Declining interest in web forums?

[richg1998]

 I belong to twenty one forums on three different subjects and all have slowed down. Really, this is much ado about nothing. Good fodder for Rants though.

Rich

[selector]

pastorbob

The question I have for the moderators is why the posting from Al Mayo under his newest assumed title is still on the forum?  It has had 165 hits, but no takers, but still there.  Personally I think it is disgusting.

Bob

Bob, this has been going on ever since the change-over a last weekend.  We are working on the problem, or Wade is, but although we ban the person and prevent regular members from seeing any of the person's posts, for some reason the heading still shows.  Not much any mod can do about it except to apprise the Powers That Be.  Long since done.

-Crandell

[don7]

steinjr

don7

The Zealot site is just hanging on

 Special case - most members of the Model Railroading part of Zealot left in a pretty massive protest againt the new owner's policies, and started a new web forum (the-gauge.net), which is doing quite well.

Smile,
Stein

 

Thank you for that information. I was unaware of the protest.

[AntonioFP45]

El-Capitan,

I mentioned this on another thread, but you're a very good example of a person that can make well apprecited contributions.  I would most certainly be interested in seeing scratchbuilding work and learning about your techniques.  With this rough economy and the price of structures kits and rolling stock climbing, scratchbuilding is not going to be extinct anytime soon. 

 If you have a digital camera and have some work samples to show, please start a thread, post those photos and tell us about your work. You can potentially make an impact on someone who was "thinking about it" but may decide to try it because of your info. 

[pastorbob]

The question I have for the moderators is why the posting from Al Mayo under his newest assumed title is still on the forum?  It has had 165 hits, but no takers, but still there.  Personally I think it is disgusting.

Bob

[richg1998]

steinjr

don7

The Zealot site is just hanging on

 Special case - most members of the Model Railroading part of Zealot left in a pretty massive protest againt the new owner's policies, and started a new web forum (the-gauge.net), which is doing quite well.

Smile,
Stein

 

I think the Zealot site is run by a geezer who jealously guards his site. I made mention of the Bachmann Shay gear solution and the site owner banned my IP connection for over a month to "punish" me. I could not even read the messages there. All I wanted to do is contribute to the hobby. I just dropped his site.

I belong to the Bachmann site and it seems to be a lot of children who come and go.

But again, it is the spring weather and stuff does happen or in this case, does not happen and there is nothing we can do about it.

It appears, more are showing up at the Fugate site that have been here and may still be watching here but not saying anything.

 Rich

[Scarpia]

 

jwhitten

I think that's because an open site like this one can be considered as much a "watering hole" as anything else. People come here to be social, to chat, to see and be seen, to gain information, to give information, to exchange thoughts, to pick up tips, make contacts, buy & sell stuff (not specifically on this forum), make friends ( & sometimes enemies :-) , really the list is sorta endless. Its a marketplace of ideas and personalities. I am not suprised at all at the number of social events that take place here-- although I was a little amused with "Elliot's Diner" when I first checked it out. But hey, whatever floats yer boat, right? Who am I to say anything, I play with little trains too And there's not a thing in the world wrong with having some imagination. Indeed, I wish it were a more universal trait!

Perhaps, but in my opinion, the great irony here is that a lot of posters are quick to slam facebook, myspace, and other social networking sites when it's convenient, and than on the other hand seem to use the General Discussion as some kind of surrogate for what amounts to be the same purpose.

You're correct that what ever floats your boat is the way to go - I didn't say that it should change, just pointing out why I don't post here much, or why I found it more disappointing than rewarding. 

Folks are clearly interested in those topics, the proofs in the pudding. Me, when I come here, to the Model Railroader Forums, I'm interested in Model Railroading.

[jwhitten]

Texas Zepher

Why is it a topic like this or beer barn, diner, or music to model by, can get pages and pages of response while a serious model railroading discussion seldom gets beyond two pages before it dies or turns into a flame war.

 

 

People like to talk. That's pretty much all there is to it. We're social creatures. Its deeply embedded into our natures to seek each other out, share opinions and ideas, and to establish a "norm" and then work to either conform to it or rebel from it. When we enter this site we don't leave our regular selves at the door, we bring that in right along with the interest in trains. And while the interest in trains and model railroading is the draw that brings us together, when we're actually here, we start finding out other stuff about each other and expanding our relationships / social interactions with each other-- in other words, while model railroading might be the focus, after awhile a community emerges. And like any other community it has leaders and followers, contributors and hangers-on, and everybody inbetween.

