Harry, good point. I'm referring to the scale VERY dependent, not the scale independent questions. Another good example would be how often an HO guy offers up the vaporware BLI/PCM PRR M1 4-8-2 as an N scale steam engine you can buy. Most N scalers know that thing was announced in 2004 and will never see the light of day. So what is meant to be helpful ends up wasting the poor OP's time.
Obviously things like backdrop painting, benchwork, and most weathering and scenery techniques are scale independent. But as you mentioned, giving advice is one thing, but declaring one's own technique as the One True Faith is quite another...
Modeling the Rio Grande Southern First District circa 1938-1946 in HOn3.
Good point, Dave.
- Harry
Having taken a year or so away from here myself not too long ago, I WILL say that the reason I stayed away is of all the negativity that was here.
People saying that if you don't have 60" radius (EXAGERATTED) curves, you're only playing with toys. That type of attitude, how can I say this......HMMmmmmm....... SUCKS!
This has been for the most part a great forum & I hope Kalmbach continues with it. The best thing I've seen is having someone from the ranks help moderate it
Just my 2 cents
Gordon
Brought to you by the letters C.P.R. as well as D&H!
K1a - all the way
One problem with the written word is it reads one way to the writer and it could read differently to the reader. Mark's response is a good example. It can be taken two ways. We should always give the writer the benefit of the doubt. I have read many posts by him, and maybe I've missed a few, but I wouldn't say he's rude. There are a few who have strong opinions and straight forward ways of putting information out. But they are not rude or insulting either. There is a difference in just being to the point and somewhat blunt, just answering the question, and being rude and insulting. There are a few, however, where there is no doubt. Very few, but they always seem to show up.
Maybe, just maybe, the "greats" get tired of the wannabe's also and just move on. By the way, the greats don't care how accurate you are either. If you want to be accurate that's fine, if you don't, that's fine as well. Too bad others can't find that step in being as great. Ask all of the fine modellers in this hobby if they care that I don't model the Texas and Pacific but just use their name. Ask them if they care that I have a made up scenerio and model the present to include cattle cars and passenger service by a railroad other than AMTRAK and make my world as I want. I'll bet you 99 to 100% of the "greats" don't give a rats situpon. But if I ask them a question, they'll answer without using the word "idiot" or the phrase "looks stupid". You know why? because they are the Greats. And quite frankly there are far more folks in this forum who are on their way to being the greats, if not for their modeling skills at least for their tolerance, than most others.
Also, if the new people or the inexperienced, such as myself, must research the questions we ask and do forum searches to see if what is old hat to some but new to me, has already been asked and answered, naturally there will be a decline in posts. If a new person asks for 50,000th time "N scale or HO" or "what set should I buy. DC or DCC" once a month, and he can't ask that question, that's three posts a month less. Multiply that by the amount of other posts that have been asked and there is part of the decline. I'm not suggesting just post questions to be posting questions, but think about it. Add to that the ones who are afraid to post their first, many folks cruise a forum before joining, because they see the reactions some give to questions asked.
If a post does not interest you and you don't feel it is worthy of your time, why do you give it the time to slam it? Makes no sense. Just move on to something you do like.
Todd
Central Illinoyz
In order to keep my position as Master and Supreme Ruler of the House, I don't argue with my wife.
I'm a small town boy. A product of two people from even smaller towns. I don’t talk on topic….. I just talk.
I don't frequent other forums, but there are times that these do seem a bit quiet.
There does seem to be an increase in unpleasant answers, which is too bad. Folks come here to get information about something that they have a question about. If they are like me, not really very computer literate, there can easily be many things they don't know. There are many features of these forums that I haven't a clue how to get to. (Just learned another function last week, about the time I was going to ask the same question.) Computer programs in general, I use barely a fraction of the materials available. For those who took to computers like ducks take to water (my kids) or have been to classes to learn how to use the features (my wife), more power to them.
If someone asks a question that has been asked recently or frequently, I just refer them to the thread or a search function that can help them. I am not a frequent Google user, to suggest using it is fine, just say it without a snide comment. I've repeated information, when it has been awhile since an earlier thread was posted, a little frustrating? Yes, but if I knew how to refer directly to a thread I could do a better job. Maybe their question is slightly different, the same answer may work, maybe it needs a slightly different approach to the answer.
