ATLANTIC CENTRAL CNJ831It would seem that a lot of folks have a lot of questions and some, thoughts regarding the closing of this particular shop. I'll try to answer as many as I can in appropriate detail, since I believe they reflect the current state of things in the hobby, as well as future trends........ CNJ, I agree with your observations, to the degree that I have knowledge, but I have some questions for you. Is the hobby shrinking in terms of a percentage of the general population? and if so, based on what "peak" year/time in terms of a percentage of the general population? Who are we counting? Everyone who buys a train set? Everyone who buys a train set then goes back for some accessories? Only those who identify their model train activities as "model railroading? Two key questions come to mind - How many customers are there? and how much do they spend? Per year? Per decade? In a life time? Ajusted for inflation, do they each spend more now or did they spend more in 1960? ,1980?, 1990? Are young men simply not interested in this sort of thing anymore?
CNJ831It would seem that a lot of folks have a lot of questions and some, thoughts regarding the closing of this particular shop. I'll try to answer as many as I can in appropriate detail, since I believe they reflect the current state of things in the hobby, as well as future trends........
CNJ,
I agree with your observations, to the degree that I have knowledge, but I have some questions for you.
Is the hobby shrinking in terms of a percentage of the general population? and if so, based on what "peak" year/time in terms of a percentage of the general population?
Who are we counting? Everyone who buys a train set? Everyone who buys a train set then goes back for some accessories? Only those who identify their model train activities as "model railroading?
Two key questions come to mind - How many customers are there? and how much do they spend? Per year? Per decade? In a life time?
Ajusted for inflation, do they each spend more now or did they spend more in 1960? ,1980?, 1990?
Are young men simply not interested in this sort of thing anymore?
Sheldon, the questions you pose, if accurately and fully addressed, would require my posting 6-10 pages of background info and the logical conclusions that can be drawn from them. The Pollyannas here take decided offense to such posts, so let me advise you to consult some of the previous (a year and more ago) threads that addressed this subject for details and actual published data. I will point out, however, that just how one defines the term "model railroader" strongly influences any such numbers.
There are those here that feel anyone who has ever purchased a miniature train is automatically to be classified as a model railroader. This then comes to include folks who purchase trains for a Christmas Village, those that collect John Deer and NASCAR trains, Brio Thomas sets, as well as an absolute host of others extreme fringe items. To include these folks as model railroaders is really utter nonsense. The people at MR over half a century ago coined the phrase "adult model railroading" to describe the hobby, indicating that it was much more than simply playing with a set of little trains, as kids did.
Now model railroading has, from its very inception in the late 1920's, been considered a craftsman's construction hobby. Simply reading about it, or just collecting/owning trains, honestly relegates one to being an armchair person, or at best a model train enthusiast, as such participation begins and ends with that highly limited, non-modeling, approach to the hobby.
The basic premise surrounding our hobby is that its goal is to build a reasonable representation of the real world in miniature that has operating trains as its centerpiece (see the countless MR and RMC editorials over the years about this). To do so requires one to acquire a multitude of necessary techniques, talents and skills, as very few individuals find these really inherent. To go about that process, until very recently it was a prerequisite that one buy guides and magazines that offered instruction and information on how-to and the most recent developments in the hobby. To a degree, the Internet has come to replace this, at least in some folks' minds, but they disregard the fact that just because something appears on the Internet does not make the information correct, as does peer review in the magazines and guides.
So...the above indicates that to be an actual model railroader one should have a layout of some sort where the hobbyist's efforts has made it modestly realistic in appearance, i.e. be at least somewhere along in the operating and scenicking phases. Likewise, the hobbyist should be fairly up-to-date on the modeling techniques and materials necessary to create same. Operating out-of-the-box trains on a 4x8 piece of essentially bare plywood hardly qualifies as model railroading in this day and age. Neither does the sometimes proposed concept that there is a huge uncounted number of self taught, lone wolf, hobbyists out there who never interact with the hobby world via books. magazines, or the Internet. You may split from the pack after acquiring lots of experience, but doing so dooms one to rapidly fall behind the hobby's forefront. Regardless, at some point and probably for an extended period, these folks would have in some manner been evident along with the rest of us. Incidentally, this same canard has also been employed to suggest that there is a phantom army of teenage and twenty-something hobbyists out there that will save the hobby in the future.
Applying the above reasonable criteria, together with any and all available published hobby statistics, one soon discovers that no matter what figures are employed for supposed hobbyist numbers, one is pretty much forced toward the conclusion that there is unlikely to be much more than just 100,000 practicing model railroaders currently within the United States. Of that total, perhaps 10,000-20,000 might be classified as "serious", or "advanced" hobbyists, implying that their modeling efforts equal, or don't fall all that far short of, the sorts of skill on sees on the pikes appearing in the magazines. Overall, our numbers are really quite small and shrinking. Incidentally, if one attempts to relate these figures to the population by percentage, today it is less that 50% of what it was several decades ago. And the average hobbyist is also just about twice as old today!
