MisterBeasley If you really want to know if a guy is a model railroader, ask his wife.
If you really want to know if a guy is a model railroader, ask his wife.
And if she rolls her eyes skyward and gives you "that" look....
...you must be talking to my wife!
John
selector You erect it, and gosh if you don't do a bang up job of it. You send a photo of it sitting on your kitchen table to Model Railroader and they decline to publish. Are we all in agreement? It isn't model railroading.
You erect it, and gosh if you don't do a bang up job of it. You send a photo of it sitting on your kitchen table to Model Railroader and they decline to publish. Are we all in agreement? It isn't model railroading.
One thing to recognize is that FSM spends thousands of dollars on advertising. They produce catalogs with pictures of the model in it. Thousands of modelers read their ads. Hundreds of modelers buy the kit and assemble it. Hundreds or thousands see the model on other people's layout.
Chances are if many modelers saw a picture of the model standing alone or on a layout they would recognize it as a commercially developed structure, many could identify it as an FSM kit and many could tell you which kit it is.
If I saw pictures of a layout, I couldn't tell whether is a commercial design or a homemade design.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
jwhitten "In Need of Professional Help!" From time-to-time I have read articles in the model press, including Model Railroader magazine, or on various forums, about people who have literally "purchased" their entire railroads in one go-- by which I mean they contracted with a layout design and construction firm to do all the planning and all the work. And from the examples I've seen they generally *look* okay to me. They seem well-designed and thought-out, well made and nicely apportioned, fully-scenicked and, frankly, look like they might be a lot of fun to run and operate. But, curiously, sometimes the reaction to such a layout is negative and, or even downright nasty. I recall one specific example in Model Railroader a few years ago about a fellow who contracted with a firm to design and deliver a layout based on a locomotive servicing facility. He didn't have much space, liked locomotives, and after consultation it was decided that a service facility would be a good fit for his wishes. I forget offhand why he didn't want to do it himself, but it doesn't really matter, whatever the reason, he just elected to "buy" his railroad rather than build it. Well, in the very next issue there were letters from people complaining about how he wasn't really a model railroader and that it was somehow "cheating" since he had it built and didn't build it himself. I remember my own thoughts, more or less, while reading the article showcasing the layout, which was something like "Boy, this is over the top commercialism. Even for Model Railroader-- they're stooping to new lows... (mumble mumble) Cow-towing to their commercial advertisers, etc." Then when I read the feedback in the next issue, I realized it was probably a common reaction. I re-read the article several times to try to figure out what it was that bothered me about it, but I was never able to quite decide what it was. But it stands to reason that simply the knowledge that it was professionally built, as everything else about it looked normal, and in fact quite nice. It was a model railroad after all! Interestingly though, I don't have the same reaction to layouts in museums, shopping centers, professional buildings, or anywhere else. Perhaps its the fact that they are housed in a "professional" location and its expected that they would be professional designed and constructed. Perhaps it simply the knowledge that the layout was professionally designed in a hobby where most modelers typically pride themselves on their own accomplishments-- and expect that their modeling brethren are similarly engaged in designing and constructing their own layouts-- to whatever degree and ability they can. But what about the layouts that were commercially-contracted out by the modeler? Apparently that is a different story, but maybe people don't really know how to approach it-- not quite sure what to say, or how to approach it. And anyway, what is there really to say when the whole thing has been designed and built by professionals who know all the secrets and all the tricks? It'd be a bit like trying to critique a Disney World exhibit! (A real Mickey Mouse operation there, if ever there was one! :-) The layout may be uniformly well-done, and yet other than "ownership", it is not really "of" the modeler in the same sense as a home-made layout is. So that's one thing... The other is this-- let's break it down some, just for the heck of it... From one perspective, nearly all layouts are really "store-bought" at some level, when you consider that the construction materials are almost always purchased. Whether then combined or placed as-is on the layout being kind-of