"In Need of Professional Help!"
From time-to-time I have read articles in the model press, including Model Railroader magazine, or on various forums, about people who have literally "purchased" their entire railroads in one go-- by which I mean they contracted with a layout design and construction firm to do all the planning and all the work. And from the examples I've seen they generally *look* okay to me. They seem well-designed and thought-out, well made and nicely apportioned, fully-scenicked and, frankly, look like they might be a lot of fun to run and operate.
But, curiously, sometimes the reaction to such a layout is negative and, or even downright nasty. I recall one specific example in Model Railroader a few years ago about a fellow who contracted with a firm to design and deliver a layout based on a locomotive servicing facility. He didn't have much space, liked locomotives, and after consultation it was decided that a service facility would be a good fit for his wishes. I forget offhand why he didn't want to do it himself, but it doesn't really matter, whatever the reason, he just elected to "buy" his railroad rather than build it. Well, in the very next issue there were letters from people complaining about how he wasn't really a model railroader and that it was somehow "cheating" since he had it built and didn't build it himself.
I remember my own thoughts, more or less, while reading the article showcasing the layout, which was something like "Boy, this is over the top commercialism. Even for Model Railroader-- they're stooping to new lows... (mumble mumble) Cow-towing to their commercial advertisers, etc." Then when I read the feedback in the next issue, I realized it was probably a common reaction. I re-read the article several times to try to figure out what it was that bothered me about it, but I was never able to quite decide what it was. But it stands to reason that simply the knowledge that it was professionally built, as everything else about it looked normal, and in fact quite nice. It was a model railroad after all!
Interestingly though, I don't have the same reaction to layouts in museums, shopping centers, professional buildings, or anywhere else. Perhaps its the fact that they are housed in a "professional" location and its expected that they would be professional designed and constructed.
Perhaps it simply the knowledge that the layout was professionally designed in a hobby where most modelers typically pride themselves on their own accomplishments-- and expect that their modeling brethren are similarly engaged in designing and constructing their own layouts-- to whatever degree and ability they can.
But what about the layouts that were commercially-contracted out by the modeler? Apparently that is a different story, but maybe people don't really know how to approach it-- not quite sure what to say, or how to approach it. And anyway, what is there really to say when the whole thing has been designed and built by professionals who know all the secrets and all the tricks? It'd be a bit like trying to critique a Disney World exhibit! (A real Mickey Mouse operation there, if ever there was one! :-) The layout may be uniformly well-done, and yet other than "ownership", it is not really "of" the modeler in the same sense as a home-made layout is.
So that's one thing...
The other is this-- let's break it down some, just for the heck of it...
From one perspective, nearly all layouts are really "store-bought" at some level, when you consider that the construction materials are almost always purchased. Whether then combined or placed as-is on the layout being kind-of immaterial. The lumber is typically purchased, the track materials, the trains and rolling stock, the structures, the switches and wiring, the throttles or DCC control units-- whatever. Even if you scratch-build, you still probably purchased the materials rather than whittling your own window frames and casting your own door knobs-- though I'm sure there are some who do exactly that!
And I'm not trying to call one type a "Model Railroader" and another type "Not a Railroader"-- that's not where I'm going with all this.
So, My Questions For Today Are:
-- Suppose you found out that the owner of some layout you admire really, in fact, contracted with a commercial design and construction firm to create the entire layout?
-- Or maybe they just consulted with a professional design firm to develop the track plan and that's all-- the modeler did everything else? Or maybe it was the track plan and the benchwork? Or the track plan, benchwork, some scenicking and the major structures...??
-- Where is the threshold point? How much, and of what, has to be "store-bought" before the "negative connotation" emerges? I reckon that's what I'm really asking.
-- Or, maybe you're not bothered by the idea of a "store-bought" layout. Why or why not?
-- How would you feel about the modeler him or herself, if you find out that some or all of their layout has been professionally contracted out? Would that change your opinion? Do you think the modeler ought to be "required" to "fess up" and inform people of the layout's status?