As for why discussions turn into flame wars-- well, I think it has to do with both the topic and what we know or think we know about it. I've been studying this for awhile now on a number of different (types of) sites. Whenever a topic arises that is "generic", people can contribute and converse with relative civility because nobody can really have "the right answer"-- at least not really to a substantial degree (oddballs and odd opinions not counted). But when the topic is more personal or "hot-button", things get a little more heated-up because people have strong attachments to their opinions and beliefs. And sometimes its hard to hear other people's thoughts without somehow reading into it that its a personal attack on their own beliefs. Even if its not or wasn't-- or sometimes it might appear to be due to a bad selection of words, people still get a little nervous talking about personal or "hot-button" topics. And inevitably, someone tosses a bomb-- drops the proverbial glove, as it were-- and someone else goes for the challenge-- takes the bait-- and a fight (heated discussion) breaks out. And as I have seen happen over and over more times than I wish to relate-- as soon as the "logical" and "sociable" arguments are exhausted, someone with a "lesser degree of finesse in the subject" will inevitably resort to attacking the messenger (other participants) personally.

Occasionally its the result of "Trolls", which are people who seem to take delight in creating "hot-topic" situations and then sitting back and watching the fireworks ensue. And why not really? That seems like it could be as entertaining a hobby as anything else. But it sure does put a damper on things and strains relationships and shuts down conversations pretty quick. Once the personal attacks come out, the argument is pretty much over-- nothing left but the petty, and the potential for hurt feelings. I think the whole situation is predicated on a very deeply ingrained notion that each of us, from our own point of views and perspectives, needs to be "right"-- by which I mean to see and view ourselves as "right within our own worlds"-- in order to function as individuals. And though the truth is that we cannot always be "right" about everything, some people have a harder time than others accepting when they're "wrong" (i.e., not "right") and taking their lumps (learning something) gracefully. And so instead of simply acknowledging that they were "not right", they instead resort to name-calling or other tactics designed to disguise and/or mis-direct the "argument".

Good ole' human nature at work.

 

John

[jwhitten]

Scarpia

For what little it's worth, I don't post or read much here due that the non-modeling, non-model railroading topics seem to heavily outweigh the modeling and model railroading ones, at least in member's interests (as indicated by number of responses).

 

 

I think that's because an open site like this one can be considered as much a "watering hole" as anything else. People come here to be social, to chat, to see and be seen, to gain information, to give information, to exchange thoughts, to pick up tips, make contacts, buy & sell stuff (not specifically on this forum), make friends ( & sometimes enemies :-) , really the list is sorta endless. Its a marketplace of ideas and personalities. I am not suprised at all at the number of social events that take place here-- although I was a little amused with "Elliot's Diner" when I first checked it out. But hey, whatever floats yer boat, right? Who am I to say anything, I play with little trains too And there's not a thing in the world wrong with having some imagination. Indeed, I wish it were a more universal trait!

 

John

 

[jwhitten]

el-capitan

 

1. My interest lie with kit building, scratchbulding and kitbashing. It seems there are few on here that share this, or at least post topics about it.

 

 

El-Capitan-

I am very interested in scratchbuilding and kitbashing, but I am afraid I don't know a lot about it first-hand (yet). I am a long-time fan of (the late) Art Curren and (the likewise late) Earl Smallshaw and love looking through old issues at their many scratchbuilding and kitbashing articles.

I personally welcome the "RTR Era" because now I have a *choice* what I want to do-- whether I want to make something or just buy it. Or what my actual plan is-- to buy stuff now and, as my skills improve, start rebuilding it later from scratch or kitbashing.

For me, its most important to get a railroad up and running "now" (as soon as I can make it) than to worry about most specific details other than good benchwork and track. But, that said, I have been reading voraciously and soaking up everything I can get my hands on and learning about the various aspects of the hobby.

My goal is to build it first-- get it up and running, and then work on improving it. 

If you post interesting stuff about scratchbuilding and kitbashing, I'll be happy to read about it and participate in the discussions.

