What's NOT Made in China?

[cisco1]

Started to write a short contribution and suddenly had two pages! Yes, support those who have the guts and determination to keep producing goods here at home. No, don't get caught up in the political smoke screen from Washington and the media. The big money runs these two and hides what they don't want us to see. Yes, write those companies who are moving jobs out of this country. Phone them if possible too. Make your presence known at political rallies,etc. Get involved. It's not just for our future but our childrens' too. Finally, has anyone considered the cooperative model for business?
It works because everyone from the management to the workers to the consumers gets a piece of the pie. All profits after expenses are divided among the members according to years of membership and amount of product consumed. Anyone want to start a new manufacturing plant here? I'll contribute to the cause. It may not be in the thousands of dollars but I wonder what 50 or 100 of us could do? Probably ANYTHING we put our minds to! Chris

[Roadtrp]

[

QUOTE: Originally posted by dkelly

I'm assuming that Christopher has problems with Mexico, South America and SE Asia because of the standard of living that most factory workers have there as opposed to those in Canada, Australia, England Germany or Italy.

I think you have probably correctly predicted Christopher's point of view.

I guess where I think differently is that if we allow the 'third world' nations to progress, someday ALL world trading partners will have a standard of living more like that in the U.S. We will approach the point where every nation's products are truly competitive with every other nation's products on a global scale. This will benefit everyone economically, and have one HUGE additional advantage:

How many people owning their own home, having 2 Color TV's (one large screen) and two fairly new vehicles in the garage will want to be a suicide bomber?

Absolutely Zero!! The ultimate way to defeat terrorism is to make life decent enough that no one anywhere would consider a suicidal terrorist act.

[Anonymous]

I'm assuming that Christopher has problems with Mexico, South America and SE Asia because of the standard of living that most factory workers have there as opposed to those in Canada, Australia, England Germany or Italy. Of course I hate to think what the cost of a Atlas/Kato/Proto engine would be if it were made in a factory in England!

The manufacturers are going to respond to what their customers want. As long as they think they can make more profit by manufacturing higher detailed items in low wage countries, that is what they are going to do. Have everyone that is buying these things switch over and purchase the same amount of product from Athearn (blue box), MDC, detail associates etc. then the manufacturers would adjust accordingly.

[nkpltrr]

It is becoming harder to find items not made or assembled in China. China is making tons of money off us and then they have the audacity to hold one of our planes captive and then return it only after they stripped it clean of the technology. What did America do? Nothing but apologize to China for spying on them. ? That is why I avoid buying items made in China. However, unless you live in a cave and cook on a wood fire, you will eventually have to buy a made in china item. It is sad that our USA companies have gone to overseas for manufacturing and left us to be buyers. Someday the money will run dry and there will be no buyers because we will have no jobs to earn money.

[Roadtrp]

QUOTE: Originally posted by cjm89

I don't mind buying things made in Canada, Australia, England, Germany, or Italy, it's Mexico, South America, and SE Asia that I have problems with.

Why?

[Anonymous]

I don't mind buying things made in Canada, Australia, England, Germany, or Italy, it's Mexico, South America, and SE Asia that I have problems with.

[DSchmitt]

QUOTE: Originally posted by M636C
.............. The US will have to concentrate on the things it does better than the rest of the world. The government may have to assist those industries that need to change, and encourage the new industries for the new era (but you will find that this is happening, regardless of the political color of the day). But we must not idolise the past. It never was that good (except in model form).

Peter

Yes, and trying to prevent change leads eventually to economic ruin.

[Anonymous]

It's interesting and confusing at the same time. On another topic I complained about the apparent going away of the Athearn Blue Box kits (made in America). I think the overwhelming response was that the RTR (which this thread identifies as being made in China - I have no way to check this out) was a better deal and a step forward. Which is it?

An earlier post said that we should only buy American products and this will get the attention of manufacturers. Unfortunately the vast number of American consumers, including model railroaders, aren't going to do that. We, as a country and as model railroader (as a whole) have become people wanting instant gratification. When was the last time you saw a significant number of articles in any model railroading mag that talks about starting with a 30.00 engine (Athearn blue box - made in America), adding 30.00 of detail parts (made in America) and a couple hours of work to get a smooth running well detailed engine? People are more into buying 10 RTR Kato or RTR Athearn engines.