immaterial. The lumber is typically purchased, the track materials, the trains and rolling stock, the structures, the switches and wiring, the throttles or DCC control units-- whatever. Even if you scratch-build, you still probably purchased the materials rather than whittling your own window frames and casting your own door knobs-- though I'm sure there are some who do exactly that! And I'm not trying to call one type a "Model Railroader" and another type "Not a Railroader"-- that's not where I'm going with all this. So, My Questions For Today Are: -- Suppose you found out that the owner of some layout you admire really, in fact, contracted with a commercial design and construction firm to create the entire layout? -- Or maybe they just consulted with a professional design firm to develop the track plan and that's all-- the modeler did everything else? Or maybe it was the track plan and the benchwork? Or the track plan, benchwork, some scenicking and the major structures...?? -- Where is the threshold point? How much, and of what, has to be "store-bought" before the "negative connotation" emerges? I reckon that's what I'm really asking. -- Or, maybe you're not bothered by the idea of a "store-bought" layout. Why or why not? -- How would you feel about the modeler him or herself, if you find out that some or all of their layout has been professionally contracted out? Would that change your opinion? Do you think the modeler ought to be "required" to "fess up" and inform people of the layout's status? As always, I'm looking for your thoughts and opinions-- and photos too if you got 'em! John
"In Need of Professional Help!"
From time-to-time I have read articles in the model press, including Model Railroader magazine, or on various forums, about people who have literally "purchased" their entire railroads in one go-- by which I mean they contracted with a layout design and construction firm to do all the planning and all the work. And from the examples I've seen they generally *look* okay to me. They seem well-designed and thought-out, well made and nicely apportioned, fully-scenicked and, frankly, look like they might be a lot of fun to run and operate.
But, curiously, sometimes the reaction to such a layout is negative and, or even downright nasty. I recall one specific example in Model Railroader a few years ago about a fellow who contracted with a firm to design and deliver a layout based on a locomotive servicing facility. He didn't have much space, liked locomotives, and after consultation it was decided that a service facility would be a good fit for his wishes. I forget offhand why he didn't want to do it himself, but it doesn't really matter, whatever the reason, he just elected to "buy" his railroad rather than build it. Well, in the very next issue there were letters from people complaining about how he wasn't really a model railroader and that it was somehow "cheating" since he had it built and didn't build it himself.
I remember my own thoughts, more or less, while reading the article showcasing the layout, which was something like "Boy, this is over the top commercialism. Even for Model Railroader-- they're stooping to new lows... (mumble mumble) Cow-towing to their commercial advertisers, etc." Then when I read the feedback in the next issue, I realized it was probably a common reaction. I re-read the article several times to try to figure out what it was that bothered me about it, but I was never able to quite decide what it was. But it stands to reason that simply the knowledge that it was professionally built, as everything else about it looked normal, and in fact quite nice. It was a model railroad after all!
Interestingly though, I don't have the same reaction to layouts in museums, shopping centers, professional buildings, or anywhere else. Perhaps its the fact that they are housed in a "professional" location and its expected that they would be professional designed and constructed.
Perhaps it simply the knowledge that the layout was professionally designed in a hobby where most modelers typically pride themselves on their own accomplishments-- and expect that their modeling brethren are similarly engaged in designing and constructing their own layouts-- to whatever degree and ability they can.
But what about the layouts that were commercially-contracted out by the modeler? Apparently that is a different story, but maybe people don't really know how to approach it-- not quite sure what to say, or how to approach it. And anyway, what is there really to say when the whole thing has been designed and built by professionals who know all the secrets and all the tricks? It'd be a bit like trying to critique a Disney World exhibit! (A real Mickey Mouse operation there, if ever there was one! :-) The layout may be uniformly well-done, and yet other than "ownership", it is not really "of" the modeler in the same sense as a home-made layout is.
So that's one thing...
The other is this-- let's break it down some, just for the heck of it...
