riogrande5761 One thing this thread does show is that clubs aren't for everyone, especially those who can't abide politics because surely politics is an integral part of any club or social organziation. I suppose its like some people go into business for themselves and open shop or consulting firm because they can't stand to be told what to do and have a boss either.
One thing this thread does show is that clubs aren't for everyone, especially those who can't abide politics because surely politics is an integral part of any club or social organziation.
I suppose its like some people go into business for themselves and open shop or consulting firm because they can't stand to be told what to do and have a boss either.
riogrande5761
Funny you should mention about going into business for yourself
NOW - YOU have to listen to the whims of the CUSTOMER no matter how obnoxious they are!
You have to put up with this DAY after DAY - so you are STILL getting told what to do! ;-)
There is just no way to get around - getting told what to do!
BOB H - Clarion, PA
I have to say your "Lone Wolf Status" Does not exist here,with over 4 pages of comments and support.I also agree that contact with others in the hobby is still very important no matter how you participate. Dave
I been a member of several clubs over the years and I can recall quiting one club over frustration more then anything simply because there was to many babies in the club and as a club got nothing accomplish because of the constant whining...Why I stayed for 3 months still remains a mystery.
One of the better clubs I was a member of everything was done by discussion and approved by majority vote. Of course we had the few misfits to come and go because they couldn't bully their modeling style on the club,didn't like the way we did things,couldn't rip out scenery,track on a whim etc and we had one to join and quit because all we did was operate..I guess he thought the best approach was to keep ripping out and rebuilding sections of the layout just to have something to do on meeting nights.None of his brilliant ideas got passed by the membership.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
TA462 Something for you to think about. Train clubs put on 99% of the train shows you guys attend so they can't be all bad can they?
Something for you to think about. Train clubs put on 99% of the train shows you guys attend so they can't be all bad can they?
I never said train clubs were bad. I still want to be in a club, but I will not be in a club with bullies, especially when the bullies are in control and the rest of the club doesn't stand up to them and lets them have their way.
To be honest, I have never been inside a model railway club house to have any first hand experience as to what goes on in there.
However, experiences in other group/club/work/sports situations tell me that clubs generally are a must for me to avoid - so I do. I know that many, many other people get a lot of enjoyment from club membership and who in heck would begrudge them that.
This doesn't mean that I am entirely anti-social; I enjoy peoples company but not in any situation other than gathering together to have a good time and enjoy each others company or a helping hand without a commitment to any kind of group or club that is formally organized.
Railroad friends I have, or at least had four until my friend, who at 83 and a superb worker with brass and who I thought was as fit as a buck rat, goes and dies just a few weeks ago.
Bruce
I'm going to say something probably kind of stupid sounding: I really enjoy being by myself enjoying my layout in my own way on my own time.......but I wish I had more like-minded people to share with, my layouts and theirs.
I don't know what that means or what to do about it, it's just the feeling I have about it; to put it another way, for me a hobby is something special I do just for myself without consideration for what anyone else thinks, but I would also like it if other people found it interesting and felt the same way I do about it.
I'm a member of a club, but I haven't really made any connections for some reason.
???
The St. Francis Consolidated Railroad of the Colorado Rockies
Denver, Colorado
riogrande5761 TA462: Something for you to think about. Train clubs put on 99% of the train shows you guys attend so they can't be all bad can they? Obviously the answer is no, they can't all be bad. One thing this thread does show is that clubs aren't for everyone, especially those who can't abide politics because surely politics is an integral part of any club or social organziation. I suppose its like some people go into business for themselves and open shop or consulting firm because they can't stand to be told what to do and have a boss either.
TA462: Something for you to think about. Train clubs put on 99% of the train shows you guys attend so they can't be all bad can they?
Obviously the answer is no, they can't all be bad. One thing this thread does show is that clubs aren't for everyone, especially those who can't abide politics because surely politics is an integral part of any club or social organziation. I suppose its like some people go into business for themselves and open shop or consulting firm because they can't stand to be told what to do and have a boss either.
Agreed, I for one never said or implied clubs are bad, they are just not for me.
