I agree, it has pretty much all been said....again!
-Crandell
[locked]
I have a feeling that this thread is heading into the nirvanas of model railroading.
One of the nice things about our mutual hobby is, that it has so many different aspects to it - more than any other pastime I have encountered in my life. There is room for just about any way - and it is left up to your own personal decision which way you want to go - in terms of scale, theme, era, brands, scenery, type of control - you name it!. I wish we had that many choices in our real life!
I should not forget to address one more issue - it is about respect. Maybe we should pay a little more respect to what other people do. Sometimes, I sense a certain lack of respect in threads like this one -
How about moving on to some real issues now?
Sheldon,I have 1 GP9 and 6 FA/FB's from P2K. They all had cracked gears. At my club, there are many, many more that have needed to be replaced. Any P2K with the Athearn clone drive is suspect. The P2K PA-1's & P1K DL109's that I own have never had the cracked gear problem due to their non-Athearn drive components (and not that it's an Athearn problem...P2K cloned it wrong). My Athearn-clone P2K's run, but they don't run great, not like Atlas and Kato. The PA's and DL's run great, but the GP's, et al, are merely okay...when they aren't broken.
Spectrum steam is still somewhat of a grab bag for quality. Look at their Shays. This was a great running model, but NWSL has released a re-gearing kit for it because drive failures are apparently common. I have a USRA light Mountain that actually had a pick up shoe on a driver get caught up in the spokes all by itself, which then broke off. Now, the loco runs down the track like a drunken sailor, "hunting" from side to side. At my club, many Spectrum steam engines have been returned...one was even returned twice. Spectrum has great customer service, but then they've had a lot of practice.
If you criticize someone for complaining, essentially you're telling them to stop their complaining. It may not be what you're intending to say, but that's how it comes out. If you want to debate a point, that's one thing. But to make the point that you are "amazed" (and not in a good way) by people leveling criticism is the same as saying that they shouldn't be doing so in the first place.
That's nice that you didn't pay full retail prices for your collection, but that still doesn't help your argument. The retail prices for Atlas, Kato, P2K, and Spectrum are all about the same, not 40% more. That's a fact. Atlas and Kato can deliver high quality drives for that price range, and Atlas can deliver not only a consistantly great drive but with great detailing, too. Why can't P2K or Spectrum?
It's obvious you don't see these problems that people have as something that concerns you. And to tell the truth, they aren't really problems for me, either. But then, not everyone has 20 years (me) or 40 years (you) of model railroading experience to conquer these kinds of problems. MR, as a general rule, tends to get more beginners than other mags, and this website is no different. There are far, far more "less than expert" railroad modelers here than on any other webforum I've ever seen, and we should try to keep that in mind. Heck, there are a lot of teenagers here, too, that don't have the decades of modeling experience that would allow them to figure out answers to problems that we have solved a dozen times or more.
With Atlas track switches, it's not just the frogs. The electrical connections aren't exactly 100% reliable, and on the Code 83's, the points can need some work with a file and some pliers to get them to be "right". I have many of them, and some are great out of the box but others are basketcases.
As for the long diverging route of any switch...it's easier to cut something off than to add something on. I'd rather do a little trimming on a switch than have to add a bunch of 1" pieces of rail to a yard ladder like on some old Code 100 Atlas switches I used to have.
About the CV kits, again, if I had a million bucks and unlimited time, they wouldn't bother me if they were more delicate. I'd have time to fix them.
Personally, if I'm building a switch, I prefer to use the Fast Track jigs. I wouldn't use Atlas parts on a bet.
As for judging, who said anything about judging? I just said that we should strive to be better and to resist the urge to rest on our laurels.
It's like this: we have folks here who aren't that skilled and they never get any better. But instead of admitting they aren't that good and they can't get better due to a lack of skill, ability, cash, or time to learn, they turn around and blame "rivet counters" for "ruining the hobby". When confronted, they wave the "It's my railroad and I can do what I want!" banner. Sigh. Yes, it's their railroad (and hobby), and they can do whatever they want. But let's not pretend that the flat sheet of plywood with green sawdust sprinkled on it with snap track without roadbed nailed to it is the zenith of model railroading skill and should be good enough for everyone...that even rivet counters should be happy with something like that. They need to realize that some people enjoy being detail specific, and that rivet counters are not "evil".