From one perspective, nearly all layouts are really "store-bought" at some level, when you consider that the construction materials are almost always purchased. Whether then combined or placed as-is on the layout being kind-of immaterial. The lumber is typically purchased, the track materials, the trains and rolling stock, the structures, the switches and wiring, the throttles or DCC control units-- whatever. Even if you scratch-build, you still probably purchased the materials rather than whittling your own window frames and casting your own door knobs-- though I'm sure there are some who do exactly that!
And I'm not trying to call one type a "Model Railroader" and another type "Not a Railroader"-- that's not where I'm going with all this.
So, My Questions For Today Are:
-- Suppose you found out that the owner of some layout you admire really, in fact, contracted with a commercial design and construction firm to create the entire layout?
-- Or maybe they just consulted with a professional design firm to develop the track plan and that's all-- the modeler did everything else? Or maybe it was the track plan and the benchwork? Or the track plan, benchwork, some scenicking and the major structures...??
-- Where is the threshold point? How much, and of what, has to be "store-bought" before the "negative connotation" emerges? I reckon that's what I'm really asking.
-- Or, maybe you're not bothered by the idea of a "store-bought" layout. Why or why not?
-- How would you feel about the modeler him or herself, if you find out that some or all of their layout has been professionally contracted out? Would that change your opinion? Do you think the modeler ought to be "required" to "fess up" and inform people of the layout's status?
As always, I'm looking for your thoughts and opinions-- and photos too if you got 'em!
the other day i woke up and had some coffee and then i thought what a great day to drive my car around the block and maybe see if that rattle was still loose under the car but after i had my coffee i needed to clean the pot when i realized that if i used plaster on my walls in my house after repairing the wall maybe i could use the plaster on my railroad so i drove along the tracks near my house and saw a train it was long maybe 45 cars i don't remember but the coffee pot was hot and i thought about how many people are rude when they talk about other peoples railroads like NS or something because i like csx i get alot of flack for it just like my railroad which i built completely by myself with plaster cloth and cardboard lacing which made me think that if i only paid someone to work on it for me i would still be made fun of for not building it myself now i don't think i do a bad job its just that other people are better except i know all of the csx road numbers by heart and people are kind of impressed by that but usually theres some other guy that knows which chessie engine was used in williard in 1978 which i do not know but i am still learning i guess someday i will try and write a book but its so difficult finding a publisher that will print my book maybe it is because there is a lot of editing involved not sure if i type too much but if anyone knows a publisher that i can contact i would appreciate it so after i had drive around the street i came back and built a ready to run building and put it on my layout which looks really good i must say but then i decided to make my own scenery material so i went out back and cut down a tree by hand and brought a limb inside where i cut it down and used the sawdust and painted it green and i used that for ground cover on the farm i have now i am not too proud that i did that because i know people will think it looks cheap but in this economy i am doing the best i possibly can do considering that i have not refinanced my house and i was unemployed for a year or so but i am hoping that once i get my book published i will use the money to create a huge representation of the sand patch grade in the apalachian mountains it will be so coool but i am not so great at creating my own track plan so maybe i will have to get help on that which defeats the purpose of doing it myself plus i will have to pay someone money that i do not have so i do not know what to do i suppose i will have to cross that bridge when i get to it which reminds me i saw a great train bridge the other day that still said pennsylvanina on it and i thought that was amazing how it said that since i do not even see conrail on any bridges i mean pennsylvanina was out of business in 1980 and i think that bridge was built in 1979 or something i would like to build my own bridge that says new york central but i am not sure if there is one so i will have to build it myself with decals i think just like i was able to find some miniature cows for the farm but i can not believe there is no bridge that says chesapeake and ohio now i dont mind if i see someones trains and they didnt make it themselves and museum displays are always cool i just wished i knew who made them and club layouts are never made by the people that are running the trains they always say that the those guys are here today or they havent been around for a long time or they died a long time ago which makes me think the the guys running the trains are so lucky to have a train layout that is already created for them and all they have to do is show up and run trains but i suppose they still have to maintain it somehow to keep the trains running and to keep the dust from getting to thick on the buildings in the city but sometimes that natural dust looks real and everyone these days is so particular about making things look exactly like it is in real life when i see that i think its cool but wish i had the skills to paint my freight cars with rust and grafiti just like the real ones but since i model n and ho scale i have to make some sacrifices which is why o scale seems good except that i will need about 500 square feet of room to run a 50 car train but thats the way the cookie crumbles i guess which reminds me i need to finish my coffee
LOL. Now that's probably the longest sentence I've ever seen.
