A lot of great responses to my post and most are of my mindset. Steam will never die completely from model railroading, but might see a decline related to more limited selections in the distant future. Some of the decline will be in interest by modelers, themselves and some will be market driven lack of demand at the manufacturing end of the scale.
I did note and expected the pure steam buffs to chime in that all steam will continue forever and the diesel purists to herald that steam is dying fast and will be gone. Most, however, were more mellow and considered in depth what model steam's fate might be in a distant future.
Plastic allows for a lot of detail. Brass became ultra scale in the 50'-80's, but modern, post 2000, all metal, non brass steamers have really moved into the high end of steam with Blackstone in HOn3 being one of the finest examples of what can be done in steam circa 2010. They can smoothly crawl at a snail's pace and have sound that is fabulous. If this trend can survive, steam is never going away.
Modern steam models must compete with diesel run characteristics if it is to survive. All Steam locos must be able to smoothly and effortlessly crawl at 1mph as most current diesels do. Nothing is worse than switching at 10mph with a steamer and having it slam into the cars to couple up. It must handle all motional duty's as if in real life.
What was as interesting in this thread was the further suggestion that MR, itself, might well suffer. I can see this in a way, too. Young folks have so many other interests today. A lot of baby boomers, like myself, only had TV as a mindless distraction and there was only so much interesitng TV back then. We developed hobbies, often, lots of them. The question remains how will MR fare 20-30-50 years into the future.
If the economy really tanks and stays depressed, much as in the depression, hobbies and diversions are needed to escape the realities of life, if but for a little while. Movies were the great escape of the original depression era. Hobbies may take over in future hard times.
There is always the male's urge to work with the hands and MR offers an outlet for that. This internal drive will probably keep MR alive.
Steam will always have a following, I predict. At what level this may be, only time will tell.
Richard
If I can't fix it, I can fix it so it can't be fixed
I am 44, and only know steam via the tourist railroads.
My first trainset had a diesel in it, and for much of the last 39 years I've been in this hobby, my roster was mostly if not all diesel.
However, I am utterly fascinated by steam power, so much so that diesels are being phased out from my layout.
Sure, I just bought a Lehigh Valley F-7, partly because my son loved it, but excepting 1st generation diesels (emphasis on primarily passenger), the diesels are outnumbered and on their way out.
To me, a "modern" diesel is an Alco Century--I care not for today's ugly behemoths (though I have owned them). Also, given Alco's reputation for unreliability, I am unable to feel good about having most Alco diesels on my layout at all. That makes replacing them with steam power that much easier!
John
Also--given the number of recent product releases in HO steam--including BLI's announcement of a USRA pacific and a PRR consolidation, it is my belief that steam will not only survive, but will thrive in the future.
If it didn't sell they wouldn't be making steam power. It sells (check out MB Klein's current inventory--the steam is virtually cleaned out right now--and it's not that they didn't have much in stock, because they had plenty just recently--the stuff actually sells).
The Roundhouse 2-6-0's are on a current 50% sale from Athearn; yet the number of roadnames available is very limited. Currently both the Athearn/Roundhouse and Bachmann (Alco version) 2-6-0's are selling quite nicely. The Bachmann Spectrum EM-1's are very nearly gone from most dealers' inventory, yet some of the modern diesels remain in sizable numbers. Don't even try to give me the argument that many more diesels of each version and roadname are sold, because I'm not buying that argument--I watch the MB Klein in stock online inventory religiously (daily)--they get a lot of steam power in stock too--and it has become pretty clear they move the steam out just as well as the diesels. Over the last couple months they've moved significant numbers of Spectrum EM-1's and 2-6-6-2's and smaller Roundhouse and regular Bachmann engines of sizable numbers. Sure a few 2-6-6-2's likely still remain--but the numbers they've sold are actually pretty impressive, especially considering the relatively high price of big steam power.
Though overall numbers of diesels sold are probably indeed higher as some have stated, when total dollars spent per locomotive type is considered, I think the overall numbers would be more nearly "even". So I'm unable to buy the assertion that steam is "dying", though in the past I might have argued that position. The fact that today the steam models in general are much more reliable and road specific (for some at least) than in the past seems to be helping the sales.
For every "modern diesel guy" I know personally, who owns a huge fleet of diesels, I also know steam fans that also possess significant fleets of steam. To each his own.
