I have found this forum very helpful and for some new to the hobby that has been a great help but here is an example from another thread that if I was the response I got as a newbie I would said F You to the forum and never come back
"There is a very simple solution to your problem. Order the missing magazines from Kalmbach. This is called a "back issue."
It is people like this with their snotty that ruins it for people.. and it is not just this forum, it is in forums everywhere.. Just because some has not been modeling for 30 years does should not make them the center of ridicule
First, I have to agree with Pastor Bob. And to be even more specific:
fwrightCause #2: Departure of the master model railroaders from many forums, and replacement with RTR folks. The beginners all ask the same layout building questions, or RTR quality questions. Very seldom are there any threads on model building, whether kits or scratch - Darth Santa Fe being a great exception.
Every time I have posted a new thread with modeling information, or responded to a question with my results of doing this for 40 years, most of the feedback I received has been negative, OR there has been no interest in the topic at all.
It seems that expressing any sort of alternative view that is outside the "mainstream" makes one a sniper, troll or whatever in the eyes of many.
People should be polite, but discussion involves different opinions, otherwise there is not much to talk about.
I have been called all sorts of names in my short membership on here because I don't use DCC, don't like onboard sound in small scales, think signaling is very important if modeling a class I line, I think selective compression of rolling stock is OK, I think curves (and layout spaces) are never "too big", I like sprung metal trucks, I don't worship brass or other high end models, etc.
I understand that not everyone agrees with me, that's fine - but there is sometimes an attitude that everyone should "go alone to get alone" - not exactly a free exchange of ideas or learning, growing kind of view in my mind. And I admit sometimes in the past I let some of these people get me too wound up.
So after being told several times by "experts" how semi scale wheelsets "always" work just fine and how my 400 freight cars with Kadee trucks equiped with Intermountain wheelsets could NOT possibly work, I don't fight that battle any more - and if some new person learns the hard way that semi scale wheelsets make all his cars rock and roll through his Atlas code 83 turnouts - oh well. The "experts" all told him how much better they were, without telling him they hand lay their track.
Or if some guy has 22" curves and wants passenger cars I don't explain the modeling upgrades I do to Athearn and Con-Cor 72' cars anymore - since it always involves comments about their lack of prototype accuracy, mostly from people not willing to build anytihng but happy to pay $50-$75 for one passenger car RTR.
So, enough examples, it seems few are really interested in modeling. So the little time I spend on here now is often discussing the state of the hobby or the hobby industry itself - also an interest since I an a business person and use to work in the hobby business.
And I find myself spending less and less time on here. A few are interested in discussing "modeling philosophies" in a civil manner, and I do enjoy those discussions. But I must say I have not "learned" much of interest and therefore my time is better spent elsewhere.
Sheldon
fwright AltonFan Other than that, I think a kind of fatigue sets in. You get tired of answering the same questions, repeating the same arguments, and fighting the same battles. Personal opinion - I think AltonFan's reason would be the primary cause. Used to be I wouldn't miss a day. Now, after a few days of intensive forum visiting, I'm tired of it and will let it go for a week with a feeling of "I've seen this all before." I can predict what a lot of frequent posters are going to say. Cause #2: Departure of the master model railroaders from many forums, and replacement with RTR folks. The beginners all ask the same layout building questions, or RTR quality questions. Very seldom are there any threads on model building, whether kits or scratch - Darth Santa Fe being a great exception. Cause #3: Plain wrong information being passed as fact. Cause #4: Folks taking offense at snippy remarks, being told to search, or just not getting the replies they wanted or expected. I don't think the economy is the cause. When I was unemployed 2007-2008, I probably spent more time on the forums. Most of us are in or seeking jobs that require some computer skills, and require some Internet work/research in the job hunt. I don't think the Internet connection is one of the 1st things a model railroader gives up when he is unemployed. My experience is that spending on models and layout will supplies will shut down first; the forums provide a way to stay active in the hobby with no money to spend. my thoughts Fred W
AltonFan Other than that, I think a kind of fatigue sets in. You get tired of answering the same questions, repeating the same arguments, and fighting the same battles.
