My wife and I just returned from a trip to Cumberland Maryland where we spent the day riding the Western Maryland Scenic Railroad, a great train ride and wonderful fall mountain scenery.
As I read through some of what has been posted in my absence, I start to wonder when I left the model railroading planet I was on before. Actually, this is not a new condition, just one made more obvious to me by being away a few days.
I mean no disrespect or criticism to those with different views but I am amazed by:
People who consider Proto2000 diesels (or Bachmann Spectrum steam), especially older ones, "low quality", with that nose in the air "Atlas and Kato are much better". Maybe they are, but they don't make the prototypes I want and they are like Ford's vs BMW's. The BMW is 10% better but costs 40% more.
Posts about Athearn and what they will or will not make, when fact is you could likely get the plans to our next defense project easier than finding out what Athearn is REALLY going to do next.
Endless criticism of Atlas track, really just because it does not have a snob price, or because the last time the critic looked at a piece was 1968.
People who "assume" facts not in evidence, like how big home layout curves are, or how long my mainline run is, how many freight cars/locos one needs/has, what kind of control system one uses, what some likes or dislikes, etc. Others may have interests, wants, situations and resources completely different from yours, don't assume.
And this one takes the cake - I understand people of all ages and skills like model trains, and the increase in quality RTR models has fueled interest and activity among people who otherwise might have avoided a hobby of building, requiring mechanical/electrical skills - but when those people, who can't or won't learn the basic skills of this hobby, post their disatisfaction with prodcts that have worked well for 40 years (example: Kadee coupler springs), or complain about the most minor adjustments needed on new locos, etc, than I really do wonder if I am in the same hobby.
Maybe not. And maybe the "divide" is not just "in our heads" but truely exists because our heads see this hobby so differently in some cases.
So for whatever it is worth:
My Proto FA's run great, so do my GP7's and PA's, even if a gear or two needed replacement.
My Atlas track works great, and I will admit hand layed is the best, and I know how, but I don't have the time or the interest for the large layout I'm building.
I run DC and don't need/want/like sound in small scales like HO.
I'm building a layout that is large but relatively simple. One yard, one passenger terminal, long mailine, large curves, easy grades. My choice, I understand if yours are different.
I run Athearn cars and Kadee cars and everything in between.
I freelance and model three prototypes, but gave up rivet counting years ago, it got boring.
And I encourage everyone to enjoy the hobby in whatever way they like, but please, don't assume everyone enjoy's it your way. After 40 years in the hobby and working in a few hobby shops, I have seen lots of different approaches, none are wrong if your having fun.
No call for censorship here, quite the oposite. Just thinking out loud about other's opinions and comments.
Sheldon
Can't help but agree here.
My Athearn locomotives run great as do my Athearn BB, Roundhouse, Accurail freight cars
Gordon
Brought to you by the letters C.P.R. as well as D&H!
K1a - all the way
ATLANTIC CENTRALAnd this one takes the cake - I understand people of all ages and skills like model trains, and the increase in quality RTR models has fueled interest and activity among people who otherwise might have avoided a hobby of building, requiring mechanical/electrical skills - but when those people, who can't or won't learn the basic skills of this hobby, post their disatisfaction with prodcts that have worked well for 40 years (example: Kadee coupler springs), or complain about the most minor adjustments needed on new locos, etc, than I really do wonder if I am in the same hobby.
It may very well be thaty there is a sort of divide----I've been wondering about this myself---when you consider that there is a lot of blather about whether 'X' company is going out of kit based rolling stock----oh well ---some of us will just go and do the mfg and base it on what was done before---build the marketI use whatever mfg that has a model of any RS# around---some get detailed a little more--oh the horror! He builds them up!! ohno ohno
BTW--you'd think that if something has worked for 40+years that there is no issue but some people find issueing issues with issues
As it is was and ever shall be ---enjoy the hobby in all its forms
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
Maybe we´re both from planet Zog? I consider this a hobby and as such it have to be fun.
I don´t build a prototype layout based on a specific day in history, neither do I run all expensive locos.
