What's NOT Made in China?

[DSchmitt]

Economies are are constantly changing. All the government can do is protect business and/or jobs through taffiffs, embargos and sometimes subsidies. (Proper subsidies can have a good effect, for instance after WW1 Britian subsidized certain classes of trucks which lead to improved vehicles and enabled speedy mechanization of the British army when needed for WW 2) Protectionism is an attempt to stop change. It may work for awhile, but in the end it leads to a stagnet economy and makes the problems it was trying to solve worse than they otherwise would have been.

China must provide more than just a cheap work force. It must provide a proper (relatively free but fair) business climate and an educated productive work force which feels a sense of achievement and hope for their and their childrens futures. So far Communists countries (like other repressive dictatorships) have not had a very good track record in the long run. Initally people under such regimes have a lot of faith in them (a period that may be prolonged by keeping the people ignorant of the world) and because of this faith their econimies seem to work well in the short term. As the people learn more about the world they loose the faith and desire a better system.

Communism looks better to certain realitvely well off spoiled people in the west (and the poor in brutal non-Communists dictatorships) than it does to the people who actually have to live under its heel.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Roadtrp

I know I won't change the mind of the buy American folks, but study after study has shown that free trade is GOOD for both the American economy and the American worker. Remember Ross Perot and his 'big sucking sound' of jobs going to Mexico because of NAFTA?

Never happened.

Yes, some lower level assembly jobs DID go to Mexico. But more jobs were created in America because of the act, and they were generally at a higher level than the jobs that left. I buy American when all other things are equal, but I don't know that I would pay extra just to buy American.

The prejudice being shown now against the Chinese is the exact same as the prejudice shown against the Japanese when they started importing to the U.S. over 40 years ago. We've made our peace with Japan. It will happen with China too. Just give it time.

[:)]

Make peace with Commies???!!!!!!!

I thought America was for democracy, but how come our biggest trading partner is COMMUNIST??? Do you know how the Chinese get treated by their government over there???

And so-called "free trade"; (read: Let's (India and China) Kill your country), is good for America??

Tell the people that know how to make molds, dies, machinists, industrial workers, steel workers that! America needs industry-It is what America grew and prospered on!!

Look at the prosperity of once-industrial centers, like Chicago, St. Louis, Pittsburg, and others; then compare that with what they were like 60-50 years ago!! Yes, jobs that long ago were less well-paying, but everything was much, much less expensive too!! Not today! The Chinese who make so much of our products in America get paid what we did in the 1920s and '30s, yet once the stuff gets over here, instantly the company charges for the product what it cost when it was still made over here!![:(!][:(!][:0][V]

And I WOULD pay more for a product that's USA made, I have before and will plenty of other times...
I would type more, but I don't want to start a "flame war", All I want to do is prove to you that America needs industry!

Oh, and think around for a while about what it would be like to be forced to train your foreign replacement, then have to go to Wally World or some other minimum wage job, I don't think it would be fun, and I don't care to ever find out, either.


[:(!][:(!][:(!][:(!][:0][:0][V][V]

[Roadtrp]

I know I won't change the mind of the buy American folks, but study after study has shown that free trade is GOOD for both the American economy and the American worker. Remember Ross Perot and his 'big sucking sound' of jobs going to Mexico because of NAFTA?

Never happened.

Yes, some lower level assembly jobs DID go to Mexico. But more jobs were created in America because of the act, and they were generally at a higher level than the jobs that left. I buy American when all other things are equal, but I don't know that I would pay extra just to buy American.

The prejudice being shown now against the Chinese is the exact same as the prejudice shown against the Japanese when they started importing to the U.S. over 40 years ago. We've made our peace with Japan. It will happen with China too. Just give it time.

[:)]

[Anonymous]

This is an interesting topic, to keep it rail rail related, I wonder when GE and or EMD move to China?

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by DSchmitt

QUOTE: Originally posted by coal drag

QUOTE: Originally posted by DMIR230

QUOTE: Originally posted by bigblow69

By the way Overland models used to have a plant in China. Some time ago they closed it. I'm really glad someone else started this thread.

I can't justify paying the high prices that Athearn and everyother manufacture requires for their now imported junk from China that used to be made here, keep in mind nothing has changed besides the price from $5.00 to $15-$20. Also keep in mind the people in china are not making more than $0.40 a day. Oh ya their standard of living is great.