Other than that, I think a kind of fatigue sets in. You get tired of answering the same questions, repeating the same arguments, and fighting the same battles.
Personal opinion - I think AltonFan's reason would be the primary cause. Used to be I wouldn't miss a day. Now, after a few days of intensive forum visiting, I'm tired of it and will let it go for a week with a feeling of "I've seen this all before." I can predict what a lot of frequent posters are going to say.
Cause #2: Departure of the master model railroaders from many forums, and replacement with RTR folks. The beginners all ask the same layout building questions, or RTR quality questions. Very seldom are there any threads on model building, whether kits or scratch - Darth Santa Fe being a great exception.
Cause #3: Plain wrong information being passed as fact.
Cause #4: Folks taking offense at snippy remarks, being told to search, or just not getting the replies they wanted or expected.
I don't think the economy is the cause. When I was unemployed 2007-2008, I probably spent more time on the forums. Most of us are in or seeking jobs that require some computer skills, and require some Internet work/research in the job hunt. I don't think the Internet connection is one of the 1st things a model railroader gives up when he is unemployed. My experience is that spending on models and layout will supplies will shut down first; the forums provide a way to stay active in the hobby with no money to spend.
my thoughts
Fred W
Well put Fred! The slow down in the economy may put a crimp in someone's purchases of supplies and materials for the hobby but it should cause someone to stop participating in forums, especially free ones like this one.
Hi!
I suspect a portion of what may be happening is the usual "spring is here, lets go outside and play" scenario that we see every year - particularly (IMHO) with those MRs who live in places where winter means cold and snow.
Is there really a drop off from year to year? I don't know, but believe that the folks running this website could quantify each years postings, OPs, members, etc., etc. and give some valid stats.
For what its worth........
Mobilman44
ENJOY !
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
Here is my opinion as I see it.
I don't think the economy accounts for the bulk. Many posters here do not have a MRR or any items. They do have plans and dreams and conversation is not effected by the economy.
Repetitiveness could account for some, I know I am letting my car magazine lapse because the content is repetitive in that though there are new systems out there, you can only read about rebuilding your first engine or painting your first car so many times before you say, why am I still getting this. In the magazines defense, and all magazines for that matter, they have to appeal to new readers as well as old. But in a free forum that could have an effect but I don't think widespread.
One of the main reasons is I do believe, is they get tired of the aforementioned rude and better than thou posters. The ones that have been mentioned that don't just offer suggestions but state it as though you are stupid because you don't do it their way. The ones who instead of just keeping their mouth shut have to respond as if it is a great chore to skip a post and they must read and respond to every question even if it hasn't been researched. Ever think some people consider forums a research tool? What better way to find info than from people who do it. 57 different ways to make a road on the internet. Which one do you recommend? Answer. "I figured it out you should at least try it yourself before asking a question. I went to great lengths to figure out what works best for me, you should too instead of taking my expense and experience for free." OK. Why would I come back. Some get tired of getting those types of comments and reading them as well. If my LHS was rude, I wouldn't go there I'd go somewhere else. If it was rude also, I'd buy from the internet. Simple. You have the right to talk that way, I have the right to not listen.
The other main reason I believe is simply weather related. It's getting nice out in many parts of the world and inside activities such as the forums are taking back seat. Just like the railroads for many.
I don't think the forums are in danger because of the drop off. When the spring chores are done and the blazing heat of summer sets in, the activity will pick up a bit until the weather cools for fall activities and preparations for winter. Then, back inside again.
Just my opinion. Yours, of course, will vary but shouldn't, or I will rake you over the coals.
Todd
Central Illinoyz
In order to keep my position as Master and Supreme Ruler of the House, I don't argue with my wife.
I'm a small town boy. A product of two people from even smaller towns. I don’t talk on topic….. I just talk.
I think dilution is a big factor. There are so many forums, social networks like facebook, blogs, personal sites, etc. (and more coming all the time) that I think you just get fewer people on each one while overall the participation is the same. And many folks have interests besides model railroading and there are more of those places to visit.
