What's NOT Made in China?

[the-big-blow]

I have to comment on this. I have been struggling with the moral dilemma as of late with all the products being made in China. For the most part I have given up buying locomotives made anywhere but South Korea and japan. This has brought a re emphasis on my brass collecting days for the most part I am very happy with the locomotives I own. However Kato makes an excellent product and it is made in Japan and I still buy them.

[Roadtrp]

Year after year for the past 50 years we have imported more and more goods from overseas. And year after year, the American standard of living increases. I'm not too worried about it. If some Chinese guy wants to assemble plastic locomotives for 80 cents an hour, fine. It keeps the costs down for American consumers.

[:)]

[joseph2]

As far as I know Hobbytown of Boston locomotives and Campbell structure kits are still made here.A few years ago USA had sanctions against South Africa because of South Africa's human rights violations.China is more oppresive then South Africa ever was. Joe G.

[the-big-blow]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Roadtrp

the American standard of living increases.[:)]

Many modelers I know have been forced to take a paycut in half of what they were making. And I only weathered the storm in my profession by the good grace of God. DO you actually think that they will ever make the wage they were again? So I guess your right the standard of living is really increasing. I see many jobs in the employment section everyday. Hey take a 1/2 paycut just work two jobs(if you can find them). You probably weren't worth what we were paying you anyhow. Everything is costing less. I can buy a gallon of gas for only $2.00. Can't afford that $250 dollar sound equiped loco just put it on credit card. The last figure I heard that the trade deficit with China is 90 Billion, of which I heard they use for MILITARY spending.

[Anonymous]

China has actually been charged by the US Gov. for stealing design or trade secrets, or something like that, also Congress had a bill a while ago to illegalize trade with China.
I hope that bill passes, even if all of that stuff was just moved to production in Japan, Japan is a lot milder and more democratic country than China ever will be.

[Junctionfan]

I don't believe China is as bad as they are in the decade of Tianamin square. I still wouldn't want to live there because they are way too left-winged for my liking. They may go to democracy a few decades from now because they aren't too bad with folk in Hong Kong so there is hope for them.

As far as the products are concerned, as long as it runs good I will buy it. I don't mix politics with my hobby because I want to have fun; to hell with being politically correct all the time.

[the-big-blow]

By the way Overland models used to have a plant in China. Some time ago they closed it. I'm really glad someone else started this thread.

[grayfox1119]

This is a troubling dilema for many of us guys for sure. I believe we all would buy American "if" the products were here, but they are not so we must choose elsewhere, and that becomes a personal choice for each of us. I don't like what is happening in China for a single minute, but I also know that farmers are leaving their farms by the THOUSANDS to go work in the large cities. Why? Money. We may think it is meager, but try living on what a Chinese farmer has to live on for a year. So for a generation or two, they work in sweat shops, but then the next generations have it better and conditions change, and this WILL change China, believe me.
As for us here in America, yes, I came from a very humble cold water, no centralheat, frost on the INSIDE of the windows 3 decker mill house. My father and mother never owned a home his entire life, but they got me to college, and I workedi n Hi tech, semiconductor processing. I do not know what the future holds for our grandchildren (three of my children are in Hi-Tech now) but I do know this, education is the key to success, I don't care WHAT field you enter, Mechancial, Electrical, Chemical, Civil, Teaching, Aeronautics, Medical, Law, Dental, the opportunities to make it here in America is real. By the way guys, have any of you seen the Travel Channel series with John Ratenburger, Made in America, airing each Tuesday at 9 EST? If not , watch it, it is all about American companies making it in America. You will have renewed pride in our fellow American workers.
Have agood evening guys, keep the steam pressure up, there is a big hill ahead of us.

***

[coal drag]

QUOTE: Originally posted by bostonsrock

QUOTE: Originally posted by willy6

i don't think you have a choice when it comes to "China". i think the only thing on my layout not made in China is the wood for benchwork and i wonder about that.