For those of you who don't think that it matters where your stuff is made, remember that when you get your pink slip cause your company is moving to China, India or some other third world country!

PEOPLE TAKE OFF YOUR ROSE COLORED GLASSES!!! YOU HAVE TO CARE WHERE YOUR STUFF IS MADE, AND IT BETTER BE IN THE USA!!!!

Yet another reason to vote AGAINST Bush !!!

What has Bush have to do with it? This hasn't just happened since he took office. It would take extreemly hig tarrifs or severe trade restrictions to stop it. I You won't get them from either major political party.

Well Bush is not helping but he is not the start of the problem. Our wonderful government, CEO's and the American public are to blame for out problem. CEO's want stuff to be made cheap so they can have more money, rather than giving it to an American worker, the general public wants things cheap so they dont have to spend all of their money on one thing, Government because they do not care that the American company has to deal with the EPA, labor, high taxes, while the company in China or someother 3rd world doesnt have to worry about pollution or labor, if their labor is a problem that trouble maker becomes an organ donor. No Bush in not completely to blame but neither party in our government is a good choice. Ok enough about politics.

[DSchmitt]

QUOTE: Originally posted by coal drag

QUOTE: Originally posted by DMIR230

QUOTE: Originally posted by bigblow69

By the way Overland models used to have a plant in China. Some time ago they closed it. I'm really glad someone else started this thread.

I can't justify paying the high prices that Athearn and everyother manufacture requires for their now imported junk from China that used to be made here, keep in mind nothing has changed besides the price from $5.00 to $15-$20. Also keep in mind the people in china are not making more than $0.40 a day. Oh ya their standard of living is great.

For those of you who don't think that it matters where your stuff is made, remember that when you get your pink slip cause your company is moving to China, India or some other third world country!

PEOPLE TAKE OFF YOUR ROSE COLORED GLASSES!!! YOU HAVE TO CARE WHERE YOUR STUFF IS MADE, AND IT BETTER BE IN THE USA!!!!

Yet another reason to vote AGAINST Bush !!!

What has Bush have to do with it? This hasn't just happened since he took office. It would take extreemly hig tarrifs or severe trade restrictions to stop it. I You won't get them from either major political party.

[coal drag]

QUOTE: Originally posted by DMIR230

QUOTE: Originally posted by bigblow69

By the way Overland models used to have a plant in China. Some time ago they closed it. I'm really glad someone else started this thread.

I can't justify paying the high prices that Athearn and everyother manufacture requires for their now imported junk from China that used to be made here, keep in mind nothing has changed besides the price from $5.00 to $15-$20. Also keep in mind the people in china are not making more than $0.40 a day. Oh ya their standard of living is great.

For those of you who don't think that it matters where your stuff is made, remember that when you get your pink slip cause your company is moving to China, India or some other third world country!

PEOPLE TAKE OFF YOUR ROSE COLORED GLASSES!!! YOU HAVE TO CARE WHERE YOUR STUFF IS MADE, AND IT BETTER BE IN THE USA!!!!

Yet another reason to vote AGAINST Bush !!!

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by bigblow69

By the way Overland models used to have a plant in China. Some time ago they closed it. I'm really glad someone else started this thread.

I can't justify paying the high prices that Athearn and everyother manufacture requires for their now imported junk from China that used to be made here, keep in mind nothing has changed besides the price from $5.00 to $15-$20. Also keep in mind the people in china are not making more than $0.40 a day. Oh ya their standard of living is great.

For those of you who don't think that it matters where your stuff is made, remember that when you get your pink slip cause your company is moving to China, India or some other third world country!

PEOPLE TAKE OFF YOUR ROSE COLORED GLASSES!!! YOU HAVE TO CARE WHERE YOUR STUFF IS MADE, AND IT BETTER BE IN THE USA!!!!