I for one would prefer buying a couple of dozen blue box hoppers and over time increasing their level of detail than purchasing a couple of dozen RTR (higher price and not made in the US). Unfortunately, the majority of my fellow model rails don't think that way.

[M636C]

Some years ago, I visited a number of the model factories in Hong Kong (then still a British colony) and one in China. In China, the workers were generally married women, working to earn money for basic home appliances, refrigerators and washing machines, and colour television sets. Most of them were from poor rural areas, and worked for a couple of years to get those things most Americans would regard as neccessities, then returned to their home areas. This might not still be the case, but these people are not the generals who ordered the Tien An Men massacre. These are more likely to be the victims of a government that isn't even really Communist any more, if it ever was. Some of the women brought their younger children to work, because there were no child minding centres or Pre-schools to send them to. The factory I visited didn't even have a paved road to it. It was in the middle of a very recently converted rice paddy. These people are working hard for not much money. They aren't trying to hurt anyone in America, they are just trying to earn a living. But China is developing, just as America did. By now, I'm sure the workers are being paid more and enjoying better conditions. More of the roads are paved, and maybe they are saving for their first automobile. When I visited, the design and toolmaking was done in Hong Kong, where the workers were better educated, at least partly as a result of the British having guided the education system. Hong Kong has a sort of elected government, not truly democratic, but there is an elected opposition, something they don't have in Beijing yet. The Chinese will progress toward the conditions in the USA. I have a Chinese TV station on my cable service, and there are commercials for the usual things, and US Movies are shown, with dubbed dialog. Until then, the economic rationale of comparative advantage will work. The Chinese will do jobs that Americans won't do, because they are willing to work for lower wages because their expectations are lower and their expenses less. But the Chinese can't do the advanced engineering that can be done in the USA. They couldn't build a spacecraft to test the Solar wind, or get it back to Earth (although maybe they could have supplied a battery that would have released the parachute). The US will have to concentrate on the things it does better than the rest of the world. The government may have to assist those industries that need to change, and encourage the new industries for the new era (but you will find that this is happening, regardless of the political color of the day). But we must not idolise the past. It never was that good (except in model form).

Peter

[Anonymous]

Several companies do manufacture items "MADE IN THE USA" like Stewart or Bowser. However, many business have taken business to CHINA for plastic injection, assembly etc due to affordability. Quality control is important to the many manufactures who are competing in this tough market of model railroading. Customers demanding everything to be ready to roll and manufacturing one of every engine ever made painted in every road name only to purchase at below wholesale. Rivarossi originally made in Italy made major improvements on their locomotives drive train and weighting only after sending the manufacturing over to CHINA in 2001. Nevertheless, the cost of change, low profit margins and recent purchase of ARNOLD N scale cause bankrupcy even with lower manufacturing cost. LIMA since purchased Rivarossi/Arnold and are making a better product today than 10 years ago. The newcomer " Broadway Limited" made in South Korea is doing a superb job of making highly detail locomotives with full sound in both DC and DCC modes that is the envy to nearly every other manufacture trying to copy the operation of both DC and DCC modes with full sound quality. Many parts still are made in China to keep cost down, profits high while providing wonderful trains that have received superb reviews. Other manufactures such as MEHANO imported as IHC International Hobby Corporation is made in Slovenia. Small custom handcrafted locomtives can be found made across the United States too like Ron LaFever in Paris, Texas who builds customs CLIMAX locomotives that out perform those manufactured even in Brass. http://www.lafeverclimax.com/ From Small Businesses to large manufactures and importers, there surely is a train for you.

The United States has lost a great deal of manufacturing overseas on nearly every product ever produced on our soil. My VOLVO has parts made in the USA and Sweden. Radio in Japan, tires from South America. We could cover issues like American Labor Unions, Federal Trade Agreements, Economics and the many concerns to supporting another country's economy. Often too, the American Copy being manufacture else where is done to better spec's improving the original product. And truly just as often we can purchase an item that surely should be labeled "WORTHLESS" regardless of where it was made. Foriegn manufacturing for American business is not something new either. During the 1930's the US shipped tons of scrap steel to Japan which in turn made items for the United States. Today, scrap recycled metals are crossing into Mexico via TFM "TEX-MEX" only to be turned into products for manufactures in the United States. such as the Worlds largest Off Shore Oil Rig, MADE IN TEXAS:

Although the important issue is enjoying model railroading. The Quality time that you will enjoy with your son's and your friends as you build your collection and layout. I would recommend reviewing http://www.greatesthobby.com/ as a start and then working with your local hobby store or small on line business that can afford the time and concern to your issues. World economics is always trading off and manufacturing parts and supplies have moved from Austria, to Yugoslavia, to Japan and currently a great deal to CHINA. However, the enjoyment of that special locomotive with it's light brightly seen remains fasinating and exciting regardless of where the parts started out. Often the drawings and design began with an American or German Engineer with a wonderful idea that made DREAMS COME TRUE for the many of us know as Model railroaders.

