twhiteWhat the Heck are Toggles, anyway?
Tom, don't they live under bridges and start flame wars?
Cuda Ken
I hate Rust
Sheldon,
Please enlighten us on this amazing control system that you have that allows 4 trains to be run on your mainline without using switches. Is this some variation of the "magic wand" system our japanese modeling friend uses to throw his twin coil switch machines. A red wand, a blue wand, a yellow wand, and a green wand and when I wave it in the air the trains move? Please explain how your system works. Pictures would be even better.
cudakentwhiteWhat the Heck are Toggles, anyway? Tom, don't they live under bridges and start flame wars? Cuda Ken
Dr. Frankendiesel aka Scott Running BearSpace Mouse for president!15 year veteran fire fighterCollector of Apple //e'sRunning Bear EnterprisesHistory Channel Club life member.beatus homo qui invenit sapientiam
jeffrey-wimberly jecorbettYou've got me curious. Without toggles or slide switches like the Atlas Selector, how is it you are able to independently control so many trains. Way back in the 1960s my brother and I bought a used 4x8 HO layout that had two power packs, each controlling a different loop of track, so there was no need to for switches. Is there another way to assign a train to different throttles without the use of some type of manual switch? Ditto. I just can't see how a train on a DC layout can negotiate a return loop without a set of toggles to change the polarity.
jecorbettYou've got me curious. Without toggles or slide switches like the Atlas Selector, how is it you are able to independently control so many trains. Way back in the 1960s my brother and I bought a used 4x8 HO layout that had two power packs, each controlling a different loop of track, so there was no need to for switches. Is there another way to assign a train to different throttles without the use of some type of manual switch?
I am scratching my head over that as well..
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Well first let me say that it does involve some advanced planning and wiring. And is not easily explained in a short response. But, using a combination of wiring methods developed over all the many years since DC trains began, it is very possible to wire a layout for multiple train operation with very minimal "operator input" in terms of assigning cabs to track sections.
If you have access to any old MR's, you could start by reading the series of articles by Ed Ravenscroft that appeared throughout 1974. And, Paul Mallery's "Electrical Handbook for Model Railroads - vol 1&2" covers many methods of advanced cab control which minimize or eliminate "flipping switches".
Some of it is done automaticly by turnout postion. This is more than simple power routing that you may already understand, but actually involves hard wired logic that connects some sections of track differently based on turnout positon.
I use a pushbuttion system that allows the few "cab asignments" that are needed, to be made from multiple locoations as you walk around with your train, just like wireless DCC. And, my throttles are wireless DC throttles from Aristo Craft.
OR, on the mainline, as the Dispatcher aligns your route and gives you clearance, his actions at the CTC panel assign your power for you. All you do is run the train. Signaling and CTC operation is a big part of my model railroading goals. My signal/CTC system is built right into my control system and my turnout control system. It is all intergrated.
OR, for display runnng during an open house, deticated routes are assigned and trains can just run, on their own.
These are my wants and needs, doing them with DCC would cost considerably more than my intergrated DC system. Especially since I have over 100 locos that would require decoders.
I believe from following some of your other posts, that you are relatively new the hobby or are just returning to the hobby. So in all fairness let me explain that I personally have no interest in onboard sound, and the era/theme of my layout does not require odd match up consisting or modern loco lighting effects. All of which are better provided with DCC.
I model 1954, my diesels are matched sets, my steam is matched double headers (but actually many of todays new locos will run very well on DC with other brands). My layout plan is large but relatively simple making it easy to keep trains "away from each other" (something the prototype goes to great length to do with signaling) and I want the flexablity of operating the whole layout alone, with a crew, or for an openhouse. So the track plan and control system work together to provide all of these features.
I belong to a local round robin group and many in the group have DCC. I operate their layouts, even designed one of them and have been involved in constructing several of them. I am very familiar with DCC and have nothing against it, its just not for me at this time on this layout.
If my goals where different, I might want DCC, but I have been happy with this set of goals for many years and will continue on this path.
Sheldon
Far as running 4 trains on DC with no switches or toggles, that easy!
K-10 model train has two DC loops on his layout. Each loop has around 10 MRC 9500's. Each one controls around 30 feet of track, then plastic rail joiners, then next 9500 picks up from there.
When I was DC, I could run two trains at the same time. Only switches I had where to kill power to spurs so engines could sit.
Time to get out of here before there is incoming!
jeffrey-wimberly cudaken twhiteWhat the Heck are Toggles, anyway? Tom, don't they live under bridges and start flame wars? Cuda Ken
cudaken twhiteWhat the Heck are Toggles, anyway? Tom, don't they live under bridges and start flame wars? Cuda Ken
Hahahaaaaa!!! Where the heck are all those wires going?? I love this picture- subliminal nonsense, like a horse with a fuel filler cap on its ***!
BRAKIE jeffrey-wimberly jecorbettYou've got me curious. Without toggles or slide switches like the Atlas Selector, how is it you are able to independently control so many trains. Way back in the 1960s my brother and I bought a used 4x8 HO layout that had two power packs, each controlling a different loop of track, so there was no need to for switches. Is there another way to assign a train to different throttles without the use of some type of manual switch? Ditto. I just can't see how a train on a DC layout can negotiate a return loop without a set of toggles to change the polarity. I am scratching my head over that as well..
In my case, return loops are only used in stagging areas. Trains pull in to the loop and stop. The turnout is thrown, the once west bound train is now east bound so the operator reverses the direction on his wireless throttle, and he can now go back the way he came.
As you stand and look at any train, with your Aristo throttle in your hand, the left direction button sends the train to you left, the right one sends it to your right. Simple.
The "reversing" is done by relay contacts that mirror the switch machine.
cudaken Far as running 4 trains on DC with no switches or toggles, that easy! K-10 model train has two DC loops on his layout. Each loop has around 10 MRC 9500's. Each one controls around 30 feet of track, then plastic rail joiners, then next 9500 picks up from there. When I was DC, I could run two trains at the same time. Only switches I had where to kill power to spurs so engines could sit. Time to get out of here before there is incoming! Cuda Ken
This too is a time honored method of DC control that works very well for some layout designs.
Track plans and control systems should be tailored to the needs/wants of the user. There is no perfect track plan and no perfect control system.
EMD F7A jeffrey-wimberly cudaken twhiteWhat the Heck are Toggles, anyway? Tom, don't they live under bridges and start flame wars? Cuda Ken Hahahaaaaa!!! Where the heck are all those wires going?? I love this picture- subliminal nonsense, like a horse with a fuel filler cap on its ***!
Actually come to think of it plug and play toggle switches for model railroading would be nice..
A P/P toggle switch could be used on DC or DCC layouts.
For those interested in more info on alterative DC systems, I refer you to this thread, or send me a PM.
It includes pictures of a similar system to mine that I built and installed on a friends layout.
http://cs.trains.com/trccs/forums/thread/1801092.aspx
John (UP 4-12-2),I would agree that DCS is more advanced than DCC, but better? Last week, an experienced DCC user (he's got NCE at home and uses Digitrax at our club) was simply trying to change the address on an MTH SD70Ace using the club Digitrax system. It took him 6 attempts before the number was changed. This is better?On a DCC sound decoder, my individual sound levels can be adjusted to suit my needs. On DCS, you get all or nothing. On DCC, I can move my sound & lighting effects around so if I want the coupler clank on F3 or F7 I can put it there. On DCS, you can't move a thing. On some DCC sound decoders, I can upload custom sound effects to represent any prototype I want. With DCS, what they give you is what you get...no more. If I want DCC in my 1970's-era brass steam loco, I have a multitude of choices to pick from. There are economical DCC decoders to fully involved sound systems. With DCS...you can't do anything about that old engine because DCS decoders don't exist outside factory installed units. All this is better?
While I want a simple control system, I don't want simplistic. To me, DCS crosses that line.
Sheldon,Many people still flip toggles or turn rotary switches. Please don't try to pretend otherwise. I agree it's not a great way to run a railroad, but it's simple to understand and execute. As you know, it's been the subject of many books and magazine articles over the past 70 years or so. Toggle flipping, for many of us, was the best we could do at the time, and for those that won't change it will remain so.
Not everyone is an electrical engineer or electronics hobbyists that enjoys creating circuit designs or even soldering. There's a lot of people in this hobby that just want to run trains and don't have access to almost free electronic gear, a 4-year electrical degree, or 10+ years experience in the electronics field. Somehow, I'm thinking that the electrical hobbyists are not the majority of model railroaders.
tomikawaTT,Cheap shots abound from both camps. The recent DC controls thread on the Electrical Forum proves that.
twhite,Okay...but let me put it this way: This is a clearly titled DCC thread. Why are there the usual contingent of DC users like yourself, tomikawaTT, & Sheldon all posting here? What persuaded all of you to click on the link in the first place? Other than for the entertainment, that is.
jecorbett,One can do various control systems without DCC or toggles and still run many trains at once. The simplest way is the Northlandz way...just have a seperate loop for every train and you're done. The other is to have your track switches throw power for you, so as each route is aligned, the power flows, too. Then there are more exotic control systems like progressive block (I think MIT uses something like that) and MZL.
jeffrey-wimberly,I don't see why reverse loops cannot be controlled automatically as with DCC. Most people never tried because of the work & expense involved, but using detector circuits of one kind or another wouldn't be that hard to trip a relay to reverse polarity. Even little infrared beams would work.
Paul A. Cutler III
ATLANTIC CENTRAL I use a pushbuttion system that allows the few "cab asignments" that are needed, to be made from multiple locoations as you walk around with your train, just like wireless DCC. And, my throttles are wireless DC throttles from Aristo Craft. OR, on the mainline, as the Dispatcher aligns your route and gives you clearance, his actions at the CTC panel assign your power for you. All you do is run the train. Signaling and CTC operation is a big part of my model railroading goals. My signal/CTC system is built right into my control system and my turnout control system. It is all intergrated. OR, for display runnng during an open house, deticated routes are assigned and trains can just run, on their own. Sheldon
Sorry Sheldon, but it seems that your comment about being able to run multiple trains in DC without flipping toggle switches is misleading, based on your response quoted above. Pushbuttons, toggle switches or a dispatcher at a CTC panel - some kind of switch is being thrown at some point in the process of running multiple trains. As the Mythbusters would say - "Myth: You can run multiple trains on a DC system without throwing switches - BUSTED"
ATLANTIC CENTRALcudaken K-10 model train has two DC loops on his layout. Each loop has around 10 MRC 9500's. Each one controls around 30 feet of track, then plastic rail joiners, then next 9500 picks up from there. Cuda Ken This too is a time honored method of DC control that works very well for some layout designs. Sheldon
cudaken K-10 model train has two DC loops on his layout. Each loop has around 10 MRC 9500's. Each one controls around 30 feet of track, then plastic rail joiners, then next 9500 picks up from there. Cuda Ken
So, if my arithmetic is correct:
(2) loops with (10) MRC 9500 power packs @ ~$90*/ea (discounted) = $1,800.
*[Prices for the MRC 9500s actually were anywhere from $87.59 to $145.98 ea. That would give a total range of $1,750 - $2,920 for all (20) twenty.]
Time honored or not, the above sure begs the question whether DC is cheaper than DCC in this particular situation.
Sheldon, you've noted several times in other similar discussion threads that the cost of outfitting a large amount of locomotives would get expensive. For $1,800, I could outfit 100 locomotives with NCE D13SJR decoders and buy a good DCC system and STILL have a good chunk of change left over in my pocket. (Thankfully, I only have a dozen or so locomotives. LOL!)
ATLANTIC CENTRALTrack plans and control systems should be tailored to the needs/wants of the user. There is no perfect track plan and no perfect control system.
I would agree with you totally on this.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
I have been reading on other forums for about two days now that MTH seems to be ready to offer their HO engines in DCC, or DCC-ready, beginning in April some time. This can only be true if they have reconsidered their original apparent position about sticking strictly to their DCS control systems.
It's about time....
We don' wan' no stinkin' flame wars......okay?
Surely, a person can be pleased and compleat with a DC-operated and silent railroad. If he says as much, great! He's enjoying the hobby, which is hopefully everyone's goal. Complicated, expensive, simple and cheap, who cares...we all determine our way ahead.
Similarly, if DCC makes your experience 'the greatest', as the title of the thread says it is, then that is the judgement of those who are not squarely in the experience I described in the previous paragraph.
The bench is plenty long for all of us to enjoy the trains that pass in front of us, guys.
-Crandell
tstage Time honored or not, the above sure begs the question whether DC is cheaper than DCC in this particular situation. Sheldon, you've noted several times in other similar discussion threads that the cost of outfitting a large amount of locomotives would get expensive. For $1,800, I could outfit 100 locomotives with NCE D13SJR decoders and buy a good DCC system and STILL have a good chunk of change left over in my pocket. (Thankfully, I only have a dozen or so locomotives. LOL!) ATLANTIC CENTRALTrack plans and control systems should be tailored to the needs/wants of the user. There is no perfect track plan and no perfect control system. I would agree with you totally on this.
I agree its not cheaper in this case and I made no such claim about K-10 or this type of system, I simply pointed out its an old idea that works well in some cases. For the type of operation K-10 is, its a good system, since they are a public layout where people bring their own stuff.
Silver PilotSorry Sheldon, but it seems that your comment about being able to run multiple trains in DC without flipping toggle switches is misleading, based on your response quoted above. Pushbuttons, toggle switches or a dispatcher at a CTC panel - some kind of switch is being thrown at some point in the process of running multiple trains. As the Mythbusters would say - "Myth: You can run multiple trains on a DC system without throwing switches - BUSTED"
Do you throw switches to align turnouts on your DCC layout? My turnout controls do most, and in some cases, all of the power routing for the cabs. This is a function of layout design and desired operational schemes, not a function of DC or DCC.
And, there are DC systems other than what I use, computerized block control for one, that do exactly that, run multiple trains without throwing any switches.
The point is this, the image of someone franticly flipping toggles on a central control panel to control several trains is an untrue image of many advanced DC cab control systems that have been developed over the years.
Fact is I can walk around with my train and push a few buttons at junctions and interlockings to align turnouts and route power without refering to or being at a central panel and without "doubling back". Another operator can follow behind me and ajust his routes as needed.
OR as an option, the CTC Dispatcher can assign those routes and the Engineers just run the trains and obey the signals. From the Engineer's point of view, how is that any different than DCC? If I'm all alone, the whole railroad can be asigned to my throttle and I can go anywhere with my wireless throttle.
I only run one train at a time OR have them on independent routes OR have a crew with an Engineer for each train. I have no interest in trying to operate two trains by myself on the same route.
My choices, I understand they are not for everyone.
Brother Bedard,
ROFLMAO!!!
In one not so long ago thread, a poster had a photo of one of his club's block assignment panels. I will be quick to admit that if I was faced by a 400-switch array of toggles I'd change systems in a New York minute!
My version of MZL differs from Sheldon's in that I do use rotary switches - but not many, and they don't have to be turned often.
I also use toggles - to control structure lighting, or as manual point throwers for non-powered switches. (Even manual switches need track power routing contacts - and not just for hot frog control.)
Note that I don't recommend MZL for new or inexperienced modelers, or for anyone who is happy with their present system, DC or DCC. Like my choice of prototype, my choice of control system was driven by a very personal list of givens and druthers.
Above all, have fun.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
Paul3 Sheldon,Many people still flip toggles or turn rotary switches. Please don't try to pretend otherwise. I agree it's not a great way to run a railroad, but it's simple to understand and execute. As you know, it's been the subject of many books and magazine articles over the past 70 years or so. Toggle flipping, for many of us, was the best we could do at the time, and for those that won't change it will remain so. Not everyone is an electrical engineer or electronics hobbyists that enjoys creating circuit designs or even soldering. There's a lot of people in this hobby that just want to run trains and don't have access to almost free electronic gear, a 4-year electrical degree, or 10+ years experience in the electronics field. Somehow, I'm thinking that the electrical hobbyists are not the majority of model railroaders.
And systems like Chuck and I use have been well documented in those same 70 years. And are in fact no harder to build than those with rotary switches or toggles for every "block", which is what we DON'T have or need with our type of systems. The only soldering I do in building my system is the connections to the very small lighted pushbuttons that control turnouts and cab assignments. All the rest is screw terminals and crimp sleeves with larger, easy to work with 16-18 guage wire or terminal strips with CAT5 cable. No more soldering than some guy with 50-100 slow motion switch machines and mini toggles and LED's on a DCC layout.
And, if you have never operated on a MZL layout, or a jumper plug layout or a multi cab sectional layout like the DC portion of K-10, how can you judge it? I have operated a number of DCC layouts.
Paul3twhite,Okay...but let me put it this way: This is a clearly titled DCC thread. Why are there the usual contingent of DC users like yourself, tomikawaTT, & Sheldon all posting here? What persuaded all of you to click on the link in the first place? Other than for the entertainment, that is.
I was a quiet observer until the DC/toggle switch cheap shot thing, after that I made one simple statement and then just answered comments and questions. And still gave full credit to the fact that DCC has specific advantages for some people/layouts/needs/wants.
Paul3jeffrey-wimberly,I don't see why reverse loops cannot be controlled automatically as with DCC. Most people never tried because of the work & expense involved, but using detector circuits of one kind or another wouldn't be that hard to trip a relay to reverse polarity. Even little infrared beams would work.
They can be, I've seen it done, and the orginal MZL makes them pretty seemless anyway.
With the system you've described who far behind the 1st train can a second train operate along the same length of track, with the same route? Think of a passenger train in 2 sections. They're both going to the same destination, how far behind the first section is the second section, with independent speed control?
Silver Pilot Sheldon, With the system you've described who far behind the 1st train can a second train operate along the same length of track, with the same route? Think of a passenger train in 2 sections. They're both going to the same destination, how far behind the first section is the second section, with independent speed control?
Again, that is a function of layout design and layout operational goals. No answer I give you would be universally correct. On the prototype even a following section would be at least one signal block behind in CTC or ABS controlled teritory. That's the kinds of modeling I am interested in, I want working signals, above and more importantly than the other features DCC has to offer.
I understand those of you who have different goals, but fact is, with the system I use and the size/scope of the layout I am building, I can have all the control I need and signals for what it would cost just to control the trains with DCC, before you even thought about signals.
Not wanting sound, not needing consisting, and being happy with whatever other compromises, what I have gets me where I want to be for much less. And provides the type of user interface I prefer. I personally dislike most of the DCC handhelds on the market and the endless sequences of button pushing to assign, unassign, consist, etc,etc. you push buttons on a DT400, I push a few puttons on panels spread around the layout, not really much different from where I sit.
Use your layout as an example. How much distance must be between trains using the same route and how does control get changed from cab A to cab B.?
davidmbedard ....dont make me bring out my dead horse. David B
....dont make me bring out my dead horse.
David B
OK Dave--
Having not seen this before--where did you find this lovely Gif--mmmm?
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
Silver Pilot Use your layout as an example. How much distance must be between trains using the same route and how does control get changed from cab A to cab B.?
My layout is a double track continous mainline that will be about 8 scale miles long when complete.
Train lengths are typically 18-25'. Each signal block (and primary electrcal section) is about 2-3 times that, some are longer. So the short answer is the following train will not get a green until the section ahead is empty.
At each interlocking along the mainline there is a panel for turnouts and cab selection which is all done with small lighted pushbuttons. All mainline turnouts, crossovers and diverging routes are selected with the touch of one button. In other words, with a complete interlocking of two oposite crossovers and a diverging route to lets say a yard or branch, one only needs to push one button and all conflicting turnout routes are cleared to the desired route.
With the touch of one more button, the wireless cab in your hand is assigned to the next section.
The trackage through the interlocking requires no cab selection, that is automatic based on turnout position. And is done in such a way as to create a buffer section that prevents a train for over running its assigned trackage.
If you fail to properly assign your cab or align the route, the train will simply stop in the interlocking. It will not be "taken over" by anyone elses throttle.
The layout is designed to support two east bound and two west bound trains on the main, and then has 6 other cabs used in yards, industrial areas and a single track branch line.
The key here is that the layout, signal system, operational scheme and physical configuration are intergrated and designed at the same time. I realize not everyone wants/needs/can do/is interested/etc/etc in doing this.
I have designed and installed this system on an existing single track layout replacing an old rotary switch/teathered throttle system. On that layout it works a little different. It is hard to explain in words, easy to demenstrate.
Back to my layout - operators can assign their cab to a section at the interlocking control panel on either end of that section. That is why its done with lighted pushbuttons. OR they can also be assigned at a central dispatchers panel.
This system uses less than half the number of what you would call "blocks" than any conventional toggle switch/rotary switch cab control system. And, operators are not anchored to control panels but rather walk around with their wireless throttle just like a DCC layout. At any logical place they would need to change a cab assignment, an additional set of buttons can be installed, there is no limit on the number of sets of buttons a section (block) can have.
The signaling, including complete working interlocking signals, is all intergrated into the cab selction and turnout route control functions. you have your choice of full blown 3 color signals with approach signals or simplified quasi three color (using only two woking colors on each head) for less expense and easier wiring.
This only begins to explain it. I am writing a book to document it all, hope to have it done this spring. Maybe you will see it a magazine.
David,
The bunnies are great.
I don't want to beat this dead horse, but some apparently were not around when we put him down the first few times.
The book will be finished soon, if things go at least close to the current plan and then I'll just e-mail them a copy.
Soooo, technically speaking you're not flipping toggle switches. Instead you're pushing buttons along the path of the train to make a cab selection. Semantics?
Your posts make it sound like having walkaround DC cabs so you're "not anchored to control panels" is some new, amazing technology. Its been around for 30+ years and wireless DC is not new either. You talk about being able to install an additional set of pushbuttons "at any logical place they would need to change a cab assignment" as some big benefit of such a DC system. I helped build a DC control system 30 years ago that allowed multiple control panels to control a block. It wasn't difficult to do, just a lot of wiring. It's called dispatching and part of the operating scheme design for a layout. The club I was in had 6 mainline cabs, mutiple dispatching panels etc. It's how it was designed to be operated.
Walkaround DC control is easy. With tethered control you can just add a set of plug ins any "logical place" they're needed. Wireless is just some additional hardware.
What it really sounds like is that you've traded one type of complexity for a more complex system that you believe is better because it means not flipping toggle switches. To each their own.
Yeah, I'd hate for my cat to get loose and find a complex DC system. It would take forever to fix it. With DCC you just connect the 2 wires back up and you're running. A complex DC system actually sounds neat to me, but it's still limited to the configuration tha was set up some time in the past. The main difference with DCC is you can do the same things and more without any wiring, button pushing, or switch throwing except for the cab. Kind of reminds me of the Indiana Jones Scene when he confronts an swordsman who dazzles him with a show before attacking. Indiana does a duh look, pulls out his gun and shoots him. The Swordsman being the DC guy of course. Look at me and what I can do. DCC says Just do it and boom. (Here's the scene for those who never saw it)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4DzcOCyHDqc
However If a complex DC system runs well and the user's are happy with it I see no reason to change it, unless a change of the layout is planned.
Springfield PA
tomikawaTT,You mean this control panel?
And the back:
This is Cab 7 of 8 mainline DC cab panels we had at the South Shore Model Railway Club. This particular panel was built in the late 1970's along with cabs 5, 6, & 8 when the layout size was doubled. Cabs 1 to 4 were built in the early 1950's. They were in continuous use until 1998 when we moved to Hingham, MA. All 8 mainline cabs had around 50 toggles. Plus, we had 2 trolley panels, 1 narrow gauge panel, 12 yard panels, and 2 switching area panels. Most of these other panels averaged 10 to 20 toggles each.
Fun, eh?
I do respect the heck out of people who can do this stuff with DC. I know the kind of effort it takes. But I'd rather be doing other things...and I like working with electrical stuff.
Sheldon,MZL and it's like has been around for 70 years? Since 1940?And please don't bring in soldering tortoise machines. You have to do that regardless of the control system. With a DC layout, you have to do that and solder toggles/buttons. With DCC you can avoid this extra soldering if you wish to (obviously, hard-wired decoders are the exception here, but one can buy only DCC ready or DCC installed locos).While I have not operated a true MZL-like layout, I have seen DC layouts like the North Shore Model Railroad Club in Wakefield, MA and the Bay State Society of Model Engineers in Roslindale, MA. Both, before DCC, used tethered and wireless DC control systems (BSSME has three layouts: N, HO, & O). I've also been under the Museum of Science and Industry's HO layout which uses elevator control systems to run it's DC layout. I've used Aristo's radio system at the defunct & long gone Norton, MA club with rotary knobs. I don't have a lot of 1st hand knowledge in the more exotic DC systems I freely admit. But I do bring a lot of DCC and more basic DC knowledge to the table.
As to the "cheap shot"... You managed to stay out of it for 50 whole minutes...amd just 15 min. after the "cheap shot" post. And the supposed "cheap shot" was a statement of fact for many modelers. I believe that toggle flipping is more common than you think. Yet, I managed to keep from posting at all to the DC-only thread on the Electrical Forum here at MR despite numerous and real "cheap shots" from the DC users.
The big difference between a DT400 and your system is that once I plug my address into the DCC throttle, I don't have to push any more buttons no matter how long I run the train or how many other trains are running.
Paul:
Evidently my post was the one that has been referred to as the "Cheap Shot" post, and if so, I definitely apologize for the problems it has caused.
What I meant to state--and it was either mis-read or I didn't state it well--was that I'm very glad that DCC works for those who like it. It just doesn't work for my particular situation. Different strokes for different folks.
Sorry it caused all the ruckus.
Tom View my layout photos! http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/mm310/TWhite-014/Rio%20Grande%20Yuba%20River%20Sub One can NEVER have too many Articulateds!