I do what satisfies my needs for fun and recreation, and if that means doing it my way? Oh yes!
Swedish Custom painter and model maker. My Website:
My Railroad
My Youtube:
Graff´s channel
Prototype railroads have to satisfy many customers. Some are happy, some are not.
My railroad only has one real customer - me. And it does very well at that indeed.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
Modeling the Rio Grande Southern First District circa 1938-1946 in HOn3.
Dave VollmerAtlantic Central; very well put. I agree 100%. Sometimes it takes a little work to have everything you've ever wanted.
That is it---I like learning about how to do things and doing them---
Here Here
I just found out that according to some, I'm not a "serious model railroader" because I use a Bachmann EZ Command, and I have no need to advance to a "better" system. My Shays don't have ditch lights, I have no need for "advanced programming" the cv's. Lights on, Lights off, forward , reverse, my speeds are great with the factory settings, slow, slower, more slower, about stopped, almost stopped, stopped. I'm trying to figure out where to send in my "serious" patch in exchange for "just dabbling".
My Bachmann HO Shays work great, yes I replaced the gears for NWSL, but tweaking is part of the hobby right? Or is this just for the "serious" guys with the Digitrax Super Mountain Command 400 (with power windows) DCC Systems? I had a heck of a time finding an HO Atlas or Kato Shay, my emails go unanswered. They just want to sell me powered boxcars.
My "fragile" Atlas code 83 just keeps working, the switches required a tweak, but again, isn't that expected in MRR?
I have a 4x8, that according to many is a because I'm scared to saw wood, (LOL) and I'm suppose to build a HOG with a duck under. It must be good cuz its got a Yahoo Group dedicated to it! I spend hours operating my evil 4x8 knowing I shouldn't be enjoying myself, that is is against all laws of the Serious Model Railroading Gods, and sooner or later, the thugs will kick me door down and confiscate my NMRA Gauge, NWSL Chopper II, Xacto knife, HO scale rule and all of my MRR, RMC's and videos.
In the end, the experts don't know as much as they think about what I want; and as long as they know this; they won't be bothered by what I'm doing "wrong"
It's a hobby.......
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge but imagination."-Albert Einstein
http://gearedsteam.blogspot.com/
Maybe it's a span of attention thing...
Back in the dark ages before the first Kadee couplers, I learned to hand-lay track because I couldn't afford anything pre-assembled (on fiber ties with staples.) I also learned to assemble kits, because the only RTR locomotives were produced by custom builders, at prices that would buy you a pretty good motor vehicle. At that time, you went to the movies and sat through the whole three hour film, not to mention the cartoon, the serial and the coming attractions. Nobody tried to sell anything on the silver screen.
Today it's possible to buy a shake-the-box layout and equip it with motive power and rolling stock that, theoretically, can be moved from the box to the layout with no intermediate steps. The present level of popular eyeball-filler takes an hour to tell 20 minutes worth of story, with six interludes during which folks try to sell a dozen products and services totally unrelated to the drama they interrupt.
So, maybe those of us who learned to do things the 'old-fashioned' way are anachronisms in an 'instant-gratification' world. Being a lone wolf by nature, I can live with that.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
Geared SteamI have a 4x8, that according to many is a because I'm scared to saw wood, (LOL)
Pics Pics! Lets some Pics of your layout. I too chose to build small. Something I could complete in less than 4 or 5 years.
BRAVO SIR!
I am and will always consider myself a newbe and am intrested in all opinions and trials. But sometime I feel very intimidated and do not ask questions for fear of the replys I have seen. Not that I would stop asking if I really need help or an opinion but sometimes we forget this is a HOBBY FOR FUN. Then take it to the next level but leave each to thier own if they don't follow.
Just my thoughts,
Gary
Well Sheldon I couldn't have said it better. I agree with you 100% and give a stamp of approval to your observations. However, I stopped listening to critics long ago, I"m not into the hobby to please anybody but myself and I couldn't give a rat's butt what others think. I do things my way, I like my way, I've been doing it my way for almost 30 years now and no, I won't change my ways unless I want to.