Canada has a lot of good softwood plywood, CHEAP! Come up and get some.

Is it 4'X8', or is it metric ????? How much a sheet and what are the tariffs to bring it south of the border ???

[ctyclsscs]

Just to set the record straight - as far as I know, ALL Stewart engines except some of their Baldwin switchers are made completely in the US. Even the Baldwin switchers may be by now.

Also, a lot of structure kits are still made here. DPM, RIX (Pikestuff and Smalltown) Grandt Line, Great West Models, SLM, AM Models and us (City Classics) are all still made here in the US.

Jim

[Anonymous]

I'm really tired of hearing it's made in China. This has to stop long term it is really going to effect our economy. I'm a mould-maker and this threat hangs over our heads all the time. They can build moulds much cheaper over there than we can and there technology is suprisingly good. I work for a major company and our Gm plus others from the Corporation went to China to view there shops and techniques. If we're not careful, five years down the road we'll be out of a job and wondering what happened.
I don't see any solution othere than the Government putting a stop to it. Not only does it affect plastics but every other function of life, if they can build it cheaper somewhere else then there going to do it, which will put alot of people out of work.
Governments need to industrialize the world to help Countries catch up.

[ericsp]

QUOTE: Originally posted by SILVERCHAMPION

ERICSP; Are you sure that Athearn are still made in the US. Athearn did sale out.

Yes, I sent them an e-mail on July 21, 2004 asking about their "Blue Box" kits. The next day they sent me an e-mail saying thet will continue to produce them in their Carson, CA. plant as long as there is a demand for them.

Here is the quote.

QUOTE:
Thank-you for taking the time to send in your inquiry regarding our regular "Blue Box" kit product line. Please note that we have no intentions to discontinue producing our regular line "Blue Box" items. We continue to produce these items on a daily basis here at our plant and will continue to do so as long there is a sufficient demand for those products. We do not have a list of what is currently being produced available. We can answer specific questions regarding whether or not a particular product will be made this year.

[Anonymous]

Well, maybe we ought to keep the jobs here and subsidize them like we do for farmers!! I have been milling that idea around for a while now, as they just reported a few weeks ago that the U S pays 50,000 farmers nearly $7 billion to sit on their asses and do nothing. That's $140,000 a year each!!! To reflect?? How about survival of the fittest? Let the healthy farms, the profitable farms survive. Let the others fail. After all, they are failing anyway.
Auto assembly plant workers get over $25 an hour plus great benefits to stand around all day. One of my friends works at Ford. They have 2 guys punch in the other 12 that never show up. They rotate each week, so they only work a week in 7. To top it off, ANY IDIOT can work at an auto plant. Why such high wages?
Doctors and hospitals make great money, but they always check to see you have insurance or that you can pay before rendering service. Read the HYPOCRATIC OATH and show me one doctor that practices it.
Most of the modern worlds great inventions were invented here, but lost through greed. We all want to earn the BIG BUCKS, but don't want to pay for it. I buy what I can afford that appeals to me. Eventually (1000 years?) everyone will be considered equal, and maybe they will stop taking from each other and start taking care of each other.

Sorry, my $.05 worth.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by bigblow69

By the way Overland models used to have a plant in China. Some time ago they closed it. I'm really glad someone else started this thread.

I can't justify paying the high prices that Athearn and everyother manufacture requires for their now imported junk from China that used to be made here, keep in mind nothing has changed besides the price from $5.00 to $15-$20. Also keep in mind the people in china are not making more than $0.40 a day. Oh ya their standard of living is great.

For those of you who don't think that it matters where your stuff is made, remember that when you get your pink slip cause your company is moving to China, India or some other third world country!

PEOPLE TAKE OFF YOUR ROSE COLORED GLASSES!!! YOU HAVE TO CARE WHERE YOUR STUFF IS MADE, AND IT BETTER BE IN THE USA!!!!