[Anonymous]

Well, maybe we ought to keep the jobs here and subsidize them like we do for farmers!! I have been milling that idea around for a while now, as they just reported a few weeks ago that the U S pays 50,000 farmers nearly $7 billion to sit on their asses and do nothing. That's $140,000 a year each!!! To reflect?? How about survival of the fittest? Let the healthy farms, the profitable farms survive. Let the others fail. After all, they are failing anyway.
Auto assembly plant workers get over $25 an hour plus great benefits to stand around all day. One of my friends works at Ford. They have 2 guys punch in the other 12 that never show up. They rotate each week, so they only work a week in 7. To top it off, ANY IDIOT can work at an auto plant. Why such high wages?
Doctors and hospitals make great money, but they always check to see you have insurance or that you can pay before rendering service. Read the HYPOCRATIC OATH and show me one doctor that practices it.
Most of the modern worlds great inventions were invented here, but lost through greed. We all want to earn the BIG BUCKS, but don't want to pay for it. I buy what I can afford that appeals to me. Eventually (1000 years?) everyone will be considered equal, and maybe they will stop taking from each other and start taking care of each other.

Sorry, my $.05 worth.

[ericsp]

QUOTE: Originally posted by SILVERCHAMPION

ERICSP; Are you sure that Athearn are still made in the US. Athearn did sale out.

Yes, I sent them an e-mail on July 21, 2004 asking about their "Blue Box" kits. The next day they sent me an e-mail saying thet will continue to produce them in their Carson, CA. plant as long as there is a demand for them.

Here is the quote.

QUOTE:
Thank-you for taking the time to send in your inquiry regarding our regular "Blue Box" kit product line. Please note that we have no intentions to discontinue producing our regular line "Blue Box" items. We continue to produce these items on a daily basis here at our plant and will continue to do so as long there is a sufficient demand for those products. We do not have a list of what is currently being produced available. We can answer specific questions regarding whether or not a particular product will be made this year.

[Anonymous]

I'm really tired of hearing it's made in China. This has to stop long term it is really going to effect our economy. I'm a mould-maker and this threat hangs over our heads all the time. They can build moulds much cheaper over there than we can and there technology is suprisingly good. I work for a major company and our Gm plus others from the Corporation went to China to view there shops and techniques. If we're not careful, five years down the road we'll be out of a job and wondering what happened.
I don't see any solution othere than the Government putting a stop to it. Not only does it affect plastics but every other function of life, if they can build it cheaper somewhere else then there going to do it, which will put alot of people out of work.
Governments need to industrialize the world to help Countries catch up.

[ctyclsscs]

Just to set the record straight - as far as I know, ALL Stewart engines except some of their Baldwin switchers are made completely in the US. Even the Baldwin switchers may be by now.

Also, a lot of structure kits are still made here. DPM, RIX (Pikestuff and Smalltown) Grandt Line, Great West Models, SLM, AM Models and us (City Classics) are all still made here in the US.

Jim

[coal drag]

QUOTE: Originally posted by bostonsrock

QUOTE: Originally posted by willy6

i don't think you have a choice when it comes to "China". i think the only thing on my layout not made in China is the wood for benchwork and i wonder about that.

Canada has a lot of good softwood plywood, CHEAP! Come up and get some.

Is it 4'X8', or is it metric ????? How much a sheet and what are the tariffs to bring it south of the border ???

[grayfox1119]

This is a troubling dilema for many of us guys for sure. I believe we all would buy American "if" the products were here, but they are not so we must choose elsewhere, and that becomes a personal choice for each of us. I don't like what is happening in China for a single minute, but I also know that farmers are leaving their farms by the THOUSANDS to go work in the large cities. Why? Money. We may think it is meager, but try living on what a Chinese farmer has to live on for a year. So for a generation or two, they work in sweat shops, but then the next generations have it better and conditions change, and this WILL change China, believe me.
As for us here in America, yes, I came from a very humble cold water, no centralheat, frost on the INSIDE of the windows 3 decker mill house. My father and mother never owned a home his entire life, but they got me to college, and I workedi n Hi tech, semiconductor processing. I do not know what the future holds for our grandchildren (three of my children are in Hi-Tech now) but I do know this, education is the key to success, I don't care WHAT field you enter, Mechancial, Electrical, Chemical, Civil, Teaching, Aeronautics, Medical, Law, Dental, the opportunities to make it here in America is real. By the way guys, have any of you seen the Travel Channel series with John Ratenburger, Made in America, airing each Tuesday at 9 EST? If not , watch it, it is all about American companies making it in America. You will have renewed pride in our fellow American workers.
Have agood evening guys, keep the steam pressure up, there is a big hill ahead of us.