Ontario must be very different from here. Are we talking about the same kind of train shows? - tables, vendors, modular layouts on display? None of those around here are put on by clubs - in fact even as the region with some of the most well know train shows, such shows seem to be slightly on the decline - at least from the standpoint of the venders who are attending fewer and saying they are not making any money at them.
As for people who choose to be self employed, like I have been most of my life, it's not that we "can't stand to be told what to do or have a boss either" but more about achieving our own dreams. My father told me as a young man that I should like whatever work I chose to do - being my own boss and finding my own way has always kept me doing things I like.
Model railroading and clubs is a parallel - I'm more about working toward my own dreams, not the dreams of others, or dreams that have been "selected" by committee. I spend a lot of my time, and have spent, a large part of my life taking care of the needs of others, modeling is my selfish space in life, and it is OK if that makes it a "lone wolf" space.
When I worked for others, rather than being self employed, I prefered to simply be a worker bee, tell me what you want done and let me do it - OR, let me be the boss and be responsible for the out come - BUT DON'T make me part of a "management by committee team" as is so popular in business and life today.
Sheldon
Well, I for one feel that being in a club is the best part of this hobby. However, my club is a small, tight knit group without the factions and in-fighting that you get in a lot of larger organizations. First and foremost, I number these guys among my best friends. I realize I'm pretty lucky in that regard.
I'm also a member of a crew that regularly operates on a nearby home layout. I've known the guy forever (through the club) but I've only been operating there a year. Again, a great bunch of guys. Some I've known for years, some I've only operated with once or twice. It's another group that just seems to gel together personally.
I do know that i would not participate in this hobby at all if it wasn't for these two groups.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
twhite "Lone Wolf" here, by choice. ..... But my profession is teaching choral music in high school, which is a constant 'group' experience, and though I love my job extremely well, at the end of the day, I just want a hobby that I can do by myself. Besides, I'm one of those Old Farts that is happy with DC, and the two local clubs are strictly DCC, so I'd have to do a lot of 'converting' on my big brass lokies in order to run them at the club, anyway. That makes my wallet scream, LOL! ....... Tom
"Lone Wolf" here, by choice.
.....
But my profession is teaching choral music in high school, which is a constant 'group' experience, and though I love my job extremely well, at the end of the day, I just want a hobby that I can do by myself.
Besides, I'm one of those Old Farts that is happy with DC, and the two local clubs are strictly DCC, so I'd have to do a lot of 'converting' on my big brass lokies in order to run them at the club, anyway. That makes my wallet scream, LOL!
.......
Tom
Tom, I know what you mean, after a day of customers, sub contractors, suppliers, tenants, traffic when I have to leave the house, etc, Iam just looking for peace and quiet - something some others don't understand because their idea of fun always involves other people.
And, as to all operational standards, not just DC or DCC, I set high standards, but they are my standards and they don't always agree with what is "popular" or "politically correct" - another reason I will not drag my equipment all around town to run at clubs.
In our round robin we occasionally have a "guest" loco or a few newly built cars, but generally we run the host layout's equipment - no lugging and handling suff just to get "set up". I'll bet I have rolling stock that has been touched by human hand fewer times than you have fingers - buy it, weather and "tune" it, install Kadee's and better trucks, put it on the layout - there it stays - seldom to be touched ever again.
Nothing against clubs at all--the two clubs I've visited here in my area seem well organized, and the members I've met are certainly friendly toward 'guests', and I've picked up some good ideas for my own layout from them.
But the times I've visited the clubs, I've certainly never gotten the impression of "King and Serfs" from the membership. And oh yes--one of the clubs has a good contingent of younger members--high school and college age--which probably bodes well for both the club and the hobby in general.
Tom View my layout photos! http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/mm310/TWhite-014/Rio%20Grande%20Yuba%20River%20Sub One can NEVER have too many Articulateds!
30 some years ago, with only enthusiasm to bring to the party, I joined a club in the town we settled in. Learned quite a lot, enjoyed the social aspect, and even was an officer for a few years. But I did little in so far as what showed on the layout. For some, that's OK, but not what I was looking for.
