Like many others in our great hobby I have returned to it after many years in the wilderness. So many changes, so many new and exciting products the mind boggles. The thing that is now occuring which I find unpalatable is the idea dreamed up by the importers of locomotives the "order now and wait while we order your item". In September last year I ordered a loco from a distributer which was expected to arrive in November.. That date has now been put back to March that is a 6 MONTH delay. who knows if this deadline will be met . I can only hope that our suppliers don't go a step further and demand full payment when ordering..
It seems to be the new darling business model of the N. American industry. I don't know how it is working for them, but I have learned to forget about projected delivery dates. I have been waiting for a Sunset Selkirk for over two years now, and it isn't looking promising for 2011. BLI's UP 9000's have gone a year past their initially projected delivery, and I have felt a very compelling urge to begin breathing...so I am.
Crandell
I for one will not support this new way of doing business by pre-ordering. If you feel the same way, you can vote with your money by not giving it away for products that don't exist.
Elmer.
The above is my opinion, from an active and experienced Model Railroader in N scale and HO since 1961.
(Modeling Freelance, Eastern US, HO scale, in 1962, with NCE DCC for locomotive control and a stand alone LocoNet for block detection and signals.) http://waynes-trains.com/ at home, and N scale at the Club.
It is a frustrating proposition.
I was fortunate to have an LHS that, in the past, would go ahead and pre-order batches of limited production models that the owner knew would sell quickly. When the Genesis HO FP45s (non-sound) arrived, they sold out instantly but he had reserved one for me.
I'm wondering now about the upcoming U50BB as my LHS might not be in the financial position to order several thousand dollars worth of models that may or may not sell out. So do I preorder and hope that it does not become "vapor ware?" Or do I say forget it and take my chances on ebay. I guess I'll take one of the forks on that road once the I get there.
"I like my Pullman Standards & Budds in Stainless Steel flavors, thank you!"
If it's not in stock I don't order it.
Dr. Frankendiesel aka Scott Running BearSpace Mouse for president!15 year veteran fire fighterCollector of Apple //e'sRunning Bear EnterprisesHistory Channel Club life member.beatus homo qui invenit sapientiam
Welcome to the new world order of MRRing. Pre-order if you want it, wait , wait, wait some more, then have it cancelled on you and not produced at all due to "low numbers fo pre-orders" or because of "cancelled orders" because the wait was too long.
You should have been around here about 4 years ago. There were HUGE fights over that proceedure. Why? because hobby shops and e-tailers were charging credit cards WHEN THE ORDER WAS PLACED, and NOT when the order SHIPPED OUT THE DOOR! Then people A} had the product all paid off on their credit cards long before it was to arrive or worse, got cancelled, and B} COULD NOT GET THE MONEY BACK TO THEIR CARDS, either form the CC company OR the hobby shop or e-tailers. or C} IF they did get a refund back to the card, they had to "spend the money again" as they could not get cash back form the card for the cash they paid it off with!
Now people call to pre-oder and ASK when the CC gets charged and most hobby shops and e-tailers ahve changed their policy and now only charge when the item ships IF the CC get approved then, because they were loosing business due to it.
If it ain't available or on the shelves, I don't buy it.
I have only pre-oredered 4 shorty modern modeled passenger cars due out "early 2011" that I will see how it goes. They promised not to charge my card until shipping and to actually call before shipping when the cars arrive to be sure I still want them {which I do} and onto which card I would like to charge them then. I will see how this experience goes before I pre-order anything again. I know they have my order entered into their data system as I did ordered other in-stock items and they shipped with zeros listed as not yet shipped for the 4 passenger cars on my invoice . SO I have hope. Now if only they come as promised and are produced as promised, I will be happy even if they come in JULY.
-G .
Just my thoughts, ideas, opinions and experiences. Others may vary.
HO and N Scale.
After long and careful thought, they have convinced me. I have come to the conclusion that they are right. The aliens did it.
I never reserve pre-orders.
I am not offended, I just don't do it and probably never will. I'm more of an instant gratification kind of guy.
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
I know what you mean, I'm an instant gratification type of a guy also. But when I miss out on a new release because everybody is sold out of it, that irritates the [explicative removed] out of me.
So basically I'm irritated at the entire "Limited Production" crap that these company's have for a policy. If a product sells well, why wouldn't they make more, and make more money? I don't get it.