UP 4-12-2 For every "modern diesel guy" I know personally, who owns a huge fleet of diesels, I also know steam fans that also possess significant fleets of steam. To each his own. John
Yeah it's us electric guys that get the real shaft...
Steam lives, diesels exist. When I started modelling my first loco was SNCF 4-6-2. I still have it. I love that engine, but without remotoring an rewiring it, Marklin ain't running on two rail. I too was born long after steam held sway in the US, but still had some following in Europe and we lived in Europe at the time, so I did get see some live steam, and yes it holds it's place next to the electrics on the layout. But so far the only two diesels that have graced the rails of the layout are a pair of Athearn BB F7's. Don't want any more, don't need any more. They are bullet proof enough for the kids to run and I can find shells almost anywhere.
Steam to railroads is iconic, It speaks to what the general populace think of a locomotive. It'll change proportion of the Model Railroading community, ebb and flow, but disappear or become less than 25% highly doubtful.
"2) Model steam locos (e.g. HO and N scale) do not have the one thing that makes steam locos so interesting to watch - steam. A real live steam loco has steam and smoke spewing out of it - lots of steam and smoke."
The only model diseasels that purport to have smoke have the same wimpy white oil vapors as smoke equipped steam models. None of the clouds of acrid black carbon particulates coated with raw hydrocarbons that I've seen diseasels push out of the trans-Sierra tunnels.
The best argument for model steam is that it goes with the era of real railroad cars - not just WalMart boxes full of cheapo crap from China stacked two high. Give me the many varieties of boxcars, variant stock cars, different length gondolas and flats, covered hoppers and coal hoppers, and tank cars that don't look like magnified gelatin capsules full of sleep aids, anti-depressants and anti-anxiety nostrums. Not to mention the freight cars have the names and heralds of dozens and dozens of regional railroads on them, not just four conglomerates and various leasing companies.
"Be Specific, ... " 150 years ago Thomas Durant set an untouched record for corruption and bribery.
The original theme was not meant to be an "us against them" or a diesel vs.steam issue, but where will steam be in the truly distant future in MR. Pretty straight forward, actually.
We all have our biases based on what we love to model. This is one reason I will not join a local MR group. Too many biases that often go visceral. I do know and talk with local fellow model rails and find that general MR conversations are often less tedious. To my knowledge I haven't found anyone locally in the tri-cities area that shares my passion for the narrow gauge, but that's OK, too.
Most I've talked with locally are steam buffs though I have several good friends that are diesel only fans. All of the latter are under 40. I will admit to a long time fascination with traction/electric and those overhead wires. Most model rails can be captivated by anything on rails.
I am a steam guy, being able to see moving parts is more entertaining. That and I have seen big steam at work.
I play with my steam in a different way though, I do not have a layout of my own so I run my steam as excursions. Steam goes with everything, most people I know its just modern stuff. I love doing "power moves" with double stacks! But its really what ever I can get to pull, grain, stacks and mix anything.I have a GS-6 with a N&W auxiliary tender, tool car, power car, and crew sleeper. Along with those I have for my excursions a Milwaukee Road full dome and Hiawatha observation car, GN full dome 2 heavyweight passenger cars, BN ranch car, NP sleeper, UP sleeper, SP business car, some dome and lounge cars I panted up in Montana Daylight scheme... you get the idea its a mix of cars you likely would find on a excursion.
I don't know if its the future of modeling steamers, but it is fun to pick up a random car because you don't have to get for one road or train you just add it to the consist.
My
Of course it is anybodys guess as to what will be 20-50 years out....I think steam will survive as era-specific and I would not assume manufactures will have the same business model they do today. Twenty years ago to publish a book you needed a publisher...today you do it yourself on the internet...Perhaps in the future there will be a library of prototypes accessable that can be custom built on some sort of CNC machine with user selected internals and operating systems....never assume technology will stand still when there is money to be made...
Bob
The problem I have with the "steam will die out because people haven't seen it in real life" arguement is that real steam operation really died out in most of the country in the early 1950's. Assuming you had to be at least 5 or 6 to even remember it, probably 10-12 to understand it, that would mean that the "people who remember steam" would have to be in their 60-'s to 70's. I know a lot of modelers who model steam who are a lot younger than that. That means they DON'T remember steam and are modeling it.