As always, I'm looking for your thoughts and opinions-- and photos too if you got 'em!
John
And I'd actually like to add to this one more thought-- what would be the difference between contracting out the layout, whether all or in part, and getting a friend or a buddy to help you out with the same thing? Or maybe belonging to a club where the different members all brought with them the various skills and abilities required to do the same thing....
Why is that different? I think most people would agree that it is. Yet those same friends by night, might be out commercially contracting to design and build layouts the very next morning...
Lemme see -
Remove tape - check
Pull pin - check
Release handle - check
Throw hand grenade over the wall and duck - umm - no - wait - he seems to remain standing right next to it, waiting to see what will happen ....
Are you sure you want to start yet another round of ye olde "you are not a Real (tm) Model Railroader if you ...." food fight?
Cause it ain't exactly brain surgery to figure out that that is where this subject most likely will head eventually :-)
Smile, Stein
It's been my experience in life that 99.9% of people who make "negative" comments about another person or that person's possessions are generally "small minded" and jealous.
There are many reasons for this reaction but mostly it's just jealousy and small minds. Some people just can't appreciate anything without tearing down to their level first.
To those people I say the door works both ways, use it. I don't have enough time let to deal with these types.
I don't care if your layout was "off the shelf" or built over 50 years, I can appreciate either one equally. The simple fact is if the person likes trains we already have something in common so let's build on that.
As my late Mother used to say, "If you can't say anything nice why not just shut your big stupid mouth so the rest of us can enjoy it". And I have to agree with her 100%!!
Everybody has an "opinion", problem is almost all people don't care about their opinions or care to hear it, especially if it's "negative".
That's my opinion!!! (Ha Ha Ha!!)
Mark
P.S. You don't have to care about "my" opinion either, it's OK with me.....
Forty Niner It's been my experience in life that 99.9% of people who make "negative" comments about another person or that person's possessions are generally "small minded" and jealous. There are many reasons for this reaction but mostly it's just jealousy and small minds. Some people just can't appreciate anything without tearing down to their level first. To those people I say the door works both ways, use it. I don't have enough time let to deal with these types. I don't care if your layout was "off the shelf" or built over 50 years, I can appreciate either one equally. The simple fact is if the person likes trains we already have something in common so let's build on that. As my late Mother used to say, "If you can't say anything nice why not just shut your big stupid mouth so the rest of us can enjoy it". And I have to agree with her 100%!! Everybody has an "opinion", problem is almost all people don't care about their opinions or care to hear it, especially if it's "negative". That's my opinion!!! (Ha Ha Ha!!) Mark P.S. You don't have to care about "my" opinion either, it's OK with me.....
Actually your opinion is good and makes sense. But I'm not sure if I agree with you about the "small-minded" part, though I certainly do agree on the "we have model trains in common, let's build on that!"
I guess I'm wondering why its a hang-up in the one context and not in the others-- such as getting help from friends or club members and such.
I'm not picking on anybody's layout, nor encouraging anybody to do so-- I'm interested in *why* there's controversy at all?
steinjr Are you sure you want to start yet another round of ye olde "you are not a Real (tm) Model Railroader if you ...." food fight? Cause it ain't exactly brain surgery to figure out that that is where this subject most likely will head eventually :-) Smile, Stein
I sincerely hope it doesn't go like that-- I'm not trying to make a distinction between who is and isn't a model railroader--and in fact I explicitly said that in my original post.
But what I *am* interested in is why its even an issue?
And why the context matters?
It's an issue because some people make it one and others mindlessly follow along.
Joe
Whether or not a layout is professionally built becomes an issue because of our natural competitiveness. Which is the same reason for the endless arguments over who is or is not a "real" model railroader. Our natural competiveness gets upset when we perceive the playing field is not leveled.
As an analogy, at various points in my life I have raced sailboats. When I was learning to sail competitively in college, I would get my clock cleaned every weekend by the All-Americans and similar caliber competitors. By the time I graduated, I had improved to the point where I could hold my own, and even win occasionally against the normal amateur weekend racer.
