DCC is the greatest!!

[doctorwayne]

It's nice to see that this discussion has at least remained such.   I think that too many times, though, we forget that just because a system works for us, it's not necessarily the best for others.  As a DC operator, I can see the benefits of DCC in many scenarios, especially for club layouts or home layouts where multiple operators gather - no one can deny that it's ideally suited to such situations.  And if a DC operator can accomplish much the same results, more power to him. 

My layout is a room-sized one, with no signalling and very simple wiring.  I do have a few toggle switches to isolate passing tracks or sidings, but nothing complicated to wire or to operate.  Two wires connect the power source to the track, and I use a tethered throttle to control one train at a time.  This is the way the layout was designed to be operated - by one person controlling one train.  There is no place for another train to be running, unattended (and, I might add, un-enjoyed), no unwanted sound effects, and no moment unsavoured - in other words, no train running with no one to appreciate it.  This, however, is precisely the point that many tout as a benefit of DCC, but that I personally find disquieting.  By all means enjoy your consisting and your sound effects, and even your trains running unattended, but enough of suggesting that those of us who enjoy something else are somehow missing out.  I have everything which I need and also everything which I want.   And I hope that all who have responded here are able to say the same.

(I guess that the foregoing seven pages worth of discussion means that I was wrong about the spelling error, eh?)

Wayne

[twhite]

Driline

twhite

One locomotive per year is a LOT less expensive than fifty decoders in one fell swoop. 

Get real.

. Ok, lets get real. 50 decoders times $12.00 a piece comes to $600. That's an awfully cheap brass locomotive. I assume a nice brass loco is closer to $1,000 a piece or more?

Try $375 or so--about the same list price as most contemporary steamers.  When you collect brass for a specific railroad like I do--as that's the only way you can GET steam locos for my prototype--, you learn how and where to shop.  

And I'd be going for top-grade decoders, which are probably a lot more than $12.

Tom

[selector]

twhite

...And I'd be going for top-grade decoders, which are probably a lot more than $12.

Ahaaa...!!  We knew you'd cave eventually, Tom.   How about a photo essay of your first insallation?

Oh, and Digitrax systems are waaaaay better than all the rest....waaay....

[ATLANTIC CENTRAL]

selector

Oh, and Digitrax systems are waaaaay better than all the rest....waaay....

And this too is just subjective personal opinion. I use Digitrax on four different layouts that I operate on a regular basis. I don't like it one bit. If I ever changed my layout goals, or built a seperate second layout to which DCC would be a benifit (a possiblility I have always freely admitted), it would be almost anything other than Digitrax.

Features/ergonomics I don't care for:

Endless wheel throttle knobs

Small icon cluttered display

Small closely grouped buttons

Icons/criptic symbols identifing those buttons

Large number of buttons on controller

Plugging in to aquire/un-aquire (I know they have finally fixed this one - more expense for new hardware)

Small, hard to turn/see address dials on the UT4

Danglely "antenna/plug in" wire

All the different multi button sequences for various tasks

 

I have not had the oportunity to try all the others out there, but the few other brands I have tried or read up on all seem easier to use. I would like to actually run someones Easy DCC one time. It looks to be by far the most user friendly DCC wireless throttle.

 

What I do like about my Aristo Train Engineer DC Throttles is that they only have five big buttons for actual train control - FASTER, SLOWER, EAST, WEST, EMERGENCY STOP. They can be easily identified by feel without taking your eyes off the train.

When I first decided to investigate the Train Engineer, I was very skeptical about the push button control rather than a knob. I was actually able to borrow one and run a number of tests before deciding to go in that direction. I was very surprised by the ease of use and excelent control. 

They control the motors with square wave, full voltage, pulse width modulation just like a DCC decoder, so slow speed is excelent. The very nature of how they work provides some momentum even with the momentum feature at its lowest (off) setting. Even when you start or stop "quickly", it is smooth and controlled.

I was able to modify the antennas with no loss of range into short, 4-1/2" "rubber duckies". Their cost was reasonable (and still is although it has increased some since I purchased mine).

For the era I model and the models I own, I have no problem with multiple powered units running together. Most of my diesels are one brand or run in one brand sets, but many I have tested run just fine withother brands.

And many of todays steam locos of different brands run together on DC quite well - Example, my Proto 2-8-8-2's and Spectrum 2-6-6-2's run flawlessly double headed one with the other.

Rating desired layout/operational features for ME (0-10):

Signaling - 10

CTC/ABS operation - 10

Sound - 0 

Multiple trains/operators in close quarters - 2

Engine terminal work - 4

Prototype or nearly prototype train lengths - 10

Industrial switching right on the mainline - 2 (most of my industries are in industrial areas, like a seperate belt line)

Staging of lots of trains to enter/leave the modeled "scenes" - 10

Yard/Industrial area work - 9 (but remember its off the mainline)

My main freight yard is double ended and is actually wired so that each ladder is a seperate section (block). If a track is aligned at both ends, the Engineer needs both sections to enter or travel in that yard track - BUT if it is only aligned at one end, then the ladder that is aligned has control/access to that whole track and the other end does not. This allows two crews to switch the yard at the same time, one from each end. Yes, there are times when one must stop to let the other make a move. But in prototype operation this happens anyway. Yard masters do not generally allow multiple crews to be moving within a certian distance/territory of each other, even in a yard.

