Nice job non-the-less. If you hadn't thrown in the documentation I wouldn't have known any differnt.I see yer from Memphis,I spent Easter there with a college freind in 1963. It was a beautiful day,the magnolias were in bloom, and it was 80 deg by noon. Being young and from Montana,I was amazed. BILL
rekleinPASmith, Thats a very nice locomotive model. But at the risk of being called a rivet counter and with all due respect, I have to ask"why didn't you change the roof on the cab?" BILL
PASmith, Thats a very nice locomotive model. But at the risk of being called a rivet counter and with all due respect, I have to ask"why didn't you change the roof on the cab?" BILL
DingySP I bet you if you went out and bought all the materials you needed to build this model from scratch you would be pushing 60 bucks. I recently started scrathbuilding a train station in O scale, and I'm well over $100.00 in materials. I think you got a great deal at $60, always liked that kit. Got any pics? Tom
Tom
Really giving it some thought, I think you're right about the cost of materials/parts. It has a gazillion windows (probably over $20) and just a roll of Campbell's shingles costs about $10 or so. Here's a pic from when I was just finishing it up:
Phil, I'm not a rocket scientist; they are my students.
I'm impressed with the amount of Monty Python fans out there!!!!!
Todd
Central Illinoyz
In order to keep my position as Master and Supreme Ruler of the House, I don't argue with my wife.
I'm a small town boy. A product of two people from even smaller towns. I don’t talk on topic….. I just talk.
shayfan84325 I recently built Campbell's Grandma's House and the kit cost about $60 on ebay. It contained about $10 worth of material,
I recently built Campbell's Grandma's House and the kit cost about $60 on ebay. It contained about $10 worth of material,
shayfan84325,
I bet you if you went out and bought all the materials you needed to build this model from scratch you would be pushing 60 bucks. I recently started scrathbuilding a train station in O scale, and I'm well over $100.00 in materials. I think you got a great deal at $60, always liked that kit. Got any pics?
For me, a scratch built model starts with nothing, but plans (regardless of the source of the plans). Then the modeler acquires materials, parts, etc. and constructs it. Some of the parts may be pre-fabricated widows, trucks, detail parts, etc., but in my book the model is still scratch built.
RTR is exactly what it says: with no other work, it is ready to use.
As for me, I'm a craftsman kit addict. I love the way the manufacturer has done the tedious work of providing plans and figuring out reasonable assembly steps. I'm grateful that I don't have to spend hours searching for the right windows, doors, lumber, etc. I just open the box and start work. I recently built Campbell's Grandma's House and the kit cost about $60 on ebay. It contained about $10 worth of material, but it was the RIGHT material and I didn't have to figure out how to cut and assemble those 20 exterior wall sections (just doing it was tricky enough). I think of it as having paid $50 for someone else to do the part I don't enjoy - I'm good with that.
For me, I like being hands on with my models. I admire the modelers who look at a prototype and draw plans, buy parts, and piece together those special little components that are not available for purchase. I admire them like I admire vintage car restorers who track down a 1937 Ford wiper motor and won't settle for a '36 (even though it's the same as a '37). For me, it's just not that much fun to be so committed to detail - I build kits because I like to BUILD; I built a hotrod for the same reason (research just ain't my bag). In my hobbies I maximize the parts that are fun and minimize the parts that are less fun. My guess is that we are all like that; we do this for fun and do it in a way that gives us the MOST fun.
PASMITH
That's really slick. Do you have photos of more someplace? Or your layout I could go see?
John
andrechapelon How would you label me, since so many seem intent on labels? Depends, Dave, on what kind of side effects you can cause. If you can cause drowsiness, thoughts of suicide, oily discharge, ringing in the ears, nausea, vomiting, headaches, irritability and stroke, we gotta go with the the full FDA warning. Otherwise, we don't need no stinking labels. Andre
How would you label me, since so many seem intent on labels?
Depends, Dave, on what kind of side effects you can cause. If you can cause drowsiness, thoughts of suicide, oily discharge, ringing in the ears, nausea, vomiting, headaches, irritability and stroke, we gotta go with the the full FDA warning.
Otherwise, we don't need no stinking labels.
Andre
I always thought that labels were just a convenient way to work around certain modes of "production" as it were. For example, I "scratchbuilt" a whole pile of elevators. I bought a "ready to run" locomotive. I had to "kitbash" this warehouse to fit this space.
Not labels on a specimen jar.
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
jwhittenPASMITHIt's great to see this thread has already reached 5 pages. Peter Smith, Memphis That's a nice model Peter, how long have you been working on it?john
PASMITHIt's great to see this thread has already reached 5 pages. Peter Smith, Memphis
That's a nice model Peter, how long have you been working on it?
john
Dave VollmerHow would you label me, since so many seem intent on labels?
A Model Railroader like most everyone else. (and a darn good one I might add).
I also identify with your direction when it comes to structures. I have yet to purchase a prebuilt, but that is not to say I won't ever. I build mainly kits, not for really any other reason than I enjoy building models. Has nothing to do with they way I feel it should or should not be done. And I have scratchbuilt several structures because they aren't available (such as a Whataburger or the Post Ofice at Luckenbach) or a structure existed but not to my liking (such as a barn and a warehouse) and it seemed easier and far less expensive just to scratch build it than to bash it from two or more kits. They are far from perfect, and I do mean far, and wouldn't hold a candle to what I see some of you guys put out, but I'm learning and as I get better, I can always make another and replace them if I choose.
When it comes to rolling stock I try to choose kits, but RTR is chosen just as much. Just depends on what's staring me in the face.
Loco's RTR.
But that is all MY choice at this point and at my experience level. Everyone is different and in no way do I think my, or anyone elses for that matter, approach is the right way. Shoot, put 100 Modeler's in a room and ask them which glue is the best all around brand and type of glue for styrene and see how many different "bests" you get. If you can't get all to agree to that, how can they agree on the topic?
richg1998 I will try very hard not to make this very complicated. When I cannot find what I want, I scratch build it. When I find something RTR that I like, I buy it. I hope this is not to involved for some of you. I am not very good with words.Rich
I will try very hard not to make this very complicated.
When I cannot find what I want, I scratch build it. When I find something RTR that I like, I buy it.
I hope this is not to involved for some of you. I am not very good with words.
Rich
This post is perhaps the most correct description of what model railroading is all about from what I can tell. If it's what you need, and it's available RTR (like a MicroTrains Penn Central X78 boxcar, correct down to the last stencil), would you NOT buy it just so you can scratchbuild it out of styrene? Granted, a few may, but most won't.
I buy RTR cars/locos if they fit what I need. I always weather them slightly, and most locos also get some road-specific detailing (like cab signal boxes, additional paint, Trainphone antennas as appropriate), and any of my freight cars from the 1970s get ACI decals. But for the MOST part they're RTR.
When something is NOT available RTR (for example, the PCM PRR M1 4-8-2 announced in 2004 but never made), I don't sit paralyzed. I kitbash the 90% solution and move on.
Structures for me are the opposite... I always go for the kit first. Only if a badly needed structure is available only as RTR and NOT in kit form do I bite the bullet and buy an RTR structure. This is because I paint every structure that ends up on my layout, and it's MUCH easier to paint a kit before it's assembled.
Lastly, when something is either completely unavailable or unobtainable either through kitbash or through extreme cost, or is simple enough that it would be a waste to buy, I scratchbuild. Sometimes, too, I know I can scratchbuild something better than what's available commercially for a specific application, so I go that route. But not often.
I humbly submit that most model railroaders, consciously or not, subscribe to a similar set of guidelines, though their thresholds may vary from mine.
In other words, labels are pointless, as Dave B pointed out earlier. Model railroading, to me, is about how all of those elements come together.
Modeling the Rio Grande Southern First District circa 1938-1946 in HOn3.
Without intending to make this sound like an opinion on what a person feels they are or what someone else is, and after reading all the posts, I have come to this conclusion.
RTR's are pretty cut and dried. As are kitbuilding and kitbashing. But scratchbuilding. Now what constitutes scratchbuilding and at what point does it become kitbashing. Or does it as long as there is no kit involved.
OR, do we just want to let the sleeping dog lie.
EDIT: I am not refering to a person being a scratchbuilder or not, rather the specific project being a scratchbuilt project or ..... what if say one project involves ready made doors and windows and another uses strip styrene and hand makes the windows, doors, whatever. I myself am more curious than caring, though I guess I do or I wouldn't have asked, because quite frankly I agree with the majority who say it's all Model Railroading in one form or another and it's all for leisure and enjoyment to take the stress out of our lives with a hobby. A label is un necessary and is actually detrimental if applied to a person. IMHO.
Here is my .
RTR : open the box and on the layout, no adjustments needed or desired.
Upgraded RTR : replace couplers, wheels, weathering etc. anything that maintains the units integrity while making it look used.
Kitbashing : taking one thing and making something different out of it For example, taking a Bachmann 2-8-0 and making it into a 2-8-0 Camelback (yes there were some)
Scratchbuilding: buying and or making all the parts for something and building it from the ground up. for example, building the bolsters and underframe for a 1900s flat coal gon,building up the sides board by board (wood or styrene) adding the outside bracing and all the rest. Trucks would have to be purchased unless someone has the time and metalworking skills to make them .
I do agree that we are all Model Railroaders, I think at different times we all have to do a bit of everything to get where we are going in the hobby. I don't think that there is a correct answer or philosophy except the one that works best for each of us.
reklein It would be interesting to see an uncontest of some sort,where every participant built the same model. Maybe just a thread labeled say"lets see your version of the Walthers mine". Just for "funsies".
It would be interesting to see an uncontest of some sort,where every participant built the same model. Maybe just a thread labeled say"lets see your version of the Walthers mine". Just for "funsies".
IIRC, the first year the UTU 'Best Caboose' contest was included in the NMRA National Convention the prototype was specified - the 4-wheel hack where the Union was founded in 1879. Any scale, any choice or combination of commercial and scratchbuilt details, any material from cardstock to brass - but it had to be that one caboose.
They got a tableful, many from modelers who modeled prototypes that never had track within a thousand miles of Northeastern Pennsylvania.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - with 4-wheel brake vans)
Sir Madog I am surprised, that this thread has reached page 6 without entering into the heated debate this issue usually ends up in, forcing the mods to declare an end. But what have we learned so far? I am afraid, nothing new. There are as many different kinds of model railroaders as there are people and there is an industry, that caters for the specific needs of all, well, almost all. Kit-, scratch building, RTR - there is room for all kind of aspects, for all kind of gauges, for all kind of prototypes, regions - you name it! This variety makes the hobby the most fascinating one and us model railroaders a great bunch of people. Let´s not spoil the fun we are having by putting up boundaries and categories!
I am surprised, that this thread has reached page 6 without entering into the heated debate this issue usually ends up in, forcing the mods to declare an end.
But what have we learned so far?
I am afraid, nothing new. There are as many different kinds of model railroaders as there are people and there is an industry, that caters for the specific needs of all, well, almost all. Kit-, scratch building, RTR - there is room for all kind of aspects, for all kind of gauges, for all kind of prototypes, regions - you name it! This variety makes the hobby the most fascinating one and us model railroaders a great bunch of people.
Let´s not spoil the fun we are having by putting up boundaries and categories!
Every time I see people trying to build walls around themselves/others, I hop into the cockpit, fire up the engine, engage the lift fans and rise above it all, observing the 'categorizers' and the 'includers' with wry good humor while enjoying the entire panoramic view. Then I fly off to observe either some prototype I have enjoyed in the past or one I had never before considered.
Granted that my MODELING is concerned with only one very limited prototype (one place, one month) my INTERESTS span both of the spectra I listed in earlier posts and a bunch of others I haven't mentioned. Whatever you are doing, even if it's the Gomez Addams thing, I will derive some satisfaction if you are having fun.
Gentlefolk, over to you.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - railfanning the real and model world)
rekleinIt would be interesting to see an uncontest of some sort,where every participant built the same model. Maybe just a thread labeled say"lets see your version of the Walthers mine". Just for "funsies".
CNJ831:
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
steinjrfeel free to find a suitable label for me :-)
As you wish.
How about...
ummm...
(thinking )
Model Railroader !!!
jwhitten I just wanted to find out how people defined scratch-builders and rtr'ers relative to what is actually produced
I just wanted to find out how people defined scratch-builders and rtr'ers relative to what is actually produced
And you have gotten exactly the answers that were totally predicable when you posted your thread.
People simply do not fall into neat simple little categories - all human beings are members of a large number of groups at any one time, and also more or less constantly move around from one group to the other at various times.
Pretty much all of us buy some stuff ready made, make something from kits (kitbashed or straight up) and scratchbuild something.
The things on a layout people are most likely to buy ready to use is engines, with rolling stock as the second item on the list.
Relatively few people buy a motor, gears, trucks and build/assemble a locomotive from scratch from such components and brass (for the frame) and sheet styrene (or whatever people use for the top and sides of an engine).
Scratch built locomotives is fairly hard to build. Or at least - most of us think it would be fairly hard, and thus don't dare to start on such a project.
If anyone wants to start a thread showing how to get parts, and how to scratch build e.g. an H0 scale doodlebug or a traction engine or something - feel free to do that - I bet it would be interesting to learn for a lot of us.
Freight and passenger cars - most people also buy most of their rolling stock ready to run. But quite a few people also routinely replace all their couplers with Kadee or Sergent (sp?) couplers, replace plastic wheels with metal wheels and add weight to their cars to make them stay better on the track. Or strip the old paint and repaint them in their desired colors. Or weather their cars.
Again - if anyone wants to do a thread on how they do their tuneup of newly bought cars - feel free to go ahead. We can all learn new tricks from each other.
Same with modifying/rebuilding cars to make them more like the prototype car you want to model - removing or adding parts or whatever. It is interesting to see what others do with their cars.
Buildings and others structures (bridges, signs, signals or whatever) - relatively few people buy all their buildings already assembled and painted and plop them on their layout unaltered.
Some people build kits as designed, some modify kits, some use kits as just a collection of parts, some prefer to build their buildings by starting out from styrene sheets, paper, wood, metal or what have you.
Again - if people do buildings in a way they think others might have an interest in seeing, feel free to post to show what you are doing.
Terrain and landscapes - again - it can be interesting to see how people do things. Very few people buy their layouts with landscapes already made and painted, with grass added and what not.
Mind you - I am not calling for any earnest young teenagers to do an excruciatingly detailed step-by-step guide illustrated with 250 out-of-focus pictures on "how to build a basic Walthers Cornerstone building" or "how to add plaster cloth over chicken wire" or similar teach-your-grandma-to-suck-eggs subjects.
But it would be a lot more interesting if people actually discussed modeling techniques, tricks and tips, instead of trying to create definitions for how to classify people into some overly simpleminded category or other.
Grin,Stein, who put some things on the layout as it come out of the box, build some kits according to instructions, do some kitbashing and some scratchbuilding - feel free to find a suitable label for me :-)
CNJ831While the end product may appear similar, or even identical, the process by which each reaches fruition is totally different. A builder of a kit had to exhibit a talent for construction, painting and weathering for the finished model to look any good.
That's also a very good observation.
CNJ831The only talent exhibited by the person with the RTR example was that of opening his wallet.
I understand your meaning, but I think the only way that could be true for a "layout builder", for example, is if they contacted a layout building service and said I want to buy layout #1 in your catalog exactly the way it comes with no modifications or customizations.
Suppose someone goes out and buys Siever's benchwork (or some other brand, not singling them out), a handful of structures (we'll say already-constructed), some locos, some rolling stock-- all RTR, etc-- and using all of those RTR (store-bought) parts builds a "unique and personal" layout, is it "scratchbuilt" or not? After all, we're presuming (I am at least) that someone else's attempt from the *exact same set of parts* would also be "unique and personal", and thus different from the first person's. So the essential quality-- as I'm coming to view it-- is the "vision" that someone has that guides them in the process. Although I suppose I could equally accept that the process might alternately (or even more correctly) be called "kit-bashing" or some such and not truly "scratch building".
I think the subject has been well-covered from many angles at this point so I suppose I'm really only expressing my own personal opinion here.
But, factoring in the rest of your remark, "The only talent exhibited by the person with the RTR example was that of opening his wallet.", I suppose there is a point made there as well, with respect to "vision"-- if you specify all of the vision but contribute none of the actual labor involved needed to bring it to fruition, it seems a little difficult to consider that a true "art", again my opinion. So perhaps another essential ingredient is being "personally involved" in the creation.
However it shakes out, its very clear from the number and depth of responses that it is not a simple cut-n-dried issue.
fwrightIn my not so humble opinion, trying to arrive at consensus definitions is not worth the effort.
I wasn't even trying to come up with consensus opinions, I just wanted to hear what everybody (anybody) had to say on the subject-- what they feel scratchbuilding or rtr means, and especially in the context of building a "layout", which is a large and complex things, and -- in my own view-- is of approximate difficulty / complexity (so far as to be able to make a comparison) that one might be able to make a philosophical statement that the "layout is scratchbuilt", even if it was assembled with essentially all RTR materials-- i.e., the outcome (the layout) transcends its parts (all the RTR stuff). And to be fair to both camps (and if there are others, I didn't intentionally neglect them), posited the question from both viewpoints.
However, one respondant did point out that there is another category which I should have considered and included-- that of kit-bashing, which perhaps might have been yet another possibility for the aforementioned layout builder.
Just to be excruciatingly clear-- I don't really give a rat's patootie who's a what-- as far as labels go-- and I hope to someday meet every single one of you at some point, view your creations-- layouts, models, you name it-- whatever makes you a Model Railroader-- and enjoy what you have to offer, and be glad we have such a fun and diverse hobby.
And I said it earlier and I'll say it again-- THANK YOU everyone for all of your replies and opinions. You've really hit upon many facets of the subject, in fact a few I hadn't even considered (!!!) And if anybody has anything additional to add, or another viewpoint, I'd love to hear about that too.
As far as labels go, this is my only determination-- if you say you're a Model Railroader you *are* a Model Railroader-- you don't need to do or "prove" anything else to me or anybody, in my opinion. If you want to be considered amongst the ranks of Model Railroaders, that desire and intent should be enough to make it so. Everything else is splitting hairs and being finicky-- in my book at least. But we can still discuss what we mean by the various terms and have some fun in the process-- I hope!
Scarpiathey're just kit builders according to the categories the original poster would like to put on everyone.
I did not attempt to "put categories on everyone", and moreover my first sentence stated that this whole discussion was "just for fun".
I just wanted to find out how people defined scratch-builders and rtr'ers relative to what is actually produced-- in fact, your example of someone who buys a kit and assembles it exactly as intended is *precisely* the point I was attempting to discern-- i.e., the underlying "philosophical" aspect (philosophy) underlying the terms.
"J.W."
(aka Jwhitten, aka John)
Milepost 266.2What about people who build everything from kits, but never modify anything? Every car is built exactly as it comes, no upgraded or corrected parts, doors, etc. If they buy the Walthers New River Mine, they build the New River Mine. They're not RTR modelers, but the end result is essentially the same, isn't it?
While the end product may appear similar, or even identical, the process by which each reaches fruition is totally different. A builder of a kit had to exhibit a talent for construction, painting and weathering for the finished model to look any good. The only talent exhibited by the person with the RTR example was that of opening his wallet.
Like it or not, the hobby of model railroading has been regarded as a craftsman's hobby since its inception three-quarters of a century ago. As such, it is as much about developing one's talents and skills for model making, as it is about the running of miniature trains. If one totally eliminates the talent/skill/creativity aspects from the hobby it leaves the supposed model railroader as no different from the juveniles who played with their Lionels and Flyers back in the 1950's.
CNJ831