The second thing that people forget is that USRA cars, F units and 40 ft boxcars pretty much were gone by the mid 1970's. That means that anybody who is 35 or older has never seen F units and 40 ft boxcars. Does that mean the 1960's will also fade away? Don't think that's happening.
What I see is that railroads have a fixed start time, the 1830's and the civil war seems to be about the practical limit. So in 1950 there was 90 years of railroad history from which you could choose. Today there is about 140 years of railroad history to model. What is happening is that with more eras to model all the eras get fewer people modeling them as a percentage of all modelers
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
dehusman The problem I have with the "steam will die out because people haven't seen it in real life" arguement is that real steam operation really died out in most of the country in the early 1950's. Assuming you had to be at least 5 or 6 to even remember it, probably 10-12 to understand it, that would mean that the "people who remember steam" would have to be in their 60-'s to 70's. I know a lot of modelers who model steam who are a lot younger than that. That means they DON'T remember steam and are modeling it. The second thing that people forget is that USRA cars, F units and 40 ft boxcars pretty much were gone by the mid 1970's. That means that anybody who is 35 or older has never seen F units and 40 ft boxcars. Does that mean the 1960's will also fade away? Don't think that's happening. What I see is that railroads have a fixed start time, the 1830's and the civil war seems to be about the practical limit. So in 1950 there was 90 years of railroad history from which you could choose. Today there is about 140 years of railroad history to model. What is happening is that with more eras to model all the eras get fewer people modeling them as a percentage of all modelers
When you say that you know "a lot of modelers who model steam who are a lot younger than that", how many? Probably just a few.
What I find amusing is that some people who experience something contemporary cannot imagine it passing or fading away. Just remember that at one time the largest publicly traded company in the world was United States Leather Company. It is no longer with us.
Rich
Alton Junction
25-50 years out, maybe the F-series, the GP's and even the AC's models will be "outdated".
Fifty years from now the mainlines may be electrified "bullet" type loco trains or even all MAGLEVS as the real 1:1 trains then may be!!!
So then, maybe the steam will be relegated to the "collector's series" of those units already built, but maybe not. There may be a few small specialist model steam loco makers...
Then again, they are looking into whether 1:1 steam can be brought back, "increase its efficiency" and fire it with a better "non-polluting fuel" and make IT work better than the current diesel-electrics!
We Don't know what the future will hold.
I really thoroughly enjoy 1:1 steam, I like the movement of its working parts visible on the outside. I like the siderods and air pumps. I enjoy the thumps and noises of the airpumps.I LOVE the Chuff! You don't find all that with the diesels...you just get a constant rumble {loud or louder} and hiss.
If you look around, there aren't too many buggy makers, though if you searched hard enough, or sought out Amish communities, you might find someone who still makes buggies for horses like those of the 1800's days before cars. But they aren't sold on every street corner.
So no, steam may not disappear, steam may live on, but it will decrease as the new 1:1s take over the model industry..if IT in fact survives? I think so.
Ultimately, Whatever the manufacturer makes and whatever that sells for them to make money, will dictate more likely what will be on the "virtual shelves of virtual hobby shops" of the future.
ANd in 50 years I will most very likely be dead and won't care.
-G .
Just my thoughts, ideas, opinions and experiences. Others may vary.
HO and N Scale.
After long and careful thought, they have convinced me. I have come to the conclusion that they are right. The aliens did it.
richhotrain When you say that you know "a lot of modelers who model steam who are a lot younger than that", how many? Probably just a few. What I find amusing is that some people who experience something contemporary cannot imagine it passing or fading away. Just remember that at one time the largest publicly traded company in the world was United States Leather Company. It is no longer with us. Rich
Your argument that when the people who've experienced something die off, it will fade away just doesn't hold water. Look at all the people reenacting the civil war, or the Renaissance for that matter. Do you think any of those guys were around back then? I fly RC airplanes, and WWI & WWII war planes are more popular now than ever. I don't see too many 90 year old men at the flying fields.
People will always want to recreate history. It's in our nature. Sure, the numbers will dwindle as time goes on, but there will always be that niche.
I used to play around in the "live steam" part of the hobby since the age of 14.......
I also had spent 8 months at the Strasburg RR.......
