and the diesel purists to herald that steam is dying fast and will be gone. Most, however, were more mellow and considered in depth what model steam's fate might be in a distant future.
Plastic allows for a lot of detail. Brass became ultra scale in the 50'-80's, but modern, post 2000, all metal, non brass steamers have really moved into the high end of steam with Blackstone in HOn3 being one of the finest examples of what can be done in steam circa 2010. They can smoothly crawl at a snail's pace and have sound that is fabulous. If this trend can survive, steam is never going away.
Modern steam models must compete with diesel run characteristics if it is to survive. All Steam locos must be able to smoothly and effortlessly crawl at 1mph as most current diesels do. Nothing is worse than switching at 10mph with a steamer and having it slam into the cars to couple up. It must handle all motional duty's as if in real life.
What was as interesting in this thread was the further suggestion that MR, itself, might well suffer. I can see this in a way, too. Young folks have so many other interests today. A lot of baby boomers, like myself, only had TV as a mindless distraction and there was only so much interesitng TV back then. We developed hobbies, often, lots of them. The question remains how will MR fare 20-30-50 years into the future.
If the economy really tanks and stays depressed, much as in the depression, hobbies and diversions are needed to escape the realities of life, if but for a little while. Movies were the great escape of the original depression era. Hobbies may take over in future hard times.
There is always the male's urge to work with the hands and MR offers an outlet for that. This internal drive will probably keep MR alive.
Steam will always have a following, I predict. At what level this may be, only time will tell.
I'd agree that the number of steam modellers will - and has been for some time - getting smaller, but will never die out. When I started in the hobby in 1971, many modellers refused to run (or even acknowledge the existence of) diesels. Many people modelled their youth, the "standard era" of the 1920's and '30's.
As noted, it is true that it's easier / cheaper to produce an good-running inexpensive diesel than a steam engine, and that since diesels are "off the shelf" rather than custom made the way real steam engines were, that it's easier to model the post-steam era.
Think of the Great Northern for example. Their steam engines (with a few exceptions) were very distinctive, with Belpaire boilers. Outside of a one or two models (like the BLI Heavy Mikado) about the only way to model the GN steam era accurately would be with very expensive brass engines. However, after GN steam ended in the late fifties, it's diesel roster was fairly standard, so a 1960's GN layout would be pretty easy to do using F-units, GPs, SDs and diesel switchers. That era had a lot of the "feel" of the steam era as far as freight cars, buildings, signals, etc., with many of the old steam-era railroads still around (GN, NP, CB&Q, Pennsylvania, NYC, etc.) but with diesels instead of steam.
I think steam will fade from modeling once tall timber trestles fade. That, my friends, would be a sad day!
Hi!
At 68, born and raised in Chicago, I spent a lot of time up close and personal with steam locos. To this day, there is nothing (to me) that represents raw, massive, no nonsense power like a big steamer.
On the model front, I enjoy the postwar ATSF and IC, and have a number of BLI and Spectrum steamers - although they are in the minority as compared to the number of diesels on the layout.
Will the model steamers go away? Well, I surely doubt that, but I do believe their numbers will fade as we war babies and baby boomers steam off into the sunset.
As an aside, I have to remember that I model the era and trains of my youth (late 40s, 50s). Younger modelers will likely lean to the trains of their youth - which could be the 60s thru 90s, all of which are beyond the "age of steam".
All this being said, my absolutely most favorite loco is the BLI ATSF 4-8-4, a real beaut!
ENJOY !
Mobilman44
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
Today, when people pantomime " phone me ", they hold up their hand with their little finger and thumb in a gesture that mimics what?... A handset!
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Or a cell phone or one of those portable home phones.
Look around..Seen all that many public phone booths that was once found just about every city corner?
20-30 years from now steam will be a passing memory:
Teenager 1 yeah,my great grandfather "drove" a steam locomotive.
Teenager 2 Cool man,but whatz that?
As it stands now a lot of the younger modelers recalls the "excursion years" when steam was commonly seen throughout the land.Then there was Thomas and now "Chuggington"-all goofy looking cab units-I found this show while channel surfing and watched 2 whole minutes before moving on to the next channel.
Will Thomas and Friends end up in a museum or become fodder for the scrap pile?
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Up until about a decade ago, the road sign announcing a grade crossing was this:
When they changed it to this one:
people did not take it serious for a long time.
CP Guy:Many new modelers never saw a Geep, an Alco/MLW unit, or a turbine operate either, but they're still super popular....
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There is still lots of geeps in service on short lines..There is few Alco powered short lines as well and of course you tube has both types in short line action.
Steam will eventually fade into the sunset..