I am thankful for the many answers I have received. I have learned from others questions. I hope my answers have helped others. We should all be in this to have fun and willing to help someone else who has a queston. I know that there are many folks with much more experience than I and I try to listen to them. However, there are also people with less experience overall, that may have dabbled in some area I have a question about, thus they may have my answer. One doesn't need to be a master modeler to have information that will help someone. Also, a master modeler may have never encountered a situation and not to bright little ole me may have his answer.
Let's all get back to having fun, asking questions, giving answers and sharing this wonderful hobby.
TMarsh....If a post does not interest you and you don't feel it is worthy of your time, why do you give it the time to slam it? Makes no sense. Just move on to something you do like.
That is probably one of the key reasons I have been posting less. Good observation.
For me it's a simple answer(s) Spring it here Honey Do list trumps model railroading every time. I've grown a custom to creature comforts like clean cloths and hot meal call me old and soft.
cowman One doesn't need to be a master modeler to have information that will help someone. Also, a master modeler may have never encountered a situation and not to bright little ole me may have his answer. Let's all get back to having fun, asking questions, giving answers and sharing this wonderful hobby.
One doesn't need to be a master modeler to have information that will help someone. Also, a master modeler may have never encountered a situation and not to bright little ole me may have his answer.
TMarshAsk them if they care that I have a made up scenerio and model the present to include cattle cars and passenger service by a railroad other than AMTRAK and make my world as I want. I'll bet you 99 to 100% of the "greats" don't give a rats situpon.
Whew! That's good to know since I was really worried about telling anybody my plan for a "What-If" layout where a number of really terrific railroads got merged together into a Congressionally-mandated pseudo public corporation slash govt agency with non-sensical routes, old and dilapidated right-of-way, second-hand motive power and rolling stock, forced to pay the pensions for every railroad man who ever lived-- AND makes a profit...
Whaddaya think? Might be interesting, no?
Of course its only a fantasy layout.... I doubt anything like that could ever exist in the real world.
John
John- You're right. 'Tis a silly concept and would never work. But like me hauling cattle on the rails, it's your railroad so why not. Besides, I don't know about you, but I haven't turned a profit with my railroad yet so maybe it'll fit right in after all!
Long thread with lots of interesting replies. I see parts of all of them. I also visit, or used, several fishing and woodworking forums. In every one of them, this same discussion has come up lately, so I don't think this is a model railroading specific phenomenon. In those forums too, the rude poster, the repetitive questions and the loss of the knowledge base have also been posed. Without dismissing the first couple, I would like to expand on the third. I have been following many forums for over ten years, some into the early 90s (what can I say, early adopter). Many forums had a handfull of key, knowledgable individuals around whom indepth discussion would take place. These folks often developed a following (on one board for example, someone saved several years of an individuals posts and the board has filed them for permanent access due to the depth of knowledge he imparted). However, for a lot of reasons, unfortunately including the last train ride, those folks eventually leave. Heck I still have fond memories of chats, discussions, agreements, and yes, even disagreements, with many friends from those boards. The same kind you would have on the front porch. Yet visit those boards today and the knowledge, the indepth discussions, the neighborliness, is missing. Replaced instead by one hit wonders, impatient kids (how often have you seen a post with nine replies, all "bumps" by the OP within six hours?), and "my way or the highway" responses.
I don't know the answer, or even if this is a problem or merely a winnowing down to the core; just wanted to throw these thoughts out there.
CNJ831I'm curious if others have noticed the very apparent decline in posts/posters across the entire spectrum of model railroad forums in the past few months?...commets? Ideas?
I have no idea whether general posting levels are down or not, or if it is down, why it is down.
But I know that my own number of posts per week is down. Why I post less? For the reasons Fred mentioned.
I got a little tired of spending time on trying to communicate with prickly semi-illiterate newbies who seemingly doesn't want to spend much of their own time or money on research, books, on formulating their posts, on exploring options or discussing alternatives, or on responding to people who post in their thread, but just want THE answer (as if there was just one way of doing things ...) to a vaguely formulated question, and want that answer RIGHT NOW (or they will start whining about not getting any help).