Springfield PA
Could you expand on that thought?
ccaranna the other day i woke up and had some coffee and then i thought what a great day to drive my car around the block and maybe see if that rattle was still loose under the car but after i had my coffee i needed to clean the pot when i realized that if i used plaster on my walls in my house after repairing the wall maybe i could use the plaster on my railroad so i drove along the tracks near my house and saw a train it was long maybe 45 cars i don't remember but the coffee pot was hot and i thought about how many people are rude when they talk about other peoples railroads like NS or something because i like csx i get alot of flack for it just like my railroad which i built completely by myself with plaster cloth and cardboard lacing which made me think that if i only paid someone to work on it for me i would still be made fun of for not building it myself now i don't think i do a bad job its just that other people are better except i know all of the csx road numbers by heart and people are kind of impressed by that but usually theres some other guy that knows which chessie engine was used in williard in 1978 which i do not know but i am still learning i guess someday i will try and write a book but its so difficult finding a publisher that will print my book maybe it is because there is a lot of editing involved not sure if i type too much but if anyone knows a publisher that i can contact i would appreciate it so after i had drive around the street i came back and built a ready to run building and put it on my layout which looks really good i must say but then i decided to make my own scenery material so i went out back and cut down a tree by hand and brought a limb inside where i cut it down and used the sawdust and painted it green and i used that for ground cover on the farm i have now i am not too proud that i did that because i know people will think it looks cheap but in this economy i am doing the best i possibly can do considering that i have not refinanced my house and i was unemployed for a year or so but i am hoping that once i get my book published i will use the money to create a huge representation of the sand patch grade in the apalachian mountains it will be so coool but i am not so great at creating my own track plan so maybe i will have to get help on that which defeats the purpose of doing it myself plus i will have to pay someone money that i do not have so i do not know what to do i suppose i will have to cross that bridge when i get to it which reminds me i saw a great train bridge the other day that still said pennsylvanina on it and i thought that was amazing how it said that since i do not even see conrail on any bridges i mean pennsylvanina was out of business in 1980 and i think that bridge was built in 1979 or something i would like to build my own bridge that says new york central but i am not sure if there is one so i will have to build it myself with decals i think just like i was able to find some miniature cows for the farm but i can not believe there is no bridge that says chesapeake and ohio now i dont mind if i see someones trains and they didnt make it themselves and museum displays are always cool i just wished i knew who made them and club layouts are never made by the people that are running the trains they always say that the those guys are here today or they havent been around for a long time or they died a long time ago which makes me think the the guys running the trains are so lucky to have a train layout that is already created for them and all they have to do is show up and run trains but i suppose they still have to maintain it somehow to keep the trains running and to keep the dust from getting to thick on the buildings in the city but sometimes that natural dust looks real and everyone these days is so particular about making things look exactly like it is in real life when i see that i think its cool but wish i had the skills to paint my freight cars with rust and grafiti just like the real ones but since i model n and ho scale i have to make some sacrifices which is why o scale seems good except that i will need about 500 square feet of room to run a 50 car train but thats the way the cookie crumbles i guess which reminds me i need to finish my coffee
If I might offer three items of advice...
#1. Drink smaller cups of coffee...
#2. Hit return a couple of times about every fifth line or so.
