CTValleyRR Someone who purchases a prefab layout would be a "Runner", by CNJ's definitions above, but interestingly, those definitions leave no room for someone who puts RTR equipment and model kits on his layout. I guess those folks aren't "real" model railroaders, huh? Maybe another category, say, "Scum of the Earth" would be appropriate there.
Someone who purchases a prefab layout would be a "Runner", by CNJ's definitions above, but interestingly, those definitions leave no room for someone who puts RTR equipment and model kits on his layout. I guess those folks aren't "real" model railroaders, huh? Maybe another category, say, "Scum of the Earth" would be appropriate there.
"Folks, the term "model" in model railroader is employed with the intent to clearly indicate that the practitioner is personally responsible for having built much, if not all, of his layout and equipment."
CT, next time how about reading what's posted first, before spouting nonsense? We all have some RTR stuff on our layouts. It's when hobbyists increasingly employ not only RTR locomotives, but large selections of RTR rollingstock, plastic RTR roadbed/sectional track, RTR buildings and so on, that they progressively step over the line from being a model railroader to becoming just a variation of the toy train group's approach. Try to keep in mind that the hobby is about creativity and craftmanship, not about simply ownership.
And...the categories of hobbyists I cited earlier are not simply based on my opinion. They have appearred in the pages of MR with the editorial staff having been the source and a reflection of how hobbyists in general regarded the various approaches in the past.
CNJ831
I think a couple of posters have hit the nail on the head. A commercially designed and produced layout is only an issue if one attempts to pass the work off as one's own. This is intellectual dishonesty of the worst kind.
Connecticut Valley Railroad A Branch of the New York, New Haven, and Hartford
"If you think you can do a thing or think you can't do a thing, you're right." -- Henry Ford
IRONROOSTER Simple plastic structure kits were developed and now RTR structures are available and appear to be selling well. Benchwork components and kits are available, just screw them together. And so layout kits and layout modules are available. RTR layouts are available. What this says is that model railroading is and has always been about a transportation system in miniature. Just as railroaders don't build their locomotives, rolling stock, stations, track, etc. so now do model railroaders not have to do that either. Which is not to say you can't. There is and has always been those who enjoy the model building. And this will continue into the future. And of course many build to save money. It's just no longer necessary to be a model railroader.
Simple plastic structure kits were developed and now RTR structures are available and appear to be selling well.
Benchwork components and kits are available, just screw them together.
And so layout kits and layout modules are available.
RTR layouts are available.
What this says is that model railroading is and has always been about a transportation system in miniature. Just as railroaders don't build their locomotives, rolling stock, stations, track, etc. so now do model railroaders not have to do that either.
Which is not to say you can't. There is and has always been those who enjoy the model building. And this will continue into the future. And of course many build to save money. It's just no longer necessary to be a model railroader.
Paul, Larry, Rich, et al., our society employs nomenclature to identify and define things. It is absolutely necessary to do so if one is to understand what a person, company, or entity is involved in. Whether, or not, one personally wishes to agree with the situation does not factor into things. Simply owning a model railroad, or basic train set, does not somehow automatically make one a model railroader, any more than someone who buys a stamp at the local P.O. to send a letter across town can rightfully call himself as a philatelist. A distinct term, or name, is used to clearly identify what is being done by the individual(s) involved.
For better than half a century the term model railroad hobbyist, or model railroader, has unequivocally meant one who builds examples of a railroad in realistic miniature. The other terms that I pointed earlier are long recognized and were largely accepted definitions of some distinctly different pursuits, or hobbies, involving miniature trains in some fashion. Their practitioners are not the same as model railroaders. Even our host acknowledges this fact by separating the different types of hobbies involving miniature trains through their different publications and in the division of specific areas on this website.
Folks, the term "model" in model railroader is employed with the intent to clearly indicate that the practitioner is personally responsible for having built much, if not all, of his layout and equipment. Disregard that fact and the use of the term "model railroader" becomes a sham. If one wishes to employ a term, such as "miniature train enthusiast", as an umbrella term to encompass the many sorts of interest in scale and toy trains, that's fine, but "model railroader" should not mistakenly be used in place of it.
One of the interesting things about the hobby is how historically the vast majority of model railroaders have always preferred RTR. The history of the hobby is a history of developing RTR.
When reasonable quality track became available most stopped hand laying.