So while seemingly complex, my control system is easily built on the workbench in sections and connected to the layout. It offers lots of different operational options, and works well for me. With DC, good and sometimes complex design does make for easy use - quick and simple lack of design can often make DC hard to use.

Sheldon  

[tstage]

ATLANTIC CENTRAL

selector

Oh, and Digitrax systems are waaaaay better than all the rest....waaay....

And this too is just subjective personal opinion. I use Digitrax on four different layouts that operate on a regular basis. I don't like it one bit. If I ever changed my layout goals, or built a seperate second layout to which DCC would be a benifit (a possiblility I have always freely admitted), it would be almost anything other than Digitrax...

Sheldon,

I believe you took Crandell's comment completely the wrong way. Note the at the bottom of his post.

If I know Crandell, he only made the statement because he thought the fire of the conversation was dying down and this was his attempt at humorously "tossing gas on the embers" in a tongue-'n-cheek manner.  Looks like it worked.

Tom

[ATLANTIC CENTRAL]

tstage

Sheldon,

I believe you took Crandell's comment completely the wrong way.  If I know Crandell, he only made the statement because he thought the fire of the conversation had died down too much.  So, this was his attempt at humorously "throwing gas on the embers" in a tongue-'n-cheek manner.

Tongue-'n-cheek or not, I simply and politely explained why would not buy Digitrax even if I did go DCC.

I think too many people accept poor ergonomics on lots of "technology" today, not just DCC controllers.

Some tech geek who designs this stuff says this is how it has to be done so people just deal with it because they want the other features. Same is true of cell phones, stereo recievers, blue ray players, etc,etc.

Many of these designers like the "hidden code" idea of button pushing sequences and it does make the electronics cheaper and easier, at the cost of being less user friendly.

I'll keep my Stereo reciever that actually has a knob for the bass and a knob for the trebble rather than some 10 digit sequence to find and change those ajustments.

And I'll keep my train controllers with five big simple buttons rather than 32 that my fingers can't hardly get on. People talk about their kids running their DCC, My 3 year old Grand Daughter runs my trains with the TE with great skill. 

Sheldon

[DJO]

BRAKIE

  

DJ,Like I said I was a mite confused because I have done all of what you mention.

You do know the higher you set the speed knob the longer it takes for the engine to start moving.I am probably among the few that likes  momentum.

 

Atlas and Athearn uses a 14:1 gear ratio..The difference is in the motor's  circuit draw..However,I seen Genesis and Atlas locomotives play very well together.

One big problem with DC is the modeler.Way to many times I seen block overkill on small to medium size layouts..There is no real reason to block a industrial siding or every 36" piece of flex track...Many blocks can be eliminated by using power routed turnouts..Of course that goes against the magazine "experts" but,it does work..

On some of by 12"x12' ISL the whole layout is one big block with no bus and feeder wire since there is no need.

DC can be very simple or complex just like DCC.

My DCC operation was very basic.2 wires to the track and other then consisting no CV settings.

The only reason I went DCC was for sound.When sound came available for DC use with a Atlas Quantum Engineer Controller that killed DCC on my 1 horse ISL..However,I no longer have a sound equipped locomotive or a HO ISL since changing my primary scale from HO to N so I could hve a home layout and I still don't have any need for DCC...

Now,I was the hostler on a DCC layout..I handle roughly 70 locomotives and by the time the ops session was over I felt like a accountant!

That was the last time I signed up for that job!!!

Larry.
Columbus & Hocking Valley Ry.
Serving the Industries of the Hocking Valley. .

 

in dc you got to do blok overkill sometimes to run 2 different trains on the same track stretch. i like momentom too and its a lot more easy to control on dcc. engines dont get hot on dcc when you keep on the momentom.

[rrinker]

 I HATE limited travel potentiometer throttles, the endless turning digital encoder offers far finer control than any simple potentiometer ever could. However - next time you operate on the Digitrax layout try using the + and - buttons to control speed, since you like pushbuttons, That works too, on the DT throttles (which you must be using since the UT throttles have potentiometers). This is obviously not an issue of "no feedback" because pushing buttons for faster or slower has no direct feedback either. If you push the 'faster' button a couple of times, just how fast are you going? What if you can't see the train? Is there a display like on the DT400 throttle that at least gives you a relative percentage so you know if you are at 1/4 throttle, half throttle, or running wide open? Ergonomics? I hold the DT400 down at my side with one hand, using my thumb to rotate the speed dial and click it to reverse, leaving my other hand free to operate coupler picks.

 The move towards 28 functions has made EVERYONE's throttle display clunky, and is entirely unecessary. Even with sound, you do NOT need 28 functions - unless you are lazy. Press F2 to blow the horn as long as yuou hold it - so you can make any signal. Or hey, look, hit F21 and you get a grade crossing signal. Whoopee. Getting there is clunky, because I really don't think anyone is goign to make a throttle with induvidual buttons for 28 functions - and if they did, what happens when it expands to 36 functions? Stop the insanity! We now have more function buttoms than a prototypical locomotive has.

