I have been fortunate to have a good job and make a deceit amount of money. So, I can afford most of the items that I need for my modeling hobby. But, what about the average, say young individual who is married with a few kids and is just starting out in life? Locomotives are NOT cheap!! Although there are some cheap locomotives. And what about rolling stock? Looks like most offerings these days are about $25 a piece. Then, there is the electrical component. Certainly seems like DCC is the only way to go these days. You factor in lumber, tools, paint, scenery material and structures, well that is quiet an investment!!
It is no wonder that the hobby is getting to be one dominated by older men (40's and older). It may also be the reason why attracting younger individuals or families is a problem. What is going to happen to our great hobby when we take "the last train west"? I am in my 50's and am one of the younger folks in my area. I do have a 6 year old nephew who loves trains and his parents are supporting him to a limited degree in the hobby. I do what I can. Bring him to local train events, given him my old copies of Model Railroader and Trains magazines, buy him some rolling stock, and help HIM build a few simple structures for his small layout.
Something needs to be done to keep our hobby growing and bring in new people. Remember, the more model railroaders buying items, the more items there will be and the less expensive they will cost to the rest of us!!
Just my 2 cents worth. What is your opinion or ideas on the subject??
Craig North Carolina
Here we go again, right on schedule.
Since today is supposedly the beginning of the end of the world, the "problem" should disappear shortly.
Andre
Well, you are right!! At 6 PM, today, it will all be over. The GREAT NEWS is that Brass Trains is having a 10-30% off sale on over 900 brass items!! Going on now!! Buy and charge all you want, the bill will never arrive before THE END!!
andrechapelon Here we go again, right on schedule. Since today is supposedly the beginning of the end of the world, the "problem" should disappear shortly. Andre
LOL
If that is the case, spend it while you got it.
Seriously though, and yes the topic has been raised many times before, the hobby has grown very expensive, putting serious modeling out of the reach of many. Sure, you can buy a small train set and some sectional track on the cheap. But, if you really want to venture into something more elaborate, it costs a small fortune.
Rich
Alton Junction
Rich,
I am not complaining for myself. I would like to see other, young people become involved in thisGreat Hobby of ours. It is sad that it is so expensive for a lot of these people, that is all.
Aikidomaster I have been fortunate to have a good job and make a deceit amount of money.
I have been fortunate to have a good job and make a deceit amount of money.
Really ??? What is deceitful about the amount of money you are earning ?
Complaining on this forum about the cost of the hobby is a waste of bandwidth, IMO.
The importers/manufacturers are well aware of the effect of price points on their customers. But which corners do you cut to cheapen a product? One of the causes of Lionel's bankruptcy in the 1960s was said to be the cheapening of their product in an effort to keep prices competitive. Bachmann standard, Model Power, and similar are all derided in these forums for their low end products. No "serious" mr should be caught owning one of these, cries the gallery time and time again.
As the OP pointed out, there are cheaper locomotives. There are junker cars by the dozens at shows and consignment tables. There are paper sides for cardstock building available as a free download. Brass track can be had for cheap, or you can lay your own to save money. Probably the best learning experience I had as a young adult on a very cramped budget was laying my own track. Will the resulting layout match those in the pages of MR? Not likely. But it can still be a lot of fun dressing up and fixing up those cheap locomotives and cars.
Another way to save is to consider limiting the scope of your layout. There are 3 resource constraints for a home layout - time, money, and space. A shelf layout or a 4x6 just doesn't cost what a basement filler does. The small layout only "needs" one or two locomotives and a dozen cars at most. Less than 20 turnouts total. And room for perhaps 5-6 structures.
Build kits and/or scratch build to stretch the budget to the time available. A Labelle kit at $20, plus another $10 for trucks, couplers, paint, etc, will take a lot more than 5 minutes to unbox and set it on the layout. If I have a $40 monthly hobby budget, the Labelle will take a good part of the month to build and paint. The RTR will take 5 minutes. What do I do with the rest of my hobby time for the month? With a small layout, building a dozen cars from craftsman kits is not the end of the world.
None of these ideas are new. They were standard practice for the average mr in the late '50s and early '60s. Even back then, there was many a model railroader who made do without brass locomotives because they were out of his price range.