I ended up entered in international competition against Olympic-caliber sailors, and again got my clock cleaned - despite their best and truly friendly attempts to help me improve. For a long time, I used the excuse of their being full-time sailors on their Olympic teams as my excuse for losing. Then I came to realize that I just wasn't as good as they were, and likely never would be even if I had all the "advantages" I ascribed to them.
As "professional" sailors - sailmakers and boat and gear manufacturers - came to dominate the formerly amateur racing circuits, I heard the same, "It's not fair refrain.." I used to spout. The reality is that the very best sailors are going to gravitate to jobs that allow them to spend more time sailing, rather than holding a related job creating the outstanding sailor.
So it is with professionals building model railroads. I strongly suspect that their excellent modeling railroading skills lead them to be hobby-related professionals, not the other way around. When I remember that being a professional did not make the modeler, I come to view the professional work and the professional did the work in a much more positive light.
Similarly the boat owners who brought in the professionals learned a lot and improved themselves through their association with the professionals. I guarantee that those who are fortunate enough to hire professionals (or have "professional" assistance from friends) are much better modelers for the experience.
my thoughts, your choices
Fred W
It doesn't bother me weather or not a certain layout was professionally built, or every structure was stracthbuilt. If the layout is a great layout, then the layout is a great layout. period.
We're all here for one common interest, model railroading.
However in my opinion, you get the more satisfaction of building your own model railroad. Look back and say "hey, I built this entire thing by myself".
I suspect that these professional layout building places exist because of the new generation of model railroaders want instant satisfaction. (Like the whole RTR argument thing.) I buy alot of RTRs, so I guess I somewhat fall into that catagory, but only because I'm new to the hobby and would rather spend my time on building the layout then to try to build a freight car good enough to look like or better than the RTR cars available.
Building a layout takes alot of money, and man hours. Some people just don't have enough time, and thus resort to having a professional build it.
Michael
CEO- Mile-HI-RailroadPrototype: D&RGW Moffat Line 1989
jwhitten And I'd actually like to add to this one more thought-- what would be the difference between contracting out the layout, whether all or in part, and getting a friend or a buddy to help you out with the same thing? Or maybe belonging to a club where the different members all brought with them the various skills and abilities required to do the same thing.... Why is that different? I think most people would agree that it is. Yet those same friends by night, might be out commercially contracting to design and build layouts the very next morning... John
Here's my new deck I just built. Am I a Professional deck builder or just a home owner who built a new deck, or both? You tell me.
Things to consider.
The deck is way better than the original one the professional builder built, when they built the house. Just because something is done by a professional doesn't mean it's better or worse.
When sitting on it having a with my friends, would the taste any different if the deck was built by a pro me or an amature me?
I am quite capable of painting my own house and I do a good job, but I hate painting so much I almost always hire a painter. Is my home less enjoyable because I didn't paint it myself?
The same is with our hobby. It does not matter if you do it all yourself or some or none of it. Enjoy whatever parts you like about it and get someone else to help you with the rest. Who cares.
Finally you've all seen this early photo of my layout. (someday I'll take an updated one) To those vary few that have scoffed at my acres of foam (yes I agree it is a lot of foam) without knowing the direction, reason or end result I am looking for. Why do you comment at all? I have had layouts I've built the more "traditional" way in the past and am quite capable of doing it that way again. I wanted to try something new this time. So watch the journey I am taking with this layout or don't. Constructive suggestions always welcome. Nasty comments will just make me have to roll my eyes heavenward.
I can not even draw decent stick men but I have two friends who are Professional artist. They said they would paint my backdrop for me when the time comes. They will do it for free, however I will certainly give them a gift for their time and efforts. So will my backdrop have then been done by professionals? And will it be less worthy?