 ANd of course you can nver win when it comes to how many buttons. The DT400 is actually far easier to operate than the predecessor DT300 and DT100 throttles, simply because it does have more buttons - every button does ONE thing, no SHIFT and ALT combinations which are A) impossible to do with one hand and B) impossible to remember. 10 of those are just numbers 0-9 so you can just type in the cab number of the loco to run - how difficult is that? That's the only button pushing you have to do with DCC for the entire time you run a given loco, unless you have sound and want to blow the whistle and ring the bell. Othersie, you just adjust the speed knob and maybe change direction, just like a DC throttle. And watch the tracks ahead like a good engineer should.

 Oh, and the $12 decoders ARE good quality decoders - if you buy the NCE $12 decoders and not th Bachmann $12 decoders. Actually, I think the Bachmann ones cost MORE than $12 - in which case I wonder who would even buy that junk.

                                   --Randy

 

[BRAKIE]

DJ wrote:in dc you got to do blok overkill sometimes to run 2 different trains on the same track stretch. i like momentom too and its a lot more easy to control on dcc. engines dont get hot on dcc when you keep on the momentom.
-------------------------------

I never had a locomotive to overheat while using momentum on my old MRC Tech II 2500..I traded this toward a CM20 at a train show. The 2500 was probably one of the best power packs MRC made to date.

Now a locomotive would slightly overheat while using pluse power but,not enough to become overly concerned about.I used pulse power on and off for years.

As far as running 2 trains on DC you can do so without block overkill by using Atlas selectors and equalling out the blocks and passing sidings...

Now a hidden fact about DCC is the use of "power districts" which is no more then old fashion blocks that DCC was to do away with.

However,basic DCC operation can be no more then 2 wires hooked to the track with a isolated programing track-unless one wants to remove all of his/her programmed locomotives from the layout.

DCC has it place just as DC does,both gets the job done and neither is a sure answer for train control.

[maxman]

BRAKIE

Now a hidden fact about DCC is the use of "power districts" which is no more then old fashion blocks that DCC was to do away with.

I don't think this is a correct statement.  They are two different things.

[BRAKIE]

davidmbedard

 Brakie, you do NOT need a programming track.  You just need to program through OPs mode the new loco under it's default address (03) and go from there.  You other locos are absolutely free to be running around in the background.

No, you do not need power districts.  Another DCC mis-nomer.   They are nice to have, but by no means a necessity.  

David B

 

Well,so much for the DCC gurus and "experts" found on some forums and in magazines that pushes "power districts" in case of a short..

I knew when I fooled with DCC you had to have a separate programming track and many  DCC"experts" still recommend such...

I've read about the decoders that can be programed on the main line but,personally wouldn't risk doing that knowing my luck.

 BTW..I guess you missed my "DCC can be as simple as hooking 2 wires to the track" comment?

[twhite]

selector

twhite

...And I'd be going for top-grade decoders, which are probably a lot more than $12.

Ahaaa...!!  We knew you'd cave eventually, Tom.   How about a photo essay of your first insallation?

Oh, and Digitrax systems are waaaaay better than all the rest....waaay....

Crandell:  Hoo-HAH! 

Okay, a premise:  50 brass locos at about, say, $15-20 a pop for decoders. 

Ooops!   I've got to replace about 5 very smooth-running open-frame motors, don't I?  Let's see, there's about another $25 a pop for NWSL cans.    Or do I? 

NOW--(he said, scratching his little bald head) I've got to get a SYSTEM.  All the 'stuff' to convert from DC to DCC.  How much are we talking about here?   The basic goodies, the power thingie and the hand-held throttle(s) (are they still called 'throttles'?).   Oh, and yah, I'm installing an operating semaphore system.  What about THAT little devil?   My turnouts are all hand-thrown and route-selective.  What about them?

Seriously, I'm not being sarcastic, but I'm just kind of wondering what kind of Big Bucks it would take to convert the Yuba River sub (which is a pretty good-sized layout) to DCC. 

My OP sessions are done in 'real time', not 'scale time', and the railroad is designed to run about 20 trains in a 24 hour period, somewhat like the prototype.  With helpers, of course.  Not much yard work, except for a weekly local.  So many of my locomotives are geared so close together that I really don't need to worry about 'surge' or 'stringling' when I use rear-train helpers, so I really don't see the need to 'program' them together. 

Right now, about the only reason I can see an advantage of using DCC would be to be able to cut the helpers off and run them back down the line to the terminal while the freight is still on its way.  Actually, I can do that now, flipping a slider, though it's kind of a slow process (but it was that way on the prototype).  

I don't want to come on like a cantankerous Old Fart (which I'm afraid I have, anyway ), but right now, except for what seems like an ENORMOUS outlay of funds, I really can't see converting to DCC.  But for those that use DCC and like it, as I said in my original post, way back before the guns got fired: "Good on you." 