Ya know the truth in life is that there is just no pleasing some people.
The Dixie D Short Line "Lux Lucet In Tenebris Nihil Igitur Mors Est Ad Nos 2001"
Great post, I to get wierd looks as i shun DCC, sound, and profess my love to build craftsman kits on cold winter nights. RTR is nice and it has its place, as does the sound and DCC. But like many of you guys, I can live without it. Atlas track is great and I prefer it, I tend to use Peco turnouts since they power route but the rest is Atlas snap track. I have several Athearn engines, most live at the club layout as I prefer steam. My steam consist of an nice old Penn-Line PRR L1 Mikado, a PFM Berkshire and 2 PFM SRR PS4 Pacifics. While I went up a few steps for what I paid for my steam locomotives. I prefered to have a few really nice ones. I haunt shows for old kits, diecast steam engines and other old oddities. I have a nice collection of model railroaders from the 60's and would like to find more. There are great articles on actual modeling in there and not a ton of adds. There are the great old ads from PFM and other brass sellers that we nolonger see, Articles on how to superdetail a steam engine and track plans for small homes and rooms. Heck my layout room is 115" by 111" and I am still trying to figure out a track plan to fit in the room and leave space for my desk and a china cabnet in there. And keeping a 22" min radius curve to boot. Like someone else said, its a hobby. Keep it fun, keep it real and lets run some trains!!!
LHS mechanic and geniune train and antique garden tractor nut case!
I have a DCC layout that has a bunch of things that look like kind of out of place( herein after called OOPS) locomotives---I developed a character name of Fred "howdhedodat?!" Thompson who is the proprietor of the Williston Hysterical Society's Train museum and collectors emporium. He's the perfect excuse----er----reason--(that's it!!) for the curiosa that end up there----
I also tend to build up a lot of elevators and feedmills---and still end up with a "Blue Circle" Audio semi plant on my layout----they do get their supplies by train---at least here--
I'll just keep doing my own stuff---
Have a good one---
The beauty of this hobby is that we can be as zealous or as carefree as suits our whims and desires, and we need not please anyone else but ourselves (unless strutting your stuff for others is what we want out of the hobby. There's an irony!)
I love my layout. DC, code 100 track, #4 turnouts, Blue Boxes, and all! It's not suitable to all tastes, but it fits my desires and fills my need to escape into the Man Cave. What a great hobby we have!
"I am lapidary but not eristic when I use big words." - William F. Buckley
I haven't been sleeping. I'm afraid I'll dream I'm in a coma and then wake up unconscious. -Stephen Wright
On a different planet? Possibly! Ever seen Planet of the Apes? They return to the same planet, just in a completely different time. Has anyone ever thought that perhaps the hobby has progressed, past them by and left them standing at the station?
As technology advances and gets applied to this hobby, what was once considered very good might now be consider below par. As mentioned, take power/control systems and layout design. It used to be considered the norm and standard practice to have train operators remain stationary. On large layouts they ran their trains (using DC of course) from an operating balcony that over looked the entire layout. As kids, or maybe even as adults, we used to think that those little gold box throttles from Tyco were good enough to control our trains and power our accessories. Then you discovered MRC power packs with things like momentum and finer speed control. So we swapped out our gold boxed for shiny coppoer colored MRC power packs like the 501 sitting in a box. Then operating concepts changed to walk around control. Technology kept changing and soone that 501 power pack got replaced with a solid state one, then we wanted walk around control. So we did some looking around and found out that there were even better power systems out there. One's that featured walk around control with memory so our trains didn't stop when we went from one town to another was we walked along with our train. I remember the club I was in had a throttle with multiple brake and momentum settings so you could simulate the respons of a heavy freight train or a short local.