#3. Keep on loving trains! I'd buy your book-- put me down for one of the first copies!
john
It could be why some people aren't overly fond of "instant model railroaders" with their prefabricated layouts is the same in most life situations where there are resentments for the "nouveau riche" (newly rich) who try to buy their way into neighborhoods, yacht clubs, golf clubs, high society, etc. As in "Just who do they think they are, calling themselves model railroaders, when their only effort was writing a check?". Perhaps a better term would be "model railroad owners".
Bob Boudreau
CANADA
Visit my model railroad photography website: http://sites.google.com/site/railphotog/
jwhitten richhotrain: selector: We can have a model train set, or a model railroad, but we aren't modelling...we are playing with them. Modelling, per se, is the act of rendering an item in scale. Few of us really go to those lengths these days. -Crandell Crandell, Shame on you. We are all model railroaders, from the guy who lays track on an old door and runs an engine in a loop to the guy who pays a small fortune to have his layout professionally built to all the rest of us who fall somewhere in between who build our own layouts, large and small, and enjoy the hobby. As for the author of this thread, I don't know what he wants. Back in May, he wrote about a layout that he hated. It was so egregious in his view that it was a caricature of what a train layout should be. He didn't like the layout, he didn't like the landscaping, he didn't like the structures, he didn't like the little people, he didn't like the weathering. Gotta feel sorry for the "model railroader" who built it. Now, he wants to know where is the threshold point on commercially designed layouts or "store-bought" items before the "negative connotation" emerges. All of this negativity does not promote the hobby in my view. C'mon fellas, we are all model railroaders. Yes we are! Rich Wow, you sure are reading a lot more into this than I had in mind. My original goal of this thread was to simply to discuss how people felt about engaging in professional commercial model railroading services, whether getting assistance developing a trackplan, or building benchwork, to the outright purchase of an entire layout. I even went so far as to put in bright red, bold print that I didn't want to start a 'who is/ who isn't a model railroader' thread, though as far as I'm concerned you're welcome to state that too if its your opinion, but that wasn't the point of my thread. In reading Crandell's answer, he was talking about people who *model* something, not whether or not they are a "Model Railroader". In fact, I don't think anybody here has said people are not "Model Railroaders" even if they buy a layout (maybe somebody did and I missed it). But what people *have* said in a number of threads, is that there is a difference between a "Model Railroader" and a "Railroad Modeler". The first is someone who self-identifies themselves with the hobby in some manner. Whether they talk about it, dream about it, read all the magazines, build or buy a layout, or join a club and operate on the club layout. I'm pretty sure that most of the folks here would mostly agree that anybody who *thinks* they are a "Model Railroader" and wants to be in the hobby, *is* a Model Railroader. (Maybe I'm wrong, but that seems to me to be the gist from most of the respondents.) On the other hand, a number of folks-- including Crandell-- have said that they believe there is another facet, or "category" if you'd rather, of people who are "Railroad Modelers", who actively engage in the actual design and construction Railroad-related models, whether its building locomotives and rolling stock, or constructing buildings and structures, or putting together benchwork and laying track so as to construct a complete railroad *model*. The difference being the element of creativity and participation, and the actual work-effort required, regardless of the outcome, in building / constructing the models and/or layout. The nuance I have been interested in exploring in this post however, is (a) how people feel in general about "buying" a commercial layout, and (b) if they have an issue with the former, how does it break down in its components-- which element or elements do people have the most issue with, or if no one particular element-- at what stage is the "tipping point" that it goes from being recognized as a "work of art" (my words) constructed by the modeler, to a "commercial item" (whether art-worthy or not) *purchased* by the modeler? Back in May I wrote an article about a layout I actually liked-- and I said so right up front. YOU are just skipping over the parts that aren't convenient for your slant of the post. But it is true that I felt the layout had many of the "cliche" elements that people often discuss. AND, just for the record, I'm NOT the