Ah yes. How much RTR is acceptable before we drum you out of the hobby?
Pick your own Real Model Railroader level:
1. Make your own brake wheels and other parts including turning your wheels..
2. Gather together parts and structural shapes to fashion the model.
3. Assemble Craftsman Kits
4. Assemble Easy Plastic kits
5. RTR models assembled into a layout.
6. Assemble layout kits.
7. Direct the building of your layout by professionals.
8. Buy a layout off the shelf at a train show.
42. Forget this whole miserable ranking system and just have fun with trains.
The answer of course is 42.
Enjoy
Paul
The term Model Railroader started from the word Modeler, which to me means; Modeling something or to build something in miniature. Hence, when we say Model Railroad, we mean a Railroad built in miniature.
Now when someone says they are a Model Railroader, that means to me that they have, or are in the process of, building a model of a Railroad, or some items for a Model Railroad, whether or not they have help in the constructing of it or them. On the other hand, if someone says to me, I have a Model Railroad, that means they own one, but they may not have built it.
So, in my opinion, if someone says "I am a Model Railroader" and I found out they purchased it completed, I have just lost all respect for them and the work they now claim as their own. Even if they don't claim it as their own work, they are not a Model Railroader to me.
As for the materials used, I would consider myself a modeler even if I build kits. The fact remains that "I" put it together. Most of us started out building plastic kits, then went on to wood kits. Taking it a step further, Scratch building means that you built it from ready available materials. I don't know what you would call it if you went out and cut the trees down to make your own wood to build the layout structure from.
But in the main, a person that contracts to have a Model Railroad built for them, is not a Model Railroader, in my opinion. Of course there is an exception to every rule, so my exception would be if they scratch built all of their rolling stock except the locomotives, I would consider them a Model Railroader.
Elmer.
The above is my opinion, from an active and experienced Model Railroader in N scale and HO since 1961.
(Modeling Freelance, Eastern US, HO scale, in 1962, with NCE DCC for locomotive control and a stand alone LocoNet for block detection and signals.) http://waynes-trains.com/ at home, and N scale at the Club.
fwright Whether or not a layout is professionally built becomes an issue because of our natural competitiveness. Which is the same reason for the endless arguments over who is or is not a "real" model railroader. Our natural competiveness gets upset when we perceive the playing field is not leveled. As an analogy, at various points in my life I have raced sailboats. When I was learning to sail competitively in college, I would get my clock cleaned every weekend by the All-Americans and similar caliber competitors. By the time I graduated, I had improved to the point where I could hold my own, and even win occasionally against the normal amateur weekend racer. I ended up entered in international competition against Olympic-caliber sailors, and again got my clock cleaned - despite their best and truly friendly attempts to help me improve. For a long time, I used the excuse of their being full-time sailors on their Olympic teams as my excuse for losing. Then I came to realize that I just wasn't as good as they were, and likely never would be even if I had all the "advantages" I ascribed to them. As "professional" sailors - sailmakers and boat and gear manufacturers - came to dominate the formerly amateur racing circuits, I heard the same, "It's not fair refrain.." I used to spout. The reality is that the very best sailors are going to gravitate to jobs that allow them to spend more time sailing, rather than holding a related job creating the outstanding sailor. So it is with professionals building model railroads. I strongly suspect that their excellent modeling railroading skills lead them to be hobby-related professionals, not the other way around. When I remember that being a professional did not make the modeler, I come to view the professional work and the professional did the work in a much more positive light. Similarly the boat owners who brought in the professionals learned a lot and improved themselves through their association with the professionals. I guarantee that those who are fortunate enough to hire professionals (or have "professional" assistance from friends) are much better modelers for the experience. my thoughts, your choices Fred W
Whether or not a layout is professionally built becomes an issue because of our natural competitiveness. Which is the same reason for the endless arguments over who is or is not a "real" model railroader. Our natural competiveness gets upset when we perceive the playing field is not leveled.
As an analogy, at various points in my life I have raced sailboats. When I was learning to sail competitively in college, I would get my clock cleaned every weekend by the All-Americans and similar caliber competitors. By the time I graduated, I had improved to the point where I could hold my own, and even win occasionally against the normal amateur weekend racer.