Early on I made a decision to only participate in one general forum since I really don't have time for more. I belong to 4 specialty Yahoo groups to cover S scale, S Helper products, NCE DCC, and Ma&Pa RR, but these are much lower activity rate than here. From time to time I check other forums. If I ever find one I like more than here, then my participation level here will decline even though my time on line remains the same.
Enjoy
Paul
These forums are a valuable resource for newbies. If I didn't get help from here, I would be lost as a chicken crossing the road.
But I do agree about rude people, I know several of my newbie questions created quit a contraversy. I take it all in stride, and I remember I came here to get help and understand some people have strong viewpoints.
Wow, this thread sure got some attention! Where all you people been? LOL
Michael
CEO- Mile-HI-RailroadPrototype: D&RGW Moffat Line 1989
I also have noticed a real shift in the direction of the hobby. I had stopped posting building logs for the simple lack of interest, it seams to me that only a few care anymore about interesting kitbashing, Now it all about open-the-box-and-put-it-on-the-track mentality taking over. Not many have the patience anymore for actual modeling. This is based on participation here, on the GR forum (which is veery slow now) and a couple other large scale forums including one overseas.
Last year I had to remove my large permanent layout and have since been building a much much much smaller mobile layout and have been in the process of downsizing my roster from 70 down to 40 and eventually down to around 20ish items. The layout dismantling really had a negative impact on my enthusiasm at the time. I have also stopped building kitbashes for the time being until I get rid of the stuff that no longer fits my current direction, so between the roster downsizing and the layout rebuild I simply havent had anything to post about. I dont post anything here anymore as it would be of little interest being not much more than a glorified Micro-layout, and would likely be deemed 'boring' by some here. So I toil in happy solitude.
I would have thought the economy would if anything, have brought more people into the hobby as more people look for things to do at home as a family and dont require a $10K motor vehicle for each family member to participate with. I've read that the hobby has grown during the recession but forum participation has definelty dropped off across all forums, maybe their too busy twitting each other on Facetube or something.
Have fun with your trains
ATLANTIC CENTRAL First, I have to agree with Pastor Bob. And to be even more specific: fwrightCause #2: Departure of the master model railroaders from many forums, and replacement with RTR folks. The beginners all ask the same layout building questions, or RTR quality questions. Very seldom are there any threads on model building, whether kits or scratch - Darth Santa Fe being a great exception. Every time I have posted a new thread with modeling information, or responded to a question with my results of doing this for 40 years, most of the feedback I received has been negative, OR there has been no interest in the topic at all. It seems that expressing any sort of alternative view that is outside the "mainstream" makes one a sniper, troll or whatever in the eyes of many. I have been called all sorts of names in my short membership on here because I don't use DCC, don't like onboard sound in small scales, think signaling is very important if modeling a class I line, I think selective compression of rolling stock is OK, I think curves (and layout spaces) are never "too big", I like sprung metal trucks, I don't worship brass or other high end models, etc. Sheldon
Sheldon,I can relate to your views..As you and others know I am a very basic modeler that goes against the main stream of DCC/Sound and 110% accuracy is a must for modeling and feel that model railroading is still fun in its basic form.You and others know my feelings toward "experts" especially how they love to complicate the simple and overstate the obvious.
Like you I have recieve vile e-mails because of my views..
You want to find the master modelers? They're in SIGs or can be found on the RailRoad Forum and not on common forums because in some cases the "expert wannabes" drives them off..
Of course there is a few here as well.You see their modeling every weekend.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Swayin A troll or two will run off a newbie in a hurry
When I first joined all most 4 years ago I asked if being new was OK? I had tried a few other sites and was pretty much ignored or brushed off. (guess they where smarter than people here)
Far as it being slower lately I think springs and slower sales this last holiday season has a lot to do with it. More with it being Spring. Some areas had a pretty nasty winter.
Cuda Ken
I hate Rust
vsmith..maybe their too busy twitting each other on Facetube or something.
..maybe their too busy twitting each other on Facetube or something.
Funny quote of the day! I'm still laughing!
I have noticed it too. This forum still seems pretty active, but the Atlas forum has really slowed down. Also, some of the Yahoo groups like NCE-DCC and Wiring for DCC.