Ultimately, it's the mentality with which you approach the hobby. If you have to have the latest and greatest RTR, it's pretty expensive. If you really want more locomotives, cars, and structures than your layout can use, you have to pay the piper. If you are determined to build a multi-deck 20ft x 30ft layout, then hopefully you considered the cost before you started. If you want a layout that will fill the pages in Model Railroader, it's not going to be done on the cheap.
Part of Kalmbach's business model is to sell advertising. Advertising is designed to get you to buy product. Model Railroader does an excellent job of tying it all together - here's the great layout you can have by buying these products. But it's not the only way to enjoy the hobby.
Fred W out.
Probably my ability to spell.
I should run for Congress or state government. That would be making a deceitful living. Actually, I have some morals and a few Christian beliefs that would not allow that kind of thing.
They were two great train shows in North Carolina i went to and they had great prices.
Russell
For people like me who are on a small fixed income (less than $700 a month in my case) looking at the new locos in tyhe Walthers flyer induces severe sticker shock. The only way I could afford one of those new Proto2000 E units is if I saved for many months or found one at a very severe price cut. So I've turned my focus away from them and now buy the cheaper locos which are usually under $100, usually Bachmann DCC OnBoard. I see in May's Walthers flyer that the new Walthers Trainline GP9M's are under $60. Standard DC but you can't have everything but I am looking at them with some interest.
Dr. Frankendiesel aka Scott Running BearSpace Mouse for president!15 year veteran fire fighterCollector of Apple //e'sRunning Bear EnterprisesHistory Channel Club life member.beatus homo qui invenit sapientiam
I think the short answer is no.
The Model Railroad Hobby is not expensive when you compare it to comparable hobbies. Take R/C for instance. That has a HUGE following for the lower income male crowd. Sure, you start with a car for $300 or so, but all those extra's add up quick. I expect most have several thousand invested. Annual income I would expect from this crowd may approach $30,000 a year but not much more.
Now take an HO train layout. For $1,500 you could have one nice start up including DCC. I would expect wood and materials could be had for cheap if you looked around abit.
The big problem is this group of men age 18-30 is not interested in Trains.The fun factor for R/C racing is immediate and fun. Your'e talking about the Nascar crowd. I wonder what the ratio is for users between R/C and model railroading.
richhotrain ....Sure, you can buy a small train set and some sectional track on the cheap. But, if you really want to venture into something more elaborate, it costs a small fortune. Rich
....Sure, you can buy a small train set and some sectional track on the cheap. But, if you really want to venture into something more elaborate, it costs a small fortune.
The mindset of not seeing the potential of the train set and sectional track is part of what drives the hobby expenditures. The traditional way to overcome the boredom of watching the train chase its tail on an oval on plywood is to build a big, complex layout. After all, that's the path the guys with those fantastic layouts in Model Railroader chose. And they are happy, aren't they?
Nobody - Model Railroader included, especially with their project layouts - sits down with a beginner and shows him how to enjoy his 1st layout that he just built. No where in the directions does it say that you need a Kadee coupler height gauge and all your couplers need to be adjusted height-wise for reliable operation. Nobody says to check all your wheelsets with the NMRA gauge and your eye, and fix or replace all that aren't spot on.
Even with the perfunctory last article on operating the project layout, preparations to make switching enjoyable are left out. How are you going to uncouple the cars? How does one go about installing uncoupling ramps? Preventing unwanted uncouplings? What is the technique for using picks or skewers so the cars don't derail in the process? What shape of skewer or pick works best? Can you couple/uncouple on the curves? Do you have a control system capable of operating the engines reliably at switching speeds? Are your track and wheels clean enough to do so? How does one clean, lube, and tune a train set loco to run at 5 scale MPH without stalling? Do you need a walk-around controller to switch successfully? Do you need more than 1 jack for the controller? How does it get wired in?