Tom

 

[BRAKIE]

maxman

BRAKIE

Now a hidden fact about DCC is the use of "power districts" which is no more then old fashion blocks that DCC was to do away with.

I don't think this is a correct statement.  They are two different things.

Same thing since both isolates sections of track..You can turn off a "power district" just like a DC  block.

In fact many advance DCC'ers is using blocks to isolate locomotives in engine service areas,diesel house,roundhouse and staging tracks.

 There is certainly nothing wrong with taking precautions since DCC rail is always "hot".

[Scarpia]

8 pages? Really guys, 8 pages on this "topic"?

And last week's wpf post only got to 5?

Huh. Guess my impression of the hobby is way off.

[Texas Zepher]

Paul3

Sheldon,
Many people still flip toggles or turn rotary switches. ...  I agree it's not a great way to run a railroad, but it's simple to understand and execute.  As you know, it's been the subject of many books and magazine articles over the past 70 years or so. 

I have to disagree there about it being simple to understand.  Many people do not understand the block & cab-control DC systems.  Hence the need for all those books and magazines.   When I consider time I've spent helping others with their railroads, the bulk of it has been consumed with DC electrical wiring issues.  To me it is simple and even trivial, but I cannot expect most people to understand it let alone the more advanced and complex DC control systems such as Sheldon describes.  Of course, I also find it funny how many people are still "discovering" DCC.  Having used command control systems for 30 years now I wonder why it took everyone else so long to "discover" the same thing.  After my first glance through the CTC-16 article in the December 1979 MR I knew it would change the hobby.   Good batteries (or other minature electric storage media) will be the makings of the next big change.

P.S.  The issue in the previous few posts - the power blocks people use in DCC are a totally different issue than the control blocks used in DC.  Even advanced DC control systems can have power blocks too.   There are also signalling blocks which are yet a different thing.  Sometimes these end up being the same sections of track but logically they are serving different purposes.  I think most people have gone way overboard with the DCC wiring thing. I'm in the camp that says 2 wires until I come across a situation that needs something more.

[andrechapelon]

Scarpia

8 pages? Really guys, 8 pages on this "topic"?

And last week's wpf post only got to 5?

Huh. Guess my impression of the hobby is way off.

Which hobby is that, model railroading or competitive bladder emptying?

Andre

[maxman]

BRAKIE

Same thing since both isolates sections of track..You can turn off a "power district" just like a DC  block.

Come on, now.  It is absolutely not the same thing.  If I have a single track mainline with a passing siding, and I want to have the ability to pass one train around another with DC, I'll need a toggle switch on each of the tracks that form the passing siding.  If I add to that two operators that want their trains to go in opposing directions, I will also need a DP/DT toggle switch in the two tracks that lead into and out of the passing siding tracks.  To me, and I think to most others, those four sections of track with their associated toggle switches form the four "blocks" for this section of railroad, at least in the model sense.

With DCC, those four sections of track would all be included in one power district. No toggle switches are required for the two engineers to pass their trains.  Further, most if not all of the "power district" definitions I've seen in the model railroad press involve the number of power units that can congregate in one particular location.  So a 150 foot mainline that only sees one train at a time may be part of a power district, but a roundhouse with 15 sound engines may form a power district by itself.

[Texas Zepher]

Scarpia

And last week's wpf post only got to 5?

That is because most of us have stopped reading that for various reasions such as people insisting on quoting the photos.

[BRAKIE]

maxman

BRAKIE

Same thing since both isolates sections of track..You can turn off a "power district" just like a DC  block.

Come on, now.  It is absolutely not the same thing.  If I have a single track mainline with a passing siding, and I want to have the ability to pass one train around another with DC, I'll need a toggle switch on each of the tracks that form the passing siding.  If I add to that two operators that want their trains to go in opposing directions, I will also need a DP/DT toggle switch in the two tracks that lead into and out of the passing siding tracks.  To me, and I think to most others, those four sections of track with their associated toggle switches form the four "blocks" for this section of railroad, at least in the model sense.

With DCC, those four sections of track would all be included in one power district. No toggle switches are required for the two engineers to pass their trains.  Further, most if not all of the "power district" definitions I've seen in the model railroad press involve the number of power units that can congregate in one particular location.  So a 150 foot mainline that only sees one train at a time may be part of a power district, but a roundhouse with 15 sound engines may form a power district by itself.

 

Actually the power blocks is basically for shorts and can be shut off like a DC block..You can isolate the shorted section by turning it off and continue operation.

Any way they want to sugarcoat under any other name its still a block since it requires a toggle switch or selector to turn this section of track on or off..

The blocks used in stagging, engine service areas, diesel houses and roundhouses is a precaution for both decoder and motor in the event of a power spike or short..

Also many keep their DC blocks when shifting from DC to DCC for those "power blocks"..

As far as having a meet between 2 trains on DC power routing switches will isolate one train as the other passes a flip of selector from cab A to Cab B and the second train can continue on its way.Of course this is very basic DC that got buried by the "experts" as they complicated DC wiring over the years.

And apparently the DCC "experts" is burying the simplicity of DCC wiring as well...