Athearn and Roundhouse (and others) developed simple kits and became the large producers. Later they went RTR and are still large.
Screwdriver locomotive kits largely replaced craftsman/scratchbuilt and in turn have been replaced by RTR.
Enjoy
Paul
selector We can have a model train set, or a model railroad, but we aren't modelling...we are playing with them. Modelling, per se, is the act of rendering an item in scale. Few of us really go to those lengths these days. -Crandell
We can have a model train set, or a model railroad, but we aren't modelling...we are playing with them. Modelling, per se, is the act of rendering an item in scale. Few of us really go to those lengths these days.
-Crandell
Crandell,
Shame on you. We are all model railroaders, from the guy who lays track on an old door and runs an engine in a loop to the guy who pays a small fortune to have his layout professionally built to all the rest of us who fall somewhere in between who build our own layouts, large and small, and enjoy the hobby.
As for the author of this thread, I don't know what he wants. Back in May, he wrote about a layout that he hated. It was so egregious in his view that it was a caricature of what a train layout should be. He didn't like the layout, he didn't like the landscaping, he didn't like the structures, he didn't like the little people, he didn't like the weathering. Gotta feel sorry for the "model railroader" who built it. Now, he wants to know where is the threshold point on commercially designed layouts or "store-bought" items before the "negative connotation" emerges.
All of this negativity does not promote the hobby in my view. C'mon fellas, we are all model railroaders. Yes we are!
Rich
Alton Junction
This set of topics has come up on numerous conversations in which I have participated. Some were about show cars and whether it is appropriate for factory built rods to compete for the same prizes as those built in garages; others were conversations with my father in which he expressed his displeasure at all the ready to fly R/C airplanes that were showing up at the flying field. I've read articles about professionally built model railroads and come to this conclusion:
No matter who builds it, I'll consider the product on its own merits. The factory built rods give us garage guys something to strive for. RTF airplanes and RTR model railroads are made because there is a market for them. None of this commercialism has to alter my pleasure. It is my choice if I allow it to.
My regard for the owner of the purchased works is that they likely have more money than time, skill, and/or talent. I appreciate the analogy to a painting owner as compared to an artist. My own values are that I much prefer a creative process as compared to simply owning something. In fact, after spending years building my street rod, I became bored with it and sold it. One of the great facets of model railroading is that a layout is never really finished, at least for me that is the case. I don't want to own a model railroad; I want to build one. In this way, I feel that the folks who simply buy a layout and I are very different.
There is nothing wrong with the layout buyers. They do nothing to interfere with me, and often their layouts are very well made. I doubt that we'd have much to talk about, but there are plenty of build-your-own folks out there - I don't lack for conversation partners.
I agree that we all should be truthful about our accomplishments - what we build and what we buy. I've yet to find a dishonest owner of a factory built 'rod, RTF or ARF airplane, or professionally built model railroad, so I don't see it as an issue. If there is competition, I feel that it is fine to include professionally made pieces as well as non-professionally made pieces. After all, the awards are for the best model, not for the best model that was built by an amateur. I also feel that it is fine to include professionally made work in magazines - after all, magazine publishers are trying to present interesting material so that we'll buy their publication; if it is interesting, engaging, unusual, or what have you, it is their prerogative to publish it.
One final comment - my experience is that professional builders often make compromises that amateurs don't. After all, if you are making a iving at something, you have to make productivity a priority. We amateurs are not "on the clock" so we have no incentive to cut any corners.
Phil, I'm not a rocket scientist; they are my students.
I hesitated to answer, but this is a day and a half late. Enough hesitation.
I would prefer a house designed by an architect and built by a builder. But I would not allow an interior decorate to set foot inside. There are too many things I want to do. Hang train pictures.
I am glad my dad built layouts for me when I was little, and for my brother (and for himself.) By the time I was 11, I wanted to start designing at least the scenery and buildings. Measuring the doors and windows of real buildings and figuring ¼ inch = 1 model foot. Why did my houses look big compared to my Lionel trains?
I have built layouts for people. Mostly kids. Once for an elderly lady who never had trains because girls don’t get trains.
I can’t imagine allowing anyone else to design or build my layout. Maybe if I had $$$, it might make sense to have my track and wiring done by someone who did better than me.
But there are too many things I want to do on a layout-- my own things.