Steam is a P I T A to work on .....maintain, operate, repair, etc. In any scale or gauge.
Yeah.......its on the way out.
Dennis Blank Jr.
CEO,COO,CFO,CMO,Bossman,Slavedriver,Engineer,Trackforeman,Grunt. Birdsboro & Reading Railroad
dehusman The second thing that people forget is that USRA cars, F units and 40 ft boxcars pretty much were gone by the mid 1970's. That means that anybody who is 35 or older has never seen F units and 40 ft boxcars.
The second thing that people forget is that USRA cars, F units and 40 ft boxcars pretty much were gone by the mid 1970's. That means that anybody who is 35 or older has never seen F units and 40 ft boxcars.
There's exceptions to everything. I've seen operational F7s in mainline freight service and I'm 30. A few even survived until around 2002, as drones on ore docks in Ohio.
I also remember seeing a few 40' boxcars with BUY WAR BONDS on the side in the late 80s.
onequiknova People will always want to recreate history. It's in our nature. Sure, the numbers will dwindle as time goes on, but there will always be that niche.
That is my point, every era is a niche, just some niches are larger than others. The niches may start out larger and then become smaller as other niches siphon off people until it reaches the point where people are modeling it because they LIKE the era.
For example I am in my mid fifties (I never saw a steam engine in revenue service) but I model the 1900 era. Why? Because I like it.
Of the 20 or so modelers in the area that actively model and operate, of the ones that operate steam, none are in there 70's.
UP 4-12-2 ... If it didn't sell they wouldn't be making steam power. It sells (check out MB Klein's current inventory--the steam is virtually cleaned out right now--and it's not that they didn't have much in stock, because they had plenty just recently--the stuff actually sells). ... John
...
There is little inventory because so little steam has been released in the past year. What has been released has limited appeal, or would merely duplicate what collectors/users have cobbled together in the past five years or so, and few of us are willing to do that.
Crandell
About the niches, I think few of us would argue that they tend to hang on. However, you can't conclude that today's steam market is a niche the way re-enacting Civil War events in period costumes is a niche. Which has the real 'market' with manufactured goods exchanged for money? I think those of us who are arguing about the demise of model steam are saying that there won't be a market to speak of in 40-50 years once fewer live-steam engines are running and many times fewer men (mostly) are still alive who can describe what their experience with steam was/is. How big is the Model T and era market? A walk through Wal Mart of your local hobby shop should help you with that answer.
Interesting opinions on the demise of model steam locomotives, although I don´t share some of the views.
Steam makes our hobby much more appealing, also to youngsters, than those box-like and look-alike modern Diesels. I understand that quite a number of folks in here complain about the industry not releasing the "right" locomotive in the market and only looking at marketing those landmark steamers, like the Big Boy etc. We should not forget that it is those locomotives which draw the attention of non-hobbyists. Who knows, one or two may join us in our quest to re-enact a little bit our our heritage.
Steam is dead - long live steam!
Crandell,I know of one shop that has one steam locomotive in stock and that was due to a cancellation..According to the owner steam locomotives won't sell locally because they are to expensive.
That may be true enough at full MSRP but,some Spectrum steamers sells for around $100.00 or less if one cares to shop around on e-Bay and the internet.
In this computer age one can't get a real handle on the steam market unless he can get hold of HO steam locomotive marketing information and as we know that is confidential information.
Apparently Bachmann sees a market for their steamers.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
My point about the Civil war recreations, was to point out that generations later, people are still interested in something that they weren't around to experience. I think it's a valid point.
The model steam market surely won't be the same in 40 or 50 years, but there will still be a demand for steam. Maybe more along the line of small brass runs instead of mass produced models, but there will still be a demand. Who knows what the future will bring. Maybe by then, we'll be able to download blueprints from the internet and "print" a high quality model at home.
selector UP 4-12-2: ... If it didn't sell they wouldn't be making steam power. It sells (check out MB Klein's current inventory--the steam is virtually cleaned out right now--and it's not that they didn't have much in stock, because they had plenty just recently--the stuff actually sells). ... John There is little inventory because so little steam has been released in the past year. What has been released has limited appeal, or would merely duplicate what collectors/users have cobbled together in the past five years or so, and few of us are willing to do that. Crandell
UP 4-12-2: ... If it didn't sell they wouldn't be making steam power. It sells (check out MB Klein's current inventory--the steam is virtually cleaned out right now--and it's not that they didn't have much in stock, because they had plenty just recently--the stuff actually sells). ... John
Crandell,
I'm not sure were to start here, but I do agree with John on this. You seem to have that short term kind of thinking on this that supports the limited run, collector, consumerisum thinking that suugests that unless manufcturers provide a steady stream of "NEW" items, interest in the hobby, or steam locos will somehow die?