first one-- and probably far from the last one-- to write a post, or an article, such as that one. While I do not consider myself one of the "greats", nearly all of them have written a piece like that over the years-- from John Armstrong to Tony Koester and a whole lot of 'em in between. And some of them were far less gracious in their comments than I was. If you don't believe me, go research the articles and see for yourself. In fact, I had been *hoping* for my post to be viewed in a humorous fashion, but it wasn't interpreted that way by some-- apparently yourself included. I don't know why-- whether they are insecure in their modeling or layouts, or what. But I did apologize in the event that I offended anybody. If I did, it wasn't intentional-- and I had hoped to have a nice nuanced discussion about the various "cliches" that many people invariably include-- perhaps unintentionally-- on their layouts. But to say I "hated" the layout is just wrong. It was just a title designed to get attention for the post. In retrospect, I agree it was probably too emotionally-charged and I should have used a softer title. By the way, the word "cliche" isn't a specifically bad word, it merely means something that is done so often it becomes predictable or "pedantic". Here is a definition from the web: "A cliché or cliche (pronounced klē-ˈshā) is a saying, expression, idea, or element of an artistic work which has been overused to the point of losing its original meaning or effect, rendering it a stereotype, especially when at some earlier time it was considered meaningful or novel." John
richhotrain: selector: We can have a model train set, or a model railroad, but we aren't modelling...we are playing with them. Modelling, per se, is the act of rendering an item in scale. Few of us really go to those lengths these days. -Crandell Crandell, Shame on you. We are all model railroaders, from the guy who lays track on an old door and runs an engine in a loop to the guy who pays a small fortune to have his layout professionally built to all the rest of us who fall somewhere in between who build our own layouts, large and small, and enjoy the hobby. As for the author of this thread, I don't know what he wants. Back in May, he wrote about a layout that he hated. It was so egregious in his view that it was a caricature of what a train layout should be. He didn't like the layout, he didn't like the landscaping, he didn't like the structures, he didn't like the little people, he didn't like the weathering. Gotta feel sorry for the "model railroader" who built it. Now, he wants to know where is the threshold point on commercially designed layouts or "store-bought" items before the "negative connotation" emerges. All of this negativity does not promote the hobby in my view. C'mon fellas, we are all model railroaders. Yes we are! Rich
selector: We can have a model train set, or a model railroad, but we aren't modelling...we are playing with them. Modelling, per se, is the act of rendering an item in scale. Few of us really go to those lengths these days. -Crandell
We can have a model train set, or a model railroad, but we aren't modelling...we are playing with them. Modelling, per se, is the act of rendering an item in scale. Few of us really go to those lengths these days.
-Crandell
Crandell,
Shame on you. We are all model railroaders, from the guy who lays track on an old door and runs an engine in a loop to the guy who pays a small fortune to have his layout professionally built to all the rest of us who fall somewhere in between who build our own layouts, large and small, and enjoy the hobby.
As for the author of this thread, I don't know what he wants. Back in May, he wrote about a layout that he hated. It was so egregious in his view that it was a caricature of what a train layout should be. He didn't like the layout, he didn't like the landscaping, he didn't like the structures, he didn't like the little people, he didn't like the weathering. Gotta feel sorry for the "model railroader" who built it. Now, he wants to know where is the threshold point on commercially designed layouts or "store-bought" items before the "negative connotation" emerges.
All of this negativity does not promote the hobby in my view. C'mon fellas, we are all model railroaders. Yes we are!
Rich
Wow, you sure are reading a lot more into this than I had in mind. My original goal of this thread was to simply to discuss how people felt about engaging in professional commercial model railroading services, whether getting assistance developing a trackplan, or building benchwork, to the outright purchase of an entire layout. I even went so far as to put in bright red, bold print that I didn't want to start a 'who is/ who isn't a model railroader' thread, though as far as I'm concerned you're welcome to state that too if its your opinion, but that wasn't the point of my thread.