I-- wouldn’t say I dislike- I am unexcited by a generic layout. If someone hired a professional team to build a layout, had no idea what they wanted except a train layout, didn’t want to bother to talk about it or think about, I would probably be unexcited about that layout. I might just say “that’s nice” like one does when a generic poet poetizes generically about flowers and birdies and how nice spring is.
Sometimes I chose things to do just because they are different and non-generic.
So many layouts have a tunnel because a railroad has to have a tunnel. And it looks it. Modeling the Texas coastal plain gives me plenty excuse to avoid tunnels.
I am glad manufacturers build my locos for me. I often want to disassemble them and paint them for my prototype.
So many things I want to do. Especially design and scenery and structures to do my own thing. My dismantled layout included 11 structure kits built more or less as designed but chosen to fit my prototype setting, 3 fairly kitbashed structures, 5 radically kitbashed structures (unrecognizable), and 13 scratchbuilds. My own thing.
I have enjoyed building a few layouts for other people. The elderly lady who always wanted a train got only a small layout that
o more or less represented the area of her hometown
o as it looked when she was a little girl
o at Christmastime.
Not generic.
Selling it or taking it to a show or exhibition and saying you made it, when you didn't ,is where I would draw the line !
Once Upon a time.........
My photobucket:
http://s6.photobucket.com/albums/y250/JohnReid/
I am a man of few words but lots of pics
I quit drinking beer because the download was taking longer than the upload !
Very nice to have the past post by the professional installer/builder...thanks for that. I take it that you look at yourself largely as a 'facilitator' to the person who would like to have a working layout that meets his standards, and not always just your own. Sure, at some point your values and experience might force you to decline a job, but that would be extremely rare. Usually there is a negotiated settlement, an agreement first in principle with ideas shared, and then you make a proposal and there is finally a shaking of hands or a contract.
But you aid, or facilitate, the realization of what the person needs and can't or simply won't do for himself. And that is really what all suppliers of materials and finished products, from RTR locos to kits of any description, do for all of us...they expect payment for providing us with aids to the realization of our dreams.
I tend to agree with John when he describes true modellers as those who do it pretty much all for themselves. I would think that such a person could also have some RTR items, though, but he claims the title by having accomplished the construction of all the items of a kind at one time or another. Eventually, though, time, changing circumstances, whatever....as Chuck has suggested, impose a changing reality that requires all of us to decide what we can and will do, or what we can't practically do.
We wouldn't say that kids who set up Mattel race car circuits and run their little motorized cars at breakneck speeds around them and up loops and such are modellers, because those toys really are a representation of a kind, just as our RTR trains are, but we don't say they aren't toy race care drivers....that is precisely what they are doing!
I sure like the fact that there are people like John who can pass on those skills, though, people who know how and have done it.
John: I am a professional Model Railroad Builder. Over the years I have built over two dozen layouts. These might include only bench work, just wiring, finishing a layout started or building a complete layout. I find in most cases the customer was stalled, did not have a specific skill, the facilities or tools, or just did not want his layout to take years to build. All my customers went on to do something to enhance their layout to suit some specific interest. For example one man did not care for the trees installed, though they were fine. He just felt he had to go beyond my work. He even had me come back and do other things on the layout a number of times. Another customer reworked the staging yard to better suit his needs. I did not have any objections to these changes. To me that is an essence of model railroading. I have done the same on my own layout. To me I am an encouragement to the hobby as that person probably would not proceed in the hobby without mine or someone else's help. With the customer's permission I have even left out specific things on the layout so that the customer could personalize his layout, for example people and vehicles.To sum up I have no objection to hired or free layout help as this increases the participation and gains new friends. However, I do like to see credit given.
The Ferroequinologist layoutconcepts@yahoo.com eBay store: Backshop Train & China Store Facebook: Model Trains, Train Sets, Buildings & Layout Concepts
CNJ:All these separate groups are with us today, but it has only been over the past dozen years, or so, that these distinctly different groups somehow melded into being considered all "model railroaders" by the current generation of hobbyists.
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John,Who are we to judge and classify modelers? Today's RTR models are far from the train set RTR that was once common to RTR'ers.Today's RTR models has road specific details etc..Just because one builds a craftsman kit doesn't mean he's a craftsman no more then weathering a car makes anybody a weathering "expert" since there are specialized weathering material available as well as tutorial videos on YouTube..