CNJ831
Let's face it, we all are some what responsible for lhs closings. There are better prices found on net stores and else where. When one has a limited budget, one will sometimes shop around. We do it with our cars, tires, clothes, groceries,etc, why not trains? A lhs can not possibly be able to cater to everyone, heck, everyone on this forum alone has their own idea of how there model railroad should be. I enjoy going to my two lhs's, but both shops keep a limited inventory. With today's economic woes guys aren't spending money on trains.
The notion of a lhs of doling out thousands of dollars for a laser cutter or decal printer isn't going to happen. Hell, he can't keep a decent inventory of locos and cars any more. Bigbox stores have a national inventory to chose from and can bargain for the best price and liquidate to gains prices somewhere else, the little guy doesn't have that.
I doubt that seeing a train set in the window is going to lure new kids into the hobby. Today's kids have video games,cell phones ipods, soccer leagues,karate, warhammer,manga, etc, trains take a lot of cash and time. Those of us from the fifties and sixties grew up with trains or had several friends or their dads had them.
Will the hobby die,no, but it will fade away...............mike h.
andrechapelon, I have a brother lives in Cupertino and, although I don't get into the bay area as often as I once did, I make it a habit to visit The Train Shop when visiting the area. It is a fantastic store with a model railroading supply of merchandise second to none; the proprietors--I was told one time that the place was run by a father-son team although the individual who told me that was an employee--exercise one of the best people skills in the industry.
When I first started going to The Train Shop about 1980-81, it was operated by Vern Cole and Charlie Givens, who is well known in SP circles as an expert in SP steam power. I don't remember if Vern's son, Dennis, was there at the time although I do remember him being there in the early 90's. Charlie Givens retired some years ago and moved away, leaving Vern and Dennis to run the shop. I think it was 2 or 3 years ago when Vern retired and Dennis assumed the reins.
My biggest regret in moving out of Silicon Valley to Monterey about 8 years ago is that it put me nearly 1.5 hours away from my two favorite places, The Train Shop and The Country Inn (at the corner of El Camino and Scott in what used to be called :Mervyn's Plaza). The Train Shop cannot be beat for model railroad supplies and The Country Inn's pancakes are still the best I've ever had (and I've searched for better). My Saturday routine used to consist of a short stack at The Country Inn followed by arrival at The Train Shop just about the time it opened. I can't speak for others, but if there ever was a personal Golden Age, that was it. Fortunately, my elder stepson and his wife bought the house we lived in and when we visit I can recreate those glorious days of yesteryear even if only occasionally.
Pancakes and trains. Life doesn't get any better than that.
Andre
I get up to Dutchess train and Hobby about once a month. I didn't know Bob was closing until I read it here and was confirmed by another member of my club. I don't need much for my layout so I haven't been spending much there except for magazines or styrene. He had a small order on backorder for me and now I guess i'll never get it. Several members of my club live in the Poughkeepsie area and visit there for things they need regularly. That shop was over thirty miles from where I live. There are two other shops where I visit and they are both also over thirty miles away.
But I also know many modelers that will not be sorry it is gone due to the attitude of the owner. I understand he may be continuing on with mail order.
Driline Just look at the Crap Life Like and Bachmann sell at your local discount store. Those two idiot companies are responsible for the downfall of this hobby bar none.
Those two idiot companies are responsible for the downfall of this hobby bar none.
In speaking of the bachmann trainset junk, I've actually been trying to find a few of the cabooses with the slanted coupla for a while at swap meets I've been going to. With some work, I'll end up with an accurate ex-CB&Q NE-12 for my BN, that doesn't cost an arm and a leg like the brass one does.
I like Shayfan's idea of the milling machine and the white decal printing. I would like to have some low nosed GP7s or GP9s, but I can't find any of the inserts for a split windshield or any Atlas SD26 cabs. And I would need decals to paint said units (miroscale decals would only do a few)
Vincent
Wants: 1. high-quality, sound equipped, SD40-2s, C636s, C30-7s, and F-units in BN. As for ones that don't cost an arm and a leg, that's out of the question....
2. An end to the limited-production and other crap that makes models harder to get and more expensive.
I started with Tyco back in 1971. I have fond memories of my first layout with a Tyco Ten Wheeler and a 0-6-0 switcher. I built the Atlas train station, signal tower, and lumberyard. I used Atlas track, snap switches, and their block controllers. I have since moved on to better stuff, but in some ways I have never equaled those wonderous first days in the hobby.
Even though the hobby shops near me closed or dropped S years ago, I still enjoy browsing a well stocked train shop. And I usually find something I can use or a magazine to read. Sadly they are diminishing one by one. I have no idea how that will affect the hobby. But retailing in general is changing, the independent shops are fading away, victims of our desire for the lowest price. Chains, internet, and shows seem to be the wave of the future. Time will tell if that's sufficient.
One of the reasons I enjoy browsing the antique shores is that I see things that aren't carried by the chain stores. Trains are showing up there too.
One way or another, I expect to model railroad the rest of my life. And I have enough stuff stashed away to do it. Maybe the next generation of model railroaders will shop the antique stores for my stuff after I'm gone.
Enjoy
Paul
And here I thought that the traditional toy train set was the gateway drug of choice. Quality was largely irrelevant. At least now they have knuckle couplers on them. Are they still truck mounted?
