Almost all my kits are built as designed. If I didn't like the way it was designed and it didn't fit the space available, I probably wouldn't have bought it in th first place. If I vary from the instructions, it is usually leaving off some detail that looks like a pain in the ___ to assemble, not to enhance the end product. I have only a couple of structures on the layout that I would call true kitbashes. One is a large passenger station that combined platforms from Vollmer's Baden-Baden station with a modular building. A series of lucky coincidences allowed the building to mate almost perfectly with the station side platform. The other kitbash is an old Walthers Paper Mill kit which was essentially a couple boxy structures that I cut and pasted into a long shallow background complex, combining it with several modular structures.
I am in two camps - scratch builder and RTR. I enjoy scratch building but find kits frustrating. I find scratch building much more enjoyable than assembling a kit because I can build it MY way. If a piece of equipment I want is available in RTR, I will buy it. Why try to reinvent the wheel by building it.
Milepost 266.2What about people who build everything from kits, but never modify anything? Every car is built exactly as it comes, no upgraded or corrected parts, doors, etc. If they buy the Walthers New River Mine, they build the New River Mine. They're not RTR modelers, but the end result is essentially the same, isn't it?
For me, that's a very good--but tricky question. I'd say that RTR is what you get out of the box ready to go on the layout, not something you put together--even if you do it as per the instructions. That to me, is 'kit-building', and even if you follow the instructions to the letter, there's still the opportunity to 'adjust' things to your own personal satisfaction.
Funny you should mention the "New River Mine" which is of course based on a Colorado coal mine. When I looked at the photo of the kit, I thought, "Wow, the basic structure is very close to some of the large gold mines we had here in California in the first part of the 20th Century." So I bought it. Put the basic structure together (without gluing it) and decided where it worked for me and where it really didn't, then adjusted some of the structure to what I figured would work for the basic stamping mill at a rather large gold mine complex in my home town. Some of it (the coal chutes) was discarded, other parts were adjusted, and even though the basic building LOOKS a lot like the original Walther's kit (the contours of the main building work very well for 'stamping' of the ore, just like the original building works for the sorting of coal), there were other adjustments that I could do that actually turned it into a working early 20th century gold processing mine. So, of course, what I ended up doing was "Kit-bashing" one type of mine building into another, but with MINOR 'tweaks.'
But for someone who builds the kit as per the instructions, I really wouldn't call it 'ready to run'. For me, 'ready to run' is lifting the completed pre-built structure out of the box and putting it on the MR as is. Just as RTR is taking a completed car out of the box and putting it on the tracks.
So I understand what you're getting at, but in all honesty, I think it's coming down to "Labels" again. And seriously, I can tell you that even my RTR rolling stock very seldom hits the rails without either coupler or wheel replacement (sometimes both).
'Tis a conundrum, I think.
Tom
Tom View my layout photos! http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/mm310/TWhite-014/Rio%20Grande%20Yuba%20River%20Sub One can NEVER have too many Articulateds!
Very interesting question..
Even tho' I build my structures per directions I end up either adding detail or omitting some minor detail and that as become by trademark.Yet I don't consider myself a kitbasher because I follow the kit's directions and never used 2 or more kits to make a completely different structure
I don't even consider this a kitbash because I use 2 kits of the same building to get a larger elevator..
.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
I will try very hard not to make this very complicated.
When I cannot find what I want, I scratch build it. When I find something RTR that I like, I buy it.
I hope this is not to involved for some of you. I am not very good with words.
Rich
If you ever fall over in public, pick yourself up and say “sorry it’s been a while since I inhabited a body.” And just walk away.
This is a great point. For example, folks can spend a lot of $$ for a craftsman kit that they want to build as it was designed....after all, that's why they bought it. In essence though, they're just kit builders according to the categories the original poster would like to put on everyone.
*** it, I keep trying to force them into a box, but these things just don't fit. Who designed these god *** model railroaders anyway?
Pish Posh, don't mind this - I'm just Mary Lincoln, right JW?
I'm trying to model 1956, not live in it.
In my not so humble opinion, trying to arrive at consensus definitions is not worth the effort. Look at what the NMRA goes through for their contests.
In my world, anybody that is faster than me (and that's most) is a runner. Anybody that is slower than me is a jogger.
I use the same scheme in model railroading. Anybody that is better than me - however I define better - is a "real model railroader". Anybody that isn't better than me - to use CNJ's term - may or may not be a "dabbler", depending on how I feel about them personally.
Is that subjective enough?
The RTR movement has brought more variety of goods to the model railroad market than I would ever have dreamed possible 30 or 40 years ago. The RTR proliferation also demands a much larger wallet, but it makes possible a lot more reasonable quality larger layouts than in the past. Since I don't have much money, time, or space, the RTR world matters little to me other than making a wider variety of stuff available than in the past.
Out of production kit availability is actually higher these days than it used to be. A British mr magazine poll once claimed that 75% of kits sold never got built by their 1st owners. These kits come to eBay and other venues as many of the aging owners realize that they'd rather have the improved RTR than struggle with an old kit. So I'm a happy camper regardless.
And if I ever develop my skills enough to scratchbuild, I'm imagine I'll be happy doing that, too.
Model railroading is fun...even if you are not a real model railroader.
Fred W
jwhitten Please go back and re-read my original question -- it was not about who's a what, it was about the terms themselves-- how people define them, where the boundaries are, etc.
Please go back and re-read my original question -- it was not about who's a what, it was about the terms themselves-- how people define them, where the boundaries are, etc.
Speaking for myself, I simply define myself as a model railroader. Model railroading incorporates numerous hobbies under one umbrella. Some of them I enjoy and I am good at. Others I am not good at and don't enjoy doing. If it is possible to pay to have those aspects done for me and I can afford it, that is the route I choose to go. I am building a very large layout and it is very slow going. It has taken me much longer to complete this than I ever anticipated. If I can take advantage of RTR to shorten the process, I will do so.
Perhaps someday, I will get the railroad built to a reasonably complete level and that will afford me the time to try my hand at scratchbuilding, but that just isn't in the cards right now.
Thank you everybody for your answers and opinions!
I have enjoyed reading through all of your replies!
IRONROOSTERI am a builder and operator of layouts. I use and do whatever it takes to satisfy my own desires.
I am a builder and operator of layouts. I use and do whatever it takes to satisfy my own desires.
I agree Paul, if a RTR model fits both the situation at hand and my purposes, then why not use it? Perhaps in an ideal setting I would build many more components of my layout from the ground up; but right now that is simply not feasible. The reality for me is that I dont have all that much time to devote to my trains. I go to college about 2900 miles away from home (trains and layout included). About 7-8 months out of the year I probably wont be seeing much of my trains. Similarly, when I am home I dont spend every waking hour with my trains. I have friends and other hobbies that take up my time. This being said, when I do have some train time, I'd like it to be spent running trains (my favorite part of the hobby). I can achieve this with a relatively small time budget through using RTR components, though many are modified to some extent. They do exactly what I want while giving me more time to run trains.
-Cahrn
Marc_Magnus Big debate, which I believe is not very important in the fact.So for me I don't want to know if it's a scratchbuilder or a RTR guy, the only thing which count for me is the appearance of the layout and the whole effect it could have when seeing it. I think also it's somewhere sad to put the people in one category or another, and more over in this hobby. So I like to show my work and share it (see WPF of this week end), I like to answer about basic topic or elaborated ones, but don't care about to be named a scratchbuilder or a RTR railroader, I just want your appreciation.Marc
Big debate, which I believe is not very important in the fact.
I think also it's somewhere sad to put the people in one category or another, and more over in this hobby.
So I like to show my work and share it (see WPF of this week end), I like to answer about basic topic or elaborated ones, but don't care about to be named a scratchbuilder or a RTR railroader, I just want your appreciation.
Marc
Marc, you have put it to the point - thank you!
Hello Guys,
Big debate, which I beleive is not very important in the fact.
If we go to the dictionnary the "scratchbuilder" is the one who build something from "nothing".
Yes it's great to start a project from your only idea and build something which is not avaible RTR.
I have seen numerous scratchbuild items which often are some artistic models whith so much details and quality construction that you could beleive the real thing was scaled down.
On the other side there are wonderful layouts using a lot of RTR items; but whith a good construction, nice weathering and good use in the scenery, (by example DPM structures).
By example, take a look at all the RTR cars and loco's we use and which are just wheatered and look so great.
So for me I don't want to know if it's a scratchbuilder or a RTR guy, the only thing which count for me is the appearance of the layout and the whole effect it could have when seeing it.
The rest are debate about if I can say, just a kind of philosophy, like so many things,but it's not the essential about what I am expecting.
Of course it's only my opinion.
Anyway, it's nice to see the interest about this topic, I never thingh it could generate so much answers.
IRONROOSTERI reject both labels. In the past I have scratchbuilt including building the windows, craftsman kit built, shake the box kit built, screwdriver kit built, plunked RTR out of the box on the layout. I expect I'll do all of it again in the future, but none of those define my approach to the hobby.
Well said Paul... All theses technics and products meet a need. It's nice to get an excellent RTR kit when available and it's equally nice to kitbash a loco to fit what you need. It scratchbuild structure I can't find on the market, I kitbash those that need to be tweaked to fit my layout and love when some manufacturer produce a kit dear to me. It would be futile to draw a line between both approach since almost every hobbyist have to deal with them at some point... But there's always purists that will nag about what's good, what's wrong, how they do the "right" thing on their ghost layout nobody ever say...
IRONROOSTER I use and do whatever it takes to satisfy my own desires.
In an other way, I respect modelists that decide to do everything by themselves as a personnal challenge and to ensure the consistency of their special project. And the same for people that just want to run their trains. I think this issue have been debated thousand and thousand of times. I'm lurking here from time to time and always see this kind of thread going on. If I was following my LHS' opinions, I would do nothing and quit the hobby right on the spot!!!
Matt, the guy that is stating things that sounds to have been said more than once...
Proudly modelling the Quebec Railway Light & Power Co since 1997.
http://www.hedley-junction.blogspot.com
http://www.harlem-station.blogspot.com
I reject both labels. In the past I have scratchbuilt including building the windows, craftsman kit built, shake the box kit built, screwdriver kit built, plunked RTR out of the box on the layout. I expect I'll do all of it again in the future, but none of those define my approach to the hobby.
I am a builder and operator of layouts. I use and do whatever it takes to satisfy my own desires. Having just bought my retirement house I will be building the "big one" in 1200 sq ft or so. I don't expect to ever be finished, but I do expect to run trains within 2 years (I'm not retired yet so it'll take a while + the basement isn't finished yet).
What makes this hobby so great is all the different ways you can do things.
Enjoy
Paul
Wow. On the fourth page and I'll have to say there is at LEAST some part of something everyone says that I agree with.
For what it's worth, a more direct answer of my opinion is, that the line between the types of model building, not the modeler type or label, is very opinionated based on what the individual modeler defines as a dividing point. I don't believe it will ever be cut and dried like what is 2 plus 2 or even what is the difference between a Union Laboror or an Operator. There is a difference, but at what point does it change is the sticking point. Even if the NMRA comes up with a strict definition I don't believe it will be readily accepted by every single one of us.
twhiteSo what I'm trying to say, at least from my own personal viewpoint and experience in the hobby, is that the various 'approaches' (and I hesitate to call them "Labels")--RTR, Kit-bashing, Scratch-Building--often get blurred into one another, depending on the project at hand.
Or, might I suggest, the opinion or feelings, of the modeler.
EDIT: OK 5th page.
Todd
Central Illinoyz
In order to keep my position as Master and Supreme Ruler of the House, I don't argue with my wife.
I'm a small town boy. A product of two people from even smaller towns. I don’t talk on topic….. I just talk.
John:
I'll try and answer your question from a purely personal standpoint, having been in this hobby for a large number of years.
For me, frankly, the definitions get blurred depending on the project at hand. I suppose the definition that matches my own modeling would be "Kit-Basher". I've never built a locomotive from 'scratch', but I've 'rebuilt' a number of steamers (yes, even--GASP!--brass ones ) to at least represent the kind of prototype that I've needed and have not been commercially available.
Several projects (especially 'foresting' my layout) require me to use materials in combinations that perhaps the materials weren't originally designed for. Does that make me a 'Scratch-Builder' or a 'Kit Basher"? I really don't know. Are home-made evergreen trees 'Scratch-built' or 'Kit-Bashed' ? Darned if I know, LOL!
I've 'adjusted' and 'adapted' several bridge kits for my MR. Yes, those are 'Kit-Bashed'. Also, most of my structures. The scenery is 'scratch-built'. Wait a minute, the scenery is composed of commercially available plaster cloth, foam, rock castings, hydrocal, Sculptamold---
A lot of my rolling stock is RTR. Except for wheels and couplers. So they're not 'really' RTR, according to some criteria. Some of them are kits, everything from 'shake the box' to Craftsman wood, resin and metal. And even the Craftsman kits usually either have added trucks and couplers, or couplers changed out.
So what I'm trying to say, at least from my own personal viewpoint and experience in the hobby, is that the various 'approaches' (and I hesitate to call them "Labels")--RTR, Kit-bashing, Scratch-Building--often get blurred into one another, depending on the project at hand.
Hope I haven't confused the issue further.
jwhitten Is a scratchbuilder someone who meticulously constructs a model using unfabricated source materials?
Is a scratchbuilder someone who meticulously constructs a model using unfabricated source materials?
Its about how the major parts of the final product are fabricated and assembled. If the walls and roof of the building or boxcar is part of a kit, and assembled in the way they were designed to, then it is not scratchbuilt. If you use the major parts of a kit to construct your own creation, hacking up walls, or adding your own fabricated walls in places, then something should be considered scratchbuilt.
- Douglas
What about the layout?
Well, what about it. If you want another spectrum:
And what about the people who do one, several or all of the above? Last time I looked they were model railroaders.
Chuck (Who has been several of the above, modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
jwhittenHere's a question which I'm sure is guaranteed to generate some interesting discussion....
Yes, to say the least.
From Wiki: (I'm pretty much in agreement)
Scratch building is the process of building a scale model "from scratch", ie. from raw materials, rather than building it from a commercial kit, kitbashing or buying it pre-assembled.
Scratch building is easiest if original plans of the subject exist; however, many models have been built from photographs by measuring a known object in the photograph and extrapolating the rest of the dimensions. The necessary parts are then fashioned out of a suitable material, such as wood, plastic, plaster, clay, metal, polymer clay, or even paper, and then assembled. Some purists consider a model not to be truly scratchbuilt unless all of the parts were made from raw materials. However most modellers would consider a model including commercial detail parts as scratchbuilt.
The reasons hobbyists scratchbuild may vary. Often a desired model is unavailable in kit form in the desired scale, or entirely non-existent. Sometimes the hobbyist may be dissatisfied with the accuracy or detail of kits that are available. Other times a hobbyist will opt to scratchbuild simply for the challenge. Less frequently a hobbyist will scratchbuild out of economy, as sometimes the raw materials cost less than a packaged commercial kit.
Sure it is. My question is not about "Who's a what" but rather how people define the terms-- what constitutes what.
This thread is starting to sound like an Abbott and Costello routine.
No, no, no. Who's on first, what's on second and I don't know's on third.
IOW, if you know who's who and what's what you can close the book on the whole thing because that's that.
Don't ask Why since he's way out in left field.
Andre
davidmbedard Please go back and re-read my original question -- it was not about who's a what, it was about the terms themselves-- how people define them, where the boundaries are, etc. Did I read this wrong? Who's the scratchbuilder and who's the RTR'er ??? And how blurred are the boundaries? It sure looks like labels to me.......? David B
Did I read this wrong?
Who's the scratchbuilder and who's the RTR'er ??? And how blurred are the boundaries?
It sure looks like labels to me.......?
David B
That was, more or less, what was at base in my can of worms comment.
That can be an issue.
Maybe rephrasing the question like this---
" what do these terms-scratchbuilding, RTR-ing and kitbashing/building mean to you?"
----might have helped
I think this is a matter of who is doing the reading as much as the writing. But it is in that writing that one draws out those inferences. To me those terms are not as sharply "labelistc"---sheeesh, that word looks odd----as they might appear to someone else. I can see, though, that it can become a problem.
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
jwhittenScarpiaThe one trend that I've observed in my short time is that the best work in modeling seems to be done by the folks who are enjoying themselves first and foremost. If by enjoying themselves that means buying RTR and/or scratchbuilding or kitbashing to create a model they want, than that's alright. Of course and absolutely.But aside from that Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?
ScarpiaThe one trend that I've observed in my short time is that the best work in modeling seems to be done by the folks who are enjoying themselves first and foremost. If by enjoying themselves that means buying RTR and/or scratchbuilding or kitbashing to create a model they want, than that's alright.
Of course and absolutely.
But aside from that Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?
I'm afraid I don't follow you here, and I'll put it down to a definite lack of sophistication on my part.
I guess I will chime in.
I buy RTR cars, engines, etc...... I'm not much of a "scratch builder" at all!!! I would like to be able to build my own buildings. I don't think I would go as far as building my own cars, or even more........turnouts or track laying.
If I build a building for my layout, its not the best in the world, but I'm happy with it. Nothing like some modles I've seen, believe me.
I guess what I'm saying is......
I would like to build something (building , etc..), but I don't think I can, well at least half decent looking. So I will spend the extra and get it ready to go.
"Rust, whats not to love?"
selectorNot always, but mostly, and the finer the kit, the less I enjoyed the experience or found I was happy with the results.
That's an interesting thought-- I can understand your viewpoint. Sometimes there is some fun in "getting there" and sometimes there can be too much "getting there" that gets in the way of the fun.
davidmbedardLabels, labels, labels. There is not another topic that will garner more arguments than labels.Even if we label ourselves oneway, others will look at us differently.The question is why use labels and why are they so important? Why is it when we introduce ourselves, some people prefer to be called Dr. rather than Mr? Do labels give us our identity or do we use it as a way to differentiate? To make us special? So we can be grouped in the subset of our society called Dr.? Are they there to tell others about our achievements? Do I introduce myself as Dave the scratchbuilder or Dave the Modelrailroader? In our hobby (and notice the word "our), we are all labeled, like it or not. These labels come quickly as someone talks to us or sees our work...it is called a judgement.Now, in terms of the OPs' question, scratchbuilder vs RTR'er.........why make such labels in this hobby? They sound absolute and exclusive. Personally, I enjoy some RTR stuff, and I also Scratchbuild from time to time. Each has it's place, and each it's reward.Now, if I change out the couplers on an RTR unit, wouldnt that make it not so RTR? OTOH, if I use commercially available drivers for my Scratchbuilt steamer, does that make it a kit bash instead? I will submit to you that RTR and Scratchbuilt book-end a whole slew of labels what are a part of our hobby. And I submit the list as is follows (and should be used to describe the MODEL, not the MODELER).RTR out of the box.Added/changed Couplers to RTRAdded/changed Couplers/Trucks to RTRAssembled KitAssembled Kit with other MFG detail pieces/trucks added/changedKit bashed model with 2 or more MFG kits involvedScratchbuilt model with other MRG parts added.Scratchbuilt model with MFG couplers/trucks addedScratchbuilt model with MFG couplers addedScratchbuilt model with NO MFG parts involved. Feel free to discuss my list. I dont care for labels, but this list shows how one label will run into another.David B
Labels, labels, labels. There is not another topic that will garner more arguments than labels.
Even if we label ourselves oneway, others will look at us differently.
The question is why use labels and why are they so important? Why is it when we introduce ourselves, some people prefer to be called Dr. rather than Mr? Do labels give us our identity or do we use it as a way to differentiate? To make us special? So we can be grouped in the subset of our society called Dr.? Are they there to tell others about our achievements? Do I introduce myself as Dave the scratchbuilder or Dave the Modelrailroader?
In our hobby (and notice the word "our), we are all labeled, like it or not. These labels come quickly as someone talks to us or sees our work...it is called a judgement.
Now, in terms of the OPs' question, scratchbuilder vs RTR'er.........why make such labels in this hobby? They sound absolute and exclusive.
Personally, I enjoy some RTR stuff, and I also Scratchbuild from time to time. Each has it's place, and each it's reward.
Now, if I change out the couplers on an RTR unit, wouldnt that make it not so RTR?
OTOH, if I use commercially available drivers for my Scratchbuilt steamer, does that make it a kit bash instead?
I will submit to you that RTR and Scratchbuilt book-end a whole slew of labels what are a part of our hobby. And I submit the list as is follows (and should be used to describe the MODEL, not the MODELER).
RTR out of the box.
Added/changed Couplers to RTR
Added/changed Couplers/Trucks to RTR
Assembled Kit
Assembled Kit with other MFG detail pieces/trucks added/changed
Kit bashed model with 2 or more MFG kits involved
Scratchbuilt model with other MRG parts added.
Scratchbuilt model with MFG couplers/trucks added
Scratchbuilt model with MFG couplers added
Scratchbuilt model with NO MFG parts involved.
Feel free to discuss my list. I dont care for labels, but this list shows how one label will run into another.
Geared Steamblownout cylinder OK---glad to see someone opening up a can of worms to see what they look like I'm a bit of everything myself. I don't think that there is a need to get into a period of existential angst over this split in the first place. But some, I feel, might. I have to agree with Barry, I'm not sure what value this thread will serve, but I'll bite. Personally, when I view another persons layout, I try to understand his vision and what he is wanting to portray, be it a little branchline in the desert with 0-4-0's or the BNSF mainline through Glacier. I never look at the layout to "measure up" the creator, that's never been my interest in the hobby, and I don't care to categorize people to begin with. Most of us are talented in some areas and not so much in others areas, or we aren't interested in a certain aspect of the hobby. We go the easy route so we can spend time doing what we enjoy doing. My Humble Opinion
blownout cylinder OK---glad to see someone opening up a can of worms to see what they look like I'm a bit of everything myself. I don't think that there is a need to get into a period of existential angst over this split in the first place. But some, I feel, might.
OK---glad to see someone opening up a can of worms to see what they look like
I'm a bit of everything myself. I don't think that there is a need to get into a period of existential angst over this split in the first place.
But some, I feel, might.
I have to agree with Barry, I'm not sure what value this thread will serve, but I'll bite.
Personally, when I view another persons layout, I try to understand his vision and what he is wanting to portray, be it a little branchline in the desert with 0-4-0's or the BNSF mainline through Glacier. I never look at the layout to "measure up" the creator, that's never been my interest in the hobby, and I don't care to categorize people to begin with. Most of us are talented in some areas and not so much in others areas, or we aren't interested in a certain aspect of the hobby. We go the easy route so we can spend time doing what we enjoy doing.
My Humble Opinion
It is not my intent and was not in the beginning to label anybody as a this or a that. I simply want to know / understand how people define the TERMS themselves and compare those.
jrbernierIt is all personal choice.....Jim Bernier
It is all personal choice.....
Jim Bernier