***

[the-big-blow]

By the way Overland models used to have a plant in China. Some time ago they closed it. I'm really glad someone else started this thread.

[Junctionfan]

I don't believe China is as bad as they are in the decade of Tianamin square. I still wouldn't want to live there because they are way too left-winged for my liking. They may go to democracy a few decades from now because they aren't too bad with folk in Hong Kong so there is hope for them.

As far as the products are concerned, as long as it runs good I will buy it. I don't mix politics with my hobby because I want to have fun; to hell with being politically correct all the time.

[Anonymous]

China has actually been charged by the US Gov. for stealing design or trade secrets, or something like that, also Congress had a bill a while ago to illegalize trade with China.
I hope that bill passes, even if all of that stuff was just moved to production in Japan, Japan is a lot milder and more democratic country than China ever will be.

[the-big-blow]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Roadtrp

the American standard of living increases.[:)]

Many modelers I know have been forced to take a paycut in half of what they were making. And I only weathered the storm in my profession by the good grace of God. DO you actually think that they will ever make the wage they were again? So I guess your right the standard of living is really increasing. I see many jobs in the employment section everyday. Hey take a 1/2 paycut just work two jobs(if you can find them). You probably weren't worth what we were paying you anyhow. Everything is costing less. I can buy a gallon of gas for only $2.00. Can't afford that $250 dollar sound equiped loco just put it on credit card. The last figure I heard that the trade deficit with China is 90 Billion, of which I heard they use for MILITARY spending.

[joseph2]

As far as I know Hobbytown of Boston locomotives and Campbell structure kits are still made here.A few years ago USA had sanctions against South Africa because of South Africa's human rights violations.China is more oppresive then South Africa ever was. Joe G.

[Roadtrp]

Year after year for the past 50 years we have imported more and more goods from overseas. And year after year, the American standard of living increases. I'm not too worried about it. If some Chinese guy wants to assemble plastic locomotives for 80 cents an hour, fine. It keeps the costs down for American consumers.

[:)]

[the-big-blow]

I have to comment on this. I have been struggling with the moral dilemma as of late with all the products being made in China. For the most part I have given up buying locomotives made anywhere but South Korea and japan. This has brought a re emphasis on my brass collecting days for the most part I am very happy with the locomotives I own. However Kato makes an excellent product and it is made in Japan and I still buy them.

[CBQ_Guy]

QUOTE: Originally posted by garr

Do not forget Kadee couplers and cars are made in the USA.

Jay

And Homasote! [:p]

[Don Gibson]

(OVERSIMPLIFICATION):

Q: "What's not made in China (or Mexico or India or Malasia, or?" ......(fill in the blank) ...

Small 'limited demand' items. The original type businesses that were our hobby. Mantua Metal Products, for example, Model Die Cast for another.
Just like hobby shops have gone out of business with 'discount' oriented customers,
it does start with US. We are in a 'get it for less' society.

BRASS is a good example. HOW many (%) of us are content to pay for a hand-crafted
products (no matter where they are made)?

As POGO once said: "We has met the enemy, and they is us!" - Sorry.

[Anonymous]

Märklin and Trix have started producing stuff in China - so read boxes carefully. Some Herpa cars are made in China.

IHC and Model Power kits are made in Denmark, Germany, and sometimes Brazil. Heljan's kits are also Danish. Walther's kits seem to be made for them in Denmark by Heljan, or Germany, by Kibri.

Hornby just bought Spanish manufacturer Electrotren, and plans to switch all manufacturing to China.

Some Rivarossi is now made in China - the skeleton log cars, for example. And while some of IHC's freight and passenger cars are made in Slovenia by Mehano, some passenger cars are made in China.

Stewart Models locomotives, are for th emost part, made in South Korea by Ajin.

The EU does not require manufacturers to state the country of manufacture on products. They only have to display the CE logo that ensures they comply with certain standards.

I prefer to buy products from countries that defend human rights, hold elections, allow for freedom of the press, etc. as well.