Those old bias classes of modelers no longer apply since a newbie can turn out a very nice layout by following written instructions that comes on the package or by watching tutorial videos on you tube and those old worn out classes of modelers set forth by those who thought themselves superior years ago should be forgotten .
The day of the true craftsman is over it died years ago along with my Dad's generation of modelers.
After all regardless we are all Model Railroaders in the end..Its amounts to how we choose to arrive there in the pursuit of our hobby enjoyment base on our personal choices....
After all our trains runs by electricity on 2 or 3 rails regardless of the way we chose to model..
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
jwhitten (big snip) So from one viewpoint, the question is a fundamental one-- what is the gist of the hobby? Is it running trains? Modeling trains? Talking about trains? Dreaming about trains? All of the above? Some of each? None of the above? John
(big snip) So from one viewpoint, the question is a fundamental one-- what is the gist of the hobby? Is it running trains? Modeling trains? Talking about trains? Dreaming about trains? All of the above? Some of each? None of the above?
(big snip)
So from one viewpoint, the question is a fundamental one-- what is the gist of the hobby? Is it running trains? Modeling trains? Talking about trains? Dreaming about trains? All of the above? Some of each? None of the above?
John
Indeed, John, that IS the fundamental question and to answer it in proper context one must be familiar with what the hobby was about in its first 60 years and how some might say it has evolved over the last decade.
If one consults the hobby press over those first three score years, there can be absolutely no question that ours was basically a craftsman's hobby throughout that entire time. It centered on the hobbyist building a realistic (as much as his talents and available materials would allow) layout, together with the majority of its equipment and accessories, not because they couldn't be bought but rather because this was the craftsman approach to the hobby and what made it worthwhile pursuing.
There have always been people on the fringes who bought all RTR and had layouts built for them, but they were rarely taken very seriously by the hobby press, which always, at least up until the past decade and beyond the ads, centered around do-it-yourself in just about every aspect of model railroading.
Although it probably leads away from the original idea of your question, the following might be useful in enlightening readers here. Traditionally, people's interests in model trains, as an adult hobby, were broken down more-or-less into the following categories (you'll find them and their ilk from time to time listed and talked about in MR editorials of the past):
Model Railroaders - Those talented and industrious individuals who could build virtually whatever they needed to construct a miniature, artistically executed and believable representation of the real world, complete with operating equipment, structures and scenery of their own making (and for the naive here, that did not mean cutting down their own trees for scale lumber, nor smelting metals). They did the "complete package" when building a layout for themselves.
Runners - Those whose primary interest in the hobby was simply running trains, often on layouts largely vacant of scenery. The latter situation wasn't simply a "stage" on the hobbyist's path to building a complete layout; it was more often than not the end product!
Model Makers - These individuals' interest was basically confined to the construction of models. They usually lacked any layout beyond perhaps a test track, or photo diorama, but the stuff they built rivaled (or even surpassed!) the best professional items money could buy. They are still with us today, often as those folks who paint the highly realistic and weathered individual cars, almost always seen on just a small diorama, or even a plain board. Of course, there are also the strictly model makers today, too.
Armchair Hobbyists - The guys whose association with the hobby is limited to reading the magazines, plus planning and dreaming about the layouts they'll never build. They can often know a great deal about what has been published in the magazines, both scale and prototype, but are unwilling or unable to apply that knowledge to actually modeling anything themselves.
Collectors - Depending on their exact outlook, these are the guys who endlessly purchase locomotives, rolling stock and structure kits (like FSM) "for my future layout." They end up with closets filled with models still in the boxes...to be sold off on eBay after they die. Another faction simply collects, without any intention to ever use the stuff.
The Toy Train People - Regarded as those who employed RTR Lionel/Flyer/Marx, regardless of it being O, or HO, along with Plasticville-like scenery on their layouts, plus the Hi-Railers. These folks were not taken seriously by the more accomplished hobbyists, or by the scale hobby press, and the magazines eventually ousted them from being seriously regarded as part of the hobby way back in the 1950's. The "Runners" sometimes got lumped into this group as well.