Brent
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."
fwright Whether or not a layout is professionally built becomes an issue because of our natural competitiveness. Which is the same reason for the endless arguments over who is or is not a "real" model railroader. Our natural competiveness gets upset when we perceive the playing field is not leveled. As an analogy, at various points in my life I have raced sailboats. When I was learning to sail competitively in college, I would get my clock cleaned every weekend by the All-Americans and similar caliber competitors. By the time I graduated, I had improved to the point where I could hold my own, and even win occasionally against the normal amateur weekend racer. I ended up entered in international competition against Olympic-caliber sailors, and again got my clock cleaned - despite their best and truly friendly attempts to help me improve. For a long time, I used the excuse of their being full-time sailors on their Olympic teams as my excuse for losing. Then I came to realize that I just wasn't as good as they were, and likely never would be even if I had all the "advantages" I ascribed to them. As "professional" sailors - sailmakers and boat and gear manufacturers - came to dominate the formerly amateur racing circuits, I heard the same, "It's not fair refrain.." I used to spout. The reality is that the very best sailors are going to gravitate to jobs that allow them to spend more time sailing, rather than holding a related job creating the outstanding sailor. So it is with professionals building model railroads. I strongly suspect that their excellent modeling railroading skills lead them to be hobby-related professionals, not the other way around. When I remember that being a professional did not make the modeler, I come to view the professional work and the professional did the work in a much more positive light. Similarly the boat owners who brought in the professionals learned a lot and improved themselves through their association with the professionals. I guarantee that those who are fortunate enough to hire professionals (or have "professional" assistance from friends) are much better modelers for the experience. my thoughts, your choices Fred W
Fred, I think you hit very well on the points.
I would probably be somewhat upset if I found out that a layout I admired/visited/operated on was "store bought' because of the reasons Fred pointed out. On the other hand, many folks love trains but they may not love the modeling aspect; building the layout, assembling structures and cars, installing electronics and such. They just wnat to run trains. If they have the wherewithal to pay for it, why should I care. I have to operate within my budget but also, do the things that bring me enjoyment and relaxation. Completing a building, finishing a module or superdetailing some rolling stock gives me a sense of satisfaction that I find few and far between in other aspects of my life (starting and finishing a project within a time span that's not measured in weeks, months or years!).
I have operated on a layout that was completely built by the owners friends. In fact, his main interest is in having the railroad there, depicting the palce of his youth, for his friends and others to come over and operate. It's a great RR and the owner is a gracious host and a heck of a nice guy.
This is not limited to model railroading either. Take the guy who buys a stock Mustang GT and bolts on all the after market accessories to make it faster, handle better and stop quicker compared to the guy who goes on and plunks down the change for a Saleen or Rousch Mustang with all of it already put together.
Ricky
The term Model Railroader started from the word Modeler, which to me means; Modeling something or to build something in miniature. Hence, when we say Model Railroad, we mean a Railroad built in miniature.
Now when someone says they are a Model Railroader, that means to me that they have, or are in the process of, building a model of a Railroad, or some items for a Model Railroad, whether or not they have help in the constructing of it or them. On the other hand, if someone says to me, I have a Model Railroad, that means they own one, but they may not have built it.
So, in my opinion, if someone says "I am a Model Railroader" and I found out they purchased it completed, I have just lost all respect for them and the work they now claim as their own. Even if they don't claim it as their own work, they are not a Model Railroader to me.
As for the materials used, I would consider myself a modeler even if I build kits. The fact remains that "I" put it together. Most of us started out building plastic kits, then went on to wood kits. Taking it a step further, Scratch building means that you built it from ready available materials. I don't know what you would call it if you went out and cut the trees down to make your own wood to build the layout structure from.
But in the main, a person that contracts to have a Model Railroad built for them, is not a Model Railroader, in my opinion. Of course there is an exception to every rule, so my exception would be if they scratch built all of their rolling stock except the locomotives, I would consider them a Model Railroader.
Elmer.
The above is my opinion, from an active and experienced Model Railroader in N scale and HO since 1961.
(Modeling Freelance, Eastern US, HO scale, in 1962, with NCE DCC for locomotive control and a stand alone LocoNet for block detection and signals.) http://waynes-trains.com/ at home, and N scale at the Club.