CP5415,The only one on this forum that has whipped out the "you're not a model railroader" line has been "CNJ" John B., and even he's toned it down a tad. Instead, we have far more people complaining about rivet counters than you have rivet counters complaining about "good enoughers".
Telling newbies what is and isn't "crap" is great for this hobby, IMHO. I wish someone would have told me about things when I was new. I could have avoided a lot of decisions that became painful in time, or wasted money immediately.
And pray tell, what "young child" is going to play with HO trains in the first place? That's what Brio, American Flyer, Lionel, or LGB is for.
You gave a 4 year old an IHC 0-8-0? Um, was that wise? Small parts, choking hazards, etc.?
Buying robust but cheaper locos are fine for most any newbie, but after learning the basics, isn't it time to take the training wheels off?
BTW, that brings me to another point...what about these low-cost engines and the possible damage to a newbie's interest in HO scale? My neighbor, an A-F fan for many years, tried to get into HO scale back in the 1980's. He bought Tyco, Bachmann and Life-Like locos, and was so disappointed in their lack of running quality that he went back to American Flyer. If he had bought some Atlas locos, he might have stayed in HO scale.
Rivet counters are some of the more helpful people I know. They will tell you what's wrong with just about anything. And if you ask them nicely, they may even have some ideas on how to fix it. But just like with any group of people, there are those who are jerks. They can't be avoided on initial contact, but they can be safely ignored if need be. Many, many more, however, will be helpful if given the chance.
Brakie,While I have the desire to be "museum quality", I don't have the skills (yet). I'm a long, long way off. But don't forget, I'm an Operator 1st and foremost. My trains must run or they are gone. I'm the Operations Chairman of my club, and in fact, later today (Thursday) I have a session ready to go. Two hours, 30+ trains, 12 to 24 members, and 6 local freights on a 6:1 Fast Clock with 2 dispatchers. And it's even "All Steam" night, too.
Paul A. Cutler III*******************Weather Or No Go New Haven*******************
Well, well, 5 pages from people that really like to fool around with model railroads and have fun, what kind of concept is that? some not interested in DC-3, locomotives that say choo-choo, having 4,000 cars, some in boxes, and not collecting 450 brass locomotives. I must commend many on this post to admitting to a cavalier attitude toward model railroading, imagine enjoying yourself taking home a plastic cattle car from a train show you bought for $1.50, how about just going downstairs and just watching your nondescript railway going around in circles, great ! ! I have had my faith renewed, reading all the good messages, good on all you guys, hooray for our side. have fun
jwhitten Capital idea there mate! Maybe we could call the first type MODEL Railroading and the second type Model RAILROADING... Whaddaya think?
Capital idea there mate! Maybe we could call the first type MODEL Railroading and the second type Model RAILROADING...
Whaddaya think?
I tend to the modelling side myself but I don't have the existential angst thing going --- there must be a taxonomy for that but I'm not sure where that goes
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
Driline You could call it a crayon for "SNOBS" if you like A bit more expensive don't you know....
You could call it a crayon for "SNOBS" if you like
A bit more expensive don't you know....
Some that my wife gets come from some French company----at $5.65 a pop for a 3" stick
blownout cylinderOr maybe we need to distinguish between the contest version of improving one's skills wherein one fights it out in an all out existential battle with someone who does something better than oneself and one that concentrates on 'why does 'X' not work here---and figuring it out for oneself" I know some work better with the first but ----
Or maybe we need to distinguish between the contest version of improving one's skills wherein one fights it out in an all out existential battle with someone who does something better than oneself and one that concentrates on 'why does 'X' not work here---and figuring it out for oneself" I know some work better with the first but ----
John
tomikawaTTThe present level of popular eyeball-filler takes an hour to tell 20 minutes worth of story, with six interludes during which folks try to sell a dozen products and services totally unrelated to the drama they interrupt.
Ah, but the products are related to the program. That's how I entertain myself if nothing needs to be fetched from the fridge or deposited back in the bathroom after a brief warm-up cycle. These interruptions provide a puzzle. It's up to you to figure out the target demographic of the program by watching the commercials. Ads for laundry detergent and wrinkle cream indicate a middle-aged female audience, while gory movie trailers and gaming systems are looking for young males.