All these separate groups are with us today, but it has only been over the past dozen years, or so, that these distinctly different groups somehow melded into being considered all "model railroaders" by the current generation of hobbyists. Surely this has a great deal to do with the influx of new middle-aged hobbyists we saw in the 90's and more recently, the folks who were more familiar with the Lionel approach to the hobby, rather than that of the craftsman.
jasperofzeal dehusman: Its the difference between being an artist and owning a painting. Then by your logic, most of us "model railroaders" are not "model railroaders" since we buy pre-fabricated items, whether they're RTR, kits, track, vehicles, etc..
dehusman: Its the difference between being an artist and owning a painting.
Its the difference between being an artist and owning a painting.
Then by your logic, most of us "model railroaders" are not "model railroaders" since we buy pre-fabricated items, whether they're RTR, kits, track, vehicles, etc..
No that's not my logic at all, you have just taken the point reducto ad absurdum.
The point is not the materials. An artist buys brushes, paint and canvas. The point is CREATIVITY. The point is actually being able to DO it, rather than just acquiring it. Its a matter of SKILL. It is not a black and white thing, an either-or thing, its a continuum. The more components that are purchased RTR the more towards the "collector" side a person is. The more components that the person builds, modifies, customizes, the more towards the "artist" side the person is. Very few people are at either extreme.
I find it ridiculous how some of you think that if anyone had their layouts professionally built is not a real "model railroader". Get real, did all of you build your own house, or your car?
Nope. But then again I'm not claiming to be an architect, a framing carpenter, an electrician, a plumber or an auto worker. For me to buy a house or car and claim to be any of those would be wrong. Because you are framing the arguement in pure black and white terms (which I am not) you are missing the point.
If you go to somebody's house and they offer you a slice of pie that they baked themselves you will have a different feeling towards them (and the pie) than if they offer you a slice of store bought pie. If you tell me that the person served you homemade pie I will feel differently about them than if you just say they served you pie. The difference in the significance between store bought pie and homemade pie is the difference between buying RTR and making it. Both are nice, but one has a different impact than the other. One has a higher personal investment of time and effort than the other. While you may not value personal time and investment, most people do.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
I have a vision of what I hope my layout will convey if my railroad should ever be finished. To obtain this vision within my budget and what is available " ready to run" or install as purchased, would be impossible. Therefore, my current work is 80% scratch built or kit bashed. If I could find something ready to run that I could afford and that would fit the prototype and era I would buy it in an instance. Although this does not mean I would buy this vision in total if I could afford it, it does mean that to me the end ( Vision) can justify the means as long as you are enjoying what you are doing. At my age time is running out on me if I had to scratch build everything.
Peter Smith, Memphis
John interesting topic so far..
Well here's my views and thoughts with a twist.
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Where is the threshold point? How much, and of what, has to be "store-bought" before the "negative connotation" emerges? I reckon that's what I'm really asking.
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I 'm not to sure seeing all of our models comes from the store in one form or the other.Yup,even a scratchbuilt structure,locomotive or cars has parts from a store and a custom built layout shouldn't matter unless (say) MR's newest golden boy has a custom built layout that he passes as one he built then of course we can rightfully cry FOUL!. and beyond that who are we to judge?
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Or maybe they just consulted with a professional design firm to develop the track plan and that's all-- the modeler did everything else? Or maybe it was the track plan and the benchwork? Or the track plan, benchwork, some scenicking and the major structures...??
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I see no difference then a so called "craftsman" building a FSM kit..Isn't George Sillios a professional model designer that sells the kits he designs? Of course this can apply to several manufacturers as well.So,are we the pot calling the kettle black or are we sitting a double standard against those that seek professional help in layout design or having a layout built? Did we not seek profession model builders for our track,locomotives,cars buildings etc? How about seeking layout designs by buying layout books or asking for layout design help on some forum?
Since modelers come in every stripe and skill level who are we to judge how one enjoys the hobby,be it a RTR'er,"Serious modeler"(whatever that is) craftsman,dabbler or whatever..Who are we to condemn a modeler because he has a custom layout built by Lance Mindhiem?
See I told you my thoughts would have a twist.
richhotrain Aside from the silliness of this topic, I don't see the connection between the author supplied 10-panel graphic and the use of a commercial design and construction firm to build a layout. Maybe if the author had made use of a commercial design and construction firm, he would have gotten the tire hanging by a rope from a tree that he wanted in the first place.