[coal drag]

QUOTE: Originally posted by DMIR230

QUOTE: Originally posted by bigblow69

By the way Overland models used to have a plant in China. Some time ago they closed it. I'm really glad someone else started this thread.

I can't justify paying the high prices that Athearn and everyother manufacture requires for their now imported junk from China that used to be made here, keep in mind nothing has changed besides the price from $5.00 to $15-$20. Also keep in mind the people in china are not making more than $0.40 a day. Oh ya their standard of living is great.

For those of you who don't think that it matters where your stuff is made, remember that when you get your pink slip cause your company is moving to China, India or some other third world country!

PEOPLE TAKE OFF YOUR ROSE COLORED GLASSES!!! YOU HAVE TO CARE WHERE YOUR STUFF IS MADE, AND IT BETTER BE IN THE USA!!!!

Yet another reason to vote AGAINST Bush !!!

[DSchmitt]

QUOTE: Originally posted by coal drag

QUOTE: Originally posted by DMIR230

QUOTE: Originally posted by bigblow69

By the way Overland models used to have a plant in China. Some time ago they closed it. I'm really glad someone else started this thread.

I can't justify paying the high prices that Athearn and everyother manufacture requires for their now imported junk from China that used to be made here, keep in mind nothing has changed besides the price from $5.00 to $15-$20. Also keep in mind the people in china are not making more than $0.40 a day. Oh ya their standard of living is great.

For those of you who don't think that it matters where your stuff is made, remember that when you get your pink slip cause your company is moving to China, India or some other third world country!

PEOPLE TAKE OFF YOUR ROSE COLORED GLASSES!!! YOU HAVE TO CARE WHERE YOUR STUFF IS MADE, AND IT BETTER BE IN THE USA!!!!

Yet another reason to vote AGAINST Bush !!!

What has Bush have to do with it? This hasn't just happened since he took office. It would take extreemly hig tarrifs or severe trade restrictions to stop it. I You won't get them from either major political party.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by DSchmitt

QUOTE: Originally posted by coal drag

QUOTE: Originally posted by DMIR230

QUOTE: Originally posted by bigblow69

By the way Overland models used to have a plant in China. Some time ago they closed it. I'm really glad someone else started this thread.

I can't justify paying the high prices that Athearn and everyother manufacture requires for their now imported junk from China that used to be made here, keep in mind nothing has changed besides the price from $5.00 to $15-$20. Also keep in mind the people in china are not making more than $0.40 a day. Oh ya their standard of living is great.

For those of you who don't think that it matters where your stuff is made, remember that when you get your pink slip cause your company is moving to China, India or some other third world country!

PEOPLE TAKE OFF YOUR ROSE COLORED GLASSES!!! YOU HAVE TO CARE WHERE YOUR STUFF IS MADE, AND IT BETTER BE IN THE USA!!!!

Yet another reason to vote AGAINST Bush !!!

What has Bush have to do with it? This hasn't just happened since he took office. It would take extreemly hig tarrifs or severe trade restrictions to stop it. I You won't get them from either major political party.

Well Bush is not helping but he is not the start of the problem. Our wonderful government, CEO's and the American public are to blame for out problem. CEO's want stuff to be made cheap so they can have more money, rather than giving it to an American worker, the general public wants things cheap so they dont have to spend all of their money on one thing, Government because they do not care that the American company has to deal with the EPA, labor, high taxes, while the company in China or someother 3rd world doesnt have to worry about pollution or labor, if their labor is a problem that trouble maker becomes an organ donor. No Bush in not completely to blame but neither party in our government is a good choice. Ok enough about politics.

[Anonymous]

This is an interesting topic, to keep it rail rail related, I wonder when GE and or EMD move to China?

[Roadtrp]

I know I won't change the mind of the buy American folks, but study after study has shown that free trade is GOOD for both the American economy and the American worker. Remember Ross Perot and his 'big sucking sound' of jobs going to Mexico because of NAFTA?