It is fun to go explore possible options *together* - I enjoy that, and I keep learning from it. Especially when several people get inspired by each other's ideas, and starts posting suggestions for alternate ways of doing stuff or comments pointing out weaknesses in the previous suggestion or whatever.
But I am a little burned out on trying to engage new people in conversation. I look at their posts. If their posts seems poorly organized, poorly spelled, either way too terse (like one sentence) or very long and rambling, I usually decide to give that thread a miss.
That's no tragedy - neither for me, nor for others. If the subjects being discussed is interesting to people, they will take part in the discussion. If not, they will do something else. Right now, I am working more on my layout, and enjoying spring after a long, dark and cold winter :-)
Of course, there are also a few people who seem to specialize in posting sarcastic or snippy comments. To me, these people haven't been much of a problem - they are fairly easy to interact with.
You just ignore their attitude, and see if they have some actual constructive suggestions to offer under the layer of sarcasm. Some offer sound advice along with the sarcasm, others offer only sarcasm. You quickly learn which is which.
Smile, Stein
Out of curiosity, I looked at the post tally of my favorite railroad Yahoo discussion site. Messages generally ranged from 400 to 900 postings a month, and I don't see a pattern of decline.
Mark
markpierce Out of curiosity, I looked at the post tally of my favorite railroad Yahoo discussion site. Messages generally ranged from 400 to 900 postings a month, and I don't see a pattern of decline.
Hmm - played a little with the search engine here.
For the forums (MR, Toy trains, Trains, Garden trains) as a whole, the number of posts per month were:
A year ago:Dec 1st - 31st 2008: 19397Jan 1st - 31st 2009: 22540Feb 1st - 28th 2009: 19590March 1 - 31st 2009: 20270
These days:Dec 1st - 31st 2009: 18376Jan 1st - 31st 2010: 20424Feb 1st - 28th 2010: 18539March 1 - 31st 2010: 17796
For just the Model Railroader forums (search terms: groupid:8 AND date:[20100301 TO 20100331]) the numbers were:
March 2010: 10059Feb 2010: 10730Jan 2010: 11435Dec 2009: 10407
March 2009: 11585Feb 2009: 10960Jan 2009: 13026Dec 2008: 10804
So yes - the numbers of posts are down a little for December and February, and quite a bit for January and March, compared with one year ago.
But of course - 10 000+ posts in a month in the Model Railroader forums alone is not exactly few posts - it still represents more than 300 posts a day :-)
.Smile, Stein
According to these figures, just much ado about nothing?
I also feel there is less activity in this forum with less posts, at least from those 20 + frequent posters I was familiar to see. A lot of new names, though - indicating a lot of fluctuation.
Bruce
So yes - the numbers of posts are down a little for December and February, and quite a bit for January and March, compared with one year ago.But of course - 10 000+ posts in a month in the Model Railroader forums alone is not exactly few posts - it still represents more than 300 posts a day :-)
There you go again, Stein, screwing up a perfectly good kvetch session with the facts.
And, just for giggles, having mentioned porcelain deities in an earlier post, I thought I might treat all and sundry to one of the mightiest: http://tinyurl.com/y79dv6c
$4,400+ for one of those? And y'all thought the hobby was expensive? Whatever happened to the good old scratchbuilt outhouse built by craftsmen who took pride in their work? At least this thing doesn't need DCS to operate correctly. Not unless MTH has branched into another line of business (Mike's Toilet House).
Andre
Well, sonny,
speaking as one of the Kalmbach forums elders (I joined WAY back when the forums were only about 10 days old)... urgh... gimme a second...gotta climb down off my high horse and onto my soapbox...
OK.
Having watched the Model Railroader forum nearly since Day One, I can tell you that, overall, they haven't really changed much. A bit more structure than the early days, of course, with such member-initiated "standard" features like the Diners, the Beer-thing, WPF, etc. But the discussion threads otherwise have remained astoundingly the same. Sure, the mix changes as trends in the hobby develop (like the higher incidence of threads relating to RTR items, for example), but otherwise they're mostly the same thing over and over.
When I was new on the forum, everything was interesting. But after the tenth (or so) "What scale should I choose?" I stopped looking at those. Ditto the dozenth (dozenth?) "Which DCC System should I choose?" And so on. Not that there was any less validity to them the umpteenth time they were asked, but I'd been there and done that several times. Those who asked early on were now answering, so my (and others') lack of participation in those threads was no loss.
So after being around for awhile, a lot of people develop a sense of "sameness" in the forum that results in a lack of pull to come back and see what's going on. Some don't of course, but the general result is that many of us don't visit as often or post as often when we do visit (and I was never one to "jabber-post" anyway).
With all of that, plus making a bit of a leap of logic here, a decline in forum activities in general may be indicative of a drop in new members of the hobby as a whole!
Mark P.
Website: http://www.thecbandqinwyoming.comVideos: https://www.youtube.com/user/mabrunton
Personally, when I first found the forums, I was more like a sponge jumping from topic to topic since everything was interesting. As I got more focused on what I was going to do, I started to selectively exclude uninteresting topics or topics that did not fit with what I was modeling. Now, I don't respond to the majority of topics since they seem to be the same ones over and over. The thing to remember is that we all have different levels of experience.
Also, there are other model railroad forums that have different topic sections. One is The Gauge which I find interesting. Several of the folks who comment on The Gauge are never heard from on Model Railroad Forums or Model Railroader Forums. Different forums may offer different perspectives since you hear different people.
www.the-gauge.net
larry
I am a new member to this forum, and have to say that my first post was resonded to with great results. However it took me almost three month to post, to many times I would see pepole get an A-hole type response. This kept me away for a long time and still does to some degree, now I read the forums every day but seldom post fearing that my first post was just dumb luck.
steinjrmarkpierce Out of curiosity, I looked at the post tally of my favorite railroad Yahoo discussion site. Messages generally ranged from 400 to 900 postings a month, and I don't see a pattern of decline. Hmm - played a little with the search engine here. For the forums (MR, Toy trains, Trains, Garden trains) as a whole, the number of posts per month were: A year ago:Dec 1st - 31st 2008: 19397Jan 1st - 31st 2009: 22540Feb 1st - 28th 2009: 19590March 1 - 31st 2009: 20270 These days:Dec 1st - 31st 2009: 18376Jan 1st - 31st 2010: 20424Feb 1st - 28th 2010: 18539March 1 - 31st 2010: 17796 For just the Model Railroader forums (search terms: groupid:8 AND date:[20100301 TO 20100331]) the numbers were: March 2010: 10059Feb 2010: 10730Jan 2010: 11435Dec 2009: 10407 March 2009: 11585Feb 2009: 10960Jan 2009: 13026Dec 2008: 10804 So yes - the numbers of posts are down a little for December and February, and quite a bit for January and March, compared with one year ago. But of course - 10 000+ posts in a month in the Model Railroader forums alone is not exactly few posts - it still represents more than 300 posts a day :-) .Smile, Stein
Actually, in looking over your numbers, it would seem that the number of posts *overall* (for all forums / scales / etc) is slightly down some. While the number of posts for just the Model Railroader are slightly up some. Though neither fluxuation is large enough to be of signficance and is well within the "noise" range and thus can be disregarded. It would seem that the numbers are holding steady.
I am surprised that this thread did not run amuck and turn into a flame war and got locked- YET! Threads like this tend to have that happen.
I will say I am on a few other forums-both MRR ones and other topic forums, so I speak from "wisdom" of both. The other forums also seem to be in decline, but here are a few things to consider:
* I question whether there really is a reduction in posts OR is it that there is a reduction in interesting posts to the reader that they will entertain? If you sign on and see 5 threads of redundant questions, 3 that don't appear from the title to be interesting enough to look at, then find 2 that really appeal to the reader may seem like there is a drop off in postings. The numbers presented can show anything form a drop off to an increase to varying psotings.
* I returned to the hobby a few years ago and got on this forum basically as a newbie greenhorn. As such, today's world is far different than it was when I as a teen played model RR. Everything was new to me again and I had a voracious appetite for knowledge to absorb! I also wanted to buy half of eveything I saw at every LHS and 1/20th of what I saw at online vendors! I also wanted {and had never had} HO. so HO was new to me! DCC? what was that? Decoders? SOund locomotives? Trees made out of furnace filters? WHat happend to sponges? Steam or diesel? Specified-stick-to-it-only era? My oh MY! Such questions, such answers, such info on this forum! I ate it up and eagerly read almost every post! And I am sure asked some "dumb"ones too!