I ended up entered in international competition against Olympic-caliber sailors, and again got my clock cleaned - despite their best and truly friendly attempts to help me improve. For a long time, I used the excuse of their being full-time sailors on their Olympic teams as my excuse for losing. Then I came to realize that I just wasn't as good as they were, and likely never would be even if I had all the "advantages" I ascribed to them.
As "professional" sailors - sailmakers and boat and gear manufacturers - came to dominate the formerly amateur racing circuits, I heard the same, "It's not fair refrain.." I used to spout. The reality is that the very best sailors are going to gravitate to jobs that allow them to spend more time sailing, rather than holding a related job creating the outstanding sailor.
So it is with professionals building model railroads. I strongly suspect that their excellent modeling railroading skills lead them to be hobby-related professionals, not the other way around. When I remember that being a professional did not make the modeler, I come to view the professional work and the professional did the work in a much more positive light.
Similarly the boat owners who brought in the professionals learned a lot and improved themselves through their association with the professionals. I guarantee that those who are fortunate enough to hire professionals (or have "professional" assistance from friends) are much better modelers for the experience.
my thoughts, your choices
Fred W
Fred, I think you hit very well on the points.
I would probably be somewhat upset if I found out that a layout I admired/visited/operated on was "store bought' because of the reasons Fred pointed out. On the other hand, many folks love trains but they may not love the modeling aspect; building the layout, assembling structures and cars, installing electronics and such. They just wnat to run trains. If they have the wherewithal to pay for it, why should I care. I have to operate within my budget but also, do the things that bring me enjoyment and relaxation. Completing a building, finishing a module or superdetailing some rolling stock gives me a sense of satisfaction that I find few and far between in other aspects of my life (starting and finishing a project within a time span that's not measured in weeks, months or years!).
I have operated on a layout that was completely built by the owners friends. In fact, his main interest is in having the railroad there, depicting the palce of his youth, for his friends and others to come over and operate. It's a great RR and the owner is a gracious host and a heck of a nice guy.
This is not limited to model railroading either. Take the guy who buys a stock Mustang GT and bolts on all the after market accessories to make it faster, handle better and stop quicker compared to the guy who goes on and plunks down the change for a Saleen or Rousch Mustang with all of it already put together.
Ricky
jwhitten And I'd actually like to add to this one more thought-- what would be the difference between contracting out the layout, whether all or in part, and getting a friend or a buddy to help you out with the same thing? Or maybe belonging to a club where the different members all brought with them the various skills and abilities required to do the same thing.... Why is that different? I think most people would agree that it is. Yet those same friends by night, might be out commercially contracting to design and build layouts the very next morning... John
And I'd actually like to add to this one more thought-- what would be the difference between contracting out the layout, whether all or in part, and getting a friend or a buddy to help you out with the same thing? Or maybe belonging to a club where the different members all brought with them the various skills and abilities required to do the same thing....
Why is that different? I think most people would agree that it is. Yet those same friends by night, might be out commercially contracting to design and build layouts the very next morning...
John
Here's my new deck I just built. Am I a Professional deck builder or just a home owner who built a new deck, or both? You tell me.
Things to consider.
The deck is way better than the original one the professional builder built, when they built the house. Just because something is done by a professional doesn't mean it's better or worse.
When sitting on it having a with my friends, would the taste any different if the deck was built by a pro me or an amature me?
I am quite capable of painting my own house and I do a good job, but I hate painting so much I almost always hire a painter. Is my home less enjoyable because I didn't paint it myself?
The same is with our hobby. It does not matter if you do it all yourself or some or none of it. Enjoy whatever parts you like about it and get someone else to help you with the rest. Who cares.
Finally you've all seen this early photo of my layout. (someday I'll take an updated one) To those vary few that have scoffed at my acres of foam (yes I agree it is a lot of foam) without knowing the direction, reason or end result I am looking for. Why do you comment at all? I have had layouts I've built the more "traditional" way in the past and am quite capable of doing it that way again. I wanted to try something new this time. So watch the journey I am taking with this layout or don't. Constructive suggestions always welcome. Nasty comments will just make me have to roll my eyes heavenward.