Never happened.

Yes, some lower level assembly jobs DID go to Mexico. But more jobs were created in America because of the act, and they were generally at a higher level than the jobs that left. I buy American when all other things are equal, but I don't know that I would pay extra just to buy American.

The prejudice being shown now against the Chinese is the exact same as the prejudice shown against the Japanese when they started importing to the U.S. over 40 years ago. We've made our peace with Japan. It will happen with China too. Just give it time.

[:)]

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Roadtrp

I know I won't change the mind of the buy American folks, but study after study has shown that free trade is GOOD for both the American economy and the American worker. Remember Ross Perot and his 'big sucking sound' of jobs going to Mexico because of NAFTA?

Never happened.

Yes, some lower level assembly jobs DID go to Mexico. But more jobs were created in America because of the act, and they were generally at a higher level than the jobs that left. I buy American when all other things are equal, but I don't know that I would pay extra just to buy American.

The prejudice being shown now against the Chinese is the exact same as the prejudice shown against the Japanese when they started importing to the U.S. over 40 years ago. We've made our peace with Japan. It will happen with China too. Just give it time.

[:)]

Make peace with Commies???!!!!!!!

I thought America was for democracy, but how come our biggest trading partner is COMMUNIST??? Do you know how the Chinese get treated by their government over there???

And so-called "free trade"; (read: Let's (India and China) Kill your country), is good for America??

Tell the people that know how to make molds, dies, machinists, industrial workers, steel workers that! America needs industry-It is what America grew and prospered on!!

Look at the prosperity of once-industrial centers, like Chicago, St. Louis, Pittsburg, and others; then compare that with what they were like 60-50 years ago!! Yes, jobs that long ago were less well-paying, but everything was much, much less expensive too!! Not today! The Chinese who make so much of our products in America get paid what we did in the 1920s and '30s, yet once the stuff gets over here, instantly the company charges for the product what it cost when it was still made over here!![:(!][:(!][:0][V]

And I WOULD pay more for a product that's USA made, I have before and will plenty of other times...
I would type more, but I don't want to start a "flame war", All I want to do is prove to you that America needs industry!

Oh, and think around for a while about what it would be like to be forced to train your foreign replacement, then have to go to Wally World or some other minimum wage job, I don't think it would be fun, and I don't care to ever find out, either.


[:(!][:(!][:(!][:(!][:0][:0][V][V]

[DSchmitt]

Economies are are constantly changing. All the government can do is protect business and/or jobs through taffiffs, embargos and sometimes subsidies. (Proper subsidies can have a good effect, for instance after WW1 Britian subsidized certain classes of trucks which lead to improved vehicles and enabled speedy mechanization of the British army when needed for WW 2) Protectionism is an attempt to stop change. It may work for awhile, but in the end it leads to a stagnet economy and makes the problems it was trying to solve worse than they otherwise would have been.

China must provide more than just a cheap work force. It must provide a proper (relatively free but fair) business climate and an educated productive work force which feels a sense of achievement and hope for their and their childrens futures. So far Communists countries (like other repressive dictatorships) have not had a very good track record in the long run. Initally people under such regimes have a lot of faith in them (a period that may be prolonged by keeping the people ignorant of the world) and because of this faith their econimies seem to work well in the short term. As the people learn more about the world they loose the faith and desire a better system.

Communism looks better to certain realitvely well off spoiled people in the west (and the poor in brutal non-Communists dictatorships) than it does to the people who actually have to live under its heel.

[simon1966]

QUOTE:
Look at the prosperity of once-industrial centers, like Chicago, St. Louis, Pittsburg, and others; then compare that with what they were like 60-50 years ago!!

Chicago is booming, gowing like crazy and is full of high tech and service orientated companies. St. Louis has undergone significant urban renewal in the down town and is also the home to high tech, biotech and is working hard to attract more of these types of business. I have friends in Pittsburgh that tell me that this city is finally starting to break away from independance on the old industries. I suspect that all 3 of these cities are significantly better off today than 60 years ago.

