In a recent discussion with some older model rails, a few were of the opinion that model steamers would fade in years to come. All agreed they would never disappear but hinted that many modern modelers of the younger set were never around operating steam and in spite of cool videos and real tourist steam operations all over the U.S., many choose the familiar diesel as there motive power choice.
I tended to defend steam in the future modeler's layouts, but admitted that far more people start out today with 100% diesel roads, mostly due to cost factors.
We went on to enumerate the various reasons why diesels are used more than steam especially in startup layouts.
#1 They are just plain less expensive at the beginner level
#2 At any given price point, a diesel will always out "realistically perform" a steam model. (Big money is needed for a flawless performing steamer.)
#3 For those looking to go DCC and convert, the diesel often has a lot more room in it that a steamer and you are not wiring to another car in tow. (Almost no steamer winds up with DCC sound and controller in the boiler!) The tender, while roomy in the big road engines can be quite small on early 1900's engines.
#4 Diesels are familiar to the under 50 set and many have modeled them all their MR careers for the reasons noted above.
In the end, most of us felt that it would 20-50 years down the road before steamers would fade to the point that the available selection would be heavily reduced based on reduced demand on sales. We felt this in spite of the modern work in making steamers much more realistic in operation, though still a bit more pricey than a flawlessly performing diesel.
What are the thoughts of others here? Will pure nostalgia and steam's innate coolness remain forever and support continued variety releases and re-releases? I would like to think so, but I think a lot of things that are wrong headed sometimes.
Richard
If I can't fix it, I can fix it so it can't be fixed
I model steam, was never arround real steam.
You help make my argument to the others. Steam is far too cool and interesting to just go the way of the dodo bird. Folks will continue to be infected by innoculation on the internet watching old steam in action or going to a live steam tourist road and falling love with the look and lore.
Economically, the real railroads had to abandon steam, but I feel model rails never will.
Harry k Birks
I'm sure that if the non-steam generation ever stood beside a steam locomotive as it was passing that would trigger an instant interest into steam locomotives, I know, it will never sway diesel buffs to switch to steam but would generate some interest. Actually an interesting post which I never contemplated, be nice to see more reasons just what will happen in the future.
I have to disagree with a few of your summations.
#1 Look at Bachmann. For entry level steam they can't be beat. I also have some BLI Blueline series that were under $175 brand new.
#2 If you can tinker you can get your steamers running better than a diesel. I used to MU 2 or even 3 steamers up front pulling 60 or more cars with 2 pushers on the rear and run up the big hill at the club. All with sound. It was a big draw and most other operators would stop their trains and watch the show.
#3 I just finished a brass 0-6-0 with sound. I put the decoder and all the wiring inside under the motor in the ash pan and ran just 2 wires to the speaker in the tender that filled the whole floor of the little slope back.
#4 The youngest members of our club are steam heads. Neither one owns a diesel. One is 16 the other is 13. They will be around a long time.
I was not even a glimmer in the old mans eye when steam dropped the fires. I grew up with diesels and own very few of them. I will take steam any day.
Pete
I pray every day I break even, Cause I can really use the money!
I started with nothing and still have most of it left!
I'm 34 and have always liked steam, but I'd say my interest has really grown in the past 10 years or so. Although I can appreciate all steam, the only ones I really care to own at this time are from the CB&Q. I've got 5 or 6 CB&Q brass steam engines along with a couple scratchbuilds, with many more planned.
I've only seen three real, operating steam engines so far. I've seen 4449 run by, 1630 at IRM long before I could appreciate it, and I've recently seen the Leviathan.
Steam will fade once the generations that experienced it die off.
But, let's face it, model railroading itself will fade as the Baby Boomer generation dies off.
Rich
Alton Junction
Richard,I remember the last years of main line steam and seeing long dead lines of stored steam locomotives awaiting the scrapper and yet I never really got bit by the steam bug.Over the years I had a Santa Fe 1950 class 2-8-0 by united,a U.P 0-6-0 by United,a class B 2 truck Shay by United,a MDC Shay and a Bachmann 0-6-0T but,just couldn't stay interested in steam.
To be honest I have thought about modeling a short line set in 1955 but,so far its been nothing more then a idea.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
I never was nor ever will be interested in modeling steam. Why?
1) I was born when the last steam locos were taken out of service, therefore no prototype steam locos to inspire me to model.
2) Model steam locos (e.g. HO and N scale) do not have the one thing that makes steam locos so interesting to watch - steam. A real live steam loco has steam and smoke spewing out of it - lots of steam and smoke.
3) Real steam locos have details that are specific to particular railways - e.g. boilers, cabs, domes, piping, tenders, headlights, etc. Plastic models of such locos are rare - most plastic models are the USRA type.