 

John

[steinjr]

don7

The Zealot site is just hanging on

 Special case - most members of the Model Railroading part of Zealot left in a pretty massive protest againt the new owner's policies, and started a new web forum (the-gauge.net), which is doing quite well.

Smile,
Stein

 

[Texas Zepher]

Scarpia

I don't post or read much here due that the non-modeling, non-model railroading topics seem to heavily outweigh the modeling and model railroading ones, at least in member's interests (as indicated by number of responses).

Yea, someone else said it.   Why is it a topic like this or beer barn, diner, or music to model by, can get pages and pages of response while a serious model railroading discussion seldom gets beyond two pages before it dies or turns into a flame war.

I personally find it disappointing to see the Model Railroading topic appear secondary sometimes.

just for emphasis - Yea, someone else said it!

[HarryHotspur]

This site seems to be more active lately than other MRR sites I checked out.  I think one of the reasons for the popularity of this site is its versatility.  It doesn't impose a "one size fits all" mentality.

Personally, I enjoy the posts about new techniques and products. Plus, a variety of styles seems to be well appreciated.  For example, the styles of people like John Allen, John Olson, and Malcolm Furlow lured me back into the hobby.  I only wish I had their creative talents.  On the other hand, their styles seem less highly regarded on some other sites.

Just my opinion.

[potlatcher]

One other possible reason for the decline in forum participation is the increased policing of topics on this discussion board.  Normally, policing is good; making sure the trolls don't take over and promoting civility among discussion participants.

However, I remember that some of the most interesting topics on the discussion board in years past were also those topics that very often led to name-calling among participants and bad mouthing of this forum's gracious host or other innocent bystanders.  In most cases, it was only a few individuals who caused most of the problems - most of the participants made civil and pertinent comments.  But the forums' moderators have found that it's just easier to shut down the topic rather than deal with the miscreants.

I'm not blaming the moderators for their actions, but I can't help but wonder if the reduced number of interesting, challenging and/or thought-provoking topics is now resulting in reduced numbers of interested participants.

I guess it's just like network television - provocative programming always draws the most viewers.

Just a thought.

Tom

[don7]

I have noticed that some of the other model railroad boards are experiencing far worse declines in the number of postings for some time now.

The Zealot site is just hanging on and the Bachmann site is not faring well lately.

It seems that a relativley small number of posters have now taken over there and seem to more or less control the site. 

[Scarpia]

For what little it's worth, I don't post or read much here due that the non-modeling, non-model railroading topics seem to heavily outweigh the modeling and model railroading ones, at least in member's interests (as indicated by number of responses).

There was one recently on property values in different regions in the US that racked up more pages in response than the weekly pictures post.  While I realize that a lot of topics do not need 4 pages of replies to answer the question posed, I personally find it disappointing to see the Model Railroading topic appear secondary sometimes.

So for my purposes, I come here to look at Model Railroading topics. I find that having to separate MR topics from those that aren't as pertinent, reduces my enjoyment of the forum.

Just one person's opinion.

[el-capitan]

There are a few reasons that I dont post as much anymore.

1. My interest lie with kit building, scratchbulding and kitbashing. It seems there are few on here that share this, or at least post topics about it. Posts such as "HO Scale Tower 55 Locomotives" and "Walthers ADM Grain Elevator" hold zero interest for me. Plus the fact that I am in O scale further distances me from being interested. It seem to me that 99% of the threads here are related to RTR, DCC and HO. Aside from social discussion threads such as this.

2. I hate being nitpicked. I speak very often in broad generalities and in a normal conversation, there is no problem with me communicating to others my oppinion or facts. On these forums however.......   I feel like I need an attorney to read over each post before posting. For instance, I once posted "railroads never ran single F-units backward." Obviously and exageration, how else would they move in and out of the engine house. Out came a stream of people to tell me about an instance here, or an instance there were they did. Apparently what I should have put was "Most major carrier railroads in the united states and during normal freight operations would usually not run F-units backward unless there was an unusual circumstance that warranted them doing so because there was no legitimate alternative to doing so." One person (you know who you are) told me I was wrong because he saw it on a tourist railroad once...... sigh.