Ah yes. How much RTR is acceptable before we drum you out of the hobby?
Pick your own Real Model Railroader level:
1. Make your own brake wheels and other parts including turning your wheels..
2. Gather together parts and structural shapes to fashion the model.
3. Assemble Craftsman Kits
4. Assemble Easy Plastic kits
5. RTR models assembled into a layout.
6. Assemble layout kits.
7. Direct the building of your layout by professionals.
8. Buy a layout off the shelf at a train show.
42. Forget this whole miserable ranking system and just have fun with trains.
The answer of course is 42.
Enjoy
Paul
IRONROOSTER Ah yes. How much RTR is acceptable before we drum you out of the hobby? Pick your own Real Model Railroader level:
The question is not about who is or isn't a model railroader, its how you feel / your opinion of commercially contracted layouts / consulting with layout design and construction professionals to design all or part of a layout.
Seems to me the issue is whether someone is falsely stating, or allowing people to believe, that they played a greater role in the design and building than they actually did.
A well known, and now deceased, model railroader here in Milwaukee was on so many blood thinners due to his heart condition that he was literally forbidden by his doctor from holding a knife or saw in his hands. If he cut himself, as he did from time to time with an errant screwdriver while replacing trucks on a freight car or prying open a Kadee coupler box, it was an immediate, and possibly overnight, trip to the ER. His layouts were for the most part custom designed and entirely custom built and wired. His involvement (apart from paying for it all and making clear exactly what he wanted) was in some of the super detailing such as figures, vehicles, and some scenery. He never made a false claim about his involvement and in fact had plaques placed honoring the guys who did the work. On the other hand he did the design and programming for a computerized car forwarding system that a number of local modelers use, and his layout hosted multiple operating sessions every week for years. Very likely one of the heaviest used layouts ever. The ability of the large layout to handle that sheer intensity of operation was entirely his doing. So he did play a very active and direct role in the operation of the layout he had devoted years and resources into calling into being.
He regarded himself as a model railroader. As to whether he was a modeler, he would point to the awards his structures had won at NMRA divisional meets before the implications of his illness prevented any more building.
Dave Nelson
Its the difference between being an artist and owning a painting.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
As far as the friends vs. commercial construction.
In my living room is a rocking chair. It belonged to my wife's grandmother. It fell into disrepair. My wife's uncle a very skilled woodworker build replacement pieces for the rotted portions, installed them and refinished the whole chair to the same finish and recovered the seat with leather. Then he gave it to my wife.
Now I could buy a more modern looking chair that would probably be more structurally sound and have a tighter seat.
The difference between a layout built by friends and one commercially built is the difference between my wife's rocking chair and the one I could buy in a store.
jwhitten IRONROOSTER: Ah yes. How much RTR is acceptable before we drum you out of the hobby? Pick your own Real Model Railroader level: The question is not about who is or isn't a model railroader, its how you feel / your opinion of commercially contracted layouts / consulting with layout design and construction professionals to design all or part of a layout. John
IRONROOSTER: Ah yes. How much RTR is acceptable before we drum you out of the hobby? Pick your own Real Model Railroader level:
Au contraire
From your original post:
So in my original post is a list of different places to draw the line, most of which have at different points in time been where the "negative connotation" kicks in. The "negative connotation" is always "who is not a Real Model Railroader".
I thought my position was clear - see 42 above.
To put it differently: If you think you are a model railroader, you are.
Or: This is a hobby, do the fun parts, buy as much of the rest as you can afford, do as much of the rest you can't buy as is necessary so you can do the fun parts. BTW you get to pick which is which - at least for you.
For me the "negative connotation" never emerges
Personally, I stop to enjoy all the layouts at train shows including the ones for sale. And all the ones in MR and CTT and RMC and the NMRA Bulletin (or whatever it's name is this month).
As usual just my waiting for change.
