I am planing a point to point railroad although I am getting family pressure for continuous run. If I stick with the point to point concept, are staging yards worth the space? I have an interest in running at least two passenger trains (eastbound and westbound). I want to interchange with other railroads. I am modeling the N&W in 1955. I want to interchange with the Southern and possibly the C&O. Staging tracks seem to be the answer but man they can eat up space. Other concerns include whether or not a detection system is a good idea for hidden staging. I am not the greatest electrical engineer, so things like track detection scare me. What are your opinions and experiences? My layout will be in a 20x 30 foot room (more or less). I plan single track mainline with passing sidings and of course industries. I am constructing a yard that will be about 1/2 way. It will have the mainline, 2 arrival/departure tracks, 5 classification tracks, servicing facilities, turntable and roundhouse.
Craig North Carolina
YES, if you can work them in. They don't have to be hidden or on a different level. They allow you to bring trains on the layout from different simulated places in different directions. If you are an operator, it really extends what you can do.
My RR is in a 9 x 24 room and I have a single main that goes around the room twice. At one end I have a staging / interchange yard with three tracks. (wish I put in more) If that yard is full, I operate point to point. If I leave a track open I can have a continuous run. You may want to take a look at my small web page about my RR. The link is in my signature block below.
Elmer.
The above is my opinion, from an active and experienced Model Railroader in N scale and HO since 1961.
(Modeling Freelance, Eastern US, HO scale, in 1962, with NCE DCC for locomotive control and a stand alone LocoNet for block detection and signals.) http://waynes-trains.com/ at home, and N scale at the Club.
My current under-construction layout (at the tape-on-the-floor outline stage) is a shortline running one local from an interchange to switch industries and return to the interchange. No hidden staging, but I'm only running one train that stays in three towns for the entire run. The interchange however acts as staging - all the cars enter and leave the railroad there.
My previous layout (click the link in my signature) ran several trains and was point-to-point with staging tracks shared by both ends of the mainline. I only ran three trains from staging yard to staging yard and I wanted MORE staging capability.
I'd go for the staging. It adds so many operating opportunities to any layout.
I agree, they are worth it.. I have around the room layout but I still have staging and planning expanding it real soon, for me it will add some train yard switching action and a place to store my cars and I dont like taking them on and off the layout anymore than I have too.
Staging yards are definently worth the space, especially when you model the N&W. You should have on one either end. I have one staging yard on my railroad but one more on the other end would be great so I wouldn't have to run the train backwards back through the town.
The Lone Geep
Lone Geep
\
They are worth it , my new layout has some and I am already looking for space for more .
Had you considered a "hidden" return loop? That would satisfy both you and your family..............
And I like "staging yards" myself, but I like to have fully assembled trains ready to roll at any time, obviously I'm not into switching and such, just like to run trains and watch them. Makes all my troubles go away and I get to enjoy a world of imagination and fantasy for awhile, also lowers my blood pressure and puts a smile on my ugly old face.
Mark
In my O/P when you run point to point operations they are almost essential. I personally like hidden staging mine is under construction in another part of the basement which has been put on hold temporarily. This way if you wish a person can be there building trains and dispatching them etc. If your not into operations it just makes for a more believable scenario having a "new" train appear on the scene coming out of a tunnel or over a bridge. Not everyone has this luxury so incorporating a staging yard with in the the confines of the layout is another option. I know it's difficult when the family gets involved and wants to ad their two cents worth when it comes to layout design and construction but hey look on the brite side at least they are interested and want to participate in some way.
No reason your staging tracks can't be a series of return loops giving you both options. An eay circuit for stopping trains is just to add a block at the end of the track so the engines stop themselves and energize the block to reset the trains.
My current layout has a total of 6 staging tracks - really not enough after a lot of thinking. Even if you do not 'operate', they are very useful for storing those 'extra' trains we all aquire! If I build a new layout, it will have 10-12 staging tracks.