Driline ATLANTIC CENTRAL Toy stores and department stores have always sold crapy HO and N scale sets as far back as the 50's - that has nothing to do with what is happening now. Tyco, LifeLike, Bachmann, 1958, 1978 or 2010 that has always been. Sheldon It was just a thought
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Toy stores and department stores have always sold crapy HO and N scale sets as far back as the 50's - that has nothing to do with what is happening now. Tyco, LifeLike, Bachmann, 1958, 1978 or 2010 that has always been. Sheldon
Toy stores and department stores have always sold crapy HO and N scale sets as far back as the 50's - that has nothing to do with what is happening now.
Tyco, LifeLike, Bachmann, 1958, 1978 or 2010 that has always been.
Sheldon
It was just a thought
In fact, while I have not seen any recent LifeLike stuff up close, the new Bachmann stuff is pretty respectable from an operational standpoint - and some of the regular line is pretty good looking too - as far as detail for that price range.
Athearn is also back in the train set market. In fact, a beginner today stands a buch better chance of having a good HO train set experiance than ever before in my 40 years in this hobby - and I started working in hobby shops in 1969.
But what do I know, I'm just hick with a pickup, a gun and some DC powered trains.
ATLANTIC CENTRALToy stores and department stores have always sold crapy HO and N scale sets as far back as the 50's - that has nothing to do with what is happening now. Tyco, LifeLike, Bachmann, 1958, 1978 or 2010 that has always been. Sheldon
Driline You guys are way off base and have got it ALL WRONG! You wanna know why this hobby is dying? Just look at the Crap Life Like and Bachmann sell at your local discount store. Those two idiot companies are responsible for the downfall of this hobby bar none.
You guys are way off base and have got it ALL WRONG!
You wanna know why this hobby is dying?
Just look at the Crap Life Like and Bachmann sell at your local discount store.
Howard ZaneBrian Looking at Hiwayhobby.com photos, they obviously had evolved into a huge toy and quasi RTR hobby store. During my years in NJ, I use to frequent this store, and I can remember rather well going downstairs and seeing cases full of brass locomotives and really fine craftsman MR items. What happened??? I can guess that they made the same mistake I had made when I first opened my hobby shop here in Columbia in 1973....too general in scope. It took me only a month or so to realize that I had to specialize, and of course....trains was it. In Laurel MD, not only does Peach Creek Hobbies specialze in trains, but they have gone even further by specializing in steel mill modeling ( he also specializes in high end Bachmannn....not an oxymoron!). This has become rather popular in HO, and now Peach Creek is know nation-wide as the main source for steel mill stuff. This was a very smart move. John Glaab, the honcho, once specialized in brass and craftsman items as besides being an expert in these fields, he has proven to be an excellent business man. This business talent gave what was needed to recognize his market and react accurately. Again my point....it is business ability that is the deciding factor. HZ
Brian
Looking at Hiwayhobby.com photos, they obviously had evolved into a huge toy and quasi RTR hobby store. During my years in NJ, I use to frequent this store, and I can remember rather well going downstairs and seeing cases full of brass locomotives and really fine craftsman MR items. What happened??? I can guess that they made the same mistake I had made when I first opened my hobby shop here in Columbia in 1973....too general in scope. It took me only a month or so to realize that I had to specialize, and of course....trains was it. In Laurel MD, not only does Peach Creek Hobbies specialze in trains, but they have gone even further by specializing in steel mill modeling ( he also specializes in high end Bachmannn....not an oxymoron!). This has become rather popular in HO, and now Peach Creek is know nation-wide as the main source for steel mill stuff. This was a very smart move. John Glaab, the honcho, once specialized in brass and craftsman items as besides being an expert in these fields, he has proven to be an excellent business man. This business talent gave what was needed to recognize his market and react accurately. Again my point....it is business ability that is the deciding factor.
HZ
Howard,
Thats the place where I got shot with the golden arrow. After visiting and open house in Rutherford NJ and another weekend jaunt to Roadside America me, my brother and dad were hopelessly hooked. So we devised a plan like we really knew what we were doing.......lol and jumped in the 1961 Mercury and headed up Rt.17 to Ramsey to nirvana aka Highway Hobby House and man you weren't exaggerating one bit when you walked in and went down the stairs off tot he left was an entire wall of brass trains. Row after row of beautiful brass almost as impressive as your living room......lol and you name it they had it. So being as I wasn't able to ride my Schwinn up there on a daily or weekly basis i had the opportunity to just keep saving my paper route money and eventually make a trip up there and buy what ever.
I can't recall when but then they built a new building, probably the same one that they are now vacating and it sure seemed impressive until you walked in and there were R/C plane, bots, cars games puzzles craft stuff yuk! that meant girls to (at 10 year old kid they were evil and the satin's spawn on the backside of 50 I am some what still feeling the same way, hum?) But where were the trains, what was once a giant train heaven was now all stuffed into one corner or a some what smaller section then they had before. The customer service had seemed to go right out the window along with everything else, but I just attributed it to the arrogant North Jersey Bergen county I'm better then you even if I walk around like I have poop on the end of my nose attitude.