IRONROOSTER I think the bigger issue is how many folks will be attracted to model railroading in the future diesel or steam. I'm not talking price here which has been beaten to death many times, but just how much interest will there be. I think all craft hobbies will suffer simply because there are so many more alternatives today and in the future for leisure activities.
I think the bigger issue is how many folks will be attracted to model railroading in the future diesel or steam. I'm not talking price here which has been beaten to death many times, but just how much interest will there be. I think all craft hobbies will suffer simply because there are so many more alternatives today and in the future for leisure activities.
I think that Paul sums it up best in this statement.
Rich
Alton Junction
Seanthehack I am with the others who disagree with the notion that steam locomotive will disappear from the hobby.
I am with the others who disagree with the notion that steam locomotive will disappear from the hobby.
I'm not so sure that anyone said that steam would "disappear" from the hobby, just that steam will "fade" as this generation of model railroaders passes from the scene.
I must be a lucky guy!
There are a number of railroads where steam still reigns the daily operation, not just museums lines. They take people to work, kids to school and tourists to areas of attraction. They are a boost to the local tourist business and a joy to watch.
This is an interesting post, not because of the projected demise of the model steam engine (which I don't think will happen - there will always be steam modelers) but because of the real challenges facing those hardy individuals who are still trying to keep the real steam locos running.
In a very recent post http://vimeo.com/19362299 the narrator explains that today it costs roughly $30,000 CDN to run an oil powered steamer a mere 80 miles. That got my attention! That is a huge expense, and as one poster said, it is cheaper to take a cruise rather than pay for the ride behind the steam engine.
Another poster commented that once you have stood beside a live steam engine you will be addicted for life (not his exact words but you get the drift).
Therein lies the challenge - how do we support and afford the maintenance of those few surviving steam engines?
I had better put my money where my mouth is and go back to the South Simcoe Railway http://www.southsimcoerailway.ca/ and not only pay to ride their beautiful train, but leave something significant in the donation box too.
I guess it is true - you get what you pay for!
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
A few thoughts,
First I do not think it is an age/generation factor. I'm 55 years old and never saw a working steam loco in regular service, only on tourist lines like Strasburg.
BUT I model a time period 4 years before I was born, and that is the REAL factor.
Some of us model history, some of us model what we see every day. This is due to core differences in interests and personality.
There will always be young people who take a fascination with history, some of those people will become model railroaders, and many of them will model steam or transition era periods.
Others who lack an interest in history, will more likely model present day or their own fairly recent past that is in their own personal experiance. I know one such modeler who is older than me - he models TODAY, and constantly updates his rolling stock and loco fleet acordingly.
Personally, I have very little interest in current prototype railroading, I don't know one big modern diesel from the other and don't care to know - but if you want to know something about railroading the 1950's or 1940's - steam or diesel - ask away.
How this will effect the products available, I don't know. But I suspect preorders and pricing will have bigger effects than the progession of generations.
There is one other factor however that is never discussed relating to the manufacturers and what they choose to make. Follow my thinking closely:
First a few givens that may or may not be true.
Let's assume that the number of modelers per capita, and the precentage of their income they spend are constants from one decade to another.
Now, when I got into the hobby in 1967, the only prototype offered by the manufacturers where of locos and rolling stock that existed up that point, and all modelers had to chose an era before that point in time.
Since then many decades have passed, new prototypes have been created, and models of those prototypes made.
So now the available choices of eras is greater, and the "pool" of possible products to be made in any given model scale much larger. But the "market" is still about the same size measured in economic terms, making each item a smaller "factor" in the scheme of the hobby business.
So how does a manufactuer decide which products to make? In theory it would seem that the market for products of any given era would now be smaller than it was in 1967. And I believe this is one of the factors that has actually hurt the ablity of the manufacturers to bring products to market and keep them in production - too many choices - too many different groups of modelers - -none of them big enough to sustain high volumes of production.
Sheldon
I am with the others who disagree with the notion that steam locomotive will disappear from the hobby. Here is my argument,
1) Little kids are still interested in dinosaurs even though no human has ever seen one alive.
2) I prefer muscle cars to the modern "boxes" that we drive today. Even though I was not around during the muscle car era.
Steam locomotives will capture people imaginations, like dinosaurs and muscle cars, even those people who have never seen one standing still or operating.
Sean
I don't think steam will fade away. I think just as tall ships and biplanes appeal to modelers in those fields, so will steam continue. I think both diesels and steamers will exist in the future - probably 50-50. Railroads today are just not as interesting as those of the steam days. Also, railroads don't interact with people's lives like they used to. First there a lot fewer of them and second, long trains of container cars or hoppers are boring after you have seen a few. Fewer people use passenger trains for travel and there are fewer local sidings where a car or two are dropped off.
