What's NOT Made in China?

[Anonymous]

Our biggest problem is that people just don't care or even make an effort to do anything about outsourcing in this country. If I was a telecommunications worker or a factory employee, maybe even a state worker, you could bet I would be ranting unkind (and true) things about India and China, I wouldn't be buying a single thing made in another country I didn't have to, and that I would be telling unions, and everyone I knew to get everyone they knew really ticked off at China and our government for letting this happen, and that I'd be voting for people who wanted to end NAFTA and kill the WTO!

I'd encourage anyone reading this to look at where a product is made before you buy it, and to spend a minute or two looking for a USA-made product before buying something made in Mexico or China.

Darth9x9:
China also makes some of the poorest quality steel on earth. They used to make bolts that you could literally break with one hand. AND WE TRADE WITH THEM???

Railman:
Your posts always include very true comments. Free trade definently isn't fair trade, the only fair trade there is is when you're trading with England, or Germany, or another country who supports democracy and union rights; and when there's a good selection of USA made alternatives available as well.

[davekelly]

bikerdad,

Your last paragraph is exactly right. You wouldn't believe how many folks don't know that many "foreign" products are made here in the U.S. by U.S. employees and how many "U.S." products are made by foreign employees in far off lands.

[Bikerdad]

QUOTE: There is not one case of trade restrictions working but there are many where trading raised entire countries.

While I agree wholeheartedly with the thrust of your argument, factually, it is incorrect. Trade restrictions DID work with South Africa. Of course, part of that may be precisely because it wasn't a Third World country.

Many things move offshore due to government interference, in one fashion or another. America's candy industry is disappearing to Canada, because of sugar price controls that keep the cost of sugar bought in America far higher than the world market prices. The tanning industry in this country has been almost completely obliterated by environmental regulations. That's why you see so much Italian leather. Hey, the Italians aren't known for their ranching, where do they get all those hides? From Iowa!

However, it has to be pointed out that a lot of products that once were imported are now made here. Buy a Honda Goldwing, BMW X5, Nissan Titan and you're buying a vehicle assembled in America from domestic and foreign components. You don't hear about these things when folks yak about outsourcing, but its real, and the US gets MILLIONS of jobs from insourcing.

[cspmo]

EMD locovotives are made in Canada. G.E. Locomotive are made in theU.S.A.

[Don Gibson]

I know ONE thing that isn't made inChina ....

CHOP SUEY!

[railman]

QUOTE: Originally posted by darth9x9

You would be amamzed at how cheap it is to make things in China. It costs less to make a brand new 40' steel container (like the ones we see on stack trains and that ride on container chassis) in China than it does to ship an empty one back to China. Now think about that for a minute...the steel they are producing is essentially disposable. It's hard to compete against that.

A point of mine is that nobody will say anything to call their attention to all this. Another post mentioned New Balance shoes, why aren't they doing this?

May use the rebuttle argument of: that because we import so much, we can't get tough with other countries. They would stop buying American products.

From a railroad perspective, the loss of container traffic for an extended period could throw them into to dissarray. If it came to a tariff war, we could fund things to hold it over

Remember also is that yes, we do buy a lot. The Saudis can't play too rough with the oil because as much as they all don't like the US, we're the biggest buyer!!! Why aren't we buying more from Mexico or Russia and cutting out OPEC?

Remember that we can live without cheap toys and t- shirts (heaven forbid a shop open up here on US soil again!) - but they'll be back after they aren't getting US grain, aid dollars, and real stuff- fighter jets, computer technology, access to our colleges and universities by their students, etc.

Another point that they say is that since foreigners own a great deal of our national debt, we have to play nice. I disagree strongly with that. In the words of a old song,

"The bank done come an' took everything I own/
but the jokes on them-/
they already owned what I owned."

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for helping people. But not when they won't be much better off and American workers are losing everything to allow it. It's just not right.

If they get tough, we are the biggest purchasers in the world! We can spend our money elsewhere if we are firm in our resolve- All this trade is okay as long as it's every other country in the world taking advantage of the US. But as soon as we say anything, it's "HOW DARE YOU" and "you can't stop progress." and "SANCTIONS!!"
Look how long it took them to fess up to dumping steel in the 1980's.

I want to say, that I'm not trying to be overly mean or anything on this issue. This is a civil forum and I believe this is a civilized, open debate of the issues, including how railroads would be affected by the things many are advocating. I would like to thank the moderators for letting this go- this a very serious issue that needs to be talked about, not just by railfans, by the way.


To conclude;
An old phrase I recall:

"Free Trade is Not Fair Trade."

[darth9x9]

You would be amamzed at how cheap it is to make things in China. It costs less to make a brand new 40' steel container (like the ones we see on stack trains and that ride on container chassis) in China than it does to ship an empty one back to China. Now think about that for a minute...the steel they are producing is essentially disposable. It's hard to compete against that.