Michael
CEO- Mile-HI-RailroadPrototype: D&RGW Moffat Line 1989
Motley So basically I'm irritated at the entire "Limited Production" crap that these company's have for a policy. If a product sells well, why wouldn't they make more, and make more money? I don't get it.
That means the more it happens that you miss out on a limited production pre-order run, the more they will force you into it if you really really really want the product and then they can charge full {or even discounted} MSRP for the item and make MORE profit AND sell out ALL produced with no leftovers to be "firesale'd" !
People WILL pay a premium for a "limited production run" of somehting if they really want it. Look at "collectors items" Bachmann can sell thousands of {pre-orderd} On30 Hawthorne Village trains as "collectors items" and know how many to produce and can sell each loco/track oval/DC controller for $150, and sell each car at $79.99 because those who want the set will pay it to get tehm all...AND WAIT for each one to be produced to get the whole set! and they do it time after time!
There is a madness to the method.
We all know that the Franklin Mint has proven that some people will pay any price for anything if you include a lithographed "certificate of authenticity" and call it a collectors edition, but I am not among those people and never will be.
Phoebe Vet We all know that the Franklin Mint has proven that some people will pay any price for anything if you include a lithographed "certificate of authenticity" and call it a collectors edition, but I am not among those people and never will be.
Agree.
I will pre-order if and only if I really want a particular product(s) and my credit card is charged when said product(s) has shipped from the retailer. The thing I hate most are the production delays.
Will
I pre-ordered one time. During my wait ,I went on vacation to a place 800 miles from home. Of course I took in the LHS tour (MR mag in hand with a AAA map inside) and saw my "pre-ordered" diesel loco. on the shelf ...twice. One of the shops already had it on special.
Not only was it irritating but ,like a smuck, I felt that my pre-order was a committment on my part. So 3 weeks after I returned home I got my pre-order. NEVER AGAIN!
We really need a "beating a dead horse" emoticon (smiley)
I can understand why manufacturers do this. It doesn't mean I like it.
If I know it's something I have to have (ie: C&O 2-6-6-6 H-8) and it's limited production then I'm more likely to divert my savings there instead of a model that's common place and on the market for years in ten different forms. (ie: C&O F-7 A-B)
But there is a downside I'm sure they don't think about. If I have to pre-order and I'm on a budget (let's say I allow $20/month towards a new loco) and I don't think I can meet that target, then I won't buy it. I might have picked up a PRR Q2 if they were available, even though I'm a C&O guy. But the pre-order thing really put it outside my savings budget by the time they were released. Funds were diverted to a Bachmann C&O engine instead.
Don - Specializing in layout DC->DCC conversions
Modeling C&O transition era and steel industries There's Nothing Like Big Steam!
Years back I worked for the Harley Davidson motorcycle company an American icon and I witnessed something I had never seen before and thought I would never see again until this same stuff has been happening in our hobby but thankfully not to the same degree. These yahoos would come to our dealership and camp out over nite in the parking lot, yes it's not a typo they would come with motor-homes, pop up trailers, and pup tents just to be first in line to hand over a hefty deposit to wait for as long as a year for their new motorcycle.In many dealerships people were actually buying product over list price and some went as far as buying others places on the list. I found this to be totally ridiculous and laughed at these people. Sorry to say same goes for our hobby. If I give you my money I want what I am buying with in a "reasonable" amount of time not six months later.I recall back a few years trying to buy QSI sound decoders that were supposed to be coming out "real soon" and real soon turned into two years later. Not to get into some bickering match but I feel there should be a law that a manufacture should not be allowed to accept orders for ANYTHING that can not be delivered to the customers with in 3 to 4 weeks just to throw out a number.
The only time I have pre-ordered anything was about a year ago last August (18 months). I ordered a steam generator car for the WP. So, guess what ?? I'm still waiting.
I won't be doing that any more.
Johnboy out.............................and still waiting
from Saskatchewan, in the Great White North..
We have met the enemy, and he is us............ (Pogo)
Not to get into some bickering match but I feel there should be a law that a manufacture should not be allowed to accept orders for ANYTHING that can not be delivered to the customers with in 3 to 4 weeks just to throw out a number.