My point is that switching infrastructure gets very short shrift for beginners. Yet even a basic oval with a couple of spurs can provide reasonable switching opportunities for a while. Certainly it's less boring than watching the tail-chaser. And it's a lot less expensive alternative to alleviating boredom than the multi-deck continuous run or the 100 locomotive collection. But it doesn't sell all those new engines.
my thoughts and experiences on alternatives, but it's your choice
Fred W
Aikidomaster,
I completely agree with you. I am 14, so of course I can't get a job yet. So it is hard for me to get money for my layout. After all, Christmas and birthdays only come once a year. Right now I am saving up for either a MoPac SD70ACe or an NCE Powercab. I haven't decided which would make a better birthday present . The hobby is hard on people who have no regular income. But we are model railroaders, and "it takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse"
Acela
The timbers beneath the rails are not the only ties that bind on the railroad. --Robert S. McGonigal
andrechapelon Since today is supposedly the beginning of the end of the world, the "problem" should disappear shortly. Andre
So, what would you put at the end of your track at the end of the world? Since you only need one, would you splurge on a Tomar bumper, remembering, of course, to gap the track before you get there? Or would you use one of the Walthers plastic ones, which look very nice properly painted and weathered.? How about just a pile of ties, or ballast?
Or maybe no bumper at all. Just let the trains run off the end, crash to the floor and join you in the afterlife. Or is there, as the Hitchikers' Guide suggests, a Roundhouse at the End of the Universe?
No end of the world for me. My layout features continuous running.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
Aikidomaster Rich, I am not complaining for myself. I would like to see other, young people become involved in thisGreat Hobby of ours. It is sad that it is so expensive for a lot of these people, that is all.
Well,If one pays full MSRP then yes its costly but,if one shops on line,uses e-Bay,HO yard sale or N Scale yard sale then there are deals like $49.95 locomotives from Atlas(Trainman) and Athearn.We still have Accurail kits..
The sky is falling only if you pay full MSRP.
-------
You want a cheap hobby? Take up catfishin' and carpin'..
Less then $200.00 in gear will sit you up for several years of catin' and carpin' and other then buying new line, hooks or sinkers from time to time there's very little costs.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Does it matter really? According to comedian Lewis Black, he found the end of the universe when he found 2 Starbucks catty-corner from each other in Houston.
Well, space is supposed to be curved, so it's at least plausible.
If you stay satisfied with 2 or 3 engines and don't run trains longer than 10 cars and don't have to have multiple sidings with car after car then it is manageable
51% share holder in the ME&O ( Wife owns the other 49% )
ME&O
I have had several hobbies and interests over the years. Probably the cheapest was reading science fiction. Fishing got expensive, so did Astronomy. If I did a good job of maintaining them and doing much of my own work so that a good road bike would last, cycling is relatively inexpensive except for the initial purchases. Same as skateboarding, cross-country skiing....the ones requiring physical exertion can be quite doable. The more engineering and electronics, or the more hand-assembly their is, or both, those will always be costly. Add exotic materails, double the costs.
Ma Nature doesn't have a rule about hobbies in her Book. There is one about all things being possible, but it adds that something else must change at the same time. Often it will not be for the better. IOW, very few of us get to have it all.
Crandell
I'm too busy getting ready for some post-rapture looting at my local LHS to read all the replies, so excuse me if this has been covered.
Most people today seem to want very realistic, detailed layouts, even beginners. I think that taste is fed in us by the hobby mags, Hollywood, Disneyland, planned communities, shopping malls, etc.. We (as a society) are conditioned to think perfection is the goal. And with today's technology, that is indeed within reach for a price.
Because with our economy and lifestyle, as Americans anyway, TIME is the most precious commodity and so many guys and gals see RTR as the only way to go and get the results they desire. And the global business climate has split many (maybe most) consumer goods into two categories - affordable, yet junk, and expensive, really good stuff. The middle ground is missing in many cases. I think a lot of beginners start with the affordable stuff and find it disappointing in many aspects and drop out of the hobby because it is not meeting their high expectations they have in their imagination for their layouts, and often they don't find resources like this forum where "veterans" can school them in ways to do things in a satisfying, yet fiscally responsible way.
Full disclosure - I'm guilty of everything I wrote myself, on occasion, so I know whereof I speak.
Sean
HO Scale CSX Modeler
BRAKIE You want a cheap hobby? Take up catfishin' and carpin'..
Carping seems to already be the primary hobby of many of the people posting on this forum. Few of them seem to do much modeling in comparison to the volume of kvetching and handwringing.
Layout Design GalleryLayout Design Special Interest Group
Everything appears expensive because you (the general you) remember when things were valued differently. A paperback book was $5.99 15 years ago. Now they're $7.99. That's a 24% price increase. On my desk in front of me, i have a 2011 and 1998 issue of MR.
Trainworld lists (these are all Bachmann):
Niagara for $59.95 in 1998. Its $79.95 with DCC in 2011. 24% increase.