Aside from the silliness of this topic, I don't see the connection between the author supplied 10-panel graphic and the use of a commercial design and construction firm to build a layout. Maybe if the author had made use of a commercial design and construction firm, he would have gotten the tire hanging by a rope from a tree that he wanted in the first place.
Wow, some people have no humor at 7:30 in the morning! The 10-panel graphic is a favorite from my childhood. My Dad used to have it hanging in his office when I was a kid and it used to crack me up. And there is so much truth in it if you've ever had to deal with commercial developers of any sort.
As far as the topic being silly-- you're welcome to your opinion (seriously! That's the point of the Philosophy Friday posts) -- but I, personally, don't think its so silly. Though my original intent wasn't to start a "Who is" versus "Who Isn't" a model railroader debate, but rather to simply explore why some people, including myself on occasion, have issues with commercially-contracted layouts. And then to try to refine it a little to see if there are any particular aspects of the commercial / contract layout that are more, or less, palatable and if so, why.
I think there have been some pretty insightful posts on both sides of the question-- and I've also been impressed with the civility of the answers too-- despite SteinJr's initial apocalyptic prediction... I think the topic is quite relevant in a hobby that at times seems to struggle with its future, especially with respect to its past, and as an ever-increasing number of items and services are available Ready-to-Run, Off-the-Shelf.
As you can see just from the answers received up to this point, regardless of which side of the question people come down on-- there appear to be some fairly clear lines of demarcation between what people believe the hobby to be versus what is proffered and available. However, what isn't so clear-- and one of the things I am attempting to elicit in this week's post-- is what services seem "acceptable" to purchase and at what point is a threshold reached, if indeed it ever is. Some people have reactions to commercial services and some don't, and probably most people's opinions fall somewhere in the middle.
To quote Crandell-- "All May, some should, and none must."
Good words for living, if you ask me!
dehusman Its the difference between being an artist and owning a painting.
Then by your logic, most of us "model railroaders" are not "model railroaders" since we buy pre-fabricated items, whether they're RTR, kits, track, vehicles, etc.. Even the scratch builders are not moder railroaders since they didn't cut the tree down, process it, make scale lumber, mill the chassis from a piece of metal, make a motor, make the track etc.. I'm pretty sure there are a handful of modelers that have done that but for the most part, we all buy pre-fabricated items, made by professionals mind you.
I find it ridiculous how some of you think that if anyone had their layouts professionally built is not a real "model railroader". Get real, did all of you build your own house, or your car? Did we forget that this hobby just boils down to us playing with toys? The more I just read about all of these egos that think they are modelers because they built their own layouts, super-detailed their trains, and painted their own paintings, the more I'm happy that I don't associate with any of them out here. Stop being jealous that someone may have more means to get the layout they want faster by buying it than by spending their retirement years building it and just be happy that someone shares your same enthusiasm in toys.
TONY
"If we never take the time, how can we ever have the time." - Merovingian (Matrix Reloaded)
selector Getting help of any description in order to realize one's dreams in the hobby? I am reminded of my Rector's story he told about the Anglican priest who was quietly asked by newcomers if parishioners ought to kneel when they pray. His witty response was, "All may, some should, none must." Go thou and do likewise. -Crandell
Getting help of any description in order to realize one's dreams in the hobby?
I am reminded of my Rector's story he told about the Anglican priest who was quietly asked by newcomers if parishioners ought to kneel when they pray.
His witty response was, "All may, some should, none must."
Go thou and do likewise.
My pastor was talking to my Dad one Sunday after services, as me and my cousin came bursting around the corner-- all of us named John-- he took a look at the three of us and said "I see we now have John the Father, John the Son, and John the Holy Terror."
In the not terribly distant past, a few model railroad owners could proudly show you a set of plans for their layouts - plans signed by John Armstrong. Rather like being able to show that their humble abode was designed by Frank Lloyd Wright.
For most of the years that The Dean was designing layouts for clients, I dreamed of designing and building my own house, expecting to do so with my own hands. I was also building models (a few scratchbuilt, most from kits) against the day when I would have space for the layout I always dreamed and schemed about.
So, what happened? Reality intruded on my dream world. My humble abode is one of several hundred built by the same developer at the same time, to one of perhaps eight standard floor plans. Seems that the old bugaboos of time, money and location always kept the building plans on hold.