[Bikerdad]

I'd like to point out that those who are proud they have 401Ks yet bitching about greedy CEOs and stockholders are complaining about themselves!

There's lots of stuff not Made In China, just as there's lots of stuff that is. China lost 3 times as many manufacturing jobs as we did during the 1990s! Yeah, its amazing what updating technologies can do.

China is no longer truly a Communist country. It would be far more accurate to describe them as reverting to the ancient imperial mandarin society. Yes, it is repressive, yes, the human rights abuses are legion, and yes, I avoid buying Chinese products when I can. Its a gamble right now, will the awakening desires for freedom and wealth of the Chinese people move quickly enough to stave off the risk of their burgeoning economic power? I think it will...

Those who want to protect jobs, get a grip. Do you know WHY the American candy industry is disappearing, moving to Canada? Because we've been protecting the sugar producers. As a result, sugar in America costs almost twice the world market price. Gee, what's a CEO who's responsibility is to the shareholders to do? Pay twice as much for raw materials as the guy in Toronto?

Globalization is, on the whole, a good thing. Yes, there are problems, but then, industrialization had its problems as well.

[Roadtrp]

QUOTE: Originally posted by ironmine


I guess we could all just work for the government.

Jim

Jim,

I don't think you would like that much better. I work for a state supported university. Because of state budget deficits the university appropriation has been savagely cut over the past few years. Hundreds of jobs were eliminated. We went two years without any salary increase. Our health insurance contribution more than doubled. This past June we finally got a raise. It was a whopping 2%. They increased our parking expense and our insurance costs far more than they increased our salary.

My point?

Things are tough right now in ALL sectors of employment. The business cycle is at a down point now, but I am hopeful it will recover. I personally think foreign trade is not to blame for all our economic woes, but you are certainly entitled to your opinion. I worry about how tax reductions and war expenditures have created massive budget deficits, but I don't want to get into a political discussion about that.

Economic times change, and we have to roll with the punches the best we can. I still would far rather be in the U.S. than any other country on earth.

P.S. I'm not retired, and I don't have an MBA.

[;)]

[Anonymous]

Hello Andre

No, I don't blame China for trying to make a quality product. I blame China for being a Communist hell hole, for using its citizens (including children) as slave labor, for not caring about becoming a good member of the world community, for selling weapons systems and dangerous technologies to anyone that wants them, for all the counterfeiting of the world's products that they do. These things, and others. Don't confuse Japan, or South Korea, with China.

I agree with you concerning MBA's.

Like you, I have a 401k, and have tried to save as much as possible. But I read a couple of comments that seemed to come from some people that worked for the ATT's all their life and recieved that big pension with health benefits, and want to tell the rest of us that the world is still peachy. They are out of touch and tick me off. (Is ATT still even in business?, barely.)

Like you, a job that I worked at for 27 years is gone. Supplied and maintained industrial equipment. Went out of business because there is such less demand for industrial equipment. My job before that, in a machine shop, also went out of business for lack of work. I started my own little business ... I have no health insurance. I wish I could just take it easy like you, but I have kids that I would like to put through college. What's one year at a state university this September? 25k.

My oldest son enters college in 2 years. I was so pleased with his interest in mechanical engineering. But if all our manufacturing will be in China, just how many ME's do we need, I sometimes wonder.

I guess we could all just work for the government.

Jim

[d4fal]

I've noticed the proliferation of "Made in China" lately, too. As a rule, I buy local before I even consider made in some far off land. It keeps jobs at home, employing our own neighbors and all that.

I do have a problem with buying anything made in any Asian country. I know that this could be considered racist, but these countries by far do have a bad reputation for civil rights abuses, and their track record does not show that things will improve anytime soon. "Made in Canada or USA" covers just about anything I ever want to buy, if I can't get it within a few miles of my home, that is.

