Sheldon,There is a "divide" in the hobby..And guess what? Surprise! Its as old as the hobby.It was there in my dad's modeling era,its here today and will be in the years to come.
I remember the time if you bought RTR brass locomotives you was not a "real" modeler after all "real" modelers build theirs from kits or scratchbuilt.
You was looked down upon with contempt if you bought RTR locos and cars from Varney,Cox Linburg or AHM.The Athearn RTR cars was also frowned on.
I dunno but,over the years I seen many things from control systems to modeling ideas come and go.I seen my fair share of "hot shot" modelers come and go and I suspect I will see few more come and go before I head off to that happy model railroad club in the sky or worst firing a steam leaking #9 in the lower inferno regions with a laughing engineer blowing what fire I have out the stack.
Heck,I admit I am a dinosaur modeler that enjoys the old simple ways of the hobby.I tried DCC and sound and liked it but,its not my cup of tea especially on a 1 horse ISL...I don't get excited with each wind change of the hobby.I seen to many come and go.
To me its the simplicity of enjoying the hobby,railfanning etc.I care not if the old Happy Hollow & Western never owned a SEICO boxcar.That HH&W car looks might sweet painted Blue with the NRUC logo on its door.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Really good post Sheldon and I agree with the majority of responses on here. My layout is anything but common. Unfortunately, I bought a townhouse 2 years before getting into this hobby after a nearly 25 year layoff. The unfortunate part is lack off space, I would have loved to have a basement for a permanent layout but that is not an option, atleast until we upgrade into a newer house. Anyway I don't have enough space but I have found another option by using life like power-loc track which some have suggested is junk.
In expensive ok I can buy that, but what it allows me to do is not have to worry about benchwork or putting track on cork bed to get it off the floor but rather set up my 18' X 12' layout in under an hour and a half. I do this by storing sections of track under the couch and when it is time to set up the layout the sections just snap together.
Oh here is another thing that some will scoff at. I run Athearn 6 axle trains and I run them around, wait for it. 18'' radius track with overhang. Ah the dreaded overhang. Wait that doesn't look realistic, why don't you have larger radius turns? Go back to the first paragraph to answer that one.
In the end, I use what I want to make my layout work for me and if it puts a smile on your face then so be it. Pretty soon I will adding my 7th loco to go along with my 75+ rolling stock fleet.
Have fun everyone and until next time.
Will
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I have to agree. When I received my $200 Paragon 2 Hudson W/O Decoder, I had to rewire it, and add a bunch of other stuff to get it running. And after fixing the valve gear, I found out that the wheels are slightly out of quarter, and so it runs with a limp. And yet my $26.99 Walthers Trainline GP9m can pull the Hudson backwards up a uphill grade while the Hudson in reverse. And for DC, that’s pretty darn good. As for Arthern Blue Box, My father’s kits have survived the years, and the SD45 he has worked great after a cleaning of the wheels and a oiling of the bearings. To my standards, a Trainline, Trainman, Blue Box, P2K or Spectrum is all the same. Sure the Spectrum looks a million times better and costs more, but for now, the way I see it is to get locomotives that have solid drives and are reliable, and upgrade as my skills improve. To me, it is satisfying looking at a superdetailed locomotive that you have now, and reflecting that this locomotive originally had grab irons that were straight, molded lines and the marker lights were circular bumps. As for Atlas track, I use (Gasp!) Atlas Code 100 at near 18 degree radius. Hey, it solid, and it keeps up with the beating it recives. As for couplers, I use a mixture of Kadee's and Accumate II couplers. They bolth perform to my standards. Sure I'll take the Ford and the Doge; they are reliable bases to improve upon.
Maybe the message in all of this is that, in our own spaces, we are The Kings. Why we do what we do the way we do it is nobody's business but our own. We spend the bucks, we get the yucks.
Live and let live,...but please, stop the continual chest-beating about how much better you are than I, or that your way is better than mine. If I agreed with you, I'd be doing it your way. I don't.