Happily, I don't have to live in my layout, so I can take my own sweet time building the model railroad I have designed to my own specifications. Others are not as lucky. For some busy professionals, if they ever want an operating layout, it will be built by somebody else. They will be lucky if they can find a spare hour or two in a busy week to make the wheels roll.
When I visit a model railroad, whether in a person's home or in a commercial setting, I look at the physical object. It makes no difference to me whether it was designed by John Armstrong or a chimpanzee with a crayon. Likewise, I don't care who built the benchwork, laid the track or painted the backdrop. Since I've been an avid reader of the model press for a long time, I will probably be able to recognize which buildings were shake-the-box plastic and which were craftsman kits. I really don't expect the rolling stock to be scratch-built, especially if it's a large layout with a large roster. If I see some feature I like I will be profuse with praise. If I see something I really don't like, the owner and bystanders will never know.
So, how much of the layout was a product of professional intervention, and how much sprang full-blown from the owner's brow (or took shape under the owner's hands?) I neither know nor care. If it looks reasonably like a present or potential model of a railroad, and trains can stay on the track while running through it, who would I be to criticize. If the owner asks me for an opinion (and ONLY if I am asked) I might offer some hopefully helpful suggestions. If they are adopted, I'll smile - but I won't pout if they aren't.
In my layout space, I am doing everything myself - because I want to, not because I have to. As a result, some of my results are sure to be inferior to what a person with a different skill set might produce. I have no intention of letting that bother me, now or ever.
As for who is or isn't a model railroader, I've never seen a set of standards that has to be met. It's rather like who is, or isn't, a singer. Some people have magnificent voices. Some sound like a cross between a dry bearing and a bullfrog. Almost all of them can get their musical message across.
To my way of thinking, someone who builds models of railroad subjects is a railroad modeler. Someone who operates a model railroad is a model railroader. Some people are one or the other, some are both - and the vast majority are neither. The same can be said of almost any field of human endeavor.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
Building a layout requires a variety of different talents and abilities. There are jobs which we master, and there are jobs which are a hassle to us. I am a complete nut when it comes to wiring - it is just not my thing to kneel below my layout, armed with a hot soldering iron, stringing wires. A very good friend of mine is a professional electrician and model railroader, so I enlist his help for this task - why not? Does that make me less of a true model railroader? I don´t think so. There is nothing to be said against enlisting professional help for those tasks you are not good at doing or are unable to do.
Do as you please!
I really don't have a problem with professional built layouts as long as the owner doesn't try to pass the work off as something they have done. After all some of us are blessed with a lot of money and no time and others have all the time in the world and very little money. Such is the same for skill levels. As long as you the owner enjoy the finished product, why would it matter.
Dave
Names and definitions aside, my opinion of some who who buys a turn-key model railroad is unimportant for several reasons:
No mater what they call themselves, they are not in the same hobby as me.
Dispite the cries of "we are all modelers" or the "go alone to get alone" crowd, I am not likely to have much in common with such a person.
And, such a person is unlikely to be very concerned with my opinion of him or his layout, just as I would have little or no interest in his opinion of my modeling efforts.
CNJ831 is right on about such layouts being presented in the press without full disclosure - it is fraud.
If it is disclosed, my admiration, or criticism, goes to the builder - about the owner, I am largely indifferent.
Sheldon
John, while this might prove to be an interesting and enlightening subject for discussion were it posed to members of one of the forums that caters more to serious hobbyist-modelers, here the opinions expressed will be almost totally predictable and wishy-washy. Let's be honest and recognize that a majority of folks here are not modelers in the traditional sense of our hobby, but rather increasingly just buyers of model railroad items and equipment. So of course you are going to get the, "Everyone's a model railroader" response, no matter what, simply because if it were any other way a lot of folks would then have to regard themselves as outsiders.
Addressing your questions from an actual modeler's viewpoint, a person who purchases a layout totally fabricated by someone else may be regarded as a miniature train operator, or layout owner, but by no stretch of the imagination any sort of model railroader. And in that situation, I could point out (and have once or twice) a big name/ famous layout "hobbyist", or two, who appear in the magazines, that indeed do not do any of their own work on their "famous" layouts, but rather farm it out to others. To me, unless such a situation is made known from the outset, I regard them basically as frauds.