[Paul3]

twhite,
No, you didn't post Sheldon's "cheap shot" about flipping block toggles, so don't worry about it. 

tomikawaTT,
Weren't those DC panels of ours something?    They weren't too bad to operate as the blocks progressed across the toggle rows in a linear fashion...for the most part.  We would run these panels for hours and hours during train shows.  We'd have three toggles on for each train: the block you're in, the block in front, and the block behind, and we'd flip them over and over again.  If someone turned on one of your blocks, both trains would be linked and either short out or change speed.  Then there would be cries of "Who's got my train?" as at every session someone always screwed up.  It was a no-brainer to go from that DC cab control system to DCC.  I was against DCC at first (believe it or not), but soon saw the advantages of such a system for our new layout.

Sheldon,
I know you got a sweetheart deal on your relays, but do you have any idea of the MSRP cost of each one?  DPDT?  Latching or non?  You have 16 of one kind and 2 of another kind per board.  If they average around $10 each for relay and socket, that's $180 per junction; for 8, that's $1440 plus the cost of some buttons and the 6 Aristo radios at $240 ea.  So call it around $2900 MSRP for that layout in the pictures.  I'm not busting your chops, just trying to get a handle on your retail costs.  And for time spent, around 2.5 hours per panel to build and install...that's around 20 hours of labor?  And are those 16 relay sockets actually custom etched PCB?

Anyways, on my DCC layout, I figure I've spend around $1100 on the system (w/ 3 wireless throttles), and another $1000 on decoders for 50 locos.  If I added three more wireless throttles to equal that layout you wired, that would bring my total up to $2805-ish.  Time spent wiring the layout is minimal as I just have two wires running under the track with short feeders every 9'.  Time spent installing decoders varies wildly from the easy to the difficult.

All in all, it's about equal except you get signals and automatic train stop (of a sort) and I get free running over my entire layout, speed curves, lighting, and the other DCC options that we all know about.  Obviously, you don't care much for the latter because of your wants and needs, and I can appreciate that.

For the "two-wire" argument, it can be done with DCC without issue.  My layout is a prime example.  However, there are limitations in that signalling and detection is non-existant and one short kills the whole layout...but it can be done.

Brakie,
For the record, no, you can't get the same momentum effects from a DC power supply that you can from DCC.  It's not possible because DCC has 255 variable momentum rates per loco for both accel and decel.  The available DC power supplies have it either on or off and the rate is the same for both accel and decel.  It's possible to build such a DC supply, but there isn't one out there today.

Personally, I am a total snob when it comes to Atlas electrical parts.  I really, really dislike them.  To me, it shows a lack of seriousness in the hobby...like seeing exploding boxcars and launching missle cars.  I have seen layouts with thousands of bucks and hundreds of hours invested in it...yet they use the cheapest electrical junk on the planet to make it go.  Just...plain....ick.  Oh, and it's totally possible to have a "rat's nest of wires" with Atlas products.  I know because I used to have one. 

Doug,
There are a lot of people that like to just see their trains run...for hours.  They say it's relaxing.  I tend to fall asleep.    Reverse loops are therefore common.  Also, think of wyes and turntables.  They also need reversing blocks.

twhite,
I have 6 brass steam engines, 5 brass electrics, 3 brass diesels that I have installed DCC decoders in.  Furthermore, at my 70-member club, we have dozens of brass locos that have also been decodered.  They all run just as well on DCC as they did on DC.  The biggest knock is that on some brass, they run too slow because the track voltage is lower than on the old DC layout days.  I get the feeling that some brass locos were meant to run at 16v or even 18v but DCC's 12-14v is too little for these.  Still, if you're running freight you won't notice.  Passenger locos, OTOH, can be noticably slow if you're used to runnin' them fast on DC.  My old brass doodlebug is really, really slow...but my FL9 is just fine.

If anything, DCC can make brass run better with BEMF, or so they tell me.  BEMF can smooth out rough valve gear "hitches" and binds if tweaked properly.

Doing brass steam can be easy with DCC.  It depends on the room in the boiler and if you want headlights and tender lights.  If you put the decoder in the boiler and do not install a back up light, one can still use just the drawbar for power from the tender.  If you put the decoder in the tender or add a back-up light, then you have to start adding mini-plugs from Minatronics.

As you can tell, I find these horror stories of DCC in brass to be a bunch of hooey.  I've yet to hear anyone actually comment on personal experience with one of these horror stories...just "I've heard..." and "So-and-so said..."  Nothing concrete.  Trust me.  I've done a lot of brass for both myself and for others.  It's not that hard.  I find it easier to do brass steam than a BB Athearn.

BTW, how do you keep the Tomar shoes from snagging on the track and twisting in annoying ways?  My friend has a B&A 4-6-6T that I helped put a shoe on, and every time it runs, the shoe wants to catch on frogs, grade crossings, scenery, etc.

Oh, and FWIW, no one said you had to buy all your DCC decoders at once, either.  Buy them here and there and stockpile them.  It's not like they rot from disuse.  When you get enough, then convert your loco fleet.  I did the same thing when I went to Kadees when I was a kid.