[jsanchez]

What is scarry is that all the high tech jobs which were to be our future are rapidly disapearing, I worked in the Semiconductor business for 15 years, it is all going to China, engineering, research and production. The MBA's who mentioned "we have to get new skills " will be in the same boat as everyone else, when corporations figure out they can be had for 10, 000 to 15,000 a year in China and India and actualy know how to run businesses not just theorize on how businesses should be run from useless business professors and US business schools, also corporate China will not have any use for American MBA's once they control everything, they will be laughed at for being so short sighted and actually believing in free trade.

QUOTE: Originally posted by ironmine

Hello ***

I do understand the economics of it all. In theory, anyway.

However, China does not play by the rules. From what I read, reform is coming awfully slow over there. Wages and conditions may go up slightly in the city, but there are a gazzillion more of them coming from the rural areas.

Japan may have "re-engineered" our products when they started thier rebirth after the war, but China just copies anything , and everything, they want. From software to golf clubs to nuclear warheads. And they do **nothing** about it.

My brother-in-law and his wife just got back from China with the little girl they adopted (read *bought*) from them, so I watch my mouth. But China is evil, not our friends, and don't care about being a good member of the world community. Japan and South Korea are the opposite of China.

Those sweat shops you mentioned that were here at one time sure changed, didn't they? They became somewhat decent paying jobs across our country... footwear factories in New England, clothing mills, all sorts of factory work. If those slave workers in China complain and threaten to stop working, well ....

I don't know, I just don't understand what the future holds for my kids, and thier kids. As all these factories close up all across our country, what do these people do? Get jobs at WalMart? Suddenly become EE's?

I understand "innovation." We see it in model railroading, I think. NCE and Digitrax are two exapmples. But how many people work at NCE? How many people lost their jobs when the XYZ factory closed down (and XYZ's suppliers and contractors).

And all these completely unskilled immigrants we have coming in, what are they going to do to make enough money to become middle class? One hundred years ago, it was my unskilled great grandfather that came here from Italy. But someone had secured a job for him in the Pennsylvania coal mines (Robertsdale, Pa, where the East Broad Top RR hauled coal from), and he got jobs for his sons, and they bought houses and sent their children to college. All these Spanish laborers here in NJ are crowded into apartments and little houses, trying to send money back to thier families. many are just giving up and going back to thier countries. I feel sorry for them.

Woah, way too much coffee this morning. Anyway, go to hell Waymart and China. And India is gearing up to do the same damage to us.

I guess we all could work for the government. Those tox dollars just seem to grow on tress behind city hall.

Jim

[Anonymous]

Ironmine-That is the truest thing about the whole globalization problem I've ever read.
China, India, N. Korea, Pakistan and a few other Asian countries are evil, very true.

[Anonymous]

Hello ***

I do understand the economics of it all. In theory, anyway.

However, China does not play by the rules. From what I read, reform is coming awfully slow over there. Wages and conditions may go up slightly in the city, but there are a gazzillion more of them coming from the rural areas.

Japan may have "re-engineered" our products when they started thier rebirth after the war, but China just copies anything , and everything, they want. From software to golf clubs to nuclear warheads. And they do **nothing** about it.

My brother-in-law and his wife just got back from China with the little girl they adopted (read *bought*) from them, so I watch my mouth. But China is evil, not our friends, and don't care about being a good member of the world community. Japan and South Korea are the opposite of China.

Those sweat shops you mentioned that were here at one time sure changed, didn't they? They became somewhat decent paying jobs across our country... footwear factories in New England, clothing mills, all sorts of factory work. If those slave workers in China complain and threaten to stop working, well ....

I don't know, I just don't understand what the future holds for my kids, and thier kids. As all these factories close up all across our country, what do these people do? Get jobs at WalMart? Suddenly become EE's?

I understand "innovation." We see it in model railroading, I think. NCE and Digitrax are two exapmples. But how many people work at NCE? How many people lost their jobs when the XYZ factory closed down (and XYZ's suppliers and contractors).

And all these completely unskilled immigrants we have coming in, what are they going to do to make enough money to become middle class? One hundred years ago, it was my unskilled great grandfather that came here from Italy. But someone had secured a job for him in the Pennsylvania coal mines (Robertsdale, Pa, where the East Broad Top RR hauled coal from), and he got jobs for his sons, and they bought houses and sent their children to college. All these Spanish laborers here in NJ are crowded into apartments and little houses, trying to send money back to thier families. many are just giving up and going back to thier countries. I feel sorry for them.