However, the question of having someone else design your layout, but you do all the construction and modeling work, is quite something else. A considerable part of this hobby has always centered around using other people's ideas and I dare say the major of model railroaders have utilized entire, partial, or adapted trackplans and concepts (structure. scenery, etc. plans and ideas as well) created by someone else, on their layouts. So in that situation, the hobbyist would still definitely be classed as a "model railroader".
Likewise, the aspect of having your friends, or club-mates, assist you in layout construction is similarly reasonable and acceptable, for this sort of hands-on help from, and association with, fellow enthusiasts is a major part of pursuits of all types. As long as the layout doesn't actually become a distinct example of the work of others, it's perfectly correct for the owner to be regarded as a model railroader.
The situation really comes down to addressing whether the individual in question builds his models, buys just about everything, or even has someone else do it all for him. If the so-called hobbyist does not model, then he isn't a model railroader, no matter what the dabblers and RTRers may wish to claim. Like Dave H. indicates and I've alluded to a number of times previously, simply owning a painting does not somehow make you an artist.
jwhitten IRONROOSTER: Ah yes. How much RTR is acceptable before we drum you out of the hobby? Pick your own Real Model Railroader level: The question is not about who is or isn't a model railroader, its how you feel / your opinion of commercially contracted layouts / consulting with layout design and construction professionals to design all or part of a layout. John
IRONROOSTER: Ah yes. How much RTR is acceptable before we drum you out of the hobby? Pick your own Real Model Railroader level:
Ah yes. How much RTR is acceptable before we drum you out of the hobby?
Pick your own Real Model Railroader level:
The question is not about who is or isn't a model railroader, its how you feel / your opinion of commercially contracted layouts / consulting with layout design and construction professionals to design all or part of a layout.
Au contraire
From your original post:
-- Where is the threshold point? How much, and of what, has to be "store-bought" before the "negative connotation" emerges? I reckon that's what I'm really asking.
So in my original post is a list of different places to draw the line, most of which have at different points in time been where the "negative connotation" kicks in. The "negative connotation" is always "who is not a Real Model Railroader".
I thought my position was clear - see 42 above.
To put it differently: If you think you are a model railroader, you are.
Or: This is a hobby, do the fun parts, buy as much of the rest as you can afford, do as much of the rest you can't buy as is necessary so you can do the fun parts. BTW you get to pick which is which - at least for you.
For me the "negative connotation" never emerges
Personally, I stop to enjoy all the layouts at train shows including the ones for sale. And all the ones in MR and CTT and RMC and the NMRA Bulletin (or whatever it's name is this month).
As usual just my waiting for change.
As far as the friends vs. commercial construction.
In my living room is a rocking chair. It belonged to my wife's grandmother. It fell into disrepair. My wife's uncle a very skilled woodworker build replacement pieces for the rotted portions, installed them and refinished the whole chair to the same finish and recovered the seat with leather. Then he gave it to my wife.
Now I could buy a more modern looking chair that would probably be more structurally sound and have a tighter seat.
The difference between a layout built by friends and one commercially built is the difference between my wife's rocking chair and the one I could buy in a store.
Seems to me the issue is whether someone is falsely stating, or allowing people to believe, that they played a greater role in the design and building than they actually did.
A well known, and now deceased, model railroader here in Milwaukee was on so many blood thinners due to his heart condition that he was literally forbidden by his doctor from holding a knife or saw in his hands. If he cut himself, as he did from time to time with an errant screwdriver while replacing trucks on a freight car or prying open a Kadee coupler box, it was an immediate, and possibly overnight, trip to the ER. His layouts were for the most part custom designed and entirely custom built and wired. His involvement (apart from paying for it all and making clear exactly what he wanted) was in some of the super detailing such as figures, vehicles, and some scenery. He never made a false claim about his involvement and in fact had plaques placed honoring the guys who did the work. On the other hand he did the design and programming for a computerized car forwarding system that a number of local modelers use, and his layout hosted multiple operating sessions every week for years. Very likely one of the heaviest used layouts ever. The ability of the large layout to handle that sheer intensity of operation was entirely his doing. So he did play a very active and direct role in the operation of the layout he had devoted years and resources into calling into being.
He regarded himself as a model railroader. As to whether he was a modeler, he would point to the awards his structures had won at NMRA divisional meets before the implications of his illness prevented any more building.
Dave Nelson
IRONROOSTER Ah yes. How much RTR is acceptable before we drum you out of the hobby? Pick your own Real Model Railroader level: