~G4
19 Years old, modeling the Cowlitz, Chehalis, and Cascade Railroad of Western Washington in 1927 in 6X6 feet.
OK---glad to see someone opening up a can of worms to see what they look like
I'm a bit of everything myself. I don't think that there is a need to get into a period of existential angst over this split in the first place.
But some, I feel, might.
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
John,Excellent question..
As for me..I been in the hobby over 55 years and am yet to scratchbuild my first model.I never built a wood structure kit.. I have built 2 wooden caboose kits eons ago.
You see I am a very happy minimalist modeler that prefers prototype operation with plastic kit structures over building a wood kit or scratchbuilding...Of course I have kitbashed structures.
Isn't this a great hobby?
So,am I a
Scratchbuilder-no.
Craftsman-no.
A RTR''er..Perhaps
Just call me a happy minimalist modeler..
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
In my very humble opinion, it is certainly not an either/or question. Not all of us have the ability to handlay our track, scratchbuild our locos and rolling stock, detail them with selfmade castings, scratchbuild all our structures and make our trees ourselves and paint our own backdrop, just to top it off.
I have yet to see the layout where every single item has been build and not bought R-T-R or assembled.
Should we exclude someone from the hobby, because he does not have the time or the dexterity for scratchbuilding?Spare me the answer!
Here in Germany, R-T-R is much more wide-spread and the need to scratchbuild is far less, as the choice of locos is much bigger than in the US. The standardization efforts of the prototype makes it much easier to supply a full range of locos, with only very few gaps left to be covered by a number of smaller businesses offering highly detailed kits. So I guess, anybody modeling German prototype is just one lucky a guy.
I´ll stick with US prototype and I am happy that there are at least some locos and cars of my favorite road available in the market, so I don´t have to scratchbuild them, which I am not so good in - for the lack of the tools I would need to have!
After all, our common hobby leaves so much room for everybody to enjoy it!
Based on the modelers I know, or have known in my 40 years in this hobby, few modelers are one or the other.
In the old days, very little that was RTR, actually ran, at least not very well or for very long.
So we built kits for most everything, be they Athearn easy to assemble or Silver Streak "not to hard" or Ambroid "truely craftsman" kits.
Locos did come RTR or in kits, some of the RTR was pretty good for the time. Brass was expensive, but not outrageous.
TODAY, we still have nice craftsman kits, shake the box kits and a new feature - RTR that actually looks good and runs.
No mater how much of a "builder" you are, you would be silly not to take advantage of at least some of it if it suits your needs/wants.
I do it all, scratch build, assemble kits of all skill levels, kitbash - with the starting point being anything that suits the job, and I buy RTR.
All the RTR does it seems end up getting "something" done to it. I run ONLY Kadee couplers so they all get changed. I have my own prefered free rolling truck choice/formula, so most of them get changed.
I am a freelancer, so I buy a lot of undecorated or painted/unlettered and send it the paint shop to become "ATLANTIC CENTRAL"
And as I often explain, none of my fleet of RTR steam locos was RTR in my view. Not the most expensive BLI or Rivarossi pieces or my many Bachmann pieces. They all needed minor ajustments in addition to real Kadee's and my lettering. So how RTR were they?
I think the real conflict in view is not if you buy/use RTR or not, but rather your expectations of products and their prefection, preformance, operation, completeness, etc - right out of the box.
Us "modeler" types don't mind this "ajustments" we have to make, its part of the fun. And we often "revolt" when the "collector/runner" types start saying we should all demand better from the manufaturers, which would surely raise prices - no thank you.
My interest in trains is wide, BUT my model railroading GOALS are narrow. I am buiding a large but relatively simple freelanced railroad set in the Mid Atlantic of the USA in 1954. My ATLANTIC CENTRAL interchanges with the B&O, C&O an WM.
Beyond the equipment, structures, track, controls, scenery, etc I need for that, I buy NOTHING. I do not collect model trains. I am on a mission to build this and only this one model theme layout - and then to operate it in both display and prototype operation modes.
I will use any and all products to meet this goal, and will build, modify, customize, them as needed.
And, I am a bargin shopper, I'll tell you about how cheap I found this loco or that, before I brag about "how much I spent" on some brass loco.
And, I will freely admit, when talking to other modelers, if they have no interest in building a working layout, and are mainly just collectors and/or don't build anything, I get bored real fast.
This is a great and diverse hobby and we should all enjoy it as we see fit. It does however, because of its diversity, have many different sub groups of specific types of activities and interests, and those with common interests will always flock together. That's normal and healthy in my mine.
Sheldon
I've only been in this hobby for just over two years, but I'd have to question the need to include the word "versus".
Why do they need to be mutually exclusive of the other? One of the major appeals and strengths of this hobby is it's diversity (of scale, methodology, and focus) that seems to be unique to each and every hobbyist.
For instance, what's more accurate - a highrail or tinplate S scale layout that operates exactly as a prototype, or an imaginary (I think the common term here is "freelance") but scale Sn3 layout railroad that never existed? Both are different approaches that share some level of "acceptance" by people of different backgrounds and focus.
I've had the new subscriber membership to the NMRA, and I have to wonder if the MMR program has helped in creating this divide. I think it's fantastic that people work towards their MMR, and I have nothing but respect for their efforts (especially when they continue to share their knowledge!), but it doesn't diminish to me the efforts of another hobbyiest who has worked in a different direction during their free time.
The one trend that I've observed in my short time is that the best work in modeling seems to be done by the folks who are enjoying themselves first and foremost. If by enjoying themselves that means buying RTR and/or scratchbuilding or kitbashing to create a model they want, than that's alright.
Maybe it's just me though, as it seems that there is so much unnecessary Balkinization elsewhere, that I'd rather keep it out of my hobby time. But I think I'll continue to do both, buy RTR when it suits my needs, and scratchbuild or kitbash models as I need them. Having choices is a great thing!!
I'm trying to model 1956, not live in it.
dehusmanIf a modeler buys a RTR model, then he is a RTR modeler.
Hmmm....So if I scratchbuilt all the structures on my layout and fabricated all of my rolling stock and I buy ONE...just ONE RTR model that makes me a RTR modeler? Hmmmmmmm.....
How about those of us who have done all aspects of what you list above?
Lee
A RTR modeler is one who buys/acquires models of major components that are preassembled and may be used without major fabrication/assembly and uses them without major modification.
A scratchbuilder is one who builds/fabricates/assembles models of major components from basic materials or generic subassemblies (such as a motor, wheelset or light bulb).
If a modeler takes the basic materials, fabricates parts and assembles them to build a model he is a scratchbuilder.
If a manufacturer takes the basic materials, fabricates parts and sells them unassembled, its a kit.
If a modeler takes a kit or kits and builds something sustantially different than what the kit was intended to build, he is a kitbasher.
If a modeler takes a kit or kits and builds something sustantially the same as what the kit was intended to build, he is a kit builder.
If a manufacturer takes the basic materials, fabricates parts and sells them assembled, its RTR.
If a modeler buys a RTR model, then he is a RTR modeler.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
The problem is partly letting the labels be a surrogate for describing degrees or levels of skill. If you can take an Athearn blue box kit (of sainted memory) and scrape off every molded-on ladder and grab iron without ruining a rivet or disturbing the flat surface in the least and do a perfect job of installing separate grabs stirrup steps and ladders, you may not be a scratchbuilder per se but may be awesomely skilled.
If you can take a RTR unpainted car and paint and decal and weather it to the professional level I have seen some guys do -- I refer here to something well beyond just a "nice job of painting and lettering" -- then yeah you are a RTR modeler I guess but how inadequate that label becomes.
Over the years there have been guys who have laboriously milled their own wood and cast their own stone or brick walls (and it is not all that long ago that Al Armitage and others had to make their own L and H and other structural shapes out of flat strip styrene), so while we may not require that those steps be followed to qualify for a model being scratchbuilt we have to concede that it can at least be part of the equation and that there is scratchbuilding that goes beyond scratchbuilt, so to speak! NMRA contest rules have their own guidelines for these sorts of issues, but I think most people would regard a structure as scratch-built if the base, walls, framing, and roof were all individually cut from sheet material (including sheet brick, sheet wood siding, sheet roofing material etc) and assembled but the doors and windows were plastic or metal castings. If someone built their own doors and windows out of wood or styrene stock that would certainly take things to another level, just as with the person who casts their own brick or stone foundation, but I think the structure itself would be regarded as scratchbuilt under most normal uses of the word.
If I construct the basic body of a house car (box car or reefer) out of stock materials, but then add commercial grab irons, steps, ladders, brake wheel, etc., again I think most of us would either regard that car as scratchbuilt or at the very least would not bellow "You lie!" if the builder claimed it was scratchbuilt.
And then there are models that are partly or mostly scratchbuilt, such as the guys who might scratchbuild of brass or styrene a steam locomotive cab or boiler intended to fit on a Mantua or Bowser frame and chassis.
And most of us older modelers have certainly had the experience of opening a "craftsman kit" and seeing just a jumble of stuff where frankly you need a scratchbuilder's skills to construct the darn thing.
I guess it is worth adding that I have seen scratchbuilt cars and structures that were frankly awful looking -- is it the endeavor to be praised just because of what it is, or are we talking about results?
By way of analogy I regard myself as a "photographer" because I take pictures with a camera. The late Ben King was a "photographer" too, but King not only took better pictures, he built his own 35 MM cameras!
Dave Nelson
Here's my definition of RTR. Complete train layout bought and purchased in a briefcase. Simply plug and play.
Do I want one? Oh He** yes
pike-62 I know that the NMRA has a set of guide lines as to what constitutes a scratch build -vs- a kit bash.
Oh-- Kit-bashing. There's an aspect I forgot / neglected to cover. Very good point. Perhaps someone who buys all their stuff "off-the-shelf" in RTR form and then procedes to combine it into a "unique and personal" layout is a kit-basher.
And to address the previous respondant-- its all in your perspective, isn't it? Where you get the wood... did you do up your own molds to produce your own styrene brick sheets... when is it truly "scratch" and truly all "RTR" ??? I suppose someone with a deeper level of technical prowress might take someone to task if they didn't personally manipulate the molecular structure atom-by-atom to create their own materials...
Sure you might think that argument is extreme-- but really when you think about it, aren't all of the "scratchbuilding" versus "RTR" lines that get drawn pretty arbitrary?
jwhittenHere's a question which I'm sure is guaranteed to generate some interesting discussion....
...and the eventual demise of this thread. Fellas, I would LOVE to see this topic discussed in a reasonable manner. However, I do not have high hopes for it from repeated past experiences.
Just to reiterate the OP's opening statement: Please keep your responses civil and respectful and avoid the "only real MRRers..." argument. That's one way to guarantee it getting locked for sure.
Thanks,
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
Interesting subject and one I am ssure will garner a lot of discussion which will eventually break down into the usual petty bickering among a couple of members.
For the most part I like to scratch build. However, recently I was told that a project I build was not scratchbuilt but instead a collection of parts from various manifacturers. (one of the reasons I don't post much on this forum anymore). While it is true I used a comercially available motor and some trucks from the parts bin. I did hand build the entire car body and frame. I know that the NMRA has a set of guide lines as to what constitutes a scratch build -vs- a kit bash. Personaly I don't care what those are as I only build for my satisfaction now (another reason I don't post what I build here anymore). I hope this thread stays civil.
Dan
The difference lies in pre-fabrication.
To "scratchbuild" something, you don't need to cut down the tree, then mill the wood into scale lumber.
Building a model from a sheet of styrene and then adding commercial detail parts is obviously not the same thing as buying an RTR model, adding the supplied couplers, and then running it.
Here's a question which I'm sure is guaranteed to generate some interesting discussion.... just PLEASE be nice to each other, this is just for fun, okay?
There have been countless debates in countless forums for decades regarding the "veracity" of one type of "model railroading" versus another. In fact the arguments-- er, discussions invariably divide into several camps, typically the "scratchbuilders" versus the "ready-to-runners" (RTR). Accordingly each camp trots out their tired old polemics and with which promptly sets about beating the other about the head and shoulders...
I reckon it all comes down to "You just might be a Model Railroader if..."
So I'd like to ask / propose a question-- a slight variation on the classical version-- what constitutes a "scratchbuilder" and what constitutes a "Ready-to-Runner"(RTR) ??
Is this an easy question to answer? Where do you draw the line?
Is a scratchbuilder someone who meticulously constructs a model using unfrabricated source materials? Is an RTR'er someone who simply buys something off-the-shelf?
Whichever way your head is moving at the moment (up and down or left and right), is someone who buys everything "off-the-shelf" but then proceeds to combine it all in a unique and personal manner-- i.e., "builds a layout"-- *REALLY* and RTR'er? Or have they "scratchbuilt" their layout? Likewise, is someone who meticulously sets out to create a model using "unfabricated source materials" *REALLY* a scratchbuilder if they "cheat" and use plastruct, brass tubing, brick or stone wall styrene sheets, windows and door castings from third-party suppliers, etc... Really, when you think about it, aren't they simply doing the same thing? Meticulously assembling a model from "RTR" parts?
Or does sawing a piece of wood or cutting a piece of plastic exempt you from the "RTR" label? Getting glue on your fingers, banging your finger with the hammer, or any of the other myriad things that happens to us whilst we build our empires-- be they from "scratch" or "store-bought"...
Who's the scratchbuilder and who's the RTR'er ??? And how blurred are the boundaries?
John