 

[MAbruce]

I've been around here as long as anyone like CNJ.  I've seen it all - twenty times over.  There have been active periods and quiet periods.  I tend to agree we're in one of the quieter periods. 

The nastiness has always been with us.  In fact I'd say there has been much worse nastiness in the past.  I remember well a certain trouble-maker who got kicked off the board and kept coming back under new ID's to start fires - and boy did he have an easy time sucking people into countless flame-wars.

A lot of interesting reasons have been given for the recent decline.  For me personally, I've been there and done that so many times that it's hard to find a topic that isn't a rehash of something that was beaten to death many times over in the past.

I also tend to ignore the controversial topics, and usually report anything I see that's over the line to the moderators rather than to jump into the fray.  Yeah, I'm usually the tattle-tale that kills the fun.  

       

 

[jwhitten]

steinjr

jwhitten

the number of posts for just the Model Railroader are slightly up some

 

 Only if you assume that 2009 came after 2010 for the MR forums :-)

Smile,
Stein

 

 

I may have misread the dates

 

[richg1998]

richg1998

andrechapelon

The problem I see as others have alluded to is the stark disappearance of great modelers on this forum. For instance, What ever happened to Joe Fugate?

He founded his own magazine.

Andre

 

Do a Google search for Joe Fugate magazine

Rich

 

Many modelers are not aware that Joe Fugate is in competition with Kalmbach now. That is why any link put in here disappears.

Rich

[BRAKIE]

ltheis

I am a new member to this forum, and have to say that my first post was resonded to with great results. However it took me almost three month to post, to many times I would see pepole get an A-hole type response. This kept me away for a long time and still does to some degree, now I read the forums every day but seldom post fearing that my first post was just dumb luck.

I remember when I was new to forums..It wasn't easy..I was jump on several times for spelling,"wrong" information-actually my information went against the flow  (especially that of cure all  DCC)and telling the other side of the picture.

However,

I learn to have tough skin and a gentle tongue-er ah,keyboard..

Step right up and have your say..Somebody will listen and may heed your advice.

[desertdog]

My interest in this and other Internet forums ebbs and flows.  A lot of it has to do with how busy I am at any given time.  I also don't try to jump into every topic unless I really feel I have something to offer.

As to rudeness, lack of civility or whatever you choose to call it, I find that Internet forums are much like driving on the freeway.  Both have value and both have a downside.  On the freeway, you have to put up with drivers who cut you off, don't signal their intentions, glare at you and honk the horn if they think you are in their way, etc.  On the Internet you get the trolls, the know-it-alls and the proxy moderators.  Some forums are worse than others, but like the freeway, they all have their bad actors.

John Timm 

 

 

[tomikawaTT]

Judging by the fact that this thread generated six pages of posts in so lttle time, and that the 'frequent posters' list (visible from the overall 'trains forums' home page, but not the 'model railroader forums' sub-home) lists (at the moment) people with nine or more posts in the past 24 hours, interest can't have declined too much.

Personally, I think the major damage was done with the forum update a few years back which took forever and Wednesday to get the archives on-line.  Many people who wanted to reference past threads got disgusted and left.  That problem has since been solved, but a lot of the departed never returned.

A lot of our frequent posters of the past (most noticeably Spacemouse) have simply vanished.  Others (Dave Vollmer?) have shifted to other, more specialized forums.  I don't doubt that the economy has taken its toll - people in default on their mortgages and wondering about the source of the next can of beans are unlikely to maintain their internet connections.

I also agree that there's a lot of, "Been there, done that," effect, along with a few, "My way, or the highway," attitudes which are discouraging to newcomers.  Having lived long enough to develop some pretty strong personal opinions and a fair degree of self-confidence, I can laugh at that.  Others may be more sensitive.

As for me, I'll still drop by, read the forums and comment when I feel comment is appropriate.  If there are more or fewer people around, well, that's the way it is...

Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)

[Medina1128]

 I still check the forum every morning. As a matter of fact, I have the "General Model Railroad" and the "Layout Building" forums in my home pages. It is STILL a good source of information for me. Not to mention, I don't really get a lot of negative feedback from the "experts" in my posts, and what I DO get, I can ignore.