I can not even draw decent stick men but I have two friends who are Professional artist. They said they would paint my backdrop for me when the time comes. They will do it for free, however I will certainly give them a gift for their time and efforts. So will my backdrop have then been done by professionals? And will it be less worthy?
Brent
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."
It doesn't bother me weather or not a certain layout was professionally built, or every structure was stracthbuilt. If the layout is a great layout, then the layout is a great layout. period.
We're all here for one common interest, model railroading.
However in my opinion, you get the more satisfaction of building your own model railroad. Look back and say "hey, I built this entire thing by myself".
I suspect that these professional layout building places exist because of the new generation of model railroaders want instant satisfaction. (Like the whole RTR argument thing.) I buy alot of RTRs, so I guess I somewhat fall into that catagory, but only because I'm new to the hobby and would rather spend my time on building the layout then to try to build a freight car good enough to look like or better than the RTR cars available.
Building a layout takes alot of money, and man hours. Some people just don't have enough time, and thus resort to having a professional build it.
Michael
CEO- Mile-HI-RailroadPrototype: D&RGW Moffat Line 1989
It's an issue because some people make it one and others mindlessly follow along.
Joe
steinjr Are you sure you want to start yet another round of ye olde "you are not a Real (tm) Model Railroader if you ...." food fight? Cause it ain't exactly brain surgery to figure out that that is where this subject most likely will head eventually :-) Smile, Stein
Are you sure you want to start yet another round of ye olde "you are not a Real (tm) Model Railroader if you ...." food fight?
Cause it ain't exactly brain surgery to figure out that that is where this subject most likely will head eventually :-)
Smile, Stein
I sincerely hope it doesn't go like that-- I'm not trying to make a distinction between who is and isn't a model railroader--and in fact I explicitly said that in my original post.
But what I *am* interested in is why its even an issue?
And why the context matters?
Forty Niner It's been my experience in life that 99.9% of people who make "negative" comments about another person or that person's possessions are generally "small minded" and jealous. There are many reasons for this reaction but mostly it's just jealousy and small minds. Some people just can't appreciate anything without tearing down to their level first. To those people I say the door works both ways, use it. I don't have enough time let to deal with these types. I don't care if your layout was "off the shelf" or built over 50 years, I can appreciate either one equally. The simple fact is if the person likes trains we already have something in common so let's build on that. As my late Mother used to say, "If you can't say anything nice why not just shut your big stupid mouth so the rest of us can enjoy it". And I have to agree with her 100%!! Everybody has an "opinion", problem is almost all people don't care about their opinions or care to hear it, especially if it's "negative". That's my opinion!!! (Ha Ha Ha!!) Mark P.S. You don't have to care about "my" opinion either, it's OK with me.....
It's been my experience in life that 99.9% of people who make "negative" comments about another person or that person's possessions are generally "small minded" and jealous.
There are many reasons for this reaction but mostly it's just jealousy and small minds. Some people just can't appreciate anything without tearing down to their level first.
To those people I say the door works both ways, use it. I don't have enough time let to deal with these types.
I don't care if your layout was "off the shelf" or built over 50 years, I can appreciate either one equally. The simple fact is if the person likes trains we already have something in common so let's build on that.
As my late Mother used to say, "If you can't say anything nice why not just shut your big stupid mouth so the rest of us can enjoy it". And I have to agree with her 100%!!
Everybody has an "opinion", problem is almost all people don't care about their opinions or care to hear it, especially if it's "negative".
That's my opinion!!! (Ha Ha Ha!!)
Mark
P.S. You don't have to care about "my" opinion either, it's OK with me.....
Actually your opinion is good and makes sense. But I'm not sure if I agree with you about the "small-minded" part, though I certainly do agree on the "we have model trains in common, let's build on that!"
I guess I'm wondering why its a hang-up in the one context and not in the others-- such as getting help from friends or club members and such.
I'm not picking on anybody's layout, nor encouraging anybody to do so-- I'm interested in *why* there's controversy at all?
Lemme see -
Remove tape - check
Pull pin - check
Release handle - check
Throw hand grenade over the wall and duck - umm - no - wait - he seems to remain standing right next to it, waiting to see what will happen ....