:Lessee. You'd kill the building of custom homes for people. The company I used to work for in the semiconductor equipment biz would go out of business because lead times on order to delivery could be as high as a year or more (EVERYTHING was built to order). Boeing (not to mention Airbus, Embraer and Bombardier) would be disallowed from accepting orders for aircraft and GE and EMD wouldn't be allowed to build locomotives since there is a long lead time for delivery as railroads and airlines generally order for anticipated needs, not for immediate replacement. In any case, Boeing, EMD and GE can't deliver within a 3 to 4 week time frame. Bath Iron works in Bath, Maine, which builds naval vessels would have to build ships in anticipation of a ship order from the Department of the Navy rather than building to a contracted order.
Personally, I have no problem with pre-ordering. OTOH, nobody has yet come out with something (say a Southern Pacific P-6 4-6-2, laser kits for the SP depot in Pacific Grove and Monterey, buffet parlor car "Oliver Millett, building flats or full kits for any of the sardine canneries along Cannery Row) that I want badly enough to commit to it ahead of time. In the cited cases, I'd probably even be willing to pay full retail.
Andre
I've only pre-ordered once in my life and never again. It was the Sunset Z-6 and I decided that I was too old to wait for it, after a year. I cancelled the pre-order, used the deposit at the LHS for something else.
Wouldn't you know it? Six weeks after I cancelled the pre-order, Sunset put the Z-6 in release.
Oh, well--
I've decided that If it ain't in stock, I don't need it.
Tom
Tom View my layout photos! http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/mm310/TWhite-014/Rio%20Grande%20Yuba%20River%20Sub One can NEVER have too many Articulateds!
It takes at least 12 months to bring a Chinese locomotive model project to market. The prototype data package has to be assembled, and a first sample built. This must be compared against all known photographs of the prototype (in the right time frame) to make sure there are no obvious blunders. Then the cutting of dies can commence. Parts list have to be drawn up, and a spot on the production line reserved. With the merger of most of the Chinese model railroading manufacturing companies, reserving that window has become more difficult. If you can't have everything ready when the window occurs, the manufacturer goes on to the next order, and you have to reserve a spot down the road. That's why the length of time to market has been steadily growing.
The importer must also commit at least $200K upfront for new tooling and dies, the production spot, and components like motors and decoders.
If I were investing that kind of money over that kind of time, I would certainly want more than a finger in the wind as to what my sales might be. Making some extra above and beyond the expected initial sales figure can be very profitable for all as impulse sales take off. OTOH, produce even a few too many models, and the unsold units have to be dumped (to pay off the investors) at bargain prices, under cutting the dealers' margins and creating lots of ill will.
If the likely sales can support a second run, the dies can be re-used making the second run much more profitable than the first. But again, waiting in line for a production window is a reality.
OTOH, if pre-orders are really dismal, perhaps I don't want to throw my money at a project that is likely to fail. Delaying the start, or cancellation might be fiscal sanity.
The Chinese model manufacturers are unlikely to grow more capacity. Their source for the cheap semi-skilled or skilled labor required to assemble the locomotives is drying up. What the Chinese do now can be moved elsewhere (not without problems because of the labor skills needed), just like the Italians, Germans, Japanese, and Koreans lost the model locomotive manufacturing business before them.
It's always easy to tell other people how to use their money.
just my thoughts
Fred W
gandydancer19..., you can vote with your money by not giving it away for products that don't exist.
Exactly, I have trouble with that too. If I'm going to pay for it, I want it in my hand within a reasonable amount of time or forget it. Empty promises don't cut it.
As a matter of notation, I too am one of the lost who has returned and so far what I see does not please me. Prices have sky-rocketted, stock has depleted, many of the former selection of excellent manufacturers have disappeared, and this whole pre-ordering & limited production system where you may or may not be able to aquire something really really bites the big one!
I used to think being a Jeep owner was expensive, but now that I get back into MR I am thinking that the two must be in colusion to extort my hard earned cash.
Branch Line Railways Corporation - sporadic service since 1980
jeffrey-wimberly If it's not in stock I don't order it.
Same here. I don't purchase hypothetical products.
BLRyCo1980 ... I am thinking that the two must be in colusion to extort my hard earned cash.
... I am thinking that the two must be in colusion to extort my hard earned cash.
Hi, and welcome to the forum. I hope you don't mind a direct question: who is holding your hand to the fire for either purchase?