Then we got tired of having a cable tying us down and discovered wireless control systems. But, still with all of this we faced the limitations of block control and need to control the flow of electricity to sections of track to be able to run our trains. Next someone came out with command control. I remember operating on friends layout using an OnBoard system. We were amazed at the possibilities for operating without blocks. As technology kept marching along DCC come out. And then wireless DCC - first infrared, then simplex radio and then duplex radio.
Just the same applies with locomotives and rolling stock. Rubber band drives, sure they worked, would you trade your Proto FAs for an Athearn rubber band drive F unit. Unfortunately, some of the forumites don't want to admit that not all locomotives or rolling stock is created the same. You can have your Bachmann Spectrum diesels for the most part, I'll stick with my Atlas, Kato, Genesis and even P2K locos. There is a noticeable difference in quality and detail. Sure you can add some of the stuff thats lacking, but in some cases to do so would cost more than buying the next step up. Just as some have lamented in the Athearn Kit thread about how by the time you spend the money to upgrade the BB kits wheels and couplers and add some details you've spent almost as much as a RTR car, the same applies to locomotives.
Unlike most others here I'll admit that there is a divide. But I don't think the divide is about skills or talents, it is about philosophy and approach. Some people advocate the approach of "what ever makes you happy" and the " who cares what anyone else thinks as long as you like it" philosophy. Other tend towards a more Socratic method where debate and opposing points of view are not only allowed, but encourage. An appproach where one learns from the open exchange of ideas, from doing something and having not only the good things pointed out but also the bad things pointed out.
Some modelers are more adamant about following prototype than others - what some will call rivet counters. Others follow the two foot rule - if it looks good two feet way then that's good enough. Still others follow the "d the torpedos, I'm doing what I want to do, its my railroad and no one can tell me what I can or can't do. Is there one right way. No, but there certainly are wrong ways.
Oh yeah - you can have the Ford, I'll take the BMW.
Silver PilotJust the same applies with locomotives and rolling stock. Rubber band drives, sure they worked, would you trade your Proto FAs for an Athearn rubber band drive F unit. Unfortunately, some of the forumites don't want to admit that not all locomotives or rolling stock is created the same. You can have your Bachmann Spectrum diesels for the most part, I'll stick with my Atlas, Kato, Genesis and even P2K locos. There is a noticeable difference in quality and detail. Sure you can add some of the stuff thats lacking, but in some cases to do so would cost more than buying the next step up. Just as some have lamented in the Athearn Kit thread about how by the time you spend the money to upgrade the BB kits wheels and couplers and add some details you've spent almost as much as a RTR car, the same applies to locomotives.
Didn't really read what I wrote, did you. I said nothing about Spectrum diesels, only Spectrum steam. Yes there are differences between products, and you are welcome to only buy the "BMW's", but, as I stated, those companies don't make the locos for my period/interest. My loco fleet contains Spectrum steam, BLI, Genesis, Proto2000 steam and diesel, Intermountain and others. But Atlas and Kato are not really interested in my money based on the models they choose to make. And that's fine, I'm very happy with what I have.
Silver PilotOh yeah - you can have the Ford, I'll take the BMW.
As for real cars, I worked in the BMW dealership and drove lots of them, great cars, but I will keep my money and spend it on trains, thank you. My Fords have gotten me everywhere I need to go and been economical and reliable to own. That is all I want from a car. I built hot rods in my youth and got over all that.
I'm open to new ideas, I have imbraced a lot of them over 40 years. But the "group" you refer generally rejects anyone who does not imbrace "every" new idea. Not really as "open to debate" as you claim from my experiance.
ATLANTIC CENTRALMy Fords have gotten me everywhere I need to go and been economical and reliable to own.
I think you meant to say Toyota or Honda.
I've never been to Cumberland, Maryland, however there must be something in the water there that makes people speak the truth. You make heap big sense, Kemosabe!
Jimmy
ROUTE ROCK!
Driline ATLANTIC CENTRALMy Fords have gotten me everywhere I need to go and been economical and reliable to own. I think you meant to say Toyota or Honda.
They too make great cars, but I prefer and need larger and roomy vehicles generally outside their product choices. My pickups need 8' beds and, I considered an Avalon, but the new Taurus was a better value and has all wheel drive. Read the reviews its getting.