I would suggest just the opposite.
Making products constantly available - or at least re-issuing them on a regular basis, keeps the interest of new people fueled becasue there is a sense that they will be able to aquire the models they want. And that those who do not get one (or 6) the first time will be able to get more later.
If new hobbiests, young or old, feel like they "missed" those items that interest them most, that is bad for the hobby. It is especially bad for those that would move into more "serious" modeling activities were product selection is based on matching a set layout theme and era, rather than just collecting and running trains.
Based on my years in the hobby and selling model trains, those hobbiests with the more serious interests and goals, stay with the hobby longer, buy more stuff over their lifetimes, and thereby spend more money.
Even in todays market conditions, or maybe because of them, re-issuing previously made models is good business.
F7's and USRA 2-8-2 continue to sell - so do Big Boy's and PRR K4's.
Sure I would like to see some stuff that has not been made, but not at the expense of loosing basic "commodity" models that each new generation of models is likely to want.
When I sold MATCO tools, their market research showed that the average auto mechanic only works with his tools for 7 years, then moves up or out of the trade. Few sell their tools. You do the math.
I suggest this hobby in not much different in that even those who loose interest seldom sell off their models. And regardless of how much used stuff is out there, many people like myself don't/won't buy much used - no matter its condition or quality.
I will repeat my earlier thought - this is not about steam or diesel or young or old. Some people CHOOSE HISTORY, some people are bored to tears by history and model TODAY. And it will always be that way.
Sheldon
Though there are people who come in and say they were born after steam was gone from the rails yet still model it, that isn't a statistic, it's just a voice or few voices which don't suddenly make steam a popular item.
Probably a more useful indicator of whether the claim that modeling steam is fading out of the hobby are metrics, numbers which tell the story, not forum posts. I imagine the manufacturers can tell you alot more telling information here.
It does seem logical that as the generations which lived to see steam operating with their own eye's are dying out there will be fewer people modeling steam. I realize there are a few folks who were born after steam was gone from mainline service, but they logically are a small minority. In general, people model what they see/saw during their teens and twenties etc... those formative years. It's certainly true for me although I know personally of a few folks who are of similar age but backdated to steam/diesel transition. In my case, I too have backdated my interests, somewhat to my teen and child hood years with the help of some DVD's and books which have given me a window into the years of the 1960's and 1970's.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
Back in maybe the late 1970's Model Railroader did a survey of MR readers or subscribers and as I recall came out with a result that the average age of their readers was about 38, and the most commonly modeled era was the 1950's, which they noted meant most modelers were modeling what was going on in their teen years. They wondered if that trend would continue, or if it was just that so many people liked modeling the transition era.
I suspect the answer is kind of "yes" to both. There are always going to be some people who model "today", some people who model things they saw in their youth, and some who model things they're too young to have seen (but wish they had). Therefore I imagine there will always be people modeling the steam or transition eras, but it's numbers may become smaller over time, just as I'm sure the number of people modeling 1900 has gone down as we get further away from that time.
"In general, people model what they see/saw during their teens and twenties etc... those formative years."
Respectfully I would ask how you know this to be true of all, or even most, individuals?
Because that is how you feel? Guess what some of us are different.
As as been pointed out is this discussion by myself and others, things like an interest in WWI or the Civil War or other earlier history seem to be very strong dispite the fact that every one who experianced them as young adults are long gone.
Some types of people just get hooked on history. I could go into some deeper thoughts on personally types, but this is likely not the place.
Fact is people that do not have that strong interest in history, DO DEFINE a lot about their lives based on their teen and young adult years.
But peole who are into history see the world as a place much bigger than their own experiances, and tend to see the world as more "timeless".
It is my personal view that human nature is a constant in the universe, both the good and the bad of it. And that it shifts left or right, but never changes much. People 100 years ago, or 500 years ago, were just as smart, just insightfull, just as "inlightened" as we think we are today. Personally I think Jefferson, Hamilton and Adam Smith were likely smarter than all of academia today on matters of human nature.