[andrechapelon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by ironmine

I was watching some news program on tv the other day, I don't remember which one. They were in China, interviewing the plant manager of an automobile assembly plant.

The man admitted that thier vehicles are of such poor quality, that they could never be sold in America. He went on to say that they are working hard to correct the quality issues, and he hopes that within 10 years they will have a quality product for export to western nations.

Any of you MBA types or those retirees with your fat ATT pensions have any comments?

Jim

This is precisely the same process that Japan went through in the late 50's/early 60's. One of the ironic things about this is that the Japanese learned their quality lessons from W. Edwards Deming, an American. In fact, Deming is revered among Japanese industrialists. If the Chinese learn their quality lesson from the Japanese, they will have had good teachers. You going to blame the Chinese for trying to put out a quality product ?

In contrast, we created a bunch of scum-sucking, bean counting, MBA financial types who never have and never will understand anything about manufacturing. These types still rule.

Incidentally, I don't have a fat a-- pension. I have a 401k. It's there because I spent LESS than I made during my working life and saved the rest.

P.S. I was laid off from my job. The thing that kept THAT from hurting is that I spent LESS than I made during my working life and saved the rest. I haven't had a paycheck in 3 years. I have no intention of looking for anything other than a seasonal part time job.

Andre

[Anonymous]

I was watching some news program on tv the other day, I don't remember which one. They were in China, interviewing the plant manager of an automobile assembly plant.

The man admitted that thier vehicles are of such poor quality, that they could never be sold in America. He went on to say that they are working hard to correct the quality issues, and he hopes that within 10 years they will have a quality product for export to western nations.

Any of you MBA types or those retirees with your fat ATT pensions have any comments?

Jim

[Anonymous]

A talk radio station here in Detroit had a couple of the on-air personalities bitching about the reduction of manpower by using automated answering systems instead of a real live person answering the phone. They don't think it is right for someone to save time, money, and labor, if they can. When they got to the commercial break, the first commercial was one of the personalities talking about the underground sprinkler system with rain sensor and automatic fertilizing capabilities. I thought how ironic, he just did for himself what these corporations are doing-cut out the labor by going to automation. People just don't think, do they!!

[andrechapelon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Roadtrp
[brLet's also look at what life was like then, what our expectations were.

The average home was about 900 square feet. Now the average for new homes is over 2000 square feet. People then felt lucky if they had ONE color television. Now everyone has several. It used to be routine to have 2-3 children share one bedroom. Now it seems almost a God-given right that every child has his/her own room. A two car family was a rarity, a three car family almost unheard of. Now two cars is the standard and three cars is not uncommon. I could go on and on, but I think you get my drift.

Dare we mention that most cars were sold with rubber mats on the floor instead of W/W carpeting. Radios (AM) were optional equipment. Automatic transmissions were optional equipment, not standard. For that matter, until about the mid 1960's, heaters were optional. Air conditioning was a luxury reserved for the few who were willing and had the money to spring for it. Cruise control and intermittent wipers were unheard of and almost nobody except those in the luxury car market had power windows. There were no remote keyless entry systems and there were basically 4 models - 2 door sedan, 2 door convertible, 4 door sedan and station wagon. A car was considered well equipped if it had a radio, a heater and white sidewall tires (thank God those died a peaceful death).

Andre

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Roadtrp

<<Sure we may have more people employed today but that is because the average person is working more than one job. Just thing back when this country was an industrial super power, only one person had to work, the wife could stay home, or the husband could, now both have to work to try and make ends meet. >>

You're thinking of a dream world. First of all, the conditions you are talking about only existed in this country from about the end of WWII to the mid 60's. There is no way that life has always been like that in this country.

Let's also look at what life was like then, what our expectations were.

The average home was about 900 square feet. Now the average for new homes is over 2000 square feet. People then felt lucky if they had ONE color television. Now everyone has several. It used to be routine to have 2-3 children share one bedroom. Now it seems almost a God-given right that every child has his/her own room. A two car family was a rarity, a three car family almost unheard of. Now two cars is the standard and three cars is not uncommon. I could go on and on, but I think you get my drift.

The reason so many families have two wage earners is because they want a higher living standard than what we had in the 50's. Is that a good choice? I'm not sure that it always is, but it is everyone's right to decide for themselves.