As the family grew, became more difficult to participate, eventually, deciding to terminate my membership. The club was disappointed and questioned me regarding my reasons, fearing certain people may have discouraged my continued presence (not the case at all).
Have maintained a cordial relationship with the group, mostly the (now) oldtimers during the ensuing years. Have heard of situations that have come up that created some divisions and hurt feelings among the members over the years, but have stayed out of those discussions.
Point being, clubs are a microcosm of our society in the people they attract., just like work. Unlike work, one does not have to grin and bear it or suck it up. If it's annoying past the stage of aggravating, one can leave. If you are having fun, hopefully it overcomes any drawbacks.
Have had thoughts recently of rejoining, but the new dues structure, apparently necessary, is a deterrence. Now if the club would acquire a storage area the landlord would empty and dedicate it to construction of an N layout, then I could swallow the increase....
I get the distinct impression that quite a number modelers that join a Club do so just to change it to meet their ideas! AS IN - I can't build my own layout so I will get the CLUB to build me one!
I think that quite a number have missed the point of a club!
It is to bring together modelers to exchange ideas and MEET other modelers.
If the club is not building/Operating the Railroad/Road name type that you are interested in then BUILD your OWN layout or go work/help other members build their HOME Layout.
This way YOU learn the many Modeling techniques that will help you raise your skill level.
You don't have to agree with everything the Club does but just working on the layouts helps you in the long run!
I can't understand this - WHATS IN IT FOR ME - attitude so many seem to express !?
Everytime YOU help someone YOU are learning things that NO ONE can take from you!
A CLUB is just one way to concentrate like minded individuals together easier! -
BUT I Guess some will never catch on to this.
We hope our Club helps our members start their OWN HOME Layout. This way we have more layouts to OPERATE on!
Model Railroading isn't just about watching trains run around in circles - it is making a well sceniced layout OPERATE like the real thing we are trying to emulate!
I can´t really understand the issue here...
If it is in your interest to meet people with the same hobby BUT don´t want to spend a lifetime in someone elses empire, building someone elses dream, why not do the module thing???
I model in HO myself and think the social interaction with my peers is important, but the only clubs around me is either closed for new members or building a prototype wich is of no interest to me (I model the US and they model Sweden...).
The solution was to join the N-scale modular society!
Then I can have some modules depicting MY visions and dreams! The modules, wich are quite easy to store, is also easy to transport, I can go to the meetings and run some trains. And still do my own thing in my very own way!
I have done the regular Club tango too many times to even bother with increasing fees and rules and what have you...
Swedish Custom painter and model maker. My Website:
My Railroad
My Youtube:
Graff´s channel
TMarsh Clubs are an important part of this hobby for many reasons and I'd hate for all clubs to get a bad rep for the few that deserve it. Just my opinion.
Clubs are an important part of this hobby for many reasons and I'd hate for all clubs to get a bad rep for the few that deserve it.
Just my opinion.
I reckon that's a sensible approach. I am not aware of any clubs near me, but I do keep a baseball bat handy, "just in case"...
John
richhotrain Interesting discussion here about clubs. I have never belonged to one and, from what I have heard here and elsewhere, I never will join a club. I run trains solo, and it is fun, but i sometimes wish that I had a few local friends who would enjoy running trains together. But, alas, it is only me. Rich
Interesting discussion here about clubs. I have never belonged to one and, from what I have heard here and elsewhere, I never will join a club. I run trains solo, and it is fun, but i sometimes wish that I had a few local friends who would enjoy running trains together. But, alas, it is only me.
Rich
Same here.
However, in my case there *might* be hope on the horizon. I just learned over the weekend that my neighbor two doors down is a model railroader. He's the guy who always puts the G-scale train on his lawn at Xmas time. One of my other neighbors came over on Sunday to ask me some questions about plumbing. In our conversation I took him downstairs to show him some stuff about it and we were standing in the midst of my layout looking up at the plumbing... we turned the corner where I've got the yard laid out and his eye got wide and he says-- "Is this what I think it is !?!?!" And he tells me about the guy a few houses over.... I don't think I've ever met him, but I suspect it's inevitable now :-)
I don't blame you.