[steinjr]

jwhitten

the number of posts for just the Model Railroader are slightly up some

 

 Only if you assume that 2009 came after 2010 for the MR forums :-)

Smile,
Stein

 

[galaxy]

I am surprised that this thread did not run amuck and turn into a flame war and got locked- YET! Threads like this tend to have that happen.

I will say I am on a few other forums-both MRR ones and other topic forums, so I speak from "wisdom" of both. The other forums also seem to be in decline, but here are a few things to consider:

* I question whether there really is a reduction in posts OR is it that there is a reduction in interesting posts to the reader that they will entertain? If you sign on and see 5 threads of redundant questions, 3 that don't appear from the title to be interesting enough to look at, then find 2 that really appeal to the reader may seem like there is a drop off in postings. The numbers presented can show anything form a drop off to an increase to varying psotings.

* I returned to the hobby a few years ago and got on this forum basically as a newbie greenhorn. As such, today's world is far different than it was when I as a teen played model RR. Everything was new to me again and I had a voracious appetite for knowledge to absorb! I also wanted to buy half of eveything I saw at every LHS and 1/20th of what I saw at online vendors! I also wanted {and had never had} HO. so HO was new to me! DCC? what was that? Decoders? SOund locomotives? Trees made out of furnace filters? WHat happend to sponges? Steam or diesel? Specified-stick-to-it-only era? My oh MY! Such questions, such answers, such info on this forum! I ate it up and eagerly read almost every post! And I am sure asked some "dumb"ones too!

* Any veteran {who simply has forgotten and is not excatly "wrong"} of these forums needs to understand about three things at least and maybe more about newbies:

1} to any newbie their question is a pressing issue on their mind and the most important thing to them, and yes,may be redundant ad-nausia to us more veterans; or it could seem so rediculous only a 4th grader would post it {and maybe did}. Example":"should I paint my train board brown for dirt or green for grass?" That is an example of a post I'd rather not entertain, but being sensitive to the newbie may answer.

2} Newbies, even those returning to the hobby after 25-30 years are totally unfamiliar with today's MRRing as I mention my thoughts/feelings above. SO a redundant question of "which DCC to buy" or "DC or DCC" is all NEW info to them. WE should carefully advise them, not discourage them.

3} Newbies want to learn, and we should teach and gently guide them, not lambast or act snooty to them. No 1st year Dr, really wants to talk to a first year medical student unless they are teaching tehm. Most of you have had or have small children. think about the newbie as a small child learning, you gently guide and teach them, not beat them to death because they can't tell time yet. Again we should carefully advise and not discourage.

 4} many newbies are unaware of the sideline Search feature our forum has, don't quite know how to use it, or dont quite know what key words to type in OR may get overwhelmed with the 10,367.8 threads that pop up on the subject matter and find it easier to ask as a clean slate.

* Even for veterans, amongst the veterans, they will appear to be snooty to each other sometimes in the way of "my way is the best and you should do it my way and my way only". I've seen THAT happen here. "MY DCC system is the best there is" Or "It's Only DC the way to go". A veteran who was on DC and wants to change to DCC will become that newbie all over again wanting new input from fellow veteran users of DCC. I use the BachmanEZ Command Dcc system, many will put me down for that, but I don't have $500 to spend on a "perfect system" other DCC veterans may suggest. The BEZC works for what I need, for now. When I want to upgrade I will want to know what is the best system again. ANd maybe I'll ask the "dumb questions" of the veteran users again? {Except that now I have been here long enough I know I can ask Jeffrey W. or cudaken about their upgrades. They both used the BEZC and upgraded to other systems- I can go directly to them to ask questions-and not bother others. These two were in my boat, and have now moved to another ship I may want to jump on {and hopefully will offer advise, not discourgement.}

* Everyone must realize everyone here has different skill levels, different abilities and each has their own opinion, right or wrong agreeable or disagreeable. This isn't rocket science- no one way is the perfect way to make and send off a rocket witht the right amount of and precise mixture fuel to send it off.

* Perhaps to help eliminate the redundant questions issues our esteemed hosts could create a "FAQ" page that will tell the newbies where to find threads on their redundant questions.

* WE must all remember this forum is cheap, real cheap, so cheap you'd think it was a baby chick it cheaps so much....it's FREE!!!!! So some complaints should never arise unless you want to start paying for it, or want to start your own forum.