* Any veteran {who simply has forgotten and is not excatly "wrong"} of these forums needs to understand about three things at least and maybe more about newbies:
1} to any newbie their question is a pressing issue on their mind and the most important thing to them, and yes,may be redundant ad-nausia to us more veterans; or it could seem so rediculous only a 4th grader would post it {and maybe did}. Example":"should I paint my train board brown for dirt or green for grass?" That is an example of a post I'd rather not entertain, but being sensitive to the newbie may answer.
2} Newbies, even those returning to the hobby after 25-30 years are totally unfamiliar with today's MRRing as I mention my thoughts/feelings above. SO a redundant question of "which DCC to buy" or "DC or DCC" is all NEW info to them. WE should carefully advise them, not discourage them.
3} Newbies want to learn, and we should teach and gently guide them, not lambast or act snooty to them. No 1st year Dr, really wants to talk to a first year medical student unless they are teaching tehm. Most of you have had or have small children. think about the newbie as a small child learning, you gently guide and teach them, not beat them to death because they can't tell time yet. Again we should carefully advise and not discourage.
4} many newbies are unaware of the sideline Search feature our forum has, don't quite know how to use it, or dont quite know what key words to type in OR may get overwhelmed with the 10,367.8 threads that pop up on the subject matter and find it easier to ask as a clean slate.
* Even for veterans, amongst the veterans, they will appear to be snooty to each other sometimes in the way of "my way is the best and you should do it my way and my way only". I've seen THAT happen here. "MY DCC system is the best there is" Or "It's Only DC the way to go". A veteran who was on DC and wants to change to DCC will become that newbie all over again wanting new input from fellow veteran users of DCC. I use the BachmanEZ Command Dcc system, many will put me down for that, but I don't have $500 to spend on a "perfect system" other DCC veterans may suggest. The BEZC works for what I need, for now. When I want to upgrade I will want to know what is the best system again. ANd maybe I'll ask the "dumb questions" of the veteran users again? {Except that now I have been here long enough I know I can ask Jeffrey W. or cudaken about their upgrades. They both used the BEZC and upgraded to other systems- I can go directly to them to ask questions-and not bother others. These two were in my boat, and have now moved to another ship I may want to jump on {and hopefully will offer advise, not discourgement.}
* Everyone must realize everyone here has different skill levels, different abilities and each has their own opinion, right or wrong agreeable or disagreeable. This isn't rocket science- no one way is the perfect way to make and send off a rocket witht the right amount of and precise mixture fuel to send it off.
* Perhaps to help eliminate the redundant questions issues our esteemed hosts could create a "FAQ" page that will tell the newbies where to find threads on their redundant questions.
* WE must all remember this forum is cheap, real cheap, so cheap you'd think it was a baby chick it cheaps so much....it's FREE!!!!! So some complaints should never arise unless you want to start paying for it, or want to start your own forum.
* I think the "social networking sites" facebook, myspace, twitter, blogs etc take some away form standard forums like this. I belong to none of those and don't ever expect to, but more an more companies are starting facebook pages and forcing people to go there to their to their page to get any info that could have been regularly hosted on a google search. I hate being forced to do so. what happend to regular old websites full of info? I don't own a smart phone nor do I want one ,but I may be forced into it.
* The economy is down. Many out of job/seekers are spending more time online or at the local employment hall looking for a job. WHen there is no money coming in, MRR forums are the last thing on their mind, especially since with unemployment comes zero dollars for a hobby. Hobbies always come from discretionary income and when it vanishes, so do the $ for hobby.
* And YES, spring time is here at last! People start doing outdoor chores and hobbies and perhaps let MRR lapse a bit. I have in my tenure here noted every summer there seem to be fewer postings cause people are outside, off on vacation, or other and not online as much. Come fall, there seems to be a surge of postings or returning members here chatting again.
* Saying "well do a search on it" or "do a google search" is and easy cop-out. It may seem self evident that those two features could save a lot of time and relieve the answerer of the question some breath, but that is still not the end all to be all either. If "do a google search" gave all the answers, then there would be no reason for this forum at all! Also back whenthe IBM PC came out the IBM'ers had a phrase "GIGO". Garbage In, Garbage Out. NOt everything that appears under a google seach is always accurate either. Like wise nor woulf the search engine here for the forums threads provide the exact right answer.
Just a few of my thoughts. SOme repetitious agreeing with what has been said already. SOme new thoughts. SOme just Opinions-mine. ANd maybe there are some good points here to consider. For others they will skim read this and move on.
-G .
Just my thoughts, ideas, opinions and experiences. Others may vary.
HO and N Scale.
After long and careful thought, they have convinced me. I have come to the conclusion that they are right. The aliens did it.
jwhitten the number of posts for just the Model Railroader are slightly up some
Only if you assume that 2009 came after 2010 for the MR forums :-)
I still check the forum every morning. As a matter of fact, I have the "General Model Railroad" and the "Layout Building" forums in my home pages. It is STILL a good source of information for me. Not to mention, I don't really get a lot of negative feedback from the "experts" in my posts, and what I DO get, I can ignore.
Marlon
See pictures of the Clinton-Golden Valley RR
Judging by the fact that this thread generated six pages of posts in so lttle time, and that the 'frequent posters' list (visible from the overall 'trains forums' home page, but not the 'model railroader forums' sub-home) lists (at the moment) people with nine or more posts in the past 24 hours, interest can't have declined too much.
Personally, I think the major damage was done with the forum update a few years back which took forever and Wednesday to get the archives on-line. Many people who wanted to reference past threads got disgusted and left. That problem has since been solved, but a lot of the departed never returned.
A lot of our frequent posters of the past (most noticeably Spacemouse) have simply vanished. Others (Dave Vollmer?) have shifted to other, more specialized forums. I don't doubt that the economy has taken its toll - people in default on their mortgages and wondering about the source of the next can of beans are unlikely to maintain their internet connections.
I also agree that there's a lot of, "Been there, done that," effect, along with a few, "My way, or the highway," attitudes which are discouraging to newcomers. Having lived long enough to develop some pretty strong personal opinions and a fair degree of self-confidence, I can laugh at that. Others may be more sensitive.
As for me, I'll still drop by, read the forums and comment when I feel comment is appropriate. If there are more or fewer people around, well, that's the way it is...
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
My interest in this and other Internet forums ebbs and flows. A lot of it has to do with how busy I am at any given time. I also don't try to jump into every topic unless I really feel I have something to offer.
As to rudeness, lack of civility or whatever you choose to call it, I find that Internet forums are much like driving on the freeway. Both have value and both have a downside. On the freeway, you have to put up with drivers who cut you off, don't signal their intentions, glare at you and honk the horn if they think you are in their way, etc. On the Internet you get the trolls, the know-it-alls and the proxy moderators. Some forums are worse than others, but like the freeway, they all have their bad actors.
John Timm
ltheis I am a new member to this forum, and have to say that my first post was resonded to with great results. However it took me almost three month to post, to many times I would see pepole get an A-hole type response. This kept me away for a long time and still does to some degree, now I read the forums every day but seldom post fearing that my first post was just dumb luck.
I remember when I was new to forums..It wasn't easy..I was jump on several times for spelling,"wrong" information-actually my information went against the flow (especially that of cure all DCC)and telling the other side of the picture.
However,
I learn to have tough skin and a gentle tongue-er ah,keyboard..
Step right up and have your say..Somebody will listen and may heed your advice.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
richg1998andrechapelonThe problem I see as others have alluded to is the stark disappearance of great modelers on this forum. For instance, What ever happened to Joe Fugate? He founded his own magazine. Andre Do a Google search for Joe Fugate magazineRich
andrechapelonThe problem I see as others have alluded to is the stark disappearance of great modelers on this forum. For instance, What ever happened to Joe Fugate? He founded his own magazine. Andre
The problem I see as others have alluded to is the stark disappearance of great modelers on this forum. For instance, What ever happened to Joe Fugate?
He founded his own magazine.
Do a Google search for Joe Fugate magazine
Rich
Many modelers are not aware that Joe Fugate is in competition with Kalmbach now. That is why any link put in here disappears.
If you ever fall over in public, pick yourself up and say “sorry it’s been a while since I inhabited a body.” And just walk away.
steinjrjwhitten the number of posts for just the Model Railroader are slightly up some Only if you assume that 2009 came after 2010 for the MR forums :-) Smile, Stein
I may have misread the dates