Staging is one of those thing most folks do not 'get' - Until they are at least 6 months into a layout build and realize the folley of their ways....
Jim
Modeling BNSF and Milwaukee Road in SW Wisconsin
If you have a point-to-point layout, and you are not content with the pace at which you can turn a train or break up and make up a train at each end, then you need staging and/or a continuous run. It all depends on your intended operations. Since your desired operations mentions high (relative) speed passenger service, those will take less time to traverse your limited main line. And you don't mention enjoying turning a train or making up/breaking up trains in the two terminals. So I suspect you will want staging and/or continuous run.
For those of us who don't mind one train at a time sequential ops, or for whom terminal operations are pleasant rather than a chore, staging is more of a nice-to-have.
Staging can be as simple as a passing siding where you direct that a train be held. It doesn't have to be hidden, although out of sight tends to help the illusion. As has been mentioned adding return loops at both ends gives you the advantage of both staging and continuous run when you want it. If you are using DCC, the autoreversers make return loops much easier to operate.
100% adherence to strict operational procedures can eliminate the need for detection or monitoring of hidden track. OTOH, if you can't/won't enforce strict operational procedures, then some kind of monitoring (and rerailing access) will be needed.
my thoughts, your choices
Fred W
Absolutely...I have one that is all of 8" by 3' on a HO scale logging layout and love it. It is bolted up against a wall and only consists of 3 short sidings that all enter the layout through a double track portal. There is a removable "roof" over this short staging area with trees, structures, etc. It isn't very large but it really adds to the operational enjoyment of the model railroad.
Wayne
Modeling HO Freelance Logging Railroad.
YES.
Terry
Terry in NW Wisconsin
Queenbogey715 is my Youtube channel
My three deck Santa Fe has a total of 4 staging yards for the Santa Fe, two for the BN line. The largest staging is 8 tracks which is part of the Oklahoma City Flynn yard and are visible. At the back the tracks go out of sight into a mole hole staging area.
There is a Waynoka staging yard, a Kiowa staging yard, and a Cherokee staging yard all ATSF. The Waynoka staging is a visible, sceniced staging, Cherokee is hiden, and the Kiowa staging is represented by the Enid dist.connecting with the transcon mainline, all staging areas.
Then I have the BN staging at Tulsa mostly visible, and staging at the west end of the line, hidden.
Obviously, I believe in staging for operation, and have been doing layouts that way since 1962.
Bob
They are definitely worth it. Make sure you have enough staging tracks for all trains. I highly recommend adding a decent amount more than you think you need. I have 15 staging tracks for my BNSF Montana Division and quite honestly need more to handle the amount of trains that can be run in an OP session. I thought I had a good handle on the number, but with extras and different days trains I definitely could use more. Do not skimp on staging! You'll be glad you didn't . I'm thinking of doing a major layout overhaul just for more staging. PW
For a relatively simple point to point design, your interchange yard is your primary staging. The interchange road may or may not be modeled. The basic premise is the interchange railroad drops off cars in the yard, then your point to point road sorts, blocks and runs them up the line to their destinations, and then brings back the cars to the yard to be dispersed to the wider world. By sticking to these basics, no, you don't really need staging.
However, creating staging tracks that represent the interchange road's destinations, say, east to Norfolk or west to Cincinnati, will make your layout is much more interesting. There can be industries that ship to the west, and probably coal tipples shipping to the east. Now the yard has to sort the outbound cars so they're pointed in the right direction, and you can have a train run out of staging to the yard to pick them up and get them out of your way. You now have more capacity in your yard, and the potential to add a better variety of industries to the line.
Another way to add interest would be to include a single large industry, like a major lumber mill, a paper manufacturer, or an auto plant that would require a dedicated switch job. That, in combination with a coal operation, and a series of smaller industries will create opportunities to run three different trains on a regular basis.
Hope this helps.