-Crandell
selector Maybe the message in all of this is that, in our own spaces, we are The Kings. Why we do what we do the way we do it is nobody's business but our own. We spend the bucks, we get the yucks. Live and let live,...but please, stop the continual chest-beating about how much better you are than I, or that your way is better than mine. If I agreed with you, I'd be doing it your way. I don't. -Crandell
AMEN, now the choir can sing and we all go to our railroads.
Bob
Some of my best model railroad times in the recent past have been resurrecting a couple of old celler-rescued Bowser and Mantua steam locomotives that would not be considered state of the art by anyone. These engines were seriously corroded and moldy, but the old open frame motors could be coaxed back to life, and the drives could be adjusted to peak efficiency and a surprisingly low noise level (although I never believed steam locos should be silent). A few scrounged detail parts from too-far-gone Rivarossi engines, and all is well with the world.
Different drummer? Maybe. I love scale accuracy, super detail, and all that, but bringing a loco back to life with my own hands and ingenuity is really satisfying. And, the cost is very low. And, these engines can actually pull a heavy train up a grade, at a reasonable main line speed, or switch at walking speed. The enduring part of the hobby is in the building and running, for me, using old-school DC (which ALWAYS works!).
Robt. Livingston Different drummer? Maybe. I love scale accuracy, super detail, and all that, but bringing a loco back to life with my own hands and ingenuity is really satisfying.
Different drummer? Maybe. I love scale accuracy, super detail, and all that, but bringing a loco back to life with my own hands and ingenuity is really satisfying.
IMHO there's no other feeling in the hobby that can compare.
Think of the skills gain..
A month ago I responded to a "serious model railroader" posting and had my response removed as being undiplomatic and insulting; the moderator advised me that if I didn't like a response 'ignore it'.
I am not a "serious model railroader"--I am an N-Scaler and, hence, beneath contempt! First off I am a diesel afficionado! About ten years ago I bought a couple of "pre-Walthers" Life-Like PAs instead of purchasing much better running Kato units; I don't use Atlas Code 55 track but use Micro Engineering product instead--if postings here on the forum are an indication it is more difficult to work with than Atlas track but I've been using it for so long and have created templates to facilitate its bending and I'm comfortable with it; I tried hand laying track when I first got into N-Scale but, as I have related, I never got into that aspect of track laying and eventually went to flex track; I don't purchase ready-to-install switches but instead elect to build my own a necessity mandated by the fact that when I got into N-Scale Code 55 track a quarter century ago the only switches available were #6s, a size fine for industrial trackage but hardly conducive for the high iron; I have yet to shed my motive power and rolling stock of unsightly cast on detail but that is in my future; heresy-of-heresies, I actually have a handful of Bachmann Spectrum dash-eights that run great. Add to the list the fact that I am a freelancer, which is indicative of basic laziness.
In 1981 my wife and I attended the NMRA convention in San Mateo, Calif; one of the layouts on a tour was an N-Scale layout with about 250 feet of track. As I was leaving the bus I overheard one guy say to another, "Don't bother going in there! It's only an N-Scale layout." That "only an N-Scale layout" got featured in MR, RMC, and N-Scale magazine. The brass hat is now deceased but his layout was quite inspirational and the detail he had incorporated into his layout was instrumental in my adoption of N-Scale a year down the road.
As I said, "I'm not a 'serious model railroader'--I'm an N-Scaler." When I read some of the bellyaches I am sometimes inclined to ask myself if I, too, have not taken up residence on a different planet.
From the far, far reaches of the wild, wild west I am: rtpoteet
..... Bob
Beam me up, Scotty, there's no intelligent life down here. (Captain Kirk)
I reject your reality and substitute my own. (Adam Savage)
Resistance is not futile--it is voltage divided by current.
BRAKIE Robt. Livingston Different drummer? Maybe. I love scale accuracy, super detail, and all that, but bringing a loco back to life with my own hands and ingenuity is really satisfying. IMHO there's no other feeling in the hobby that can compare. Think of the skills gain..
Precisely. I may not be the best in terms of getting the model right the first time---but I'll keep trying because I like it!!!
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
Reading this thread makes me feel like the oddball. I have done scratch building, craftsman kits, shake the box kits, and RTR. And I plan on doing more of it all in the future. I even have Lionel 3 rail trains I set up and run from time to time.
I don't know which side of this Great Divide I'm on - all three I guess. I don't care, if it's trains I love it.
Enjoy
Paul
While this appears to be the philosophy of many forumites, then they also shouldn't get your nose bent out of shape when someone tells them that they don't like what you've done or expresses an opinion that doesn't correspond with their own.
Thinking about the whole idea of getting more satisfaction out of scratchbuilding or kitbashing than the simply buying something RTR I was thinking back to how a few decades ago say when some wanted a GP35, let's say, they would start with a wide body Athearn, cut the body off, split it in two and narrow the hood to the proper width, add new fans etc, remotor the chassis etc., etc. I don't know anybody who still does that since there are some many units out there now that have scale width hoods. Would I get more satisfaction doing that vs. buying a nice RTR Kato unit or even a new RTR Athearn with the RPP GP35 shell? No, I view it as a mis-allocation of time. The point being is that as things (technology, manufacturing process etc) improve, some of the old ways of doing things are not always relevant now. I'd much rather spend my time, money and effort adding detail to that already scale width hood than taking some old Athearn body shell and cutting into pieces to make a scale width hood just to be able say I did it. The cost savings isn't worth the time it would take.
Silver PilotThe point being is that as things (technology, manufacturing process etc) improve, some of the old ways of doing things are not always relevant now. I'd much rather spend my time, money and effort adding detail to that already scale width hood than taking some old Athearn body shell and cutting into pieces to make a scale width hood just to be able say I did it. The cost savings isn't worth the time it would take.
What you brought up is true, up to a point. My point being that I--or others for that matter-- may not be thinking in terms of the dollar/time thing. It can be the same type of scenario of the aesthetic collector who is paying only attention on the locomotives looks---totally disregarding cost factors.
The issue I have is one of finding body types that would be along the lines of a GMD1 then modifying it and then retrucking the thing so that it would be a GMD1 with A1A-A1A wheelsets---these are not so commercially viable as there were only---maybe 6 of them running by the 1980's. I do these for the enjoyment factor. Not the cost/time factor----after all--maybe the point should be are there any other value systems to look at as to why one does things than the dollar/time one currently in vogue?
And how one does 'X' in contrast to how another does the same thing should only be seen as a difference --without the hierarchical rhetoric so often thrown around. We do not need to place a hierarchy in place of a simple difference.
I don't get a sense that the OP was looking to tear open the age-old perceived-yet-non-existent rift between the so-called "craftsman" and the so-called "RTR crowd." These are useless labels that people throw around in arguments that have no point.
Rather I think the OP was elucidating his frustration at some people's denouncements of top-quality hobby products as poor or beneath them. I'm sorry, I have to agree. I can give manufacturers as much guff as any when it comes to accuracy (Joe at Micro Trains has dealt directly with my ire for every botched N scale Pennsy and Conrail offering!), but I would never presume to disparage other modelers who choose these products. Moreover, we now have the best operating track and trains, as a whole than we've ever had before. You will not convince me otherwise.
I submit that the OP's point was if something's not 100% up to snuff, we as model railroaders (and I mean EVERYONE HERE) should not be adverse to tinkering a little to make things right. That does not necessitate a "craftsman versus RTR" argument where one is not warranted. All that does is send people to their corners to sulk.
Modeling the Rio Grande Southern First District circa 1938-1946 in HOn3.
I knew this was where this thread was headed:
markpierceI knew this was where this thread was headed:
Love the staircase, Mark. Question ---from where on that site did you get that shot?
Nah, we're all on the same planet, Sheldon.
Sheldon,Your original post on this subject:Atlas and Kato are better than P2K and Spectrum steam, at least in drive quality and consistancy. That's a fact. New Atlas and Kato engines cost approx. the same as new P2K and Spectrum steam, not 40% more. That's also a fact. Kato's are $125-$180, Atlas w/o sound are $110-$180, while P2K are $125-$180, and Spectrum steam locos are $125-$190 w/o sound. So I guess the question becomes if Atlas and Kato can make superb locos with dependable drives for $180 or less, why can't P2K or Spectrum (in their diesel line)? And why should those who want that kind of quality and prefer that kind of quality have to apologize for wanting it? Likewise, why should we tone down any call for improving quality or tone down our complaints about the sometimes shoddy work that P2K and Spectrum continue to produce?
Speculating on new releases is just for fun, you know. Athearn, Walthers, Con-Cor, Kato, etc. Atlas will even play with us over on their forum, giving us hints that drive people bonkers...in a good way. All in all, speculating on this forum about new products is pretty harmless. No different from heading to the LHS and chatting with other customers.
Atlas track is not like it's state of the art. It's not the most accurate, it does have oversized "spikes", it only has provision for track nails, and it does have problems with switch continuity and frog height. These are facts, not opinions. That is legitimate criticism, and is not based on "snob prices" and brass Code 100 rail but actual problems with all their track lines, including Code 83 track. The criticism will stop once Atlas improves their track line...just like in any other industry.
As for those that assume facts not in evidence, well, right back atcha. Not everyone is an electrical engineer with access to cheap electrical components who wants to wire up their layout to avoid DCC, and not everyone is a sound engineer that needs to have 100% realistic sound in their locos before they can enjoy sound locos.
Which brings me to this point: aren't you being a tad hypocritical here? You say that people should be okay with accepting mediocre performance from P2K and Spectrum and that people should be okay with questionable Atlas track quality, but what about sound? You have made it clear on many occasions that only 100% realistic sound is acceptable for you. In fact, you've said once that you wanted wireless headphones that would reproduce all diesel sounds based on how close your head is to every loco on the layout, so if you lean back it gets softer (and you can pick up that Alco behind you) and if you lean forward you get louder volume of that Baldwin running past you. Why do you feel it's not okay for us to complain about model railroading offerings but it's perfectly okay for you to complain about it? What's good for the goose, and all that.
As for me, I like Atlas track because it's cheap and easy to work with. If I had a million bucks and all the time in the world, I'd use M.E. track and handlay the switches with CV kits.
I own many P2K engines, but that's because Atlas and Kato don't make everything I want. But if Atlas and Kato make the same engines as P2K, I'd buy them first because of P2K's drive issues.
I enjoy tinkering with my locos, but I think that paying more than $125 for a plastic loco should result in a perfect drive that doesn't need tinkering.
Personally, I resist the call to accept mediocre modeling as the norm. We should all strive to be better modelers. We may not all get there, but let's recognize achievement and the desire for it, not get into a stagnating pattern where a lack of progress is waved off with "I'll do what I want!" attitude. Reminds me of art class back in grade school. Some kids never got past the crayon level of art, while others went on to try pastels, pottery, and oil paint. The difference here is that back in art class, the crayon kids never said, "It's my art and I can do what I want!". They may have eaten the crayons, but that's about the extent of it.
Paul A. Cutler III*******************Weather Or No Go New Haven*******************
blownout cylinder Love the staircase, Mark. Question ---from where on that site did you get that shot?
The site is the Knossos Minoan Palace in Crete. Took the photo about five years ago while wandering around the palace. The upper stories are obviously gone. The site is quite ancient.
http://www.explorecrete.com/Knossos/knossos.html
At another historic Greek site, there was a contingent of military recruits touring. My conclusion was that it is a Greek policy to educate its soldiers to appreciate/defend their heritage.
Mark
Paul,
You missed the point. I agree with most all your "technical" comments, But I must say I have only experianced a few of them. Except for a few cracked gears on stuff made 10-15 years ago, all my Proto locos run great. So do my Spectrum steam. "Mediocre performance"? I guess I am on a different planet, or maybe its my inferior control system that makes them run so good? I don't have any Spectrum diesels as they are not in my era just like most of the offerings from Atlas and Kato. And I didn't pay anywhere near any of those pices for any of my locos, except maybe my newest Proto F7's.
And, I never called for anyone to stop saying whatever they want, I just responed to it. Again, with the point that I have not had most of these problems OR that I did not see them as "problems".
As for Atlas track, I like it for the same reason you do, and I see its only flaw as being the sometimes rasied up frogs, easily fixed. I have lots of issues with all those other brands of turnouts that cost much more. One of my biggest complaints with many of them is the long lead on the divirging route that almost always has to be cut - why is it there? On PECO's I don't like the curved frogs of the old line or the "snap" throwbar. I know others like these features and that's fine. I don't constantly complain about these things to other modelers, in fact I don't bring it up unless asked, I just don't buy the stuff. ME track, OK, but CV switch kits, well let me tell you, I built a few and you can keep them. They look great but I expect my trains to run and with a layout containing over 100 turnouts, I need something more durable than those things. Now days, when I need a custom turnout, I use the frog and points from an Atlas turnout to hand lay one.
Paul3Personally, I resist the call to accept mediocre modeling as the norm. We should all strive to be better modelers.
Agreed, but who gets to be the judge?
Sheldon
Paul3 Personally, I resist the call to accept mediocre modeling as the norm. We should all strive to be better modelers. We may not all get there, but let's recognize achievement and the desire for it, not get into a stagnating pattern where a lack of progress is waved off with "I'll do what I want!" attitude. Reminds me of art class back in grade school. Some kids never got past the crayon level of art, while others went on to try pastels, pottery, and oil paint. The difference here is that back in art class, the crayon kids never said, "It's my art and I can do what I want!". They may have eaten the crayons, but that's about the extent of it. Paul A. Cutler III*******************Weather Or No Go New Haven*******************
Well said, the entire post, but especially the item quoted above.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL OR that I did not see them as "problems
This is interesting---in the prototypical world if a locomotive had to be tweeked a little that was all that was done--there was no kvetching about how poor the quality was. It was just dealt with and there they went.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Paul3Personally, I resist the call to accept mediocre modeling as the norm. We should all strive to be better modelers. Agreed, but who gets to be the judge?
A detached observer from Mars perhaps?
Or maybe we need to distinguish between the contest version of improving one's skills wherein one fights it out in an all out existential battle with someone who does something better than oneself and one that concentrates on 'why does 'X' not work here---and figuring it out for oneself" I know some work better with the first but ----
Dave Vollmer I don't get a sense that the OP was looking to tear open the age-old perceived-yet-non-existent rift between the so-called "craftsman" and the so-called "RTR crowd." These are useless labels that people throw around in arguments that have no point. Rather I think the OP was elucidating his frustration at some people's denouncements of top-quality hobby products as poor or beneath them. I'm sorry, I have to agree. I can give manufacturers as much guff as any when it comes to accuracy (Joe at Micro Trains has dealt directly with my ire for every botched N scale Pennsy and Conrail offering!), but I would never presume to disparage other modelers who choose these products. Moreover, we now have the best operating track and trains, as a whole than we've ever had before. You will not convince me otherwise. I submit that the OP's point was if something's not 100% up to snuff, we as model railroaders (and I mean EVERYONE HERE) should not be adverse to tinkering a little to make things right. That does not necessitate a "craftsman versus RTR" argument where one is not warranted. All that does is send people to their corners to sulk.
Dave, you did get the point! Thank you for your well thought restatement of it.
Paul3They may have eaten the crayons, but that's about the extent of it.
And there are a few modelers here still eating their crayons
We could go on & on & on about this & where will it get us? Nowhere!
I had enough of the "that's not good enough for modelers or You're not a model railroader" bs over a year ago so I took time away from here. Obviously....... things haven't changed!
What isn't good for this hobby is telling new comers that this or that is crap!
How is a young child going to be able to afford an Altas or Kato locomotive? How? Mom & Dad may or may not get involved & when they look at the price, they'll probably end up fainting. Also not everyone is inclined to go online to look for deals.
There is nothing wrong with the cheaper offerings from Athearn, IHC, Accurail etc etc etc to get started with. NOTHING.
I just gave my 4 yr old son a IHC 0-8-0 steam loco for his birthday & he was estactic over it
I have several IHC locomotives, they work great for what I want them for & have never had a problem with them. I will admit that the IHC passenger cars suck out of the box, but for another $10, I have a decent rolling passanger car that will navigate an 18" curve which is what most newcomers will end up using as this is the radius curve track that most Model Train Sets come with.
Well over half my diesel fleet are Athearn. Lube them up, clean the wheels & they go back to work!
So what if they are not Prototypical for CP Rail. I don't have the time or patience right now to make them protoypical. They look good enough to me, that's good enough for me! Allen McClelland mentions something like that a video on the V&O I have.
Until the rivet counters start helping the newcomers, instead of hindering, this hobby will continue to shrink.
Gordon
Brought to you by the letters C.P.R. as well as D&H!
K1a - all the way
Driline Paul3They may have eaten the crayons, but that's about the extent of it. And there are a few modelers here still eating their crayons
Aren't pastel sticks technically crayons?
Vincent
Wants: 1. high-quality, sound equipped, SD40-2s, C636s, C30-7s, and F-units in BN. As for ones that don't cost an arm and a leg, that's out of the question....
2. An end to the limited-production and other crap that makes models harder to get and more expensive.
CP5415 What isn't good for this hobby is telling new comers that this or that is crap!
Now, if someone wanted to really help that person they COULD mention how they could buy a better product--be it through the internet stores, or Ebay, or what have you---they COULD also show the poor fellow how 'X' is done
But then, some of us are lacking in some social skills I guess
CP5415Well over half my diesel fleet are Athearn. Lube them up, clean the wheels & they go back to work!
If some people keep on about realistic operations they'll have to mention the realistic operations behind Locomotive Maintenence.
PackerAren't pastel sticks technically crayons?
Technically no. But similar. Here is the definition:
"A drawing medium of dried paste made of ground pigments and a water-based binder that is manufactured in crayon form."
You could call it a crayon for "SNOBS" if you like
A bit more expensive don't you know....
Paul3: Personally, I resist the call to accept mediocre modeling as the norm. We should all strive to be better modelers. ---------------------------------------
-------------------------
Sheldon,We must judge ourselves base solely on our capabilities with the understanding in the real world mediocre modeling seems to be the norm based on the modelers skills,time,understanding and above all desire and without that desire we will find no need to arise above that norm if our models blends in with Average Joe modeler down at the club and we become comfortable and happy with our modeling style and if we are happy then who's to judge our chosen modeling style?.
Brother Paul may have the desire to do museum quality modeling(and he does judging by the few pictures I recall seeing) but,I don't and wouldn't want to since operation is my thing..
Now when I was younger I had this desire to model to the Nth degree with everything detailed to include cars with air hoses and uncoupling levers.All cabooses was to carry marker lights.This I did for several years.
What happened?
Thanks for asking.
Reality kicked in and I found I enjoyed operation more then spending hours at the work desk detailing a car or locomotive.Good enough/close enough became my modeling style with a minimalist approach.
Personally, the blue ones are my favorite. The brown ones taste too much like chicken and ketchup on red crayons is like carrying coals to Newcastle.
Darrell, quiet...for now