Unfortunately that is the trouble with clubs where there is no "meeting of the minds", and why I won't join one.
I have found in the past that that is how they operate and cliques develop with ideas off on a tangent.
Being a lone wolf, as long as you have your own layout is great.
So, welcome to Lone Wolf country. Here you are accepted for what you are!
-G .
Just my thoughts, ideas, opinions and experiences. Others may vary.
HO and N Scale.
After long and careful thought, they have convinced me. I have come to the conclusion that they are right. The aliens did it.
I've always found that not caring what people think of me makes it much easier to get along with any group.
Sean
HO Scale CSX Modeler
Graham Line Our club is modeling a specific railroad at a specific time, and it's kind of surprising the number of people who will hang around six months, join up, and then want to change what's going on. Having 20 people focused on the same goal lets us get a lot done and most differences of opinion get ironed out. Yes, we have some people who need help with social skills but having a stated goal makes it easier to work things out. I've been in groups that didn't have a plan, didn't really have rules, and it was a waste of time.
Our club is modeling a specific railroad at a specific time, and it's kind of surprising the number of people who will hang around six months, join up, and then want to change what's going on.
Having 20 people focused on the same goal lets us get a lot done and most differences of opinion get ironed out. Yes, we have some people who need help with social skills but having a stated goal makes it easier to work things out.
I've been in groups that didn't have a plan, didn't really have rules, and it was a waste of time.
(bold print mine...)
Bingo!!! Ding ding! This is a perfect reflection of how the vast majority of us see ourselves in the hobby, and why there is so much free/protolancing. Small surprise that the potential that we assume is ours for the plucking when we join a club doesn't materialize because those with any history in the club have adopted the 'worldview' of the layout there and have just gotten used to it. The newcomers often find they can't crowbar themselves or their druthers into the club's membership's plans for the next umpteen years, and that leaves them out of the lineup. On the bench, that is... Plan B is to start sawing wood and charging up the cordless drill's Ni-cad or lithium ion battery.
Crandell
Clubs can be great - But the 'leadership' usually ages and does not keep up with what is happening in the hobby. I have belonged to several clubs over the years. Of 5 clubs, only two are still alive. The club I belong to is about 7-8 years old and has a good double track layout that allows members to 'run' trains - no era, no operation - All DCC only. The big issues with this club are:
Cost - $30/month for membership(rent is the culprit)
Distance - something line 28 miles to drive one way.
Work on the layout - When the bench work/track work/wiring was going on, everyone was involved. Once trains were running, work stopped. A total of 3 folks ballasted the layout last year(and I paid for most of the ballast out of my pocket). The same 3 folks are now doing scenery(I have built over 200 trees, and 600 flocked 'puff balls' for a mountain ridge. I really get little time to work on 'my' layout at times. One of the members quit last year - He wanted to invest his hobby money in NMRA dues, and his own layout. I am starting to think the same way(at least I bought a Life NMRA membership many years ago). We have at least 3 large 'home' layouts in town, and some really nice ones within 45-75 miles. The 'Round Robin' idea makes sense.
Modular/Fremo style layouts are nice, but keeping them stored is an issue. The closest Fremo group is over 100 miles away from our area. Clubs an be so good for a learning experience for new folks, and the social aspect is a plus. I just wish we could be more folks involved. One of the problems of being in a small city with nothing else close(except the corn fields).
Jim
Modeling BNSF and Milwaukee Road in SW Wisconsin
Never belonged to a club, never will. Most I've seen do very good work on both the layouts and public relations. Many club member's I've met have been warm and friendly, and ready to lend a hand with expert advice. So why am I not a club member? Because for every one good member there seems to be 10 that think they are a third world dictator and you are a stupid waste of time and they love to sport the "how dare you stand upright in our presence, we are THE CLUB and you are not" line of thinking. I dont' need that kind of attitude in my life, so I elect to not join any clubs.