Nobody's forcing you to buy either one and neither one is a necessity. A vehicle of some sort might be a necessity depending on where you live, but there's a whole spectrum of brands to satisfy your driving needs.
As for model railroading items, that's pure discretionary spending. If you don't like the prices, don't buy. Owning a yacht's expensive, too,.
This pre-order/pre-manufacture is a bit like commissioning someone to do a painting. You hope it comes out the way you want it in a reasonable time. The artist usually does her best to meet your requirements, (though of course it doesn't always work out).
It also reminds me of the days when you could walk into your local Dodge dealer and check off boxes to order the Charger of your dreams, personalized the way you wanted it. Then you waited for delivery. In most cases, though, the car was actually built and delivered in the promised timeframe.
My point is that the artist or manufacturer in these cases tried hard to do what they promised. If we could trust these model companies to do as they say, it would be a different story and I might pre-order. But as far as I can tell (through personal experience and second-hand knowledge) we can't.
BLRyCo1980 ...I used to think being a Jeep owner was expensive, but now that I get back into MR I am thinking that the two must be in colusion to extort my hard earned cash.
...I used to think being a Jeep owner was expensive, but now that I get back into MR I am thinking that the two must be in colusion to extort my hard earned cash.
Hilarious!
Sean
HO Scale CSX Modeler
Pay first (in any amount), finalize production, and ship later?
Why would anyone be willing to help finance a manufacturer's development/production process with free, zero-percent-interest money, and take some of the risk out of their inventory/production control to boot?
Sorry, I don't need anything that bad...not even a train.
The St. Francis Consolidated Railroad of the Colorado Rockies
Denver, Colorado
You got that right ! ! ! ....then they try to resell it on ebay a couple of years later and think everyone else should pay $129 for a 1:24 scale car because that's what it's "worth"....yeah, right.
andrechapelon Not to get into some bickering match but I feel there should be a law that a manufacture should not be allowed to accept orders for ANYTHING that can not be delivered to the customers with in 3 to 4 weeks just to throw out a number. :Lessee. You'd kill the building of custom homes for people. The company I used to work for in the semiconductor equipment biz would go out of business because lead times on order to delivery could be as high as a year or more (EVERYTHING was built to order). Boeing (not to mention Airbus, Embraer and Bombardier) would be disallowed from accepting orders for aircraft and GE and EMD wouldn't be allowed to build locomotives since there is a long lead time for delivery as railroads and airlines generally order for anticipated needs, not for immediate replacement. In any case, Boeing, EMD and GE can't deliver within a 3 to 4 week time frame. Bath Iron works in Bath, Maine, which builds naval vessels would have to build ships in anticipation of a ship order from the Department of the Navy rather than building to a contracted order.
You ARE correct there. BUT {and it's a big one} BUT Boeing and EMD and GE actually deliver the pre-ordered items, and usually in a very timely manner of expected delivery date. IF, at any time necessary, a prospective purchaser on pre-order can usually GO SEE their product or the products being actually built to fill that/those orders. They are spending hundreds of thousands of dollars for the product so a $1,200 round trip air fare and hotel to go see their products being produced is money reasonably spent.
Also, , EMD and GE Locomotive works usually have spent some money of their own in R &D to present plans on paper for their new pre-ordered product rather than just saying "we are gonna produce a new Loco, oh lets say, call it the L-1600, wanna buy some? and give us a $100,000 down payment sight unseen? with a delivery date of who knows when, maybe sometime by 2016? With no guarantee on that year either?" {Boeing and Airbus DID, I believe make an arbitrary pitch like that for their superliners, then when they had some interest in such a thing, went to the drawing board with their own R&D money to complete an acurate idea of their actual-to-be-produced planes that customers could pre-order from}
We, here, on the other hand, with model trains, have no idea what is going on in the time frame of our pre-ordered product, or that any funds collected in advanced aren't being used to manufacture, say widgets because widgets make more profits than toy trains, and our toy trains they'll produce "when we have a lull in making widgets".. AND we are highly unlikely to spend $1200 for air/hotel just to go see what is going on with our pre-orders of a $300 engine.