As for the future of steam models, it's pretty much a safe bet that model railroad manufacturers will continue to offer steam locos. There are always going to be a few people out there that like the woo woo chugga chugga stuff.
In the numerous discussions of this nature, and those related to the unsteady pins on which our hobby rests [as one former member lamented with regularity], I did agree with those who assume that steam's days as a market commodity in the hobby are numbered. It stands to reason that as more steamers drop their excursion/theme park fires over the next 40-80 years and cannot be economically refurbished or operated due to lack of subscriptions or interested benefactors/sponsors, steam will increasingly become a distant anachronism to those who enter the hobby as newcomers. They just won't have much of an appreciation for steam when the last one or two die for the last time and go to museums. Diesels, themselves, are surely in a finite lifespan both in real life and in the hobby, and for the same reasons; they'll be found uneconomical for any number of reasons, u-pick-'em, and will be relegated to silent looming shadows in darkened museums after hours.
I won't state that no one will offer them, but if you think the brass market in steam is tight now, and that even diecast and plastic steam is a waiting game after placing a pre-order now is tough, wait for a few years to see how the very tiny market will require serious up-front orders in order to justify the costs of producing the many, many, different types of steamers that existed on the high rails 70 years ago. The money can't help but go to the Great Lion that is consumer interest, and that will be what they first find a thrill in when it comes to railroad experiences. It will almost certainly not be as much steam as we see today.
Crandell
I'm 34 years old and though I'm starting to appreciate diesels, I'm still more interested in steam. I also prefer heavyweight passenger cars to streamliners or more modern passenger equipment.
I am 24 and I have always been a steam fan. When I got my first HO train set it was a diesel loco, and while fun I still wanted a steam loco. I remember my first HO one. I bought it at a train show it had the motor in the tender and puffed smoke. It was not the best quality, but it was a steamer at last.
It is true that to love steam you have to experience it. As I did as child and I never went back. I hope steam stays in the hobby but I have noticed a drop in steamers available. I work at a hobby shop and do purchasing in the train department. We get flooded with ads and new release announcements for diesels, but steamers are definitely rarer. They are more expensive, but I at least think they are worth the money.
I have a freelance layout that is supposed to be set in the 1930s-40s. Never lived in that time, but through history books, movies, and museums I find it a fascinating time to model. Honestly, I’m not sure if I would ever model the present day on a layout. I personally think modern day diesels (at least North America style) are ugly. Classics like the F and E series are ok, but that would be about it for me.
I also find early electric locos interesting and they are hard to find too, probably because no one wants to mess with overhead wires on a layout.
Gilshrat
Detroit Urethane - Urethane products for industry “We Get It Right The THIRD Time!”
Nearing 50, I was still to late for real steamers to run the rails by my house growing up. HTe diesels rulled the day.
I like steam. I have 2 steam locos and 12 diesels. I don't know what that says, BUT: when I got back into the hobby, I was going to be a steamhead only, so I got one in HO a sacle new to me from O-O/27 and N. BUT, I got a DCC GP35 Chessie diesel on a whim, but also because they started making the 1:1 models when I was born,so it is "as old as I am"
Long story short, I LOVED it!. I loved the fact that it ran smooth and quiet and didn't need any adjustments to run good. I even posted a thread in 2007 called "new admiration for diesels" or something similar. {found it: http://cs.trains.com/TRCCS/forums/p/105593/1224615.aspx#1224615 }
I kinda went to diesels...I began to fall in love with what i used to call "moving boxes on wheels"
Now, MIND YOU, I ABSOLUTELY LOVE being around 1:1 steamers on tourist lines and at Steamtown National Historical PArk...we live close enough to go often! But I see more and more tourist lines are: 1} finding it dificult to fund operations of steamers, 2} finding it harder to get ro make the parts necessary to rebuild a steamer, 3} finding funds to rebuild harder to get, 4} finding it harder to get staff to operate the steamers, 5} finding the poor economy hurting sales of rides, and some closing down permanently. and more issues than just those to name a few.
I see 1:1 steamers fading away from operating to static displays unfortunately, which, in my opinion does not give a viewer ANY SENSE of what an operating steamer is all about..the sights, sounds, smells...
I think the younger set will want to run more diesels...TRUE there will be young'uns who ARE into steamers, but as we all know, if sales drop too much, they won't manufacture them anymore!
After all, how many horse buggy manufacturers are there today???
Just my opiniom, others may vary. Limit one per customer, void where prohibited by law. Close cover before striking. DO not use on, in or near water. DO not use near heat or incinerate.Will self destruct in ten minutes. *poof*
-G .