[Anonymous]

You better take A look at your bench work again I bought 1"X4"s and 1"X6"s with made in Denmark and or Sweden labels

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by railman

QUOTE: Originally posted by dkelly

China is making money off of us? And then they hold our plane hostage? Funny thing. I don't remember China forcing American companies to manufacture stuff there. I dare say that in the big scheme of stuff China is not making as much on each sneaker made there as this country would if it were made here. Manufacturers are there because they can increase their bottom lines by being there because of a higher profit margin and the fact that American consumers like the results of stuff being made there. (how much would a name brand sneaker cost if made here in America?)Political rallies? Write the manufacture? None of this works. If people truly want a manufacturer to stop doing business in a certain country . . . . say China, then there is a simple solution. Stop buying its product. You can write a CEO a hundred letters today . . . but it's a waste of time if you just turn around and buy the product anyways. These are corporations . .. . they are concerned with one thing . . . the bottom line.

Nobody is "forcing" anybody to go to china, but remember a few things before everyone starts singing "Kum-by-ya" ( I KNOW I spelled that wrong, sorry) and praising this one world bs-

China has, through government intervention (i.e. Communist gov't) their currency artificially weak, and sets it's value. The US and others adopted a floating dollar that responds to the market, et.c. This is one reason companies are lured there.

China also has rampant piracy and duplication that has beguh to catch up with automakers and the like that sell their cars in China- many of China's models look very similar to american cars. The makers protest, but who do you complain to?

Another thing that they don't want you to know, is that in China pollution control is pretty much ZERO. So we might be one world but it isn't gonna be around much longer.

By the way, working conditions are pretty much zippo squat. So if we're propping up a new economy, it's only very poorly, and we should be ashamed of ourselves for doing so.

In the face of this, the ultimate question is; will our costs go down? No. We'll still be paying the same as if a union guy with three kids and benifits was making that model, or a unknown guy getting a nickel and hour was stamping the presses. That's the part that irks me.

[#ditto][tup]

That's why they call China a 3rd world country. I have no care for the USA to trade with them, or even act friendly towards China, we should completely stay away from Asia, Japan and the Phillipines being the exceptions because those two countries have been under USA control, (read:liberation) and their government actually has democracy.

[davekelly]

I agree that paying the same for a product made in China using slave labor, no polution controls etc etc as one made in the U.S. is irking. I think the case of New Balance introduced above is an excellent one. If New Balance put on its box "Made in the U.S. by paying U.S. workers a decent wage" and next to it was pair of Nike's stamped "Made in China" at the exact same price - but Nike has dozens of commercials with NBA stars wearing them - what would people buy? Now, if New Balance were to pay the millions in sponsorship as Nike how much would NB shoes cost? It's a tough nut to crack.

[railman]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dkelly

China is making money off of us? And then they hold our plane hostage? Funny thing. I don't remember China forcing American companies to manufacture stuff there. I dare say that in the big scheme of stuff China is not making as much on each sneaker made there as this country would if it were made here. Manufacturers are there because they can increase their bottom lines by being there because of a higher profit margin and the fact that American consumers like the results of stuff being made there. (how much would a name brand sneaker cost if made here in America?)Political rallies? Write the manufacture? None of this works. If people truly want a manufacturer to stop doing business in a certain country . . . . say China, then there is a simple solution. Stop buying its product. You can write a CEO a hundred letters today . . . but it's a waste of time if you just turn around and buy the product anyways. These are corporations . .. . they are concerned with one thing . . . the bottom line.

Nobody is "forcing" anybody to go to china, but remember a few things before everyone starts singing "Kum-by-ya" ( I KNOW I spelled that wrong, sorry) and praising this one world bs-

China has, through government intervention (i.e. Communist gov't) their currency artificially weak, and sets it's value. The US and others adopted a floating dollar that responds to the market, et.c. This is one reason companies are lured there.

China also has rampant piracy and duplication that has beguh to catch up with automakers and the like that sell their cars in China- many of China's models look very similar to american cars. The makers protest, but who do you complain to?

Another thing that they don't want you to know, is that in China pollution control is pretty much ZERO. So we might be one world but it isn't gonna be around much longer.

By the way, working conditions are pretty much zippo squat. So if we're propping up a new economy, it's only very poorly, and we should be ashamed of ourselves for doing so.

In the face of this, the ultimate question is; will our costs go down? No. We'll still be paying the same as if a union guy with three kids and benifits was making that model, or a unknown guy getting a nickel and hour was stamping the presses. That's the part that irks me.