Must be the prematurely nice Spring weather. I already have a 3 week jump on golf over last year up here in the Chicago area.
Rich
Alton Junction
Eric97123 "There is a very simple solution to your problem. Order the missing magazines from Kalmbach. This is called a "back issue." It is people like this with their snotty that ruins it for people.. and it is not just this forum, it is in forums everywhere.. Just because some has not been modeling for 30 years does should not make them the center of ridicule
I meant to be helpful.
Mark
Motley vsmith ..maybe their too busy twitting each other on Facetube or something. Funny quote of the day! I'm still laughing!
vsmith ..maybe their too busy twitting each other on Facetube or something.
Could be a good point, even I have a Face Book account. Not that I use it much!
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000861843770
Want to be my Friend?
Post of the day, IMHO.
Well, regarding the Atlas HO forum, a few very highly opinionated posters have basically run other more normal/reasonable folks off. They have very little regard for any opinion other than their own. Heaven forbid anyone on the Atlas HO forum should buy an MTH engine and--gasp--actually like it! If you do, they say you are a paid shill representing MTH, or worse. When you respond that you are not a paid shill, they label you a liar and/or a troll thus discrediting anything you might possibly contribute to the forum as being utterly worthless. They are utterly worthless! Manufacturers are now telling me directly that they ignore anything said on the Atlas forum because those nutjobs are not the ones buying the products--all they ever do is criticize.
Sure I spot check some of the topics on there, but I'll never write a single word again, and quite frankly, most of the topics have been utterly depressing.
The BLI forum--much better, though it seems there's always someone complaining about something that would be better fixed with a phone call to the service department, or perhaps sending the model in for service. Even though the BLI fans do not love MTH given the litigation history there, they at least are able to keep the conversation pretty civilized even when MTH comes up!
I've been under the impression that most of the topics on here have been pretty civilized in comparison to the Atlas forum, but I do get tired of reading questions that could often be easily answered by reading the directions available from Atlas and other manufacturers, and I simply don't respond to some of them.
If someone asks a good question in an area where I am able to help, I try to do so.
I don't always agree with Sheldon, and perhaps have written something a little sarcastic in response, but I'm not resorting to name calling. We can agree to disagree, and life will go on.
John
I'm inclined to think it's just the time of the year. More outdoor activities, etc. It could be the economy, but arm chair MRing via the internet is one of the least expensive hobbies one can have. As for rudeness, etc., that's been around as long as the internet, so I don't know why it would suddenly become a factor. Plus, I'm always amazed at the ability of most newbies to take a punch and swing back.
Regardless, it seems like most of the regulars from several years ago are still here.
- Harry
While I must agree that rudeness is nothing new, the tone of the average topic on some forums has taken a decidedly negative slant recently.
Even the Atlas moderators have agreed based upon their comments as to why they were locking recent topics.
Lack of content and anything new or helpful to me. (with the exception of the DCC forum)
Moved on to more progressive forums, and I assume others have as well. This forum, and the magazine, is for new people in the hobby. Nothing wrong with that mind you, it serves a purpose.
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge but imagination."-Albert Einstein
http://gearedsteam.blogspot.com/
Seems to me it can be easily explained by early onset lack of interest, complicated by chronic ennui brought on by the 15th edition of a rant about hobby prices, manufacturers, Kalmbach Publishing in general (and MR in particular), RTR and/or the perceived lack of modeling content in the aformentioned company's best known publication and the 33rd complaint of the year (and it's only early April) about not being able to get some giant locomotive to go around 18" curves in HO.
The disease presents initially with an inability to give a rat's patootie about any topic of discussion even though the patient may have been an active past participant in some of the most pyrotechnic "discussions" of any of the subjects mentioned in the above paragraph. As the disease progresses to its critical point, the patient is likely to have symptoms resembling those of a person who has gotten roaring drunk for the first time in his/her life and has a religious epiphany as a result. Said epiphany leads to episodes of worshiping gods with names like Kohler, Universal Rundle, American Standard and the like. The worship of the aforementioned gods more often than not consists of acts of sacrificing the contents of one's stomach in a vain attempt to appease the gods. In fact, participants in this ritual can get so caught up in the act of sacrifice that there is nothing left that can be sacrificed and the participant in this particularly strange ritual is said to be in a trance-like state known colloquially as "the dry heaves".