Manufacturers who want to operate on a pre-order system for toy trains , need to realize a few things:
Toy trains are not 787's or gensets;1} Produce WHAT you say you are going to produce-regardless of how many you get, or cancel within a reasonable amount of time [no more than 3-6 months and refund any up-front monies in cash immediately], 2} DELIVER WHEN you say you are going to deliver- {there is little that should get in the way of making toy trains...ROLLS Royce Engine failures for a 787 on the other hand...a good reason to delay some delivery until ironed out}- ALSO an EMD OR GE loco may take year and a half to two years to build a real one, why should a model take longer?-; and 3} produce extras for the shelves for additional sales by those who missed the preorder, or who like it after they see it and may want to buy it. I think there are far more likely "shelf sales" to go on for model trains than for 787's that may be laying around.
MAybe not. If I have spare few million lying around, I'll let you know when I'll buy that spare 787 Dreamliner Boeing made "just in case". More than likely I'll pick up a good B&O Mike off the shelves faster....
galaxy Manufacturers who want to operate on a pre-order system for toy trains , need to realize a few things: Toy trains are not 787's or gensets;1} Produce WHAT you say you are going to produce-regardless of how many you get, or cancel within a reasonable amount of time [no more than 3-6 months and refund any up-front monies in cash immediately], 2} DELIVER WHEN you say you are going to deliver- {there is little that should get in the way of making toy trains...ROLLS Royce Engine failures for a 787 on the other hand...a good reason to delay some delivery until ironed out}- ALSO an EMD OR GE loco may take year and a half to two years to build a real one, why should a model take longer?-; and 3} produce extras for the shelves for additional sales by those who missed the preorder, or who like it after they see it and may want to buy it. I think there are far more likely "shelf sales" to go on for model trains than for 787's that may be laying around.
Wow.
I never would have guessed that manufacturers had to abide by rules laid out in a post on this forum. Nor did I know that manufacturing toy trains was exempt from Murphy. And I certainly didn't know there were rules stating a manufacturer has to produce more than is pre-ordered. I doubt there is a single model railroad manufacturer who intentionally announces a project they will not produce. I do not believe anybody intentionally misses delivery dates, either.
Frankly, I much prefer being in the niche areas of the hobby, where cooperative relationships between supplier and customer are more frequent. In Early Rail, a cooperative effort was formed to increase the availability of accurate car kits. Those who pre-ordered got a good deal on the price. The outcome of the effort has been several manufacturers of resin kits for the early rail modeler.
Even in 3 rail O, cooperation with the manufacturers has resulted in models and paint schemes that would otherwise not have been produced.
Yes, pre-orders take trust and good faith by both sides to work. But even an airtight written contract in the end is only as good as the trustworthiness of both sides. Litigation and claims are never a good outcome.
The history of model railroad manufacturing has numerous failed or canceled projects. So do other manufacturing endeavors, including automobiles and aircraft. There was a cartoon in MR in 1950 lampooning the announced projects that never got off the ground. There was an editorial in the April 1982 MR about the problems with canceled projects. Back then, deposits were typically required so a canceled project had financial implications for the buyer. Because of those issues, very seldom are deposits required by buyers these days (retailers are a different story).
Don't pre-order, and your risk is that you will not be able to get your hands on the produced model at a similar price. Pre-order and your risk is that the project gets canceled due to perceived insufficient demand. You also have the option to deal with manufacturers that don't pre-announce products or that don't deal in pre-orders. I prefer a world with lots of options for me - and I have exercised all of them at one time or another in model railroading. I live with the consequences of my choices.
my thoughts, your choices
Nice rant, but you're ignoring something. The post I was replying to stated that there should be a law that EVERYTHING anybody ordered (and there were no exceptions for anything) should be available within 3 to 4 weeks. That's an all encompassing statement and doesn't take into account any kind of lead time including design and tooling.
EMD and GE (as well as Boeing, Airbus, etc.) also deliver a fairly standardized product and they're often products that, even when "new", are improvements on prior existing products. The last time Boeing came out with an engineered from a blank sheet commercial aircraft (the 747), it almost went bankrupt. In any case, railroads and airlines order new equipment in multiple units not one at a time. No model railroader I've ever heard of orders new locos or cars in increments of 25-50 or more regardless of whether the tooling already exists or not.