John, while this might prove to be an interesting and enlightening subject for discussion were it posed to members of one of the forums that caters more to serious hobbyist-modelers, here the opinions expressed will be almost totally predictable and wishy-washy. Let's be honest and recognize that a majority of folks here are not modelers in the traditional sense of our hobby, but rather increasingly just buyers of model railroad items and equipment. So of course you are going to get the, "Everyone's a model railroader" response, no matter what, simply because if it were any other way a lot of folks would then have to regard themselves as outsiders.
Addressing your questions from an actual modeler's viewpoint, a person who purchases a layout totally fabricated by someone else may be regarded as a miniature train operator, or layout owner, but by no stretch of the imagination any sort of model railroader. And in that situation, I could point out (and have once or twice) a big name/ famous layout "hobbyist", or two, who appear in the magazines, that indeed do not do any of their own work on their "famous" layouts, but rather farm it out to others. To me, unless such a situation is made known from the outset, I regard them basically as frauds.
However, the question of having someone else design your layout, but you do all the construction and modeling work, is quite something else. A considerable part of this hobby has always centered around using other people's ideas and I dare say the major of model railroaders have utilized entire, partial, or adapted trackplans and concepts (structure. scenery, etc. plans and ideas as well) created by someone else, on their layouts. So in that situation, the hobbyist would still definitely be classed as a "model railroader".
Likewise, the aspect of having your friends, or club-mates, assist you in layout construction is similarly reasonable and acceptable, for this sort of hands-on help from, and association with, fellow enthusiasts is a major part of pursuits of all types. As long as the layout doesn't actually become a distinct example of the work of others, it's perfectly correct for the owner to be regarded as a model railroader.
The situation really comes down to addressing whether the individual in question builds his models, buys just about everything, or even has someone else do it all for him. If the so-called hobbyist does not model, then he isn't a model railroader, no matter what the dabblers and RTRers may wish to claim. Like Dave H. indicates and I've alluded to a number of times previously, simply owning a painting does not somehow make you an artist.
CNJ831
Names and definitions aside, my opinion of some who who buys a turn-key model railroad is unimportant for several reasons:
No mater what they call themselves, they are not in the same hobby as me.
Dispite the cries of "we are all modelers" or the "go alone to get alone" crowd, I am not likely to have much in common with such a person.
And, such a person is unlikely to be very concerned with my opinion of him or his layout, just as I would have little or no interest in his opinion of my modeling efforts.
CNJ831 is right on about such layouts being presented in the press without full disclosure - it is fraud.
If it is disclosed, my admiration, or criticism, goes to the builder - about the owner, I am largely indifferent.
Sheldon
I really don't have a problem with professional built layouts as long as the owner doesn't try to pass the work off as something they have done. After all some of us are blessed with a lot of money and no time and others have all the time in the world and very little money. Such is the same for skill levels. As long as you the owner enjoy the finished product, why would it matter.
Dave
Getting help of any description in order to realize one's dreams in the hobby?
I am reminded of my Rector's story he told about the Anglican priest who was quietly asked by newcomers if parishioners ought to kneel when they pray.
His witty response was, "All may, some should, none must."
Go thou and do likewise.
-Crandell
Building a layout requires a variety of different talents and abilities. There are jobs which we master, and there are jobs which are a hassle to us. I am a complete nut when it comes to wiring - it is just not my thing to kneel below my layout, armed with a hot soldering iron, stringing wires. A very good friend of mine is a professional electrician and model railroader, so I enlist his help for this task - why not? Does that make me less of a true model railroader? I don´t think so. There is nothing to be said against enlisting professional help for those tasks you are not good at doing or are unable to do.
Do as you please!
In the not terribly distant past, a few model railroad owners could proudly show you a set of plans for their layouts - plans signed by John Armstrong. Rather like being able to show that their humble abode was designed by Frank Lloyd Wright.
For most of the years that The Dean was designing layouts for clients, I dreamed of designing and building my own house, expecting to do so with my own hands. I was also building models (a few scratchbuilt, most from kits) against the day when I would have space for the layout I always dreamed and schemed about.