Just my thoughts, ideas, opinions and experiences. Others may vary.
HO and N Scale.
After long and careful thought, they have convinced me. I have come to the conclusion that they are right. The aliens did it.
I disagree wholeheartedly with your viewpoint, and here's why:
People have been crying out over the end of model steam for decades now.
For seasoned modelers, there is an almost sexual attraction to a steamer.
Steamers are unique and different to younger modelers.
So, those are just a few minor things.
I do believe however, that other than the USRA standard designs, finding new steam in plastic might be tougher as time goes on,
And getting steam "right" sometimes can be a pain in the posterior
Steamers won't go away anymore than GP-7's will. Many new modelers never saw a Geep, an Alco/MLW unit, or a turbine operate either, but they're still super popular....
Van Hobbies H1b, K1a, T1c, D10g, F1a, F2a, G5a. Division Point: H24-66 Hammerhead, Alco covered wagons A-B-B-A, C-Liner A-B-B-A, EMD FP7A A-B-B.
H1b modified to replicate modern day 2816. All with Tsunamis.
I think there will always be an interest in steam locos, as long as wheels roll on miniature rails. If we would only model what we see, long gone would be all the F-units, the SW switchers, the U-boats.
There is always a touch of nostalgia connecting to model building. Without that, there wouldn´t be models of old ships, war birds and - steam locos.
I don't think steam will fade away. I think just as tall ships and biplanes appeal to modelers in those fields, so will steam continue. I think both diesels and steamers will exist in the future - probably 50-50. Railroads today are just not as interesting as those of the steam days. Also, railroads don't interact with people's lives like they used to. First there a lot fewer of them and second, long trains of container cars or hoppers are boring after you have seen a few. Fewer people use passenger trains for travel and there are fewer local sidings where a car or two are dropped off.
I think the bigger issue is how many folks will be attracted to model railroading in the future diesel or steam. I'm not talking price here which has been beaten to death many times, but just how much interest will there be. I think all craft hobbies will suffer simply because there are so many more alternatives today and in the future for leisure activities.
As in any leisure activity the amount and variety of production both diesel and steamer will depend on the number of folks involved.
Paul
I am with the others who disagree with the notion that steam locomotive will disappear from the hobby. Here is my argument,
1) Little kids are still interested in dinosaurs even though no human has ever seen one alive.
2) I prefer muscle cars to the modern "boxes" that we drive today. Even though I was not around during the muscle car era.
Steam locomotives will capture people imaginations, like dinosaurs and muscle cars, even those people who have never seen one standing still or operating.
Sean
A few thoughts,
First I do not think it is an age/generation factor. I'm 55 years old and never saw a working steam loco in regular service, only on tourist lines like Strasburg.
BUT I model a time period 4 years before I was born, and that is the REAL factor.
Some of us model history, some of us model what we see every day. This is due to core differences in interests and personality.
There will always be young people who take a fascination with history, some of those people will become model railroaders, and many of them will model steam or transition era periods.
Others who lack an interest in history, will more likely model present day or their own fairly recent past that is in their own personal experiance. I know one such modeler who is older than me - he models TODAY, and constantly updates his rolling stock and loco fleet acordingly.
Personally, I have very little interest in current prototype railroading, I don't know one big modern diesel from the other and don't care to know - but if you want to know something about railroading the 1950's or 1940's - steam or diesel - ask away.
How this will effect the products available, I don't know. But I suspect preorders and pricing will have bigger effects than the progession of generations.
There is one other factor however that is never discussed relating to the manufacturers and what they choose to make. Follow my thinking closely:
First a few givens that may or may not be true.
Let's assume that the number of modelers per capita, and the precentage of their income they spend are constants from one decade to another.
Now, when I got into the hobby in 1967, the only prototype offered by the manufacturers where of locos and rolling stock that existed up that point, and all modelers had to chose an era before that point in time.
Since then many decades have passed, new prototypes have been created, and models of those prototypes made.
So now the available choices of eras is greater, and the "pool" of possible products to be made in any given model scale much larger. But the "market" is still about the same size measured in economic terms, making each item a smaller "factor" in the scheme of the hobby business.
So how does a manufactuer decide which products to make? In theory it would seem that the market for products of any given era would now be smaller than it was in 1967. And I believe this is one of the factors that has actually hurt the ablity of the manufacturers to bring products to market and keep them in production - too many choices - too many different groups of modelers - -none of them big enough to sustain high volumes of production.
Sheldon
This is an interesting post, not because of the projected demise of the model steam engine (which I don't think will happen - there will always be steam modelers) but because of the real challenges facing those hardy individuals who are still trying to keep the real steam locos running.