As in any leisure activity the amount and variety of production both diesel and steamer will depend on the number of folks involved.
Paul
I think there will always be an interest in steam locos, as long as wheels roll on miniature rails. If we would only model what we see, long gone would be all the F-units, the SW switchers, the U-boats.
There is always a touch of nostalgia connecting to model building. Without that, there wouldn´t be models of old ships, war birds and - steam locos.
I disagree wholeheartedly with your viewpoint, and here's why:
People have been crying out over the end of model steam for decades now.
For seasoned modelers, there is an almost sexual attraction to a steamer.
Steamers are unique and different to younger modelers.
So, those are just a few minor things.
I do believe however, that other than the USRA standard designs, finding new steam in plastic might be tougher as time goes on,
And getting steam "right" sometimes can be a pain in the posterior
Steamers won't go away anymore than GP-7's will. Many new modelers never saw a Geep, an Alco/MLW unit, or a turbine operate either, but they're still super popular....
Van Hobbies H1b, K1a, T1c, D10g, F1a, F2a, G5a. Division Point: H24-66 Hammerhead, Alco covered wagons A-B-B-A, C-Liner A-B-B-A, EMD FP7A A-B-B.
H1b modified to replicate modern day 2816. All with Tsunamis.
Nearing 50, I was still to late for real steamers to run the rails by my house growing up. HTe diesels rulled the day.
I like steam. I have 2 steam locos and 12 diesels. I don't know what that says, BUT: when I got back into the hobby, I was going to be a steamhead only, so I got one in HO a sacle new to me from O-O/27 and N. BUT, I got a DCC GP35 Chessie diesel on a whim, but also because they started making the 1:1 models when I was born,so it is "as old as I am"
Long story short, I LOVED it!. I loved the fact that it ran smooth and quiet and didn't need any adjustments to run good. I even posted a thread in 2007 called "new admiration for diesels" or something similar. {found it: http://cs.trains.com/TRCCS/forums/p/105593/1224615.aspx#1224615 }
I kinda went to diesels...I began to fall in love with what i used to call "moving boxes on wheels"
Now, MIND YOU, I ABSOLUTELY LOVE being around 1:1 steamers on tourist lines and at Steamtown National Historical PArk...we live close enough to go often! But I see more and more tourist lines are: 1} finding it dificult to fund operations of steamers, 2} finding it harder to get ro make the parts necessary to rebuild a steamer, 3} finding funds to rebuild harder to get, 4} finding it harder to get staff to operate the steamers, 5} finding the poor economy hurting sales of rides, and some closing down permanently. and more issues than just those to name a few.
I see 1:1 steamers fading away from operating to static displays unfortunately, which, in my opinion does not give a viewer ANY SENSE of what an operating steamer is all about..the sights, sounds, smells...
I think the younger set will want to run more diesels...TRUE there will be young'uns who ARE into steamers, but as we all know, if sales drop too much, they won't manufacture them anymore!
After all, how many horse buggy manufacturers are there today???
Just my opiniom, others may vary. Limit one per customer, void where prohibited by law. Close cover before striking. DO not use on, in or near water. DO not use near heat or incinerate.Will self destruct in ten minutes. *poof*
-G .
Just my thoughts, ideas, opinions and experiences. Others may vary.
HO and N Scale.
After long and careful thought, they have convinced me. I have come to the conclusion that they are right. The aliens did it.
I am 24 and I have always been a steam fan. When I got my first HO train set it was a diesel loco, and while fun I still wanted a steam loco. I remember my first HO one. I bought it at a train show it had the motor in the tender and puffed smoke. It was not the best quality, but it was a steamer at last.
It is true that to love steam you have to experience it. As I did as child and I never went back. I hope steam stays in the hobby but I have noticed a drop in steamers available. I work at a hobby shop and do purchasing in the train department. We get flooded with ads and new release announcements for diesels, but steamers are definitely rarer. They are more expensive, but I at least think they are worth the money.
I have a freelance layout that is supposed to be set in the 1930s-40s. Never lived in that time, but through history books, movies, and museums I find it a fascinating time to model. Honestly, I’m not sure if I would ever model the present day on a layout. I personally think modern day diesels (at least North America style) are ugly. Classics like the F and E series are ok, but that would be about it for me.
I also find early electric locos interesting and they are hard to find too, probably because no one wants to mess with overhead wires on a layout.
Gilshrat
Detroit Urethane - Urethane products for industry “We Get It Right The THIRD Time!”
I'm 34 years old and though I'm starting to appreciate diesels, I'm still more interested in steam. I also prefer heavyweight passenger cars to streamliners or more modern passenger equipment.