I grew up in the late 60's and early 70's - that is the LAST era I would ever consider modeling.
I model the early 50's - 4-5 years before I was born. My next two railroad eras of interest are the 1920's and the Civil War.
The newest model loco I own in term of its prototype - two SD9's - newly delivered from LaGrande.
My other interests in HISTORY - Architecture, I live in a 1901 Queen Anne - not a 70's rancher, My favorite cars are the '58 Impala, '48 Tucker and Model A Fords, not a "69 Camaro. I find the late 1800's to be most interesting in terms of culture and industry.
I can provide a long list of other like minded people my age and younger - I was born in 1957.
---------------------------
I was born in '48 and by the time you was born I was witnessing four things.
1.The last dying gasps Steam locomotives.
2.The coming of the Trucking Industry Interstates.
3.The slow death of the passenger train.
4.Railroad filth and the down hill slide of the railroads in general.
These was far from the so called "glory" years.
One could say by the late 50's the railroad pallbears was put on alert as more and more freight was lost to trucks.
BRAKIE I can provide a long list of other like minded people my age and younger - I was born in 1957. Sheldon --------------------------- I was born in '48 and by the time you was born I was witnessing four things. 1.The last dying gasps Steam locomotives. 2.The coming of the Trucking Industry Interstates. 3.The slow death of the passenger train. 4.Railroad filth and the down hill slide of the railroads in general. These was far from the so called "glory" years. One could say by the late 50's the railroad pallbears was put on alert as more and more freight was lost to trucks.
A number of those very same facts are why I have no interest in modeling the 60's or 70's.
In the absence of confidential information regarding actual sales, which the manufacturers will not release, and for which I have been flamed elsewhere online for giving away bits and pieces of that information when it has been passed along to me, about the only thing we can do to get any kind of gauge regarding actual sales is to watch the MB Klein website (from the day an item shows up when the initial quantity is received until they are gone). I personally am very thankful, as a frequent paying customer, that they have the inventory online with real time updates for the whole world to see. Sometimes I miss out on items because I can't get the money in time before the last example sells out, but sometimes I am able to get the last one--sometimes I've had to wait and monitor the declining inventory until I had the cash available to buy something...Just this week I bought the last Intermountain Lehigh Valley F-7 they had and the last Athearn/Roundhouse CN grey boiler 2-6-0.
Crandell--I'm sorry to say it appears you may be incorrect regarding "so little steam released" in the past year.
They sold through their entire inventory of some steamers, typically at least 6 of each road number if not 12 or more, and just received some more of each. They've sold several dozens of EM-1's and 2-6-6-2's...
Respectfully submitted--
These are personal observations only. First off, I am a child of the 60's and grew up in England. I did get to see the end of steam. I have 2 sons, 12 and 15 years of age. We run and enjoy several steam loco models from both the US and the UK. My 2 boys save up their own money and purchase their own trains. Neither of them has ever purchased a steamer. They want SD70Ace, hi-speed passenger trains and things like that. Our layout is transition era, and so I resisted their desires for the longest of times, but eventually relented and now they each have their own rosters of locos that are modern.
You may have seen me post videos from the huge K-10 layout, where kids get to run trains each month. Many of them bring their own locomotives. The only steam that the kids bring tends to be Thomas and friends. This is typical of what the kids like to run. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=niKK-ZuQ_XA&feature=plcp http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4rBOEvsmMQ&feature=plcp
Now, don't get me wrong, when a steam locomotive is running, you do hear oohs and aahs, especially if it is iconic big steam.
I just went upstairs and asked the boys if they would spend any of their own money on a steam train, both answered "No!" without hesitation. The younger one then modified his answer to say "It depends, perhaps a Challenger or Big Boy"
Of course their will be exceptions to any rule, but I do get the sense that as time goes on, there will be new young modellers that not only have not seen steam themselves, but don't even know anyone that has seen a steam engine. Even their grandfathers won't have seen one.
Simon Modelling CB&Q and Wabash See my slowly evolving layout on my picturetrail site http://www.picturetrail.com/simontrains and our videos at http://www.youtube.com/user/MrCrispybake?feature=mhum