In reading Crandell's answer, he was talking about people who *model* something, not whether or not they are a "Model Railroader". In fact, I don't think anybody here has said people are not "Model Railroaders" even if they buy a layout (maybe somebody did and I missed it). But what people *have* said in a number of threads, is that there is a difference between a "Model Railroader" and a "Railroad Modeler".
The first is someone who self-identifies themselves with the hobby in some manner. Whether they talk about it, dream about it, read all the magazines, build or buy a layout, or join a club and operate on the club layout. I'm pretty sure that most of the folks here would mostly agree that anybody who *thinks* they are a "Model Railroader" and wants to be in the hobby, *is* a Model Railroader. (Maybe I'm wrong, but that seems to me to be the gist from most of the respondents.)
On the other hand, a number of folks-- including Crandell-- have said that they believe there is another facet, or "category" if you'd rather, of people who are "Railroad Modelers", who actively engage in the actual design and construction Railroad-related models, whether its building locomotives and rolling stock, or constructing buildings and structures, or putting together benchwork and laying track so as to construct a complete railroad *model*. The difference being the element of creativity and participation, and the actual work-effort required, regardless of the outcome, in building / constructing the models and/or layout.
The nuance I have been interested in exploring in this post however, is (a) how people feel in general about "buying" a commercial layout, and (b) if they have an issue with the former, how does it break down in its components-- which element or elements do people have the most issue with, or if no one particular element-- at what stage is the "tipping point" that it goes from being recognized as a "work of art" (my words) constructed by the modeler, to a "commercial item" (whether art-worthy or not) *purchased* by the modeler?
Back in May I wrote an article about a layout I actually liked-- and I said so right up front. YOU are just skipping over the parts that aren't convenient for your slant of the post. But it is true that I felt the layout had many of the "cliche" elements that people often discuss. AND, just for the record, I'm NOT the first one-- and probably far from the last one-- to write a post, or an article, such as that one. While I do not consider myself one of the "greats", nearly all of them have written a piece like that over the years-- from John Armstrong to Tony Koester and a whole lot of 'em in between. And some of them were far less gracious in their comments than I was. If you don't believe me, go research the articles and see for yourself.
In fact, I had been *hoping* for my post to be viewed in a humorous fashion, but it wasn't interpreted that way by some-- apparently yourself included. I don't know why-- whether they are insecure in their modeling or layouts, or what. But I did apologize in the event that I offended anybody. If I did, it wasn't intentional-- and I had hoped to have a nice nuanced discussion about the various "cliches" that many people invariably include-- perhaps unintentionally-- on their layouts. But to say I "hated" the layout is just wrong. It was just a title designed to get attention for the post. In retrospect, I agree it was probably too emotionally-charged and I should have used a softer title.
By the way, the word "cliche" isn't a specifically bad word, it merely means something that is done so often it becomes predictable or "pedantic". Here is a definition from the web: "A cliché or cliche (pronounced klē-ˈshā) is a saying, expression, idea, or element of an artistic work which has been overused to the point of losing its original meaning or effect, rendering it a stereotype, especially when at some earlier time it was considered meaningful or novel."
John,
I dunno. I can't figure it out. Maybe you are right, I am reading too much into this.
Maybe you should restate your original premise.
Do you not like professionally designed/constructed layouts?
Do you object to someone passing it off as his own work when it isn't?
Are you concerned that the hobby has drifted away from a hands on approach by amateur craftsmen?
Do you want us to stop referring to ourselves as model railroaders?
One thing that I have concluded is that I consider myself a "model railroader" because I built and landscaped my own layout (but with store bought materials). But, since I don't scratch build anything or weather locomotives or rolling stock, I have concluded that I am not a "modelling railroader". How's that guys for a new term?
In any event, I gotta stop this and go watch TV. The Bears are already behind 7-3 at home against a team that has lost 20 consecutive road games. And Tiger is 3 over par after 4 holes and isn't going to make the Fed Ex Final. So, you think that you have problems with defining model railroading while I am sitting here in Chicago losing money in Fantasy Foorball and Fantasy Golf.