Does this country have some economic problems? Yes, I agree that it does. The distribution of wealth in this country is skewing more and more towards the top 10%. I believe we need change in tax policies to limit the deductibility of executive compensation. I believe we need more companies with profit-sharing plans for their employees. Stockholders and executives should not be the only ones to profit when a company does well. The men and women who do the work of the company should also share in its success. So yes, I think this country could use some change in its economic policy.

But I also think overall the average American is FAR BETTER off than 50 years ago.

Yes, the wages in this country are all going too much for that rich 10%.

But I believe that globalization has it's BIG disadvantages in the long run, unfortunatly, few companies today see that, while the big CEO's whine about $23 million "not being enough" Heh, most CEOs don't deserve a dime to their name, some (but very few) actually do their job the way it was supposed to be done.

Anyways, globalization has these long-term problems:

Huge tax decreases on the government. First you have many companies paying almost no property taxes now that their plants are overseas, plus those companies have to pay a lot less insurance benefits now, which leaves many services we take for granted without enough money to fully operate. Then the government can't charge those layed-off workers with income tax, and have to pay a LOT of people a $300-$400 unemployment check until they get a job. The government doesn't like to be without money, and this definently doesn't help. (Where do you think the bulk of that multi-billion dollar deficet came from, along with war on terror costs?)

Decreased industrial capacity. The cycle is a never-ending one. First you lay off workers, then our raw-material suppliers get that much less business, then the company also moves it customer support team to India, (And I don't by any means want to talk to someone I can't even understand, let alone cooperate with a country who is just as ornery as the rest of the Middle-East.), So now you're left with people unemployes in the industrial and telecommunications sectors. That leaves a lot of [censored] off people around, and the list just keeps getting bigger every day. If the government won't serve to the majority of the people in America who are already mad in this country, they're crazy. (of course, anyone could have told you they're crazy.[:(!])

But I wouldn't be so passive about globalization. Fight aganst it, get other people against it, get yourself and others buying as many American-made products as possible, and refuse to do any business with companies who move their suppor groups to India. If the majority of the people start doing this in AMerica, those businesses who aren't very loving of the country that let's them even exist won't have much business, will they? And after all that, send this company a letter, tell everyone you know to send them letters saying you will refuse and encourage others to refuse to buy their products because they're made in China, Mexico, etc. Now of couse non of this would do any good unless you had about 300,000+++ other people doing the same thing, but it's a start.

China can go to [censored] for all I care because I am going to refuse to buy anything made by Black & Decker, Wal-Mart, Irwin, and other worthless companies, and I'm going to get as many other people as possible to do the same. In fact if you're reading this I'd consider it. Those of us with kids or grandkids need to give them something in the future, preferably nothing from China, India, or Mexico.


And note that i don't mind trade with our friends in the world like Germany, England, Canada, or Australia! If it's made by people getting the same treatment and wages as American workers, and there is a American-made alternative, that's what trade should be limited to!

[Roadtrp]

<<Sure we may have more people employed today but that is because the average person is working more than one job. Just thing back when this country was an industrial super power, only one person had to work, the wife could stay home, or the husband could, now both have to work to try and make ends meet. >>

You're thinking of a dream world. First of all, the conditions you are talking about only existed in this country from about the end of WWII to the mid 60's. There is no way that life has always been like that in this country.

Let's also look at what life was like then, what our expectations were.

The average home was about 900 square feet. Now the average for new homes is over 2000 square feet. People then felt lucky if they had ONE color television. Now everyone has several. It used to be routine to have 2-3 children share one bedroom. Now it seems almost a God-given right that every child has his/her own room. A two car family was a rarity, a three car family almost unheard of. Now two cars is the standard and three cars is not uncommon. I could go on and on, but I think you get my drift.

The reason so many families have two wage earners is because they want a higher living standard than what we had in the 50's. Is that a good choice? I'm not sure that it always is, but it is everyone's right to decide for themselves.

Does this country have some economic problems? Yes, I agree that it does. The distribution of wealth in this country is skewing more and more towards the top 10%. I believe we need change in tax policies to limit the deductibility of executive compensation. I believe we need more companies with profit-sharing plans for their employees. Stockholders and executives should not be the only ones to profit when a company does well. The men and women who do the work of the company should also share in its success. So yes, I think this country could use some change in its economic policy.

But I also think overall the average American is FAR BETTER off than 50 years ago.