The Dixie D Short Line "Lux Lucet In Tenebris Nihil Igitur Mors Est Ad Nos 2001"
maxman potlatcher: the next time I have the store proprietor's ear, I'm going to let him know that his club buddy is making me less likely to visit his store. I go in there to look at, and sometimes purchase, train stuff, not get a browbeating. While I sympathize, I fail to see why you think it is the proprietor's responsibility to run interference for you.
potlatcher: the next time I have the store proprietor's ear, I'm going to let him know that his club buddy is making me less likely to visit his store. I go in there to look at, and sometimes purchase, train stuff, not get a browbeating.
the next time I have the store proprietor's ear, I'm going to let him know that his club buddy is making me less likely to visit his store. I go in there to look at, and sometimes purchase, train stuff, not get a browbeating.
While I sympathize, I fail to see why you think it is the proprietor's responsibility to run interference for you.
His store, his responsibility to maintain a friendly atmosphere.
Unless he doesn't really care about the business end of running a hobby shop.
When I was a teenager, I got the rude treatment at a hobby store and never went back. The one 2 blocks over was nice and I went there often, even though it was out of my way, until they closed.
Enjoy
Paul
potlatcher the next time I have the store proprietor's ear, I'm going to let him know that his club buddy is making me less likely to visit his store. I go in there to look at, and sometimes purchase, train stuff, not get a browbeating.
I got burned by a club situation when I was a junior member 20+ years ago. My main beef was that none of the "old timers" were willing to let me help with their projects, and they were resistant to giving me any projects of my own. With little to do at work nights, I would wander out onto the doorstep to watch trains on the nearby mainline. The final straw was overhearing complaints from the old timers that the new guy was not pulling his weight with the layout construction.
Since then, I have decided that club membership is not for me. Not only because of my bad experience, but also because my budgets of time and money aren't enough to make the kind of progress I would like on my own layout. Until the kids move out, I can't see where I would find the time or money to spend a night a week at the club and pay its dues.
The local club has just started a layout in a new location, and they are eagerly recruiting new members. The president of the club is a regular down at the hobby shop. Every time I walk in while he is there, he insists on nagging me about joining the club, even though I have told him I'm not interested. The last time, he repeatedly told me, "One way or another, I'm going to get you to join!"
I know he means well, but I am not weak minded, and his lame attempts at Jedi mind control are just laughable. However, the next time I have the store proprietor's ear, I'm going to let him know that his club buddy is making me less likely to visit his store. I go in there to look at, and sometimes purchase, train stuff, not get a browbeating.
So, for now I intend to remain a Lone Wolf, too. When my situation changes one day, I may reassess my position on joining a club.
howmus Rules, when done well actually can give a focus and freedom to what is being done in any organization. Without officers, you have no program and no leadership except those who ultimately step up to do the same thing. Of course they were chosen by themselves. Anarchy ultimately leads to dictatorship whether it is in government or the RR Club. So, if someone doesn't like the new officers and what they are doing, Who elected them? Was there a choice for the person who would become the officer, or was it tag your it? I know of way to many organizations that have been destroyed because good folks wouldn't step up and do a good job of leadership..... People seem to love to use the word politics as a negative, almost a dirty word....
Rules, when done well actually can give a focus and freedom to what is being done in any organization.
Without officers, you have no program and no leadership except those who ultimately step up to do the same thing. Of course they were chosen by themselves. Anarchy ultimately leads to dictatorship whether it is in government or the RR Club. So, if someone doesn't like the new officers and what they are doing, Who elected them? Was there a choice for the person who would become the officer, or was it tag your it? I know of way to many organizations that have been destroyed because good folks wouldn't step up and do a good job of leadership.....
People seem to love to use the word politics as a negative, almost a dirty word....
I've belonged to the same club for over 25 years. Reading all the other posts, I can recognize that we have had all the issues that have been mentioned. Over that period of time, there have been many periods where I've considered quitting because I didn't like what was going on. I do have other options. And over that same period of time I'm sure that there have been members who would have wished me gone. But I have not quit for two reasons. First, I've always felt that things can be improved. And second, quitting would have allowed "them" to win. So a few observations.