[Anonymous]

Tichy , mr plaster, fsm, , so you can see there is alot of stuff made all over, but regretfully it is a world economy and happily the quality is very good. just remember buying from your local hobby shop is what counts the most, they need our support.

[Anonymous]

At least they're not marked under a Chinese brand name, which as I said above was going to far. But I will try to buy as little Chinese made products as possible...

[Anonymous]

"never buy anything made in China by a Chinese company"? I really don't think that is possible in today's world. Even things marked "made in America" "made in Japan" etc most likely have components made in China by a Chinese Company or have some raw materials from China.

[Anonymous]

I'll never buy anything made in China by a Chinese company. That is simply letting it go to far. And if Athearn/MDC goes under, remember recently (1980-now) there have been a few new companies in the market, and hopefully American companies would fill that void.

[Anonymous]

The excuse that "they can make it cheaper in China" is, for the most part, a red herring. People will pay more for unique and desirable products. US companies have not been aggressively producing new and interesting models. Whether the company is Revell/Monogram, AMT/ERTL, or MDC/Roundhouse, they have been sitting on their hands. We've seen mostly old items perhaps slightly retooled, repackaged, and re-released.

People will pay more for new tooling if the new product hits the spot. The Chinese have figured this out as evidenced by the recent success of Trumpeter's 1/350 scale aircraft carriers USS Hornet, USS Yorktown and USS Essex, all selling for $119.95 retail. Soon we will see the USS Franklin in 1/350 scale for a whopping $199.00. Can you imagine that no US company was interested in producing these historic WWII models in 1/350 scale. It took a Chinese company to figure out that there was significant demand for these items.

The real challenge is to match their imagination!

[Anonymous]

CapnAmerica,

Good points. I did read earlier this year that Revell/Monogram either had or was in the process of closing their last U.S. production facility and with that accomplished all of their production would be outside of the United States.

Dave

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by higssy

I'm really tired of hearing it's made in China. This has to stop long term it is really going to effect our economy. I'm a mould-maker and this threat hangs over our heads all the time. They can build moulds much cheaper over there than we can and there technology is suprisingly good. I work for a major company and our Gm plus others from the Corporation went to China to view there shops and techniques. If we're not careful, five years down the road we'll be out of a job and wondering what happened.
I don't see any solution othere than the Government putting a stop to it. Not only does it affect plastics but every other function of life, if they can build it cheaper somewhere else then there going to do it, which will put alot of people out of work.
Governments need to industrialize the world to help Countries catch up.

The heads of a lot of our US companies have been asleep at the switch. Revell/Monogram used to make five (5) large sailing ships models. Now they only have one, the USS Constitution.

Trumpeter, a Chinese company has seen the void left by Revell/Monogram and many other plastic model kit makers in our hobby market. Trumpeter is now bringing high quality plastic models to the US market, at fairly hefty prices, and the stuff is selling like hotcakes.

There are a significant number of hobby retailers that are not going to go along with the Horizon deal. This means that there will be a void on their shelves for mid-priced locomotives and rolling stock. The Chinese have been making these products for a long time and selling them to US companies. We may soon seen model railroading products, with Chinese brand names, filling the Athearn void on hobbyshop shelves. They won't be cheap, but they will be very high quality. Don't be surprised when you see their high-end products on the shelf right next to Kato's.

The Chinese are prepared to compete in our market place and the decision makers in our hobby industry have only themselves to blame.

[DSchmitt]

QUOTE: Originally posted by greengoose1

A few quick unrelated points.


Greed - human greed rules all. Supply and demand factors are tools of greed.

The economic result for each and every person in this world is less wealth as the wealth is divided up among all.

You have a very pessimistic view of the world.

You are wrong. The total wealth of the world is many times greater than at any time in the past. The "average" American today is wealthier than the kings of the past and there are a lot more of us. The majority of the peoples of the world are wealthier than their ansestors ever dreamed of being.

[Anonymous]

A few quick unrelated points.

Some of our CEOs allow deplorable working conditions in other countries. A steel mill in South America comes to mind.

China has a huge population. What to do with them?

Japan lost the brass production to Korea after teaching them how to.

Greed - human greed rules all. Supply and demand factors are tools of greed.

The economic result for each and every person in this world is less wealth as the wealth is divided up among all.

Did you ever notice how the active involved people in any issue that rises come out ahead? Those sitting back waiting for change as they complain and gripe about whatever will continue to do just that - gripe and complain.

What should an individual do? Stop and think by taking into account all factors and considerations and then act. It works.

If we as model railroaders take action as I have seen reported in these forums, then change can be made for the good albeit slowly for the most part.

In closing, change is inevitable in our world society. And we as individual members of this society fear change. This fear is reflected in many of the worlds problems of today as well as those of history. My suggestion is for each individual to get out of this box of fear and fly like an eagle if you will.