Woah, way too much coffee this morning. Anyway, go to hell Walmart and China. And India is gearing up to do the same damage to us.

I guess we all could work for the government. Those tox dollars just seem to grow on tress behind city hall.

Jim

[twhite]

Oops, deja vu!
When I first got interested in model railroading, back sometime between the Medieval and Renaissance Eras, everybody was complaining about Japanese brass steamers, which were new on the market. That was until everybody started collecting then because they looked GREAT and with a little tinkering, ran well. This was the era of open-frame motors, guys, DC instead of DCC (computers were still taking up city blocks), grain of wheat bulbs that looked like you'd stolen them from your dad's old standard-guage Lionel Blue Comet, and wheelsets that made more noise than the prototype. I remember buying my first plastic steamer, a 2-8-8-2 that had just arrived from Rivarossi, and being shocked--SHOCKED, I tell you--to find out that it was actually made in Italy. ITALY? What was it made out of, pasta? Didn't we fight them as well as Japan in WWII? My God, I was being Un-American! Thank God for Roundhouse, Athearn, Varney and Walthers. But, being as I am, a crotchety old steam fan, I gradually realized that in order to have a decent locomotive selection, I was going to have to buy from Japan and Italy, because the only people here making steamers was Varney--soon to go out of business--and for a very, VERY brief time, Athearn. And Mantua's steamers just didn't appeal to me. Years, and many Japanese imports later, as I began to upgrade my loco fleet, I found that Proto and Spectrum were coming out with some real jewels that didn't cost the National Debt. I didn't even realize they were made in China (a couple from Austria, too, I think) until I'd fallen in love with their performance. Now BLI has those wonderful, noisy steamers that I've gotten several of, and lo and behold, it's China or Korea. Appalling Human Rights issues aside (and yes, I agree with all of your comments on that issue), what this makes me think, is that our hobby isn't declining at all, but becoming larger and more global. Don't get me wrong though, I attempt to buy American products as much as I can (Athearn, Accurail, etc.) But I model a particular era in railroading (1940-52) with big steam, and if I need or want a new steamer, I have no choice but to go with a foreign importer (no, I do NOT want a Lionel Challenger, never liked the looks of that locomotive). So, until an American manufacturer wants to build a steamer in the good old USofA, I've got no choice except Japan, Korea, China, Italy or Austria. Yah, I suppose I could convert to first-generation diesels, but I like watching those rods revolve too much.

[simon1966]

I often fall asleep thinking about my layout and the next projects that I am going to tackle. It is one of the things I really like about the hobby, I can fill my mind with it, instead of worrying about other pressures of life. Last night, I found myself considering this issue, and what it would mean to the hobby if so much was not manufactured overseas by US companies. My considered opinion is that there would probably be less choice, much less R to R and that our hobby would be more expensive.

Without the ability to outsource manufacturing, companies like BLI would not exist. The multi, million dollar production facilities needed to manufacture their product line in the USA would be a huge barrier to starting this business. I even wonder if there are subcontractors in the USA capable of producing these models? I suspect, that the only cost effective way for BLI to function is to utilize manufacturing facilities that already exist capable of producing this type of work. What we have here is the Brass business model on a grand scale. So remove China from the equation and the products on offer in the market and therefore the choice goes down.

I personally do not purchase R to R as I enjoy spending time assembling kits. R to R stops the modeller spending time, but someone spends the time! I suspect that most R to R and highly detailed locomotive shells, do not lend themselves to much in the way of automated manufacturing. This assembly is performed by hand. It may well be done in a production line setting, but still there is a high labor component in the cost of these items. what does a typical US worker expect to earn per hour? How much other direct cost does a US manufacturer incur to employ the worker? R to R is probably nor viable with typical Western labor costs. It is not hard to come up with $20 in labor cost alone to produce an R to R caboose. Start throwing in other maufacturing costs and we start to see silly numbers. If everything we can buy today was made in the USA how many of us could afford to stay in the hobby? I suspect that this would be a very small hobby if it were not for low cost overseas manufacturing.

The final point, is that there are rather a lot of American workers who make their living, designing, managing, importing and selling these Chinese products.

[Anonymous]

ERICSP; Are you sure that Athearn are still made in the US. Athearn did sale out.