Gandy Dancer (remember that thing?) for $12.99. Its now $23.99. 45%
the N&W J for $59.95. Its is now $99.99 with DCC. 40%
That's quite a range of variation in increases. I'm having some trouble finding data, but I know for a fact that video game equipment has suffered the same increases. The Nintendo N64 came out around that time and ran about $120. The xbox 360 is in the $200 area and the PS3 is $300. A 12 pack of Coke has easily taken a 40% increase over the same period. That's just how a mature economy works.
Model Railroading has always been expensive and some what of a luxury hobby, ALWAYS.
I remember when I was a teenager and didn't have much money and my parents controlled how I spent what little I had, getting ANY trains was like pulling teeth. My choice was mainly limited to Athearn and I remember drooling over even the old blue box kit engines and thinking how expensive they were at around $18 or 20 each back in the mid to late 1970's. I begged for an SP SD45 for Christmas and had to do everything right so Santa would bring me one. It was a fat nose SD 45 but at the time it was the cats meow.
Yes, for a guy with a wife and kids and bills, then obtaining a sizable fleet of good quality engines like Atlas and rolling stock would be a very tall order. You would only be able to have a small layout with a few trains. That why when I feel sorry for myself for not being able to buy 3 of this engine or 3 of that engine, I have to remind myself of the 115 engines and hundreds of rolling stock I do have and count my blessings. There are a lot of people in this current economy like the fellow on a $700 fixed income who would struggle to buy a new Atlas loco and save for a long time. After nearly 2 years of unemployment and having to still pay for my daughters private school tuition (something wrong with this picture eh?) I have reached the point that buying even one non-sound Genesis loco is a big deal. I do need to sell a few things off to raise some more cash like that KATO SP C44-9W that is out of my era etc but I can't complain.
To answer the original post, model railroading is too expensive but its always been that case. There may have been a few years of high prosperity in the US where we could have more toys than in the past, but we are starting to pay the piper now for all those years of properity and high living with super high US debt and everything.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
Perspective has a lot to do with the question of expensive hobbies.When I was a kid, everything was expensive, and I couldn't afford any of it. You got instant gratification in a hobby by buying things. Expensive then, and still expensive today. I also used to look at those big dream sized layouts, wishing I could have one of them. I only had to wait 50 years for mine. Everything up to then was learning how to do it right.MR's competitor magazine, Railroad Model Craftsman, has that name for a reason. It meant that you could become a craftsman and learn modeling skills, and they were going to help you do just that with the articles published. Now days, the craftsman has given way to the RTR (Ready-to-Run) modeler, if you can call him a modeler. No more craftsman. MR has shifted it's focus on the ready-to-run. You can't learn a modeling skill by buying everything. You can only learn by reading and actually doing.When I was a kid, before color TV and video games, most of us kids built plastic kits. Some of us even built those dreaded stick-built airplane kits. That was fun and taught us skills that we used in model railroading. It taught us patients, and to save our money for the things we really want, and not everything is easy.The same thing holds true today. You can spend the money and buy it, if you can. Or, you can build kits and learn something. That something being that you can build your own models from plans and drawings. Instantly? No.
Elmer.
The above is my opinion, from an active and experienced Model Railroader in N scale and HO since 1961.
(Modeling Freelance, Eastern US, HO scale, in 1962, with NCE DCC for locomotive control and a stand alone LocoNet for block detection and signals.) http://waynes-trains.com/ at home, and N scale at the Club.
Yes, the hobby is expensive, so is owning a yacht or classic car, don't worry about it, if you can't buy everything in sight, make it, or do like I do, hit those train shows and pick up all the castoffs of the guys with a wad of money, I picked up a box of rail cars at a show for $12.00, got 15 cars in mint, used, wrecked condition ( there were 3 brand new boxcars included) and piles of other very usable parts to assemble a bunch of flatcars from old boxcars, water cars from old oil cars, made some log gondolas out of seemingly wrecked boxcars etc. etc. etc.