So, next time you're asking yourself, "Why am I watching this trash?" ignore the show and study the commercials. You'll probably discover that they don't care about you at all. Are there any Walthers ads? How about Woodland Scenics roadbed ads?
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
Sheldon. .... Thanks for starting the thread. I can relate to your first post.
I have been in the hobby for a lifetime, and much of mt modleing has evolved with it.
I started building my current layout when we moved to this location in 2001. I have had so many prior layouts I lost count of the. The plan is a double track mainline with a loop and a terminal at each end. The loops are intended to allow continuous running or simply turn a train's direction. There are numerous industries along the mainline, and there are some branch lines.
I do not like looking at just boards and tracks, and so I am building one section at a time with scenery.
Now, I am ficussing on CB&Q in 1950's and 1960's, but have equipment from many railroads.
My oldest locomotvie is a Tenshodo NYC 4-6-4 which I have owned continuously for about 55 Years. I rebuilt it in recent years, and it runs and looks fine.
I have cars and locomotives from lots of HO manufacturers including many that have long been out of business. They are made from all sorts materials ........ wood, metal, plastic, etc.
I like the fine details on today's R-T-R imports. However, I would prefer to see more models made in teh USA.
GARRY
HEARTLAND DIVISION, CB&Q RR
EVERYWHERE LOST; WE HUSTLE OUR CABOOSE FOR YOU
The term "better" is a relative term. We all take it generically to mean "improved in some undefined or defined way". If you tell me that something could be better about my modelling, and I don't understand, or do and still reject the notion, then it is not better...just different.
Unless I change my perception and understanding of my modelling, and then agree with you that I could make it better as you define it, it won't change. As soon as I accept your premis(es), and can "see" how my modelling could change for the better, that becomes my new ideal. Even then, I may or may not choose to effect the change(s). Other factors may preclude doing anything at all, but I'll still see that it could be "better".
And David is correct...each one of us, by written words and projections [images posted and other suspected or imagined characteristics] gives an impression to people looking on. For some of us, that changes over time. It depends on the values the onlookers place in the changes. It may not be a "positive" change.
To finish, each of us is looking for some form of affirmation or acceptance here...maybe even just acknowledgement. There don't have to be hearty high-fives, but just a respectful inclusiveness and a willingness to discuss and exchange ideas without so much overt judgement...terms that demean or put down either the poster or his way of enjoying the hobby.
Driline Paul3They may have eaten the crayons, but that's about the extent of it. And there are a few modelers here still eating their crayons
Paul3They may have eaten the crayons, but that's about the extent of it.
And there are a few modelers here still eating their crayons
Personally, the blue ones are my favorite. The brown ones taste too much like chicken and ketchup on red crayons is like carrying coals to Newcastle.
Darrell, quiet...for now
Paul3: Personally, I resist the call to accept mediocre modeling as the norm. We should all strive to be better modelers. ---------------------------------------
Agreed, but who gets to be the judge?
Sheldon
-------------------------
Sheldon,We must judge ourselves base solely on our capabilities with the understanding in the real world mediocre modeling seems to be the norm based on the modelers skills,time,understanding and above all desire and without that desire we will find no need to arise above that norm if our models blends in with Average Joe modeler down at the club and we become comfortable and happy with our modeling style and if we are happy then who's to judge our chosen modeling style?.
Brother Paul may have the desire to do museum quality modeling(and he does judging by the few pictures I recall seeing) but,I don't and wouldn't want to since operation is my thing..
Now when I was younger I had this desire to model to the Nth degree with everything detailed to include cars with air hoses and uncoupling levers.All cabooses was to carry marker lights.This I did for several years.
What happened?
Thanks for asking.
Reality kicked in and I found I enjoyed operation more then spending hours at the work desk detailing a car or locomotive.Good enough/close enough became my modeling style with a minimalist approach.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
PackerAren't pastel sticks technically crayons?
Technically no. But similar. Here is the definition:
"A drawing medium of dried paste made of ground pigments and a water-based binder that is manufactured in crayon form."
CP5415 What isn't good for this hobby is telling new comers that this or that is crap!
Now, if someone wanted to really help that person they COULD mention how they could buy a better product--be it through the internet stores, or Ebay, or what have you---they COULD also show the poor fellow how 'X' is done