So, what happened? Reality intruded on my dream world. My humble abode is one of several hundred built by the same developer at the same time, to one of perhaps eight standard floor plans. Seems that the old bugaboos of time, money and location always kept the building plans on hold.
Happily, I don't have to live in my layout, so I can take my own sweet time building the model railroad I have designed to my own specifications. Others are not as lucky. For some busy professionals, if they ever want an operating layout, it will be built by somebody else. They will be lucky if they can find a spare hour or two in a busy week to make the wheels roll.
When I visit a model railroad, whether in a person's home or in a commercial setting, I look at the physical object. It makes no difference to me whether it was designed by John Armstrong or a chimpanzee with a crayon. Likewise, I don't care who built the benchwork, laid the track or painted the backdrop. Since I've been an avid reader of the model press for a long time, I will probably be able to recognize which buildings were shake-the-box plastic and which were craftsman kits. I really don't expect the rolling stock to be scratch-built, especially if it's a large layout with a large roster. If I see some feature I like I will be profuse with praise. If I see something I really don't like, the owner and bystanders will never know.
So, how much of the layout was a product of professional intervention, and how much sprang full-blown from the owner's brow (or took shape under the owner's hands?) I neither know nor care. If it looks reasonably like a present or potential model of a railroad, and trains can stay on the track while running through it, who would I be to criticize. If the owner asks me for an opinion (and ONLY if I am asked) I might offer some hopefully helpful suggestions. If they are adopted, I'll smile - but I won't pout if they aren't.
In my layout space, I am doing everything myself - because I want to, not because I have to. As a result, some of my results are sure to be inferior to what a person with a different skill set might produce. I have no intention of letting that bother me, now or ever.
As for who is or isn't a model railroader, I've never seen a set of standards that has to be met. It's rather like who is, or isn't, a singer. Some people have magnificent voices. Some sound like a cross between a dry bearing and a bullfrog. Almost all of them can get their musical message across.
To my way of thinking, someone who builds models of railroad subjects is a railroad modeler. Someone who operates a model railroad is a model railroader. Some people are one or the other, some are both - and the vast majority are neither. The same can be said of almost any field of human endeavor.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
selector Getting help of any description in order to realize one's dreams in the hobby? I am reminded of my Rector's story he told about the Anglican priest who was quietly asked by newcomers if parishioners ought to kneel when they pray. His witty response was, "All may, some should, none must." Go thou and do likewise. -Crandell
My pastor was talking to my Dad one Sunday after services, as me and my cousin came bursting around the corner-- all of us named John-- he took a look at the three of us and said "I see we now have John the Father, John the Son, and John the Holy Terror."
dehusman Its the difference between being an artist and owning a painting.
Then by your logic, most of us "model railroaders" are not "model railroaders" since we buy pre-fabricated items, whether they're RTR, kits, track, vehicles, etc.. Even the scratch builders are not moder railroaders since they didn't cut the tree down, process it, make scale lumber, mill the chassis from a piece of metal, make a motor, make the track etc.. I'm pretty sure there are a handful of modelers that have done that but for the most part, we all buy pre-fabricated items, made by professionals mind you.
I find it ridiculous how some of you think that if anyone had their layouts professionally built is not a real "model railroader". Get real, did all of you build your own house, or your car? Did we forget that this hobby just boils down to us playing with toys? The more I just read about all of these egos that think they are modelers because they built their own layouts, super-detailed their trains, and painted their own paintings, the more I'm happy that I don't associate with any of them out here. Stop being jealous that someone may have more means to get the layout they want faster by buying it than by spending their retirement years building it and just be happy that someone shares your same enthusiasm in toys.
TONY
"If we never take the time, how can we ever have the time." - Merovingian (Matrix Reloaded)
Aside from the silliness of this topic, I don't see the connection between the author supplied 10-panel graphic and the use of a commercial design and construction firm to build a layout. Maybe if the author had made use of a commercial design and construction firm, he would have gotten the tire hanging by a rope from a tree that he wanted in the first place.