Your comment made me think of a lot of things, but where we stand in the hobby now vs the older hobby equipment is almost like light years ahead technically.
Lets just say compare LL/Walther's Berkshire with Bachmanns. You can pick-point compare features, but you get what you pay for, but compare it with the Rivarrossi they are both light years ahead.
I own RR and BLI/PCM y6b's compare between the 2. I look at the detail on the RR then look at the PCM, then look back at the RR, and say to myself, that detail looks fuzzy compared to the PCM. Thats the difference between technologies. I regeared, filed down flange sizes on my RR, then I buy the PCM, it outperforms my RR for all the work I put into it. I am going YAY for BLI/PCM.
But then there's this other side of the coin, and its done by masterful effect.
In an old issue of MR is a layout made by F. Lee Jaques in O scale. F. Lee Jaques was a museum Diorama artist. He painted for effect. His layout was done just like that and is absolutely amazing for what he did.
He built his steamers that looked like they were your super heavy massive Y6B like engines, with that monster crawl upgrade look, yet they were small 2-4-4-2's. Mountain scenery and backdrops expertly painted with snow scenes so real you swear you were quivering in the cold.
F. Lee Jaques took concept and simplified it for effect and works. His layout is on display at the Minnesota Museum of Mining.
Did anyone read the two articles in the latest MMR magazine?
Both guys modeled their way! Go figure.
Great looking layouts to boot!
ATLANTIC CENTRAL As I read through some of what has been posted in my absence, I start to wonder when I left the model railroading planet I was on before. Actually, this is not a new condition, just one made more obvious to me by being away a few days. I mean no disrespect or criticism to those with different views but I am amazed by: (snip) And this one takes the cake - I understand people of all ages and skills like model trains, and the increase in quality RTR models has fueled interest and activity among people who otherwise might have avoided a hobby of building, requiring mechanical/electrical skills - but when those people, who can't or won't learn the basic skills of this hobby, post their disatisfaction with prodcts that have worked well for 40 years (example: Kadee coupler springs), or complain about the most minor adjustments needed on new locos, etc, than I really do wonder if I am in the same hobby. No call for censorship here, quite the oposite. Just thinking out loud about other's opinions and comments.
(snip)
Sheldon, it's not simply your preception alone in play here, as others have already affirmed. Like it or not, a very significant dicotomy has developed in the hobby over the last decade or so, increasingly separating the traditional craftsmen model railroader from his RTR, gotta-have-the-latest-most-expensive-stuff, bretheren, many of whom, as you point out, lack much in the way modeling abilities and are often less than willing to learn. In many respects it's becoming a case of collectors vs. modelers.
Now to be clear, this is not meant as an attack on RTRers and those who have lately come into the hobby. Rather it is simply a statement of fact. The situation is one clearly evident in the on-line forums, where you find that in most cases the craftsman types have initiated their own sites and very few participate in the "general" or introductory-level forums, resulting in many false impressions of the hobby's general make-up. In many instances sites differ so dramatically in content and direction that it's a stretch of the imagination to believe they represent the same hobby.
And, I'm afraid, not only is the divide separating the two groups likely to widen in the future, I feel one faction will increasingly become less aware, nor care, that the other even exists. Such was the case when Hi-Rail and tin-plate trains were spun off from the scale hobby back in the 1950's. Unfortunately, the situation results in a progressively distorted view of what the hobby is based upon and highly biased views concerning the norm prompted by a particular site's cross section of participants. Above all, don't take what you see, or hear, on any one given site as being truly representative of hobby norms, or averages.
CNJ831
Ain't model railroading great? I started with trains at age 6 months and didn't know it because my father, a locomotive engineer for Santa Fe, couldn't wait to start "building an O scale layout for his son and him". in the 40's and 50's, as I was growing up and finding out about girls, sports, etc., I still spent a lot of time in his basement, and even managed to live at home while going through college, and was able to work for Santa Fe in clerical yard jobs during the summers to pay my way. That O gauge layout remained the "best" to me. then I left home, moved on, and discovered HO in 1959 but I still have a few cars and a loco from that O gauge layout on display in my basement. I have never been without an HO layout since 1959 and for the last 12 years have included a garden railroad out back with large curves, realistic track, etc.