BTW, why would you have to replace open frame motors with cans?  I have a NJ/Custom Brass NH I-4 with an DC70-clone open frame.  It works just fine with an old DH121 DCC decoder.

For figuring out your DCC conversion cost for the system, the questions are: 1). How many trains run at the same time?  2). How many operators are running said trains?  3). Do you want wireless throttles?  Answer those, and then we can talk specific prices.

doctorwayne,
A lot of us that have DCC were against it ourselves.  I was.  I was very against DCC.  It was due to my ignorance of DCC and what it meant I could do with my layout.  I was, indeed, "missing out" by refusing to even consider it.  When I saw it and used it, and my other fears assuaged (it's an NMRA Standard), I became an enthusiastic DCC user.  Some of us, I guess, feel the need to share that experience with others so that they, too, can enjoy what we now enjoy.  Some go too far spreading the news.  Hopefully, I haven't. 

Texas Zephyr,
DC block wiring can be easy and simple...especially compared to MZL.  A 2-cab system with DPDT center off toggles can be a snap.  An engine terminal for one cab is equally easy.  A more complicated block control panel like the ones I posted from my old club?  Um, not so much.    Most people can understand ON and OFF.  They are used to turning on a wall switch in their house.  Turning on a block is not that different.  Linking that block to multiple cabs is another story, but the concept of ON and OFF...well, I hazard a guess that 99% of the population gets that.

Paul A. Cutler III

[twhite]

Paul: 

Thanks for the answers, I appreciate them. 

As to converting the open-frames, I had heard that DCC didn't work well with them.  Obviously your success with them gives me something to think about, if I consider the Big Move.   Of course, I know that the motor has to be isolated from the frame--that has been standard operational procedure with every locomotive I've converted from open-frame to can.   

As to the Tomar sliders--I've not had any problems with them catching on trackwork--but I've had to do some careful adjusting to make sure that the slider itself is in line with my wheel flanges and riding the rail-head as if it had a flange in 'back' of it.   But no problems 'catching', and definite improved pickup.

My layout would be run by myself--I'm a "Lone Wolf" kinda guy, and there would be no other operators involved.  At the most, given my 'real-time' operating methods, there would be no more than two trains on the layout at any given time (which is what I'm doing now, BTW).   It's a non-parallel double track line--similar to the east-west lines on the UP (ex SP) Donner Pass route between Rocklin and Colfax, CA.  Stiff mountain grades (2-2.4%) but generous curves (34-36").   Little 'on-line' traffic, save for some local once-a-week 'turn' freights and seasonal cattle moves.   Main 'yard' moves would be changing out power between "Valley" and "Mountain" power--either double-heading or replacing with large steam.  Some 'rear-end' helper service right out of the main yard where the grade is the heaviest (2.4%), drop-off  of helpers half-way up where the grade eases. 

Anyway, that's pretty much my 'operations'.  I'll be honest, though, if I were to do it, I'd want to convert all of my locos at once, since I really never know WHICH locomotive I want to have running at any given time. 

But that's what I'd be facing, pretty much.   The cost seems a little daunting, and I don't mine telling you that when it comes to Things Electric (or electronic), I'm pretty much of a Doofus.  If it helps, I just had to have someone come over and install a new amp for my Surround System in my music room.  I couldn't make heads or tails out of the instruction manual. 

So for me, a conversion to DCC has two very BIG drawbacks--cost and electronics.   The first doesn't scare me quite THAT much, but the second makes me break out in a sweat. 

But thank you for your information.  It's really appreciated. 

Tom

[BRAKIE]

David B asks:Are you just making things up?

------------------------------

No,Why would I want to do such a thing when it gains nothing?

I base my comments on my past experiences or first hand observations..

 --------------------------------

My old buddy Paul wrote:

Personally, I am a total snob when it comes to Atlas electrical parts.  I really, really dislike them.  To me, it shows a lack of seriousness in the hobby...like seeing exploding boxcars and launching missle cars.  I have seen layouts with thousands of bucks and hundreds of hours invested in it...yet they use the cheapest electrical junk on the planet to make it go.  Just...plain....ick.  Oh, and it's totally possible to have a "rat's nest of wires" with Atlas products.  I know because I used to have one. 

------------------------------

Paul,I use Atlas selectors because its easy to wire.You dislike 'em..I hate toggle switches since you need more then 1 wire per block..

IMHO selectors doesn't cheapen a layout as much as modeling or scenery mistakes..Come on now a modeler spends hours making a beautiful water fall with nothing more then a small farm pond to catch billions gallons of water that comes tumbling down the falls and these guys are the so called "experts" that tells us how we should model?

 You mention "like seeing exploding boxcars and launching missile cars". Paul,let's not go there on a public forum since that opens up a can of hyper active worms.

Now pray tell how you manage to get a rats nest running one wire to each block? I'll love to have seen that..LOL!

 

[andrechapelon]

andrechapelon

Scarpia

8 pages? Really guys, 8 pages on this "topic"?

And last week's wpf post only got to 5?