Alton Junction
richhotrain Aside from the silliness of this topic, I don't see the connection between the author supplied 10-panel graphic and the use of a commercial design and construction firm to build a layout. Maybe if the author had made use of a commercial design and construction firm, he would have gotten the tire hanging by a rope from a tree that he wanted in the first place.
Wow, some people have no humor at 7:30 in the morning! The 10-panel graphic is a favorite from my childhood. My Dad used to have it hanging in his office when I was a kid and it used to crack me up. And there is so much truth in it if you've ever had to deal with commercial developers of any sort.
As far as the topic being silly-- you're welcome to your opinion (seriously! That's the point of the Philosophy Friday posts) -- but I, personally, don't think its so silly. Though my original intent wasn't to start a "Who is" versus "Who Isn't" a model railroader debate, but rather to simply explore why some people, including myself on occasion, have issues with commercially-contracted layouts. And then to try to refine it a little to see if there are any particular aspects of the commercial / contract layout that are more, or less, palatable and if so, why.
I think there have been some pretty insightful posts on both sides of the question-- and I've also been impressed with the civility of the answers too-- despite SteinJr's initial apocalyptic prediction... I think the topic is quite relevant in a hobby that at times seems to struggle with its future, especially with respect to its past, and as an ever-increasing number of items and services are available Ready-to-Run, Off-the-Shelf.
So from one viewpoint, the question is a fundamental one-- what is the gist of the hobby? Is it running trains? Modeling trains? Talking about trains? Dreaming about trains? All of the above? Some of each? None of the above?
As you can see just from the answers received up to this point, regardless of which side of the question people come down on-- there appear to be some fairly clear lines of demarcation between what people believe the hobby to be versus what is proffered and available. However, what isn't so clear-- and one of the things I am attempting to elicit in this week's post-- is what services seem "acceptable" to purchase and at what point is a threshold reached, if indeed it ever is. Some people have reactions to commercial services and some don't, and probably most people's opinions fall somewhere in the middle.
To quote Crandell-- "All May, some should, and none must."
Good words for living, if you ask me!
John interesting topic so far..
Well here's my views and thoughts with a twist.
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Where is the threshold point? How much, and of what, has to be "store-bought" before the "negative connotation" emerges? I reckon that's what I'm really asking.
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I 'm not to sure seeing all of our models comes from the store in one form or the other.Yup,even a scratchbuilt structure,locomotive or cars has parts from a store and a custom built layout shouldn't matter unless (say) MR's newest golden boy has a custom built layout that he passes as one he built then of course we can rightfully cry FOUL!. and beyond that who are we to judge?
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Or maybe they just consulted with a professional design firm to develop the track plan and that's all-- the modeler did everything else? Or maybe it was the track plan and the benchwork? Or the track plan, benchwork, some scenicking and the major structures...??
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I see no difference then a so called "craftsman" building a FSM kit..Isn't George Sillios a professional model designer that sells the kits he designs? Of course this can apply to several manufacturers as well.So,are we the pot calling the kettle black or are we sitting a double standard against those that seek professional help in layout design or having a layout built? Did we not seek profession model builders for our track,locomotives,cars buildings etc? How about seeking layout designs by buying layout books or asking for layout design help on some forum?
Since modelers come in every stripe and skill level who are we to judge how one enjoys the hobby,be it a RTR'er,"Serious modeler"(whatever that is) craftsman,dabbler or whatever..Who are we to condemn a modeler because he has a custom layout built by Lance Mindhiem?
See I told you my thoughts would have a twist.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
I have a vision of what I hope my layout will convey if my railroad should ever be finished. To obtain this vision within my budget and what is available " ready to run" or install as purchased, would be impossible. Therefore, my current work is 80% scratch built or kit bashed. If I could find something ready to run that I could afford and that would fit the prototype and era I would buy it in an instance. Although this does not mean I would buy this vision in total if I could afford it, it does mean that to me the end ( Vision) can justify the means as long as you are enjoying what you are doing. At my age time is running out on me if I had to scratch build everything.
Peter Smith, Memphis