To date, medical science has neither developed a cure for the disease nor a vaccine against it. Fortunately, the condition is rarely fatal and the patient eventually recovers after developing a highly robust immunity to participation.
Andre
Eric97123I have found this forum very helpful and for some new to the hobby that has been a great help but here is an example from another thread that if I was the response I got as a newbie I would said F You to the forum and never come back "There is a very simple solution to your problem. Order the missing magazines from Kalmbach. This is called a "back issue." It is people like this with their snotty that ruins it for people.. and it is not just this forum, it is in forums everywhere.. Just because some has not been modeling for 30 years does should not make them the center of ridicule
Funny how one can read into the written word. I see it differently. I see YOU as the snotty person as opposed to Mark who actually gave you a great answer. Honestly there are people who don't know what a "back issue" is. Maybe you took offense to that, I don't know. You have to think before you react. What was the other person really trying to tell you.
I consider myself a "mediocre" modeler who is trying to learn and get better. The problem I see as others have alluded to is the stark disappearance of great modelers on this forum. For instance, What ever happened to Joe Fugate? There are others too. Just my thoughts.....yours may differ. And I don't take offense to criticism.
The problem I see as others have alluded to is the stark disappearance of great modelers on this forum. For instance, What ever happened to Joe Fugate?
He founded his own magazine.
I think the general interest forums (like this one) are where a lot of folks start, then as they find people who are in the same "place" they are (layout progress, prototype fidelity, sense of humor, geography, era, favorite road names, scale etc. etc.) and they'll drift to a forum that better fits their needs.
I spend most of my forum time elsewhere, because it's more focused on northeastern N scale railroading, I can meet up with a bunch of the guys at various events and venues, and we can all crack jokes about things without worrying about someone getting their drawers in a bunch. Technically it's a public forum, and it has a membership of around 1000 registered guests, but the conversation remains very tightly focused (although not exactly controlled!).
I like to spin through here periodically to see if anyone has a newbie question I can answer, or if there's a philosophical topic that's of interest to me. Sometimes it's like slowing down while you drive by a car wreck, but for the most part there's something to chat about on a daily basis, even if it's only for a few moments.
Lee
Route of the Alpha Jets www.wmrywesternlines.net
andrechapelonThe problem I see as others have alluded to is the stark disappearance of great modelers on this forum. For instance, What ever happened to Joe Fugate? He founded his own magazine. Andre
Do a Google search for Joe Fugate magazine
If you ever fall over in public, pick yourself up and say “sorry it’s been a while since I inhabited a body.” And just walk away.
andrechapelon The problem I see as others have alluded to is the stark disappearance of great modelers on this forum. For instance, What ever happened to Joe Fugate? He founded his own magazine.
There are great modelers and railroad historians participating in the MR forums, but most are not widely known because they aren't published or use pseudonyms.
Mark (once published in May 1971)
An interesting discussion indeed.
One must properly separate the issue of departure of modelers from this forum as an issue distinct from the OP, which is a trend of declining participation on all model railroad fora.
The novelty has worn off.
I'm not sure I agree that participation is down across all forums I frequent... Some have high turnover which can be mistaken for decline, some have real decline, and some have growth.
For me, I'm much more active in one particular forum which caters much more to my needs and interests. Yes, I'm a model railroader, but specifically I'm a modeler of two Northeastern railroads in N scale in two very specific eras with a very specific set of standards for construction, scenery, and operation. A general forum such as this has only limited value to me when I can go find the company of a group of very focused (and very critical) modelers with very similar interests. So I come here much, much less and go other places much more.
Another curve ball is that my most active period here was 2006-2008 while I was completing my PhD. As with most numerical weather modeling research, I frequently had small chunks of time to kill during model experiments or running model pre- and post-procesing scripts. Rarely was it enough time to make significant headway on a manuscript or a derivation, but was usually ample time for a few posts over at Trains.com. Once I went back into the mainstream operational Air Force that kind of time (and unrestricted internet access) was gone.