In a very recent post http://vimeo.com/19362299 the narrator explains that today it costs roughly $30,000 CDN to run an oil powered steamer a mere 80 miles. That got my attention! That is a huge expense, and as one poster said, it is cheaper to take a cruise rather than pay for the ride behind the steam engine.
Another poster commented that once you have stood beside a live steam engine you will be addicted for life (not his exact words but you get the drift).
Therein lies the challenge - how do we support and afford the maintenance of those few surviving steam engines?
I had better put my money where my mouth is and go back to the South Simcoe Railway http://www.southsimcoerailway.ca/ and not only pay to ride their beautiful train, but leave something significant in the donation box too.
I guess it is true - you get what you pay for!
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
I must be a lucky guy!
There are a number of railroads where steam still reigns the daily operation, not just museums lines. They take people to work, kids to school and tourists to areas of attraction. They are a boost to the local tourist business and a joy to watch.
Seanthehack I am with the others who disagree with the notion that steam locomotive will disappear from the hobby.
I am with the others who disagree with the notion that steam locomotive will disappear from the hobby.
I'm not so sure that anyone said that steam would "disappear" from the hobby, just that steam will "fade" as this generation of model railroaders passes from the scene.
IRONROOSTER I think the bigger issue is how many folks will be attracted to model railroading in the future diesel or steam. I'm not talking price here which has been beaten to death many times, but just how much interest will there be. I think all craft hobbies will suffer simply because there are so many more alternatives today and in the future for leisure activities.
I think that Paul sums it up best in this statement.
CP Guy:Many new modelers never saw a Geep, an Alco/MLW unit, or a turbine operate either, but they're still super popular....
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There is still lots of geeps in service on short lines..There is few Alco powered short lines as well and of course you tube has both types in short line action.
Steam will eventually fade into the sunset..
Up until about a decade ago, the road sign announcing a grade crossing was this:
When they changed it to this one:
people did not take it serious for a long time.
Today, when people pantomime " phone me ", they hold up their hand with their little finger and thumb in a gesture that mimics what?... A handset!
----------------------------------------------
Or a cell phone or one of those portable home phones.
Look around..Seen all that many public phone booths that was once found just about every city corner?
20-30 years from now steam will be a passing memory:
Teenager 1 yeah,my great grandfather "drove" a steam locomotive.
Teenager 2 Cool man,but whatz that?
As it stands now a lot of the younger modelers recalls the "excursion years" when steam was commonly seen throughout the land.Then there was Thomas and now "Chuggington"-all goofy looking cab units-I found this show while channel surfing and watched 2 whole minutes before moving on to the next channel.
Will Thomas and Friends end up in a museum or become fodder for the scrap pile?
Hi!
At 68, born and raised in Chicago, I spent a lot of time up close and personal with steam locos. To this day, there is nothing (to me) that represents raw, massive, no nonsense power like a big steamer.
On the model front, I enjoy the postwar ATSF and IC, and have a number of BLI and Spectrum steamers - although they are in the minority as compared to the number of diesels on the layout.
Will the model steamers go away? Well, I surely doubt that, but I do believe their numbers will fade as we war babies and baby boomers steam off into the sunset.
As an aside, I have to remember that I model the era and trains of my youth (late 40s, 50s). Younger modelers will likely lean to the trains of their youth - which could be the 60s thru 90s, all of which are beyond the "age of steam".
All this being said, my absolutely most favorite loco is the BLI ATSF 4-8-4, a real beaut!
ENJOY !
Mobilman44
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
I think steam will fade from modeling once tall timber trestles fade. That, my friends, would be a sad day!
I'd agree that the number of steam modellers will - and has been for some time - getting smaller, but will never die out. When I started in the hobby in 1971, many modellers refused to run (or even acknowledge the existence of) diesels. Many people modelled their youth, the "standard era" of the 1920's and '30's.
As noted, it is true that it's easier / cheaper to produce an good-running inexpensive diesel than a steam engine, and that since diesels are "off the shelf" rather than custom made the way real steam engines were, that it's easier to model the post-steam era.
Think of the Great Northern for example. Their steam engines (with a few exceptions) were very distinctive, with Belpaire boilers. Outside of a one or two models (like the BLI Heavy Mikado) about the only way to model the GN steam era accurately would be with very expensive brass engines. However, after GN steam ended in the late fifties, it's diesel roster was fairly standard, so a 1960's GN layout would be pretty easy to do using F-units, GPs, SDs and diesel switchers. That era had a lot of the "feel" of the steam era as far as freight cars, buildings, signals, etc., with many of the old steam-era railroads still around (GN, NP, CB&Q, Pennsylvania, NYC, etc.) but with diesels instead of steam.