Rules. Rules are necessary for any organization that tries to operate as a democracy. There are things that need to be decided, bills that need to be paid, and personal conflicts that need to be resolved. A good set of rules will get everyone on the same page. The problem with "rules" is that some members feel that they should be selectively applied. Or the equally onerous belief that if there is not a rule against, then that means it must be allowed. No. If you have rules, they should apply to everyone, equally.
Officers. If someone wants to be an officer, that person should be a strong leader. Unfortunately, anyone who tries to be a leader soon gets hit with the dictator label. The leader of the organization needs to be somewhat of a dictator or else nothing gets done. The hard part is trying to be a benevolent dictator, which means getting all the greased cats headed somewhat in the same direction without them recognizing what you're doing. And don't complain about the officers unless you're willing to be one. It does take extra work and is added responsibility. What happens at our place every year when it comes to nomination for officers is that you can hear that whoshing sound as the majority of the membership blows on the feather of responsibility to keep it from landing on their shoulders.
Old Members. Or old timers. These are the folks who have been around for years. They are normally reviled as being set in their ways, obstructionists, behind the times, or not receptive to new ideas. Some of this is true. On the other hand, they have been there to support the organization through good times and bad, they have done most of the work, and it is their dollars which have allowed the railroad to progresses to the state it is when the new people join. They need to be cut a little slack if they appear to be leary of the latest new idea that comes along.
New Members. The new short timers. They bring in new blood to keep the organization going, as well as some new ideas. The problem is that they are very impatient and think that their "wonderful idea" should be accepted and approved by everyone immediately. But they don't seem to bring much talent to the table when it comes to getting projects accomplished. Every one of them manages to get the demolition part of the project completed. Construction is another story. So what was at least an acceptable area becomes a wasteland. And they tend to be complainers. This or that needs to be repaired, but you don't necessarily find them with their sleeves rolled up under the layout trying to fix the problem. That's what the old timers are for.
Prospective Members. Please, please do not expect that what you see at the open house is what happens during the rest of the year. You need to attend a few meetings as a guest to see what actually goes on.
Skin. Either have a thick skin, or try to develop one. You'll need it. You will always have someone who might be critical of your work, either because they are trying to be helpful and don't know how to present themselves, or they are just naturally horse's patoots. Try to separate the good information from the bad, and ignore the rest.
I joined a club about 15 months ago and I love it. Yes there are some people that I don't especially like but there are plenty that I like and respect. I joined when I got back into MRR after about a 40 year break. The first night I walked in they made me feel like family and even loaned me a small train to run and showed me how to operate a DCC throttle. The way I see it you can't ask for more than that. Everybody is invaluable as I build my own layout. I think the biggest thing is you have to parrticipate and understand you have to work together for the common good.
I understand that if the club is not a good fit then you should not stay. I just got lucky and found a keeper. Just my opinion.
Curt Webb
The Late Great Pennsylvania Railroad
http://s1082.photobucket.com/albums/j372/curtwbb/
Clubs have their problems with people being able to play nice in the sand box. Off course and its easy for many of you who have a home with a sizable space to build a layout to turn your noses up at them and be a lone wolf. Given the choice, I would do exactly the same thing unless I was lucky enough to find a club that like to run the kind of trains I do and aren't hard to get along with or the dues too high. I'm not in a position to be a lone wolf and run trains right now so it might be nice to be a part of a club for a bit if there was one not too far away.
That about sums it up.
I have been in a club for two years now and found it to be an excellent way to re-enter the hobby. I can understand what others are saying about obnoxious individuals and I was told that the club had several of these who left just before I joined. It almost killed the club. Listening to the history of the club it sounds like clubs with a history go through periods where they are great to be part of and periods when they suck. I guess its trying to make the club good. Many people who become officers have had no experience at any level of management and power can go to their heads quickly. Even certain members can act like they know it all. I think its best to stick it out and if you can't do that, to revisit a club a year later to see if its gone into a better period.