"In Need of Professional Help!"
From time-to-time I have read articles in the model press, including Model Railroader magazine, or on various forums, about people who have literally "purchased" their entire railroads in one go-- by which I mean they contracted with a layout design and construction firm to do all the planning and all the work. And from the examples I've seen they generally *look* okay to me. They seem well-designed and thought-out, well made and nicely apportioned, fully-scenicked and, frankly, look like they might be a lot of fun to run and operate.
But, curiously, sometimes the reaction to such a layout is negative and, or even downright nasty. I recall one specific example in Model Railroader a few years ago about a fellow who contracted with a firm to design and deliver a layout based on a locomotive servicing facility. He didn't have much space, liked locomotives, and after consultation it was decided that a service facility would be a good fit for his wishes. I forget offhand why he didn't want to do it himself, but it doesn't really matter, whatever the reason, he just elected to "buy" his railroad rather than build it. Well, in the very next issue there were letters from people complaining about how he wasn't really a model railroader and that it was somehow "cheating" since he had it built and didn't build it himself.
I remember my own thoughts, more or less, while reading the article showcasing the layout, which was something like "Boy, this is over the top commercialism. Even for Model Railroader-- they're stooping to new lows... (mumble mumble) Cow-towing to their commercial advertisers, etc." Then when I read the feedback in the next issue, I realized it was probably a common reaction. I re-read the article several times to try to figure out what it was that bothered me about it, but I was never able to quite decide what it was. But it stands to reason that simply the knowledge that it was professionally built, as everything else about it looked normal, and in fact quite nice. It was a model railroad after all!
Interestingly though, I don't have the same reaction to layouts in museums, shopping centers, professional buildings, or anywhere else. Perhaps its the fact that they are housed in a "professional" location and its expected that they would be professional designed and constructed.
Perhaps it simply the knowledge that the layout was professionally designed in a hobby where most modelers typically pride themselves on their own accomplishments-- and expect that their modeling brethren are similarly engaged in designing and constructing their own layouts-- to whatever degree and ability they can.
But what about the layouts that were commercially-contracted out by the modeler? Apparently that is a different story, but maybe people don't really know how to approach it-- not quite sure what to say, or how to approach it. And anyway, what is there really to say when the whole thing has been designed and built by professionals who know all the secrets and all the tricks? It'd be a bit like trying to critique a Disney World exhibit! (A real Mickey Mouse operation there, if ever there was one! :-) The layout may be uniformly well-done, and yet other than "ownership", it is not really "of" the modeler in the same sense as a home-made layout is.
So that's one thing...
The other is this-- let's break it down some, just for the heck of it...
From one perspective, nearly all layouts are really "store-bought" at some level, when you consider that the construction materials are almost always purchased. Whether then combined or placed as-is on the layout being kind-of immaterial. The lumber is typically purchased, the track materials, the trains and rolling stock, the structures, the switches and wiring, the throttles or DCC control units-- whatever. Even if you scratch-build, you still probably purchased the materials rather than whittling your own window frames and casting your own door knobs-- though I'm sure there are some who do exactly that!
And I'm not trying to call one type a "Model Railroader" and another type "Not a Railroader"-- that's not where I'm going with all this.
So, My Questions For Today Are:
-- Suppose you found out that the owner of some layout you admire really, in fact, contracted with a commercial design and construction firm to create the entire layout?
-- Or maybe they just consulted with a professional design firm to develop the track plan and that's all-- the modeler did everything else? Or maybe it was the track plan and the benchwork? Or the track plan, benchwork, some scenicking and the major structures...??
-- Where is the threshold point? How much, and of what, has to be "store-bought" before the "negative connotation" emerges? I reckon that's what I'm really asking.
-- Or, maybe you're not bothered by the idea of a "store-bought" layout. Why or why not?
-- How would you feel about the modeler him or herself, if you find out that some or all of their layout has been professionally contracted out? Would that change your opinion? Do you think the modeler ought to be "required" to "fess up" and inform people of the layout's status?
As always, I'm looking for your thoughts and opinions-- and photos too if you got 'em!