So you right for one to succeed not only in the train hobby, but any where else you need to maintain focus.I still believe a person who is a good business man and knows what he's doing can still make a go of a train store.
Oh and don't forget that Bachmann is one of the only manufacturers that continually offer Amtrak equipment including the Acela: Also a big favorite with very young future Model railroaders, Thomas.
http://www.bachmanntrains.com/home-usa/products.php?act=viewProd&productId=3437
Springfield PA
Well those look better than the TYCO I grew up with. To someone that is established in the hobby it's lower grade but to a kid opening it up on Christmas it's exciting. Also I noticed that lately the Hobbytown chain has been adding some quality stuff. The one near me tripled their model RR stock
0-6-0I have never been to a hobby lobby before. So I not sure how good it will be.
It's not a hobby store in the true sense of the word, so Al's has nothing to worry about. They carry most of the bachmann or life like crap, and very little at that. Nothing any true model railroader would be caught dead with on his layout. They do however have some nice Lionel sets, and woodland scenic stuff. If you use one of their online 40% off coupons you can get a pretty good deal.
I go there for paint brushes, xacto knives, foam board, and glue.
We seem to be in agreement about the inventory question, without an attractive and useful inventory, a retail store serves no purpose. A model train store cannot survive selling #80 drill bits, Plastruct and Kadee couplers.
Athearn has the right marketing model for the future - ONE price to all dealers with enough markup to allow some some discounting but not so much as to undermine the "value" of the retail price. I buy ALL my Athearn needs (which is a fair amount) from my LHS. His modest discount to customers puts him in the same price range with the big mail order/internet dealers once you factor in shipping.
I don't know where the "modelers" have gone or why there are not new ones comming into the hobby, but I will plainly say I seem to have less and less in common with people I meet in the hobby today as opposed to years ago.
The eighties and ninties were a boom of product in this hobby, not just cars and locos, but all sorts of stuff, stuff now "out of stock" at Walthers and not on the shelves of any LHS - if you can find a LHS.
Did those products not make a profit? OR, is that part of the market gone? shrunk? dead?
I still say as a "modeler", I'm a better customer to a manufacturer than a collector or even a "causal" RTR table top operator. Year in and year out for some 40 years I have spend most of my personally alotted "play" money to model trains. Never have gotten bored, never "sold off" my "collection", and have purchased a wide selection of model products form a large number of manufacturers and retail outlets. AND, in my case, since I have the means and the space, I'm building a fairly large layout. So I buy 4 of this loco and 6 of that loco and 12 of that box car and 18 of this hopper - rather than just one for my display case - but none of those locos are UP Big Boys.
Yet the industry, which use to seem to be after my money, no longer seems interested in my money. Instead they are interested in selling $70 RTR passenger cars and $500 DCC/sound locomotives - and seem to have little else to offer. And they don't want ot make anything long enough fo me to find out about it and develope a need for it on my layout. No wonder the hobby is dieing - maybe the collectors have run the modelers right out of it and now the collectors are "bored" or their stock portfolio took a hit or whatever.
So, you thoughts on my questions are welcomed.
Hey 0-6-0, where exactly is Al's? And where is hobby lobby opening? Those are both much closer then either place I call a "local" hobby shop. I know where Macedonis and Bedfor are, just never knew about these places.
Modeling the Cleveland and Pittsburgh during the PennCentral era starting on the Cleveland lakefront and ending in Mingo junction
I also remember The Engine House and you remember it as I do . . . . . . . . . . the last time I was in there was sometime in 1968 or 1969 ; N-Scale was just coming into its own and I was curious so I was browsing through his N-Scale section; I had to wipe some of the dust off the countertop and even then visibility was poor because of the none-to-efficient lighting.
My most memorable experience associated with The Engine House occurred in the summer of 1968. (My pappy was stationed at the Air Force's Satellite Test Center adjacent to Lockheed and Moffett Field and I stopped in for a short visit while on leave from where I was stationed at San Berdoo.) Anyway, as I was entering into The Engine House I encountered two gentlemen in the doorway exiting. We exchanged salutations and when I was inside and these two gentlemen had departed in their automobile the owner(?) ask if I knew who I had just passed in the doorway. No, I said, I didn't know who they were. "That's John Allen from down at Monterrey," I was informed. My one and only contact with The Wizard consisted of an exchange of good afternoons. Years later when Model Railroader published an In Memorium photo I looked at it and said "Yep. That's the guy I met in the doorway."
Not sure just when The Engine House closed its door because it was in the late '70s before I got to the bay area again and my brother informed me that it no longer was in business. But like you said . . . . . dust and dingy lighting.
In talking about defunct hobby shops I might mention that I was able to visit Bobbye Hall's in Dallas twice; on my first visit I was escorted through the store by Mrs Hall herself. For those of you who never had the experience of visiting Bobbye Halls I might say that she had stuff crammed into every nook and cranny available but the sheer volume of available merchandise made it one of my most memorable browsing experiences. I was deeply saddened when it was announced that she was closing her doors.