As for the departure of "greats" from Trains.com, well... I still think it's partially a matter of the novelty wearing off. Once one realizes how much posting time could be modeling time, one has to make a choice. Also, as has been mentioned, it gets very tiring seeing the same questions and same arguments over and over again. Kudos to those who can see past that to realize the value of treating new members to the same level of service that we all got when we joined.
The critical component, though, has to be that the very general forums like this hold little interest for a "master" because they have already progressed beyond the level of help it can offer. Joe Fugate, as was mentioned, was known for his wonderful advice and tutorials. Do you think he got back as much as he gave? No. I can promise not. He continued to give anyway until he founded his own magazine. But his skills were already way beyond where he could stand to gain any significant additional development through this forum. That's not meant to offend anyone here, but I think we known this to be true. Joe certainly had nothing to learn from me, and I had everything to learn from him!
So I don't know that I see a broad decline across all fora that I frequent; I don't have actual hard numbers. But I suspect it's a combination of a lot of things rom declining novelty, high specialization, and time.
Modeling the Rio Grande Southern First District circa 1938-1946 in HOn3.
From time to time when I login I notice whose on the forum and have seen that there are usually 20 times or more visitors on line as opposed to members.
They may or may not be members as you can be registered on one computer but not others. The historical perspective and record of the numbers of these visitors would certainly tell a lot about the health of the forum. Although they may not be actively participating they are in their way and as much so as members who don't post.
I too have missed members who I found helpfull when I first joined as well as newbies who started a layout way after me, showed excellent progress in less that a year never to be heard from again.
On the other hand there may be skilled members who have left or become visitors, but there is still an excellent pool of knowledgeable members. Maybe you are the next generation of top modler and don't know it yet.
Bob
Don't Ever Give Up
[Link removed]
Let me add this... One major turn-off for me, and I suspect many, is that in general forums like this there is a whole chorus of folks who feel compelled to answer every question about every scale, every railroad, every product, and every technique, most of which they know absolutely nothing about. Case in point: How many N scale product questions are answered incorrectly by HO and O scale modelers who have only ever glanced at N scale behind the glass at the LHS counter? Or how often does a prototype question receive a patently wrong answer because the respondent just assumes what his prototype did is what every prototype did?
I know that this post might seem harsh, and I apologize. But this is the one thing that irks me beyond all others about forums in general, but is particularly endemic to this one. If we all stuck to answering questions we were reasonably prepared to answer correctly, certainly threads would be shorter but the information offered to the community would be so, so much better.
/High-horse mode off
Dave VollmerLet me add this... One major turn-off for me, and I suspect many, is that in general forums like this there is a whole chorus of folks who feel compelled to answer every question about every scale, every railroad, every product, and every technique, most of which they know absolutely nothing about. Case in point: How many N scale product questions are answered incorrectly by HO and O scale modelers who have only ever glanced at N scale behind the glass at the LHS counter? Or how often does a prototype question receive a patently wrong answer because the respondent just assumes what his prototype did is what every prototype did? I know that this post might seem harsh, and I apologize. But this is the one thing that irks me beyond all others about forum in general but is particularly endemic to this one. If we all stuck to answering questions we were reasonably prepared to answer correctly, certainly threads would be shorter but the information offered to the community would be so, so much better. /High-horse mode off
I know that this post might seem harsh, and I apologize. But this is the one thing that irks me beyond all others about forum in general but is particularly endemic to this one. If we all stuck to answering questions we were reasonably prepared to answer correctly, certainly threads would be shorter but the information offered to the community would be so, so much better.
Granted, people shouldn't try to answer questions they know nothing about, but many questions are scale independent. I recently asked a question in the layout construction forum and got a lot of good and differing answers.
Personally, I like hearing about different approaches and different philosophies. The answers that irk me are the ones who think they know the best and he only good answer for all people. In my opinion, there's usually more than one equally good way to solve a problem, and personal preference is an important factor.