Huh. Guess my impression of the hobby is way off.

Which hobby is that, model railroading or competitive bladder emptying?

Andre

In competitive bladder emptying, there are 3 categories as follows: volume, distance and accuracy.

Near as I can figure, Paul3 is ahead in the accuracy category and Brakie and Sheldon are tied for volume.  David B is currently far in the lead in the distance category.

Thanks to all who have participated so far.  Final results will be posted when the contest ends either due to the exhaustion of the participants or the game is called on account of the moderators losing their patience.

Andre

 

 

[doctorwayne]

Paul3

doctorwayne,

A lot of us that have DCC were against it ourselves.  I was.  I was very against DCC.  It was due to my ignorance of DCC and what it meant I could do with my layout.  I was, indeed, "missing out" by refusing to even consider it.  When I saw it and used it, and my other fears assuaged (it's an NMRA Standard), I became an enthusiastic DCC user.  Some of us, I guess, feel the need to share that experience with others so that they, too, can enjoy what we now enjoy.  Some go too far spreading the news.  Hopefully, I haven't. 

 

Thanks for your well-considered reply, Paul.   

I'm certainly not against DCC, and did investigate it out of curiosity - while I may be fairly set in my ways, I find it beneficial to remain open-minded, and I'm always as eager to learn as I am to share my own limited knowledge.  However, for my interests and operating scheme, I saw no benefits whatsoever:  any of my locos run well in almost any combination, I almost always operate alone, and my operating scheme requires an attentive operator for every train, as almost all do some local work at the various towns along the line.  While the sounds available nowadays are impressive, they're not especially appealing for me either, although I must admit that most of the time, I keep the speakers for my computer turned off, too.  

As for costs, it was originally a concern, but in my present situation, with only a couple dozen locos, it no longer is.  I've never understood why so many thought it difficult to equip brass locos with DCC, either:  anybody familiar with re-motoring brass should be able to accomplish it easily.

Paul3

Personally, I am a total snob when it comes to Atlas electrical parts.  I really, really dislike them.  To me, it shows a lack of seriousness in the hobby...like seeing exploding boxcars and launching missle cars.  I have seen layouts with thousands of bucks and hundreds of hours invested in it...yet they use the cheapest electrical junk on the planet to make it go.  Just...plain....ick.  Oh, and it's totally possible to have a "rat's nest of wires" with Atlas products.  I know because I used to have one. 

Personally, I'm not a big fan of those parts, but they did help an awful lot of modellers get their layouts running.  However, I must confess that I had originally included in my previous reply a comment that the thought of people running multiple trains solo, with all but one more-or-less unattended, smacked to me of  a "lack of seriousness in the hobby".   I removed the reference before posting, though, as I thought some might take it too seriously.  I suppose it all depends on where you sit as to what's serious or not.  I do firmly believe that there's no one right way for everybody to do anything, though.

Another thing to bear in mind is the newcomers to this hobby.  Some are adults, either returning to the hobby or discovering it for the first time, and with, relatively speaking, money to burn, while others are students with little or no income.  Perhaps someday DCC-equipped starter trainsets will be commonplace, but what grandpa and grandma buy for their grandkids (if they consider trains at all) is usually a DC set. While the adult newcomers can often afford (and want) all the "bells and whistles" associated with DCC, those kids just starting out shouldn't be made to feel that they're not "serious" about the hobby just because they can't afford a certain aspect of it.  Hopefully, we "DC-dinosaurs" will be able to provide enough of an example of what can be done in DC, keeping them in the hobby until they are able to move up to DCC or whatever happens to be the preferred system at that time.

Even though diesels rule the rails nowadays, many fans still prefer steam:  likewise for control systems, many opt for DCC, but some still prefer DC.

Wayne

 

 

[tomikawaTT]

Silver Pilot

Driline

BRAKIE

I can wire blocks on my layouts by using Atlas selectors and plastic rail joiners on the common rail..

 

That's fine if you're a noobie. But ALL of the modelrailroaders I grew up with moved on to toggle and rotary switches on the fascia. Then we found DCC and never went back.

Or if you're 70+ years old and are, to paraphrase Bobby Unser, an analog mind stuck in a digital world.  Brakie, Sheldon & TT probably haven't figured out the whole digital TV thing yet either; We should all be impressed that they've figured out computers and the internet. Though we know that TT hasn't figured out digital cameras and how to post pictures yet.

Touche'!  I have gotten as far as loading the pictures to my hard drive.  Someday...

Driline, about the time the first command control system was raising a few tendrils out of the mud I discovered MZL, moved 1/3 of my selectors to zone panels, routed the other circuits to the switch point actuators and never looked back.  By the time DCC had bloomed into full flower I was too far along my chosen course to spend $$$ i didn't have to go back to square one.

Doug, you have to remember that some of us operate in the manner of a very specific prototype - including the requirement to keep catenary motors on tracks with wire overhead and steam locos out of the long tunnel the motors use to reach the Netherworld.  Down in the depths of the Netherworld there is ONE track section that allows trains to turn endways.  It is used to support over 100 train movements per 'day' - most of which involve being turned end-for-end.