From the far, far reaches of the wild, wild west I am: rtpoteet
I got to get back to the basement, but since I'm doing on line work today, I keep gravitating to this thread.
Shayfan has some really good suggestions for a shop and I concur fully. He does miss one point about the importance of a LHS.........exposure to possile new entrants.
· I would venture into a hobby store MUCH MORE OFTEN if I could go there and have my scratch-building project cut out by a computer controlled laser. Sure, those machines are expensive, but you can market the service to doll house builders, airplane builders, as well as train guys. You might eventually have to hire someone just to run it to keep up with the demand.
· Offer while-you-wait decoder installation (while folks are waiting they are bound to buy something).
My point is that there isn't a business in the USA that is successfully operating like it did 20 years ago. The LHS is no exception. I think it is possible to be a great success as an LHS entrepreneur, but it's time to be more global and less local, and think of what you can become - not what you used to be.
Phil, I'm not a rocket scientist; they are my students.
It may be a bit of old news some what but to add to this closing another North Jersey hobby icon Highway Hobby House http://www.hiwayhobby.com/ is also closing it's door's. I was never a big fan of their but thats not the issue at hand. We had a train store close down near where I live about three years a go by the name of Gene's Trains located in Brick NJ for the life of me I don't know why. The owner said it was the only one of his three stores that was turning a profit, t had been in the same location for a good number of years,had a very strong following and even with all that in it's favor he closed it down so the story goes so his son could run a store he recently purchased up in Union county but the kids heart was not even in the parking lot never mind in the business. You can't close up shop by 3:30 or 4:00pm so you can beat the traffic home on the Garden State Parkway, not a smart thing to do. With the closing of yet another store which is never good news on the flip side we still have some like my LHS of choice The Model Railroad shop of Piscataway, NJ still going as strong if not stronger then ever.
I don't think we can entirely put the focus of the blame for these stores closing on the internet. My store in fact is just breaking into the internet but to my knowledge still does not have online ordering. These guys get it right. They have been in business in the same location since 1933 so that has to tell you that these fellas know a little something about the model train business. Will they look at this as an opportunity to exploit their customers who now have one less choice, not a snowballs chance in hell that will ever happen. These guys are both stand up individuals and treat all their customers fair and honestly. I don't know if the same can't be said for the other shops that have the way of the closed sign. We also need to face the reality that a lot of us don't like to look at every morning when we stare at that mug in the mirror looking back at us. We ain't getting any younger and lets face it fellas as we all know the majority of the fraternity in our hobby is f the Geritol set and those of us headed there on an express train.Unfortunately many hobby shops as well as some great kit manufactures and mom & op specialty operations are simply fading away do to attrition, not the big bad evil internet. The smart members of the business side of the hobby have embraced the internet and used it as a tool to generate sales, thats what a smart business man does.
So what the business side of the hobby needs is some new blood, new forward thinking. If I had the financial ware-withal to invest in opening up a new business there's no question in my mind that I would open a train store. I don't look at the glass as being half empty but rather as it being half full. It's a fact that we are in tough financial times no question, but it has been a fact of history that when entrepreneurs had the savvy and the hindsight to invest during hard times in the past, when the hard times were behind them they prospered and usually in a very big way. We all sit back and say well I don't have that kind of money to invest , well neither do I but if you wan to do something to help stem the tide of your LHS going by the way side the next time you need to buy something hop in your car and make the drive to the LHS or do what we like to do pick up the phone book and find one's we've never been to before and seek them out. Never know maybe they have a really good deal or that kit you know you have to buy today because it may not be here tomorrow.
Finally, I agree with Howard 100% that the LHS could have been a primary factor in perpetuating the hobby into the future, but once they are all gone, in my opinion the hobby's fate is sealed.
-----------------
John,I don't think so..Slot cars are a hard item to find yet 1/32nd slot car racing has seen growth.Today's consumer is computer savvy and knows how to shop on line. Today's instant knowledge via the Internet and forums as all but replaced face to face hobby communication that was once so common in the hobby..You want to learn to ballast? Go to YouTube,want to know basic modeling like track laying go to YouTube..Just about anything modeling can be found there including decoder installation.
Its a completely different era we live in and I have no doubt the hobby will survive the coming years like it has in the past...After after that slot car fad of the 60's never faded into the sunset like many thought and today's cars is highly detailed.Look closely and you can see very few hobbies has died out over the years.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Howard asks the shop's name. It was Dutchess Train & Hobby. The store itself had perhaps 2,000-2,500 feet of floor space, about 80% of which was for model railroading items. HO and N scales, plus Lionel and MTH tinplate, were well represented in the stock, as were all sorts of scratchbuilding materials, replacement parts and a collection of Walthers Cornerstone series of buildings (in HO and N) second to none.
Those who say that the way folks purchase items has changed and will soon be all about the Internet are deluding themselves when I comes to this hobby. If you are a collector, or dabbler, it may be possible, even conveniet, to muddle along that way, but for those who build models and layouts, the Internet is a poor substitute for a LHS. When that #80 drill bit snaps mid project; when you need one more piece of a particular size styrene strip; or 3' more of code 55 track, to finish out a critical weekend project, see how well a shipper three states away, charging $10 shipping for $3.95 worth of items, replaces having a hobby shop 5 miles way whose owner will keep the shop doors open an extra 15 minutes past closing to allow you to get there to buy these things...