Lee
Route of the Alpha Jets www.wmrywesternlines.net
While staging tracks can be a blessing they can also be a hindrance on operation nights in fact they can become a operation killer if staging becomes the primary source of traffic instead of the working yards..
On a larger point to point I am not sure if I would have staging..A smaller point to point yes but,only as a secondary destination and I would use return loop staging..
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Craig,
I don't usually respond to track planning questions because there are TOO MANY variables and everyone has different wants/needs/interests/desires/views/etc.
I have however designed about a dozen layouts for other modelers over the years.
Personally, I would not build a layout of any size, bigger than lets a say a 3x12 switching layout, that did not include a continuous run provision.
Personally I like through staging for large layouts. Also I like loops, preferably mostly hidden or disquised, for the turning and re-staging of complete consists even if they are run in a "point to point" operating scheme.
Our model railroads are TOO small to generate much traffic or be the destination of much traffic, so staging is more than necessary in my view.
BUT, I like and want ALL aspects of operation, switching, mainline running, dispatching, CTC, passenger train setup and operation, power changes, etc.
What I don't like is too much of any one of these, so the layout needs to provide BALANCE. True point to point layouts have too much switching/terminal work, not enough mainline for me.
AND, non model railroader friends and family like to see trains run, not watch someone work a switch list.
I also try very hard to only model each MAJOR element once - one visable freight yard, one engine terminal, one large passenger terminal (OK, I do have a number of lesser passenger stops), one water front scene, one good coal mine, etc,etc.
All my attempts to model both "ends" of a line have been unsuccessful in achieving a realistic result.
My current layout space is 24 x 40 and a new layout is about to begin which will include:
8 scale miles of double track mainline on two decks
staging for 25 trains - freight trains 30-35 cars, passenger trains 10-12 cars
an 8 track, 18' long freight yard
a 4 track, 8' long passenger terminal
a 40 car piggyback terminal
a 20 car coach yard
an engine terminal with 12 stall roundhouse and ready tracks for about 20 average 1st geneation diesels
interchanges with three other roads
off scene connections with 8 different staging "destinations"
signaling and "simplified" CTC for mainline operation
some 25 industries mostly served from the one freight yard via a belt line - without ever going out on the mainline - large class one railroads have few "online" industries directly along their mainline, especially in older industrial areas - most industries are served by branch lines or industrial belt lines so that the "local" does not tie up the main, or they have industrial sidings that keep mailine movemets to a minimum.
And lastly, but not least - the ability to run 5 to 6 display "loops" for non railroader viewing - OR - just because I might want to have some action while I work the yard, even if I'm playing "alone".
Many others will disagree with my views and that's fine. What works for them would not work for me.
But in my opinion, staging and continuous running are NECESSARY.
As for the detection issue, don't let that scare you, design the layout first, then figure out what you need to track the trains. There are simple ways to know when a train is safely in the staging, or, make it partly visable.
Sheldon
IMPORTANT DISCLAIMER - I don't use DCC, I don't like onboard sound in HO, I don't view all model train operation from the perspective of "being the Engineer" and I like to model/run alone as well as with a group.
Yes, but don'tg forget that on a switching shelf, a staging yard can aslo be a metal ghutter shape with one end closed and track in it. Take it down, put new train in, add to tlayout.
My dream layout will actullay have two stagers, I want a p-to-p of Madison IN, and there's a stoarge yard in the old Jefferson Proving Grounds. The Interchanged Chessie would be an around the layout (like the Staging is for the Lakeside Lines I think) single track loop with a large yard in the back of it, along with the interchange yard of the CMPA. But that;s for a larger layyot. For a smaller shelf, a few offstage wings will to the trick.
-Morgan
Craig....
Yes, staging is worth it. My C&O transition era RR would not work without it given its modest footprint (10 x 13 - we don't have basements here in the Low Country of SC, so its in the garage) and I've opted for a continous run feature. Though in practice the RR will be operated as if its point to point.