David M, unless you are very well informed about a specific modeler's financial situation, perceived excessive cost is NEVER a, "Poor argument."  Some of us have to support our hobbies on a frayed shoestring.  My own brass was purchased a long time ago, in kit form.  Present replacement cost, thanks to inflation and changing exchange rates, is 30-50 times the price I paid.  In fact, my typical brass loco cost me less than the decoder I would need to make it DCC-able.

Maxman, I don't know where you got your DC control impressions.  In every system I've encountered, from two wires to MZL, the only DPDT switches (toggle, slide or whatever) were part of the device that controlled the locomotive, not in the track lines of the panels.

Paul, MZL, as I practice it, is no more complex to wire than traditional DC.  The major difference is that I use contacts on switch point actuators (motor or manual) to do what used to be done with toggles on a panel.

To reiterate, for someone who is starting from zero, or from a limited position wanting to expand, DCC is probably a better idea than any form of DC.  However, I really am 70+, am in the process of building what I believe is my, "Last in this lifetime," layout and may very well be an analog mind in a digital world.  I am very content in my chosen niche.

Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - as I like it)

[Scarpia]

andrechapelon

andrechapelon

Scarpia

8 pages? Really guys, 8 pages on this "topic"?

And last week's wpf post only got to 5?

Huh. Guess my impression of the hobby is way off.

Which hobby is that, model railroading or competitive bladder emptying?

Andre

In competitive bladder emptying, there are 3 categories as follows: volume, distance and accuracy.

Near as I can figure, Paul3 is ahead in the accuracy category and Brakie and Sheldon are tied for volume.  David B is currently far in the lead in the distance category.

Thanks to all who have participated so far.  Final results will be posted when the contest ends either due to the exhaustion of the participants or the game is called on account of the moderators losing their patience.

Andre

 

 

 Andre, is it true that color is being discounted in this year's competition? Besides stream length, distance, and accuracy, a fair number of the community is calling for a more natural competition, included some other factors such as brevity, and usefulness.

Apparently from our scientific experts here on call, the color of the stream can also indicate whether or not the athlete has taken hormones or other performance enhancers.

From some sources, this is not a an un- ...  I'm sorry what's that.....  - we will be right back after this important announcement from our sponsor.

[Packer]

andrechapelon

*snip*  Final results will be posted when the contest ends either due to the exhaustion of the participants or the game is called on account of the moderators losing their patience.

Andre

Any wagers on which will happen first?

[twhite]

davidmbedard

David M, unless you are very well informed about a specific modeler's financial situation, perceived excessive cost is NEVER a, "Poor argument."  Some of us have to support our hobbies on a frayed shoestring.  My own brass was purchased a long time ago, in kit form.  Present replacement cost, thanks to inflation and changing exchange rates, is 30-50 times the price I paid.  In fact, my typical brass loco cost me less than the decoder I would need to make it DCC-able.

...then he need not mention the fact that he has so many "Brass" locos and just title them as "locos".

David B

David: 

I mentioned them as being BRASS locomotives because of problems I have heard on other posts with converting brass locomotives to DCC.  I wasn't bragging, I was simply stating a fact. 

Tom

[ATLANTIC CENTRAL]

Paul3

Sheldon,
I know you got a sweetheart deal on your relays, but do you have any idea of the MSRP cost of each one?  DPDT?  Latching or non?  You have 16 of one kind and 2 of another kind per board.  If they average around $10 each for relay and socket, that's $180 per junction; for 8, that's $1440 plus the cost of some buttons and the 6 Aristo radios at $240 ea.  So call it around $2900 MSRP for that layout in the pictures.  I'm not busting your chops, just trying to get a handle on your retail costs.  And for time spent, around 2.5 hours per panel to build and install...that's around 20 hours of labor?  And are those 16 relay sockets actually custom etched PCB?

Paul,

YOU can buy those relays from the same place I did for about $3 each just by buying the whole project quantity at once. Actually they are all the same relay, 4PDT ice cube, 24 VDC coil. Yes the groups of eight are on custom boards I had made. But they need not be, that just makes it easier. The boards cost about $20 each to have made. I contracted enough for my layout and my friends layout and a few spares. As a market product they could be done much cheaper. The Aristo Train Engineer is currently $240 retail, they can be had for a lot less. When I, and the owner of the layout shown, bought them, we paid and average of $140, and use a $20 power supply for each one. The LED lighted pushbuttons come from the same supplier as the relays and are about $2 each.

AND, I did tell the owner of that layout the the cost would be similar to DCC, but he did not want to install decoders in his brass shays and such. The layout owner, myself and two others in our group divided up the installation labor with me leading the team. His application does not necessarily maximize the benifits since he does not have signaling or a central panel. BUT, a central panel could be easily added to his system if he wanted it.

Sheldon 

[blownout cylinder]

davidmbedard

 

Near as I can figure, Paul3 is ahead in the accuracy category and Brakie and Sheldon are tied for volume.  David B is currently far in the lead in the distance category.

And my dead horse counts for nothing?!?

David B

In which category?