[Anonymous]

Let's see...I have 2 G&L guitars, 2 Fender guitars, 1 Gibson and 1 Washburn guitar, all U.S. made. They do cost more, but they're worth every penny. Couldn't buy any today, though I'd love to. All were bought before outsourcing took my wifes' position (software eng). A lot of focus on "labor costs", no focus on the bloated execs salaries. The up side, she used to pay $20+k income tax on her salary, now she pays $0. Multiply by several million unemployed, for the forseeable future. Maybe that will get someone's attention someday.

smyers

[darth9x9]

Hey, I wasn't made in China!!!

BC

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by DMIR230

QUOTE: Originally posted by dougal

This is an interesting topic, to keep it rail rail related, I wonder when GE and or EMD move to China?

GE already has moved some if not all of the engineering of the locomotive division to India. So the ball is already moving.

That makes me just plain sick!!!!![:(!][:(!][:(!][V][V]

Alco and Baldwin, even Lima, I wi***hey were still here, still practicing 1940's business trends, which BTW were a heck of a lot better than business practices today.

am getting close to NEVER even buying a foreign made model locomotive, which is as far as I can see the only thing you cannot usually buy that's USA-made for a layout.
In fact, if I could build my own, or if Bowser or Stewart came out with RTR steam, I would never care to buy another Chinese-made engine again!![:(!][:(!][:(!]

The more I see the word China, or outsourcing, or foreign-made, the madder I get...

And BTW, yes jobs are increasing, but those polls also say the middle-class standard of living as well as wages are decrasing!! Us Middle-class people are the ones who really keep America running, yet this is what America allows our employers to do.

[the-big-blow]

My friend purchased an item that was supposed to made here locally. Much to his surprise the item was made, you guessed it, China. We talked to for some time over dinner and we agree that all what generations passed fought against, child labor, poor working conditions, prisoners as workers are all being practiced with total impunity in China and India. Now I don't know for certain EVERY factory is treating its workers but some time back there was a National Geographic article on China and I was saddened how pollution, exploitation are running rampant.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by simon1966

QUOTE:
Look at the prosperity of once-industrial centers, like Chicago, St. Louis, Pittsburg, and others; then compare that with what they were like 60-50 years ago!!

Chicago is booming, gowing like crazy and is full of high tech and service orientated companies. St. Louis has undergone significant urban renewal in the down town and is also the home to high tech, biotech and is working hard to attract more of these types of business. I have friends in Pittsburgh that tell me that this city is finally starting to break away from independance on the old industries. I suspect that all 3 of these cities are significantly better off today than 60 years ago.

Industries ebb and flow. Jobs are created in new fields.

In 1920, my wife's grandfather moved to the USA from Croatia to work the mines of central Illinois. He died in the mines, crushed between coal cars down the shaft. This industry basically does not exist in central Illinois. Better coal is produced more efficiently in other parts of the USA and the World and other power sources have gained greater prominence. Decended from this one poor imigrant there are now 21 American families working in the following industries:

Chiropractor x2
High tech medical sales
Office furniture supply
State benefits department
Tree farming
US Airforce civil contractor repairing landing gear
Insurance underwriter
Software developer
Auto sales
Etc.

I guarantee that everyone of the decendents is significantly better off, working in jobs that did not exist 50 years ago.

Industries die, strong economies like the USA, replace these older industries with better paying higher tech jobs.

The US economy employs many more people today than 50 years ago.

Ok they have more jobs but what are they paying? Is the pay equal to what say a Pittsburgh steelmill working is/was making? Better paying?? no they are not, and guess what high tech jobs are on their way out the door to India, don't be fooled. As I said before, I work for a construction contractor that does allot of work with GE, GE brings in people from India they pay for their house, schooling, car, everything and then they train here, then send them and all of there equipment back to India. Your so called high tech jobs are leaving as well, the blue collar jobs were just the beginning of the trend. Now that 99% of our industry is gone forever, now they are moving the so called high tech jobs out.

Now service jobs, come on, how many coffee shops do we need in the US? Sure cities are building but how many buildings are full? It would surprise you if you knew. Also service jobs do not pay like the industrial jobs used to.

As you said that you suspect, which is true you are doing the suspecting, but go to Pittsburgh or Homestead or McKeesport, or how about Bethlehem PA or Detroit? I have been in those towns, Pittsburgh is a hurting, Homestead is a ghost town McKeesport is pretty empty and so is Bethlehem. I am sure that the people living in those towns would like to have their steel mills back and other cities would like to have their big industrial plants back. Just think of the tax money that those mills brought into a town or city. Those cities are hurting for money cause the mills and plants are gone forever.