All those who are ranting about vapourware items seem to forget that the model railroad market as a whole is quite a small market overall and is 'Balkanized" by scale, era and prototype. The age when (at least for HO) a generic Mantua 4-6-2 would do for everybody and essentially the same item is on the market year after year after year with maybe minor changes is gone. It ain't coming back.
As a manufacturer, you can sell to thousands of customers 1 at a time or you can sell to fewer customers with multiple units. The last place I worked had only 500 customers. Of those 500, the top 20 represented 80% of the business. How many units of a given model railroad item are you willing to buy to make it worthwhile for a manufacturer to produce something new?
Pennsy had 425 K4's. How many SPF's do there have to be to guarantee a manufacturer at least a like of amount of sales? And that's a popular railroad with a popular engine. I wouldn't take one at any price. If you gave me one, I wouldn't turn it down, but there's no price I'm willing to pay to get just one, let alone multiples.
Not being privy to the manufacturer's books, I don't know how big the demand would have be for something like, say, a Harriman Heavy Pacific to be produced to recover costs and make a small profit. For the sake of argument, let's say 1,000 units. For the sake of argument, let's also assume that this engine is engineered from the ground up. Let's also assume that people who don't model SP (including the T&NO), the UP and the Chicago & Alton (later part of the GM&O) might be a potential market for at least one example since it's roughly the size of a USRA light.
Here's pics of locomotives from all 3 roads that actually owned Harriman Heavies.
http://www.yesteryeardepot.com/SP2454A.JPG
http://www.yesteryeardepot.com/UP3114.JPG
http://www.railarchive.net/gmogallery/alton5294tb.htm
As built Alton engine: http://www.railarchive.net/gmogallery/ca658.htm
So, which one do we use as the basis of our model? How many tender variations do we make, if any? SP used Worthington BL FWH's on some of its coast line P-6's (until removed around 1952) and I've seen at least one pic for a T&NO P-6 with an Elesco. The Alton version shows a Worthington SA. To the best of my knowledge, the UP versions didn't use any FWH, You'll also notice that both the UP version and C&A versions have Boxpok mains. The UP version has an extended smokebox. Harriman Heavies were all built that way, but the SP and C&A shortened them. UP's engines weren't limited to either coal or oil fuel, but could burn either depending on a number of factors.
Now we're into the good stuff. UP used several different tenders on their engines (at least from pics I've seen). Some UP engines were equipped with Delta trailing trucks, although certainly not all. I've got a copy of Southern Pacifc Steam series volume 36 sitting in front of me. In order of appearance, I see pics of SP P-6 #2453 in 1947 equipped with what I believe is a 90R-1 (rectangular 9000 gal.) tender and no FWH. On the next page is #2454 in 1949 with a Worthington BL FWH and what may be a 120C-2 (12000 gal cylindrical) tender. That's followed by #2454 in 1953 with a 90R-1 tender (and no FWH since it was removed in 1952). The last coast line pic is #2457 (sent to T&NO in 1937) in 1936 with no FWH and what I think is a 100C-2 (10000 gal cylindrical) tender. The only pic of a P-6 in the T&NO section is #614 in 1941 with an Elesco FWH and a 100C-1 (?) tender.
So tell me. How many variations do we make and in what quantity for each? How many different tenders do we offer? If we want to tap the free-lance market, do we emphasize the Alton version and offer it with either a coal or oil tender? How many UP fans would buy one if we didn't offer the extended smokebox? Suppose we only made the Coast Lines SP engine with and without the Worthington FWH and with two tender variants (we'd be nice guys and make the tops of the oil bunkers removable for the solid fuel guys). How would that limit our market? It would probably be cheaper not to offer all the variants, but would that limit our market so much that we couldn't recover tooling costs let alone make a profit? Would we be blithering idiots for not taking advance reservations?
There are a lot of people out there who seem to forgot that there are a lot of questions that have to be answered before even bothering to start work on a new item.
BLI only makes the as built versions of the USRA light and Heavy 2-8-2's. Imagine the issues they'd have if they tried to make some of the variants (how many different variants of the NKP H-6 were there - FWH variants, tender variants, etc.?).
And, while we're at it, this is a USRA Heavy 4-6-2 copy: http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=800810
So's this: http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=312592
And so's this: http://www.billspennsyphotos.com/apps/photos/photo?photoID=74102842
All of them are Erie prototype. Which one will sell best?
fantastic links, Andre....wow!!