On option for 'monitoring' hidden staging tracks is cheap, low light capable security cameras and a video monitor. I used a very small wireless video baby monitor on the previous RR and it worked out very nicely. If you shop carefully the cost can be the same and maybe less as compared to electronic detection systems - plus you get the all important warm fuzzy by being able to see things.
Charles
The club I was in was designed point to point but had a hidden track to loop for a continuous run.
Hidden staging, yea, but then you could make a visible interchange and fiddle there.
My original plan for my model railroad was for a point to point without staging. I recently connected the two ends with a bridge staging yard. It works much better for operations and it is fun to let a train run for a while while working on something else. - Nevin
BRAKIE While staging tracks can be a blessing they can also be a hindrance on operation nights in fact they can become a operation killer if staging becomes the primary source of traffic instead of the working yards.. On a larger point to point I am not sure if I would have staging..A smaller point to point yes but,only as a secondary destination and I would use return loop staging..
Brakie, I seldom disagree with you but I do not find staging a hinderance on operating sessions. In fact, I could not run the volume of trains we run if I didn'have lots of staging. I especially disagree in the case of a large point to point, which my layout is. The only return loop on the railroad is one that connects the top deck with the middle deck and used only for testing equipment and when I am on tour for Santa Fe modelers or NMRA.
AikidomasterI have an interest in running at least two passenger trains (eastbound and westbound). I want to interchange with other railroads. I am modeling the N&W in 1955. I want to interchange with the Southern and possibly the C&O. Staging tracks seem to be the answer but man they can eat up space.
AikidomasterI am constructing a yard that will be about 1/2 way. It will have the mainline, 2 arrival/departure tracks, 5 classification tracks, servicing facilities, turntable and roundhouse.
With a 20x30 room there should be space for staging on a lower level that doesn't take away any layout space..
Elmer,
Went to your webpage and saw your layout. It looks great!!. I love the control panel that you built. What kind of material did you use for the panel itself? The graphics on the panel are superb. What did you use for them?
The White River Southern is fantastic. I love the level of detail! What I would like to know is how did you decide on the number of staging tracks? Did you make a schedule for running trains first? I would imagine that the planned length of a train also plays a part. I intend to run N&W Class A and Y6b's. These will be the mainline power with a few smaller locomotives such as Southern MS4 (2-8-2), N&W Class K3, and Southern FT's. I am planning to run some passenger trains pulled by Class J's with about 5-6 cars.
I would wonder if return loops would "eat up" more space than just point to point.
Fred,
You bring up a good point that I had not thought about, turning a train. Since I intend to use primarily steam locomotives for motive power, it would be a logical thought of how to turn them. I did have a "Y" for turning trains in one section of my old layout (when I was in Virginia). I made it just large enough to turn the motive power. There was a small 3 track yard nearby for the rest of the train.
The more that I think about it, the better I like it. I think that having a yard at one end with a "Y" for turning motive power would be great. I could use an 0-8-0 (S1a) or 2-8-0 (W2) as yard switchers to breakdown trains. I might put a 2nd turntable at the other end for the same purpose. I am coming to the point of placing a 130 foot turntable in the main yard that is in the "middle" of the layout (with a roundhouse). I will have to think about whether or not that turntable is needed.
Thanks!!
Holy Moly!! 15 staging tracks would probably eat up most of the layout space at both ends! This is especially true since I am in the middle of completing my main yard. It has a mainline, 2 arrival/departure tracks and 5 classification tracks. There is an area for servicing that has 3 tracks (I built the FSM coaling tower years ago and wanted a place for it on the layout). I also have an ashpit by Diamond Scale. I am about to go to the next step of installing a 130 foot Walthers turntable and Walthers 6 stall roundhouse. I think I have gone too far to want to turn back at the moment. Maybe in 10 years or so.