I now return to model railroading. [:)]

[Anonymous]

cjm

I agree totally. New Balance should be rewarded. Of course New Balance has an uphill battle against Nike etc. Why? Because they are making less profit on each sale due to their increased costs of employeeing American workers. It is this higher profit on unit sales that allows Nike etc to pay sports starts millions of dollars to wear their shoes which in turn leads to even more sales. (Of course Model Railroad manufacturers don't have spend money on sponsorship - unless Proto 2000 became the official engine of the 2005 NMRA convention!) What can New Balance do? How can it compete? The difference in cost to the manufacturer should lead to Nike etc to offer sneakers at a price break, but they have to dish out money for sponsorship etc. How much is that? Back in B-School I read a case study where one of the jeans companies in the early 80's was spending 75 cents of every dollar in sales in advertising! Since MR manufacturers don't have that problem, they can cut the cost to consumer and increase its sales that way.

Bottom line, I agree with you . . . I'd rather NB pay American workers 10 times what the Chinese get paid than advertise 10 times as much . . . . but what does the majority of the American public want? I dare say as soon as someone as Michael Jordon, Britney Spears and the Olsen twins put their names on something . . .people fall over themselves to buy it.

I want to buy American made MR products, but it is getting harder and harder to do so. There is another topic on this forum discussing how hard it is to get their hands on blue box and MDC kits. If model railroaders put their money where their mouths are, it would only make economic sense for the manufacturers to put American made products on the shelf.

It's up to us.

[Anonymous]

New Balance has (I think) about 6 plants throughout the USA, some of their shoes are made in China because they can't get all the materials they need over here. I'd rather NB pay American workers 10 times what the Chinese get paid than advertise 10 times as much, anyways.

[Anonymous]

Simon,

Maybe I didn't write that clearly. A previous post talked about how China is making tons of money from us and then capture one of our military planes and alleges that it is spying. I meant to say . . . no one is holding a gun to China's head and focing them to make stuff. Why are they? Because the profit margin can be higher to the manufacturer (and not just the brass . . but the stockholders also) even if the cost to the consumer is the same (or even lower). I do think, though that stuff made overseas does at time lead to lower costs to the consumer. How much a handmade brass engine cost the consumer if it were made in the U.S.? I dare say it would be more expensive than one made in China/Korea etc.

Also - I didn't know that New Balance were made in America. Of course what would their prices be if they advertised as much as Nike etc?

[Anonymous]

Dkelly:
A shoe, or anything else for the most part, would cost no more if it was made in the USA instead of China to consumers. New Balance makes some of their shoes in the USA, and they cost no more than Nikes, K-Swiss, Scethcers, etc. The whole reason companies go overseas is because they get cheap materials and labor over there, and once it get on American soil the company sells it for the price that a USA-made equivalent costs. The excess money goes into the company brass's pockets.

Simon 1966:

And there are 40 states with their welfare offices in India.[V]

[simon1966]

Beer and cigarettes [:D] According to the press release MO is the 20th state to open such an office.

[Anonymous]

Simon,

Very very interesting. Missouri is becoming proactive and chasing new markets for its products. It would be interesting to see what kind of stuff gets sold to China.

[simon1966]

Announced yesterday, the State of Missouri is opening an office in China. The stated reason for this is that the Chinese market represents the 5th largest export trading partner for MO business and they want to get a larger share. The Chinese market will very likely become the largest single export market for goods made in the USA within the next decade. As individuals, feel free to boycott Chinese made products, but don't expect US business to ignore this huge market opportunity.

[Anonymous]

China is making money off of us? And then they hold our plane hostage? Funny thing. I don't remember China forcing American companies to manufacture stuff there. I dare say that in the big scheme of stuff China is not making as much on each sneaker made there as this country would if it were made here. Manufacturers are there because they can increase their bottom lines by being there because of a higher profit margin and the fact that American consumers like the results of stuff being made there. (how much would a name brand sneaker cost if made here in America?)Political rallies? Write the manufacture? None of this works. If people truly want a manufacturer to stop doing business in a certain country . . . . say China, then there is a simple solution. Stop buying its product. You can write a CEO a hundred letters today . . . but it's a waste of time if you just turn around and buy the product anyways. These are corporations . .. . they are concerned with one thing . . . the bottom line.

[Anonymous]

cjm89 said: "That is exactly what "scares" me; 1. Someday everything in the USA will be foreign made, even Kellog's cereal is now made in Canada! (???)"

There is a huge Kellogs plant right here in Landisville ( Lancaster County ), PA They get so much in and out by Rail that N/S keep a crew there on site. So all is not lost. I live close by depending on which way the wind blows you smell Cornflakes, or Twizzlers ( Hershey Foods ) or the poop the spread on the fields. Dave