If you can't afford to buy an expensive sailboat, don't hang around the local yacht club, if you can't afford the 50 brass locomotives that lots of people seem to have, buy some used stuff and use your imagination and talk to some layout owners who are doing the same thing, you will be in for a pleasant surprise, don't worry about the guys who aren't buying the latest $1,200.00 locomotive because it's $25.00 too much, hang in there.
andrechapelon Or maybe no bumper at all. Just let the trains run off the end, crash to the floor and join you in the afterlife. Or is there, as the Hitchikers' Guide suggests, a Roundhouse at the End of the Universe? Does it matter really? According to comedian Lewis Black, he found the end of the universe when he found 2 Starbucks catty-corner from each other in Houston. Well, space is supposed to be curved, so it's at least plausible. Andre
Try Vancouver, B.C. there is (were) 4 Starbucks opposing each other at an intersection downtown.
Yes, it can be expensive, but when you have worked on it awhile you have something there. Many things that we can spend money on today, use it, it's gone. This hobby is one we can enjoy when we want to and expand when we can afford to. When we are done the resale value may not be high, but we have enjoyed the trip and can hang on to it as long as we possibly can.
Maybe there should be more emphisis on making things from natural materials for the folks that can't afford the more expensive items. In the past many nice looking layouts were made using dyed sawdust and other natural materials for scenery. Sure, some of the new stuff may look more realistic and be easier to use, but for many of us the enjoyment is in the building not the running of trains. Not that we don't enjoy running trains, but we enjoy making the setting that they live in. To me the loss of simple kits was a blow to introducing young folks to inexpensive, basic parts of the hobby. There is certainly nothing wrong with the folks who prefer to purchase R-T-R and built ups so they can run their trains, but not everyone can afford those items right off the bat.
The nice part of this hobby is that there can be such a variety of folks doing the same thing and having fun, even if they get there via different ways. There are those who operate trains on a plywood surface with little or no scenery and are very happy. On the other hand, there are those who build beautifully sceniced layouts and care very little about running trains.
If you are happy with what you have, even though you would like to do a little better, that's the challenge we all face. By talking to each other we can learn, improve and continue enjoying for a long time, adding when we can, enjoying what we have.
Have fun,
Richard
IF:
then model railroading is too expensive.
OTOH, if you can afford an internet connection, then model railroading isn't too expensive.
I am not among the nation's more affluent citizens, and model railroad expenditures had to yield priority to the necessities of raising two kids and keeping my wife happy. Still, by careful buying and considerable kitbashing and inventiveness, I have accumulated a sizeable, coherent collection. Now that I'm retired and financially secure (i.e., my income exceeds my outgo) I have the space (2 car garage) and the time to build enough layout to justify the roster.
Note that I never bought the latest and greatest at MSRP. Note, too, that I never decided that I had to have everything RIGHT NOW. I spent what I could afford - and never bought anything I couldn't afford.
What would I have bought if I hadn't spent money on models? Probably the more expensive versions of what I did buy, and maybe some more fancy vacations to forgettable places. (For one example, my seventeen year old Toyota pickup gets me where I'm going just as fast as a Ferrari driven at legal speeds.) I don't think I've deprived myself or my family of anything they should have had.
The bottom line? Patience, grasshopper. Enjoy what you can afford. Don't agonize over the things that are only available to the wealthy.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - on a shoestring)
Craig,
I hear ya'
And, I agree with you.
tatans andrechapelon: Or maybe no bumper at all. Just let the trains run off the end, crash to the floor and join you in the afterlife. Or is there, as the Hitchikers' Guide suggests, a Roundhouse at the End of the Universe? Does it matter really? According to comedian Lewis Black, he found the end of the universe when he found 2 Starbucks catty-corner from each other in Houston. Well, space is supposed to be curved, so it's at least plausible. Andre Try Vancouver, B.C. there is (were) 4 Starbucks opposing each other at an intersection downtown.
andrechapelon: Or maybe no bumper at all. Just let the trains run off the end, crash to the floor and join you in the afterlife. Or is there, as the Hitchikers' Guide suggests, a Roundhouse at the End of the Universe? Does it matter really? According to comedian Lewis Black, he found the end of the universe when he found 2 Starbucks catty-corner from each other in Houston. Well, space is supposed to be curved, so it's at least plausible. Andre
You Canadians sure must love lattes. I suppose Tim Horton's is Canada's revenge.for that kind of caffeinated imperialism.
Even 4 Starbucks does not indicate TEOTWAWKI (the end of the world as we know it).
Now if there had been 4 train only hobby shops on those same corners all selling at a 20% discount........