Alton Junction
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm................
I probably should keep quiet.... last time this kind of subject came up I was soundly beaten about the head and body, handcuffed, tarred and feathered, and run out of town on a rail.
Lets see, If I go out and by a model railroad does THAT make me a Model railroader??? Hmmmmm???
Well, I went out and bought a truck a few years ago. It sits right out there in my driveway. So, am I a Trucker? I know some truckers who don't have a truck in their driveway......
I also own a car that I bought. I must be a Auto Mechanic? I know several Auto Mechanics who also have cars in their driveway.
There is a kid down the street who owns an electric guitar. He must be a professional Musician, right? I have a degree in music and I own a guitar, so......
I mow my lawn with a mower I bought. Am I a landscape professional???? Hmmm?
Guess it has to do with symantics. Oooooo I used a big word. I must be a poet! Yep!
73
Ray Seneca Lake, Ontario, and Western R.R. (S.L.O.&W.) in HO
We'll get there sooner or later!
howmus Lets see, If I go out and by a model railroad does THAT make me a Model railroader???
Lets see, If I go out and by a model railroad does THAT make me a Model railroader???
The question isn't whether it makes you a model railroader, but how do you feel / what do you think about contracting out all or part of a model railroad layout? And if it bothers you, are you bothered by someone who hires someone to do the track plan? Build the benchwork? Build the structures? Etc-- how much / where is the tipping point when it begins to seem different from someone who does it all?
This post is *NOT* about who is or isn't a model railroader.
jwhitten howmus: Lets see, If I go out and by a model railroad does THAT make me a Model railroader??? The question isn't whether it makes you a model railroader, but how do you feel / what do you think about contracting out all or part of a model railroad layout? And if it bothers you, are you bothered by someone who hires someone to do the track plan? Build the benchwork? Build the structures? Etc-- how much / where is the tipping point when it begins to seem different from someone who does it all? This post is *NOT* about who is or isn't a model railroader. John
howmus: Lets see, If I go out and by a model railroad does THAT make me a Model railroader???
OK..... Well it seems that a few have made it, or tied to make it into THAT! So I guess I would have to say, "How do I feel about it?" Total and complete indifference!
Actually I wouldn't buy a model layout or have it "contracted" out to someone else because THAT would take all the fun out of building a Model Railroad. But if YOU want to buy or contract out your layout....... Go ahead. Won't make me "feel" one way or another........
jwhitten Another exercise might be-- suppose you buy a book of track plans by John Armstrong. A whole shopping cart full of FSM kits. A slew of Central Valley tie strips and turnout kits and rails to go with it. Siever's benchwork to fill the whole basement. Enough Woodland Scenics supplies to scenic a small country. Photo-realistic backdrops from All Scale backdrops. BLI and Proto2K locomotives and Exactrail rolling stock. NCE or Digitrax DCC controllers--- and you take all that stuff and combine it into a layout... Is it *yours* or is it *commercial* ??? John
Another exercise might be-- suppose you buy a book of track plans by John Armstrong. A whole shopping cart full of FSM kits. A slew of Central Valley tie strips and turnout kits and rails to go with it. Siever's benchwork to fill the whole basement. Enough Woodland Scenics supplies to scenic a small country. Photo-realistic backdrops from All Scale backdrops. BLI and Proto2K locomotives and Exactrail rolling stock. NCE or Digitrax DCC controllers--- and you take all that stuff and combine it into a layout...
Is it *yours* or is it *commercial* ???
It's your layout because you built it. You didn't hire someone to build or assemble it for you.
This is what Railroad Modelers do.
Elmer.
The above is my opinion, from an active and experienced Model Railroader in N scale and HO since 1961.
(Modeling Freelance, Eastern US, HO scale, in 1962, with NCE DCC for locomotive control and a stand alone LocoNet for block detection and signals.) http://waynes-trains.com/ at home, and N scale at the Club.