My HO layout in the basement is on tour often, the current layout has been in existence since 1984, and for all purposes is a "finished layout", but I still update and change. Several years ago, while on an NMRA tour, a group arrived to visit. One was a loud mouth know it all. He had nothing good to say, criticized trackwork that I had built to get my MMR, criticized structures which had been judged in contests, complained about this and that. I stood very patiently until finally his group hustled him out. Afterwards, three of them returned to appologize for the obnoxious one. But, from that day, I adopted a policy, which is stated in print at the entryway when I am on tour, which states: "I enjoy model railroading, and I enjoy using the talents God gave me, and I enjoy the companionship of fellow modelers for operations, visits, etc. But, if you can't give constructive comments, or can't restrain your disdain until you walk out the door, then you are not welcome here. This is a hobby, and I enjoy it using what gifts and talents I have."
I have noticed the gulf developing between the people who enjoy the hobby to the extent of their talents and abilities, and those who enjoy being superior in their attitude of what is right and wrong, their way always being right, and I have realized that I would rather host a group who have a love for the hobby, and express it in whatever God given talents they have and are happy, versus the grumpy old men who feel it is their duty to bring everyone up to "their standards".
I know many of the other MMR's and have found a common desire to build up, not tear down. It was asked in a forum question several months ago, where are the MMR's. They are here, but not to flaunt but to help.
Bob
Geared Steam,
"They just want to sell me powered boxcars."
There are actually people on the forum who read all the words in a post because there are often little nuggets that are over looked. I think that a comment like the one you made, quoted above, grinny face or not, is one of the things Atlantic Central was talking about. Some people just have to sneak that zinger in. It's totally unnecessary to off-handedly insult a large part of the hobby, so why do it? Again, the grinny face doesn't justify it because you just finished expressing displeasure for those who criticize your modeling choices.
Ray
I can't add much to the discussion except this. What we have is not as important as how we use it. If what we have brings us satisfaction then it has done the job. Even better (way better!), if we can use what we have to put a smile on someone else's face then we've really accomplished something. Remember the first time a train moved under it's own power on a stretch of track you built? That thrill had nothing to do with Atlas, Kato, DCC or BMW's. Our task as hobbiests is to pass that thrill on to others.
Bill
"Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig"
I would like to thank all for their thoughtfull and insightful responses. Reading the responses, especially Pastor Bob, has confirmed the positive in all this and better defined the subject in my mind.
I would like to add the following observation about this shift in the hobby.
In years past, when a modeler of beginning or intermediate experiance could not get something to work as he expected, his first thought might be to ask an older or more experianced modeler for help or advice, which was usually cheerfully given.
Today it seems, that some, not all, have a first reaction that is quite different. They immediately blame the product in question as being cheap, defective, etc, etc. Or, if they do ask for help, and are told you need to do this, or learn how to do that, they balk, asking WHY?, I paid good money for ..........
And while product design and assembly quality has and always will vary from brand to brand, choosing to only buy "the very best" in this hobby will limit your modeling choices considerably. Learning to make the wide range of great products out there work and represent what you wish to model will on the other hand provide you decades of fun and satisfaction as Pastor Bob explained.
This really much ado about nothing. The hobby is evolving. Not to worry. Change is inevitable, struggle is an option. Back to model railroading.
If you ever fall over in public, pick yourself up and say “sorry it’s been a while since I inhabited a body.” And just walk away.
MILW-RODRWhy buy a new BMW when you can buy 2 new Chevy Malibu's (the fully loaded V-6 model) and walk away with a full bank account?
There's a reason why GM went bankrupt. And its not because they build great cars.....because they don't. Although the reliability of BMW has been dismal in recent years as well.