Sure we may have more people employed today but that is because the average person is working more than one job. Just thing back when this country was an industrial super power, only one person had to work, the wife could stay home, or the husband could, now both have to work to try and make ends meet.

All I can say is I hope that we never have a war against us, cause we will be screwed!!!!

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dougal

This is an interesting topic, to keep it rail rail related, I wonder when GE and or EMD move to China?

GE already has moved some if not all of the engineering of the locomotive division to India. So the ball is already moving.

[simon1966]

Ray, I stand corrected as noted, but the point I was trying to make is that coal mining in Central Illinois is by no means the employer that it was. The area NE of St. Louis that my wife's grandfather worked had over 60 mines. Today there is 1.

[orsonroy]

QUOTE: Originally posted by simon1966
This industry basically does not exist in central Illinois. Better coal is produced more efficiently in other parts of the USA and the World and other power sources have gained greater prominence.

Actually, nothing of the above quote is true. Powder River basin coal is lower BTU coal than Illinois coal, meaning it contains less energy than Illinois coal. (the problem with Illinois coal is it's high sulfur content). well over 60% of the US' energy production comes from coal plants, so "other power sources" still have a long way to go before they even hope to catch up (natural gas and nuclear power are #2 and #3)

And China is buying Illinois coal as fast as that can. Illinois mines DID mostly shut down after the series of strikes in 1958-1970, but the industry never went away completely, and they're opening new mines as we speak. I've seen two new coal mines being opened this year; one SW of Lasalle, IL, and one in Dennison, Ohio.

[andrechapelon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by DMIR230

QUOTE: Originally posted by bigblow69

By the way Overland models used to have a plant in China. Some time ago they closed it. I'm really glad someone else started this thread.

I can't justify paying the high prices that Athearn and everyother manufacture requires for their now imported junk from China that used to be made here, keep in mind nothing has changed besides the price from $5.00 to $15-$20. Also keep in mind the people in china are not making more than $0.40 a day. Oh ya their standard of living is great.

For those of you who don't think that it matters where your stuff is made, remember that when you get your pink slip cause your company is moving to China, India or some other third world country!

PEOPLE TAKE OFF YOUR ROSE COLORED GLASSES!!! YOU HAVE TO CARE WHERE YOUR STUFF IS MADE, AND IT BETTER BE IN THE USA!!!!

That last statement is rather ironic considering you've advocated in another venue buying Korean made brass rather than Chinese made plastic . Korean brass/Chinese plastic, the stuff still comes in from overseas.

It used to be Japanese brass, then the Japanese priced themselves out of the market. The Koreans are bidding fair to price themselves out of the market.. My guess is that the next brass supplier will be Bangladesh.

There's irony all around, regardless. I have a Japanese brand Sharp TV that was made in Taiwan.

Andre

Andre

[simon1966]

QUOTE:
Look at the prosperity of once-industrial centers, like Chicago, St. Louis, Pittsburg, and others; then compare that with what they were like 60-50 years ago!!

Chicago is booming, gowing like crazy and is full of high tech and service orientated companies. St. Louis has undergone significant urban renewal in the down town and is also the home to high tech, biotech and is working hard to attract more of these types of business. I have friends in Pittsburgh that tell me that this city is finally starting to break away from independance on the old industries. I suspect that all 3 of these cities are significantly better off today than 60 years ago.

Industries ebb and flow. Jobs are created in new fields.

In 1920, my wife's grandfather moved to the USA from Croatia to work the mines of central Illinois. He died in the mines, crushed between coal cars down the shaft. This industry basically does not exist in central Illinois. Better coal is produced more efficiently in other parts of the USA and the World and other power sources have gained greater prominence. Decended from this one poor imigrant there are now 21 American families working in the following industries:

Chiropractor x2
High tech medical sales
Office furniture supply
State benefits department
Tree farming
US Airforce civil contractor repairing landing gear
Insurance underwriter
Software developer
Auto sales
Etc.

I guarantee that everyone of the decendents is significantly better off, working in jobs that did not exist 50 years ago.

Industries die, strong economies like the USA, replace these older industries with better paying higher tech jobs.

The US economy employs many more people today than 50 years ago.