* I think the "social networking sites" facebook, myspace, twitter, blogs etc take some away form standard forums like this. I belong to none of those and don't ever expect to, but more an more companies are starting facebook pages and forcing people to go there to their to their page to get any info that could have been regularly hosted on  a google search. I hate being forced to do so. what happend to regular old websites full of info? I don't own a smart phone nor do I want one ,but I may be forced into it.

* The economy is down. Many out of job/seekers are spending more time online or at the local employment hall looking for a job. WHen there is no money coming in, MRR forums are the last thing on their mind, especially since with unemployment comes zero dollars for a hobby. Hobbies always come from discretionary income and when it vanishes, so do the $ for hobby.

* And YES, spring time is here at last! People start doing outdoor chores and hobbies and perhaps let MRR lapse a bit. I have in my tenure here noted every summer there seem to be fewer postings cause people are outside, off on vacation, or other and not online as much. Come fall, there seems to be a surge of postings or returning members here chatting again.

* Saying "well do a search on it" or "do a google search" is and easy cop-out. It may seem self evident that those two features could save a lot of time and relieve the answerer of the question some breath, but that is still not the end all to be all either. If "do a google search" gave all the answers, then there would be no reason for this forum at all! Also back whenthe IBM PC came out the IBM'ers had a phrase "GIGO". Garbage In, Garbage Out. NOt everything that appears under a  google seach is always accurate either. Like wise nor woulf the search engine here for the forums threads provide the exact right answer.

Just a few of my thoughts. SOme repetitious agreeing with what has been said already. SOme new thoughts. SOme just Opinions-mine. ANd maybe there are some good points here to consider. For others they will skim read this and move on.

[jwhitten]

steinjr

markpierce

Out of curiosity, I looked at the post tally of my favorite railroad Yahoo discussion site.  Messages generally ranged from 400 to 900 postings a month, and I don't see a pattern of decline.

Hmm - played a little with the search engine here.

For the forums (MR, Toy trains, Trains, Garden trains) as a whole, the number of posts per month were:

A year ago:
Dec 1st - 31st 2008: 19397
Jan 1st - 31st 2009:  22540
Feb 1st - 28th 2009: 19590
March 1 - 31st 2009: 20270

These days:
Dec 1st - 31st 2009: 18376
Jan 1st - 31st 2010:  20424
Feb 1st - 28th 2010: 18539
March 1 - 31st 2010: 17796

For just the Model Railroader forums (search terms: groupid:8 AND date:[20100301 TO 20100331]) the numbers were:

March 2010: 10059
Feb 2010: 10730
Jan 2010: 11435
Dec 2009: 10407

March 2009: 11585
Feb 2009: 10960
Jan 2009: 13026
Dec 2008: 10804

 So yes - the numbers of posts are down a little for December and February, and quite a bit for January and March, compared with one year ago.

 But of course - 10 000+ posts in a month in the Model Railroader forums alone is not exactly few posts - it still represents more than 300 posts a day :-)

.Smile,
 Stein

 

 

 

Actually, in looking over your numbers, it would seem that the number of posts *overall* (for all forums / scales / etc) is slightly down some. While the number of posts for just the Model Railroader are slightly up some. Though neither fluxuation is large enough to be of signficance and is well within the "noise" range and thus can be disregarded. It would seem that the numbers are holding steady.

[ltheis]

I am a new member to this forum, and have to say that my first post was resonded to with great results. However it took me almost three month to post, to many times I would see pepole get an A-hole type response. This kept me away for a long time and still does to some degree, now I read the forums every day but seldom post fearing that my first post was just dumb luck.

[camaro]

Personally, when I first found the forums, I was more like a sponge jumping from topic to topic since everything was interesting.  As I got more focused on what I was going to do, I started  to selectively exclude uninteresting topics or topics that did not fit with what I was modeling.  Now, I don't respond to the majority of topics since they seem to be the same ones over and over.   The thing to remember is that we all have different levels of experience.

Also, there are other model railroad forums that have different topic sections. One is The Gauge which I find interesting.  Several of the folks who comment on The Gauge are never heard from on Model Railroad Forums or Model Railroader Forums.  Different forums may offer different perspectives since you hear different people.

 www.the-gauge.net

 

larry