Industries ebb and flow. Jobs are created in new fields.

In 1920, my wife's grandfather moved to the USA from Croatia to work the mines of central Illinois. He died in the mines, crushed between coal cars down the shaft. This industry basically does not exist in central Illinois. Better coal is produced more efficiently in other parts of the USA and the World and other power sources have gained greater prominence. Decended from this one poor imigrant there are now 21 American families working in the following industries:

Chiropractor x2
High tech medical sales
Office furniture supply
State benefits department
Tree farming
US Airforce civil contractor repairing landing gear
Insurance underwriter
Software developer
Auto sales
Etc.

I guarantee that everyone of the decendents is significantly better off, working in jobs that did not exist 50 years ago.

Industries die, strong economies like the USA, replace these older industries with better paying higher tech jobs.

The US economy employs many more people today than 50 years ago.

[andrechapelon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by DMIR230

QUOTE: Originally posted by bigblow69

By the way Overland models used to have a plant in China. Some time ago they closed it. I'm really glad someone else started this thread.

I can't justify paying the high prices that Athearn and everyother manufacture requires for their now imported junk from China that used to be made here, keep in mind nothing has changed besides the price from $5.00 to $15-$20. Also keep in mind the people in china are not making more than $0.40 a day. Oh ya their standard of living is great.

For those of you who don't think that it matters where your stuff is made, remember that when you get your pink slip cause your company is moving to China, India or some other third world country!

PEOPLE TAKE OFF YOUR ROSE COLORED GLASSES!!! YOU HAVE TO CARE WHERE YOUR STUFF IS MADE, AND IT BETTER BE IN THE USA!!!!

That last statement is rather ironic considering you've advocated in another venue buying Korean made brass rather than Chinese made plastic . Korean brass/Chinese plastic, the stuff still comes in from overseas.

It used to be Japanese brass, then the Japanese priced themselves out of the market. The Koreans are bidding fair to price themselves out of the market.. My guess is that the next brass supplier will be Bangladesh.

There's irony all around, regardless. I have a Japanese brand Sharp TV that was made in Taiwan.

Andre

Andre

[orsonroy]

QUOTE: Originally posted by simon1966
This industry basically does not exist in central Illinois. Better coal is produced more efficiently in other parts of the USA and the World and other power sources have gained greater prominence.

Actually, nothing of the above quote is true. Powder River basin coal is lower BTU coal than Illinois coal, meaning it contains less energy than Illinois coal. (the problem with Illinois coal is it's high sulfur content). well over 60% of the US' energy production comes from coal plants, so "other power sources" still have a long way to go before they even hope to catch up (natural gas and nuclear power are #2 and #3)

And China is buying Illinois coal as fast as that can. Illinois mines DID mostly shut down after the series of strikes in 1958-1970, but the industry never went away completely, and they're opening new mines as we speak. I've seen two new coal mines being opened this year; one SW of Lasalle, IL, and one in Dennison, Ohio.

[simon1966]

Ray, I stand corrected as noted, but the point I was trying to make is that coal mining in Central Illinois is by no means the employer that it was. The area NE of St. Louis that my wife's grandfather worked had over 60 mines. Today there is 1.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dougal

This is an interesting topic, to keep it rail rail related, I wonder when GE and or EMD move to China?

GE already has moved some if not all of the engineering of the locomotive division to India. So the ball is already moving.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by simon1966

QUOTE:
Look at the prosperity of once-industrial centers, like Chicago, St. Louis, Pittsburg, and others; then compare that with what they were like 60-50 years ago!!

Chicago is booming, gowing like crazy and is full of high tech and service orientated companies. St. Louis has undergone significant urban renewal in the down town and is also the home to high tech, biotech and is working hard to attract more of these types of business. I have friends in Pittsburgh that tell me that this city is finally starting to break away from independance on the old industries. I suspect that all 3 of these cities are significantly better off today than 60 years ago.

Industries ebb and flow. Jobs are created in new fields.

In 1920, my wife's grandfather moved to the USA from Croatia to work the mines of central Illinois. He died in the mines, crushed between coal cars down the shaft. This industry basically does not exist in central Illinois. Better coal is produced more efficiently in other parts of the USA and the World and other power sources have gained greater prominence. Decended from this one poor imigrant there are now 21 American families working in the following industries:

Chiropractor x2
High tech medical sales
Office furniture supply
State benefits department
Tree farming
US Airforce civil contractor repairing landing gear
Insurance underwriter
Software developer
Auto sales
Etc.

I guarantee that everyone of the decendents is significantly better off, working in jobs that did not exist 50 years ago.

Industries die, strong economies like the USA, replace these older industries with better paying higher tech jobs.

The US economy employs many more people today than 50 years ago.

Ok they have more jobs but what are they paying? Is the pay equal to what say a Pittsburgh steelmill working is/was making? Better paying?? no they are not, and guess what high tech jobs are on their way out the door to India, don't be fooled. As I said before, I work for a construction contractor that does allot of work with GE, GE brings in people from India they pay for their house, schooling, car, everything and then they train here, then send them and all of there equipment back to India. Your so called high tech jobs are leaving as well, the blue collar jobs were just the beginning of the trend. Now that 99% of our industry is gone forever, now they are moving the so called high tech jobs out.

Now service jobs, come on, how many coffee shops do we need in the US? Sure cities are building but how many buildings are full? It would surprise you if you knew. Also service jobs do not pay like the industrial jobs used to.

As you said that you suspect, which is true you are doing the suspecting, but go to Pittsburgh or Homestead or McKeesport, or how about Bethlehem PA or Detroit? I have been in those towns, Pittsburgh is a hurting, Homestead is a ghost town McKeesport is pretty empty and so is Bethlehem. I am sure that the people living in those towns would like to have their steel mills back and other cities would like to have their big industrial plants back. Just think of the tax money that those mills brought into a town or city. Those cities are hurting for money cause the mills and plants are gone forever.


Sure we may have more people employed today but that is because the average person is working more than one job. Just thing back when this country was an industrial super power, only one person had to work, the wife could stay home, or the husband could, now both have to work to try and make ends meet.

All I can say is I hope that we never have a war against us, cause we will be screwed!!!!

[the-big-blow]

My friend purchased an item that was supposed to made here locally. Much to his surprise the item was made, you guessed it, China. We talked to for some time over dinner and we agree that all what generations passed fought against, child labor, poor working conditions, prisoners as workers are all being practiced with total impunity in China and India. Now I don't know for certain EVERY factory is treating its workers but some time back there was a National Geographic article on China and I was saddened how pollution, exploitation are running rampant.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by DMIR230

QUOTE: Originally posted by dougal

This is an interesting topic, to keep it rail rail related, I wonder when GE and or EMD move to China?

GE already has moved some if not all of the engineering of the locomotive division to India. So the ball is already moving.

That makes me just plain sick!!!!![:(!][:(!][:(!][V][V]

Alco and Baldwin, even Lima, I wi***hey were still here, still practicing 1940's business trends, which BTW were a heck of a lot better than business practices today.

am getting close to NEVER even buying a foreign made model locomotive, which is as far as I can see the only thing you cannot usually buy that's USA-made for a layout.
In fact, if I could build my own, or if Bowser or Stewart came out with RTR steam, I would never care to buy another Chinese-made engine again!![:(!][:(!][:(!]

The more I see the word China, or outsourcing, or foreign-made, the madder I get...

And BTW, yes jobs are increasing, but those polls also say the middle-class standard of living as well as wages are decrasing!! Us Middle-class people are the ones who really keep America running, yet this is what America allows our employers to do.

[darth9x9]

Hey, I wasn't made in China!!!

BC