Howard also specifically asks: ... do you think that these many closings we so often read about are the hobby getting smaller or buying changes shifting to on line shopping. Or just poor business management? In my travels I have visited many successful train stores. Quite frankly I go out of my way to support these brick and motar shops as there lies the future of the hobby.
In reply, while I acknowledge that many people's buying methods have changed; folks shouldn't be misled into believing it's true of the entire hobby. I'd venture that at least 30% of hobbyists - those over 55-60 - are not really computer literate and so don't make purchases on-line. Yet, these folks, as the prime model and layout builders, are still the heart of the hobby today. Certainly, some shops close as a result of poor management, but not the one in question here. One of the major problems stems from limited runs. LHS can't maintain a stock of all the new, but very briefly available, locomotives and cars without expending a fortune...and few can do that. Then, too, you all already know what the statistics and trends indicate to me about the shrinking of the hobby.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL "Collectors vs modelers - collectors are lousy customers long term, their buying habits are based on emotions and how well the stock market is doing, and weither they have gotten bored yet. Modelers, at least most of the ones I have known in 40 years, be they ultra serious or very causal, spend roughly the same hobby budget year in and year out, for decades - or LIFETIMES. So by aiming too much product at collectors, manufacturers have created a kind of saturation and colapse - like many other "collectables" markets have experianced. Mike wolf did this to O gauge, now he's aiming for HO - problem is he is not on the ground floor this time, Bachmann, Proto and BLI beat him to it and the market is nearly saturated already. So when the collector/RTR thing colapses, I will still be building "model trains". Maybe some company will want my money - we will see. Sheldon "
"Collectors vs modelers - collectors are lousy customers long term, their buying habits are based on emotions and how well the stock market is doing, and weither they have gotten bored yet. Modelers, at least most of the ones I have known in 40 years, be they ultra serious or very causal, spend roughly the same hobby budget year in and year out, for decades - or LIFETIMES. So by aiming too much product at collectors, manufacturers have created a kind of saturation and colapse - like many other "collectables" markets have experianced. Mike wolf did this to O gauge, now he's aiming for HO - problem is he is not on the ground floor this time, Bachmann, Proto and BLI beat him to it and the market is nearly saturated already.
So when the collector/RTR thing colapses, I will still be building "model trains". Maybe some company will want my money - we will see.
Sheldon "
Sheldon,
That pinging sound is you hitting the spike right on the head. I could not have expressed my feelings about the industry any better with twice as many words, for I too am a model builder/modelrailroader.
An experience at a LHS may illistrate what is happening to so many of them. First of all, I have supported the LHS's since I was a kid, so, so much for my record. Any way, I stepped into the store and slowely browsed around for some parts and lost wax castings for a model project I was contemplating. Little did I know that the store had changed hands since my last adventure there. The shelves and hanging stock I new had been there was no longer in sight.
I ventured to the main counter top ask the clerk, (I didn't know was the new owner), where were the small parts I was seeking.?
His reply was, "Why would you need those?"
I explained that I was scratchbuilding a project and needed them to complete it.
He looked at me with a glazed stare and then said, "Scratch what?"
At that point, I realized I was in the company of someone with no backbround in modelbuilding, so I repeated my question with an added statement about starting from scratch in the building process.
"Why would you go to all that trouble when we have boxes full of ready made products?" he asked as his eyes sort of rolled as if here was about to be board to death.
To save him that agony, I stated that I would not be back and that his business was not long for this world. That was seven months ago and guess what, the shop is now closed and since it was only one left near me, my future buying will be on-line.
Well, it was nice while it lasted.
Joe
Geez....I gots me a railroad that needs building, but this is an interesting and important (and certainly well hashed over) topic.
What I have discovered in my many decades of partonizing hobby shops ( and even owning one) is that the success and failure lies fully within the proprietor. I sold my shop because I had an offer that paid me several times what I was making from the store....and that was not bad either! Here in Maryland we are lucky as we have several excellent shops that are run by folks who in addition to loving trains, are fine business men.
My railroad which dwells in a 2850 sq. ft basement could not have been built had it not been for the beyond excellent service from a shop in Gettysburg, PA.which is not far from me. The owner has run this shop for several decades and has made a nice living from it. He knows fully the meaning of service and follow up and listens to his customers. And he is successful!!!
Folks who would be potential model rails ( and we need them) doubtfully will be insired by a web site, as they must be able to see, hold, and be told not only about an item, but the hobby in general. Of course we have the many fine model train shows which serve this purpose well, but they are only or sometimes just a few times per year in a given region. The shop is year round and if the location is good, newbies will come in.
I love visiting shops that always have a fresh look, sales on certain items, close out tables, then new goodies, plenty of used merchadise for sale, friendly and knowledgeable staff, and give a hoot about the customer's needs. I have found shop owners who complain bitterly about everything and blame all of their problems on everyone but themselves. Then I have found others who will join the 21st, but still complain, and then there are the trend setters. A hobby shop is a business and must be run like one or failure is guaranteed.
My two bucks worth..
Do any readers know of any new shops opening? Now, that would be a pleasant read!
Not off the top of my head, but I do know of a shop that is now in its 2nd generation of ownership and has been in business for 30 + years. The owners of The Train Shop in Santa Clara, CA, both first and second generation, must be doing something right despite not having an Internet presence. It's a favorite hangout of a Saturday morning for the Silicon Valley miniature ferroequinology set, carrying N, HO, S, O (2 and 3 rail) and the near infinite variety of scale/gauge combinations available to the large scale set.
A lot of shops are sole proprietorships and go out of business when the owner retires or dies. Years ago, there was a shop in Sunnyvale, CA, The Engine House, owned by a rather eccentric gentleman named E.C. ("Easy") Schwafel. This shop was legendary for its owner's deficiencies in the people skills department, its dark and dingy interior (the dust on the stock was collecting dust) and its rather poor location. I don't recall ever seeing more than one other customer in the store any time I went in and you couldn't talk "Easy" into cutting a price break on anything in stock, even if it had been on the shelf since the Pleistocene epoch and any potential purchaser ran the risk of black lung disease in the process of removing layers of dust from the package to obtain entrance to the contents. Memory tends to fade with age, but I vaguely remember that :"Easy" would raise prices on stock that had been in his inventory for years for years when the manufacturer raised prices on new production. I quit going in 1975 and was surprised to find that the shop lasted until 1991:
http://links.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/e/a/1995/09/15/METRO6343.dtl&hw=amassing&sn=175&sc=207
My only guess as to why the shop lasted so long is that it was more of a hobby than a business. It certainly seemed to lack that most important ingredient for a successful business, paying customers. Despite the above article's emphasis on toy trains, The Engine House actually carried scale items in N, HO, and O. I recall going to The Engine House for maybe a period of a couple of years in a vain attempt to find something on which I was actually willing to spend money. A lot of that was probably due to the fact that there was no order to the way inventory was "displayed", everything had a layer of dust and the level of lighting was approximately that of a theater when the house lights are dimmed, but before the projector's been fired up.
The primary difference between then and now is that back then if a shop went out of business, the only people who knew (or cared) were those within its business area . Now, thanks to the Internet, we get informed of shop closures in areas where most of us would never do business because we don't live there and couldn't have had any effect on the shop's viability as a business anyway. Nonetheless, people several states away will don sackcloth and ashes and lament the demise of a business of which they had no prior knowledge and to which they contributed no revenue.
I have personal knowledge of several shops that have closed their doors for good. Of course, these shops closed their doors years ago, some before my children were born (all of whom are closer to 40 than 30). Shall we lament them as indicative of the decline of the brick and mortar shop? Fifty years ago, I spent my paper route money at a shop on Franklin St. in Santa Clara. We moved away in 1962 and I didn't get back to the area until 1970. It was gone. For a few years in the 70's, I haunted a hobby shop in the Town & Country Shopping off Stevens Creek Blvd in San Jose. It went out of business some time in the mid to late 70's. The shopping center no longer exists, either. There was another shop on Stevens Creek beginning about 1973/74 or so, but it was in Cupertino. The owner moved east about 3 years later, but did manage to sell the shop to someone else. IIRC, that shop was out of business by 1980.
Now that I think of it, the majority of shops I've ever done business with since I was a kid have gone out of business for one reason or another (not to mention manufacturers whose products I paid good money for). However, it's only within recent memory that the sub-hobby of lamenting the loss of hobby shops has gained widespread acceptance. Then again, ti's not that long ago that what some person had for lunch remained a private matter rather than being electronically posted for all and sundry to see.
FYI, I had pancakes for breakfast.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL CNJ831 The suburbs north of New York City were a hotbed of model railroading from the days of the hobby's very inception, a region that once hosted better than a dozen model railroad establishments including arguably the largest model railroading store in America! However, the past decade or two has witnessed a very steady decline in regional hobbyist numbers and yesterday marked a grim milestone in that decline. The last remaining brick & mortar model railroad hobby shop in the 150 mile stretch between the northern city limits of NYC and Albany, east of the Hudson River, closed its doors yesterday. It will now be over an hour's drive to any other store that caters largely to the model railroading hobby - and this in is a region where the population is well in excess of one million persons. CNJ831 A few thoughts: As someone who once worked in the hobby/model train business, and managed a train department in a full line hobby shop, I can say I saw this comming 30 years ago. I don't know if the hobby is shrinking or not, I'm not privy to any information that would confirm or deny that, but I do think it is changing in a number of different ways, ways that I do not see as good for the hobby or the retailers or the consumers in the long run. Good retail stores once kept an INVENTORY of available items up to the limits of their space and money. Be it current business economics or changes in this hobby or both, that is not happening and is hard to do. Why should I go to a brick and mortar store that has nothing on its shelves?
CNJ831 The suburbs north of New York City were a hotbed of model railroading from the days of the hobby's very inception, a region that once hosted better than a dozen model railroad establishments including arguably the largest model railroading store in America! However, the past decade or two has witnessed a very steady decline in regional hobbyist numbers and yesterday marked a grim milestone in that decline. The last remaining brick & mortar model railroad hobby shop in the 150 mile stretch between the northern city limits of NYC and Albany, east of the Hudson River, closed its doors yesterday. It will now be over an hour's drive to any other store that caters largely to the model railroading hobby - and this in is a region where the population is well in excess of one million persons. CNJ831
The suburbs north of New York City were a hotbed of model railroading from the days of the hobby's very inception, a region that once hosted better than a dozen model railroad establishments including arguably the largest model railroading store in America! However, the past decade or two has witnessed a very steady decline in regional hobbyist numbers and yesterday marked a grim milestone in that decline.
The last remaining brick & mortar model railroad hobby shop in the 150 mile stretch between the northern city limits of NYC and Albany, east of the Hudson River, closed its doors yesterday. It will now be over an hour's drive to any other store that caters largely to the model railroading hobby - and this in is a region where the population is well in excess of one million persons.
A few thoughts:
As someone who once worked in the hobby/model train business, and managed a train department in a full line hobby shop, I can say I saw this comming 30 years ago.
I don't know if the hobby is shrinking or not, I'm not privy to any information that would confirm or deny that, but I do think it is changing in a number of different ways, ways that I do not see as good for the hobby or the retailers or the consumers in the long run.
Good retail stores once kept an INVENTORY of available items up to the limits of their space and money. Be it current business economics or changes in this hobby or both, that is not happening and is hard to do.
Why should I go to a brick and mortar store that has nothing on its shelves?
I'm going to suggest that there seems to be a lack of interest in brick and mortar stores precisely because stock no longer exists--we do not see inventory as an asset but as a cost factor. There needs to be a shift in our thinking here if one is to see any stemming of the tide as it were.
I'm also thinking that we need to keep encouraging the detailing of our locomotives and such so that there is a growing of that market. After all you can only expect collectors to go after this stuff so long---
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
If the limited production, preorder, get it while its hot, RTR, high priced business model is here to stay, and there is nothing on the shelves to "see", why would I not just preorder by Internet and have it show up on my door step when the boat lands?
If model BUILDING is dead, than all those little bits and pieces I once stocked in my store must not be in demand, so those companies will go out of business or go to direct marketing, if they have not done so already.
Pricing policies are crazy today - not that They are too high (although I do think some items are), they do not reflect any sense of value on the part of the manufacturers. The inflated retails and large discounts are just a game - a game that has hurt the small retailer in order to support the high volume product that was needed at the begining of the move to overseas production.
I buy lots of Bachmann - never pay any more than 60% of the retail - that use to be wholesale!
I won't/don't buy much BLI/PCM, because of the "dump it after the suckers pay near full price" pricing policies of that company.
I don't/won't buy MTH for the same reason I dont/won't buy Marklin/Trix - no mater how good some items are/might be, I really don't want to support the "conversion" of the HO portion of the hobby into a RTR highrail like hobby of collecting toys. I'm interested in building models and building a model railroad - AND, both these companies, in one way or another, thumb their noses at established standards in the MODEL BUILDING portion of the hobby. With MTH its control systems and crude detail to make it "handling friendly", with Trix its similar, plus toy coupler mounting - they can keep their toy trains.
So, I think the industry has done this to themselves and the culture is changing - AND, model railroading as I understand it may be dieing. But, I have no simpathy for stores that can't make it or manufacturers who can't figure out what to sell or how to sell it. Let them go, if there is a market left, someone will fill it - retail or manufacturing.
One other point - I may be dead wrong, but I can't help but think all this duplication of product has hurt manufaturers and retailers. How many Big Boys?, K4's?, GS4's?, FEF's?, F7's?, etc, etc, is there a market for? All this has done is divide up exsisting market demand, it has not created ONE new customer or broadened the hobby in any way. 15 companies can make Big Boy's, I don't have one and I'm not buying one - regardless of features, detail or price.
At this point, if they want my money, they need to make sometihng NEW - never before offered, that fits my layout scheme.
Collectors vs modelers - collectors are lousy customers long term, their buying habits are based on emotions and how well the stock market is doing, and weither they have gotten bored yet. Modelers, at least most of the ones I have known in 40 years, be they ultra serious or very causal, spend roughly the same hobby budget year in and year out, for decades - or LIFETIMES. So by aiming too much product at collectors, manufacturers have created a kind of saturation and colapse - like many other "collectables" markets have experianced. Mike wolf did this to O gauge, now he's aiming for HO - problem is he is not on the ground floor this time, Bachmann, Proto and BLI beat him to it and the market is nearly saturated already.
Hello CNJ sorry to here that your are losing another shop. OK Howard here is a little glimmer of hope. I seen a new Hobby lobby is going to open bye my work in Macedonia Ohio. I have never been to a hobby lobby before. So I not sure how good it will be. My lhs is in Bedford AL'S train and hobby witch is about 5 min drive from home. Then I can drive 20-45 min and fined 3 more. I just hope this hobby lobby does not but my lhs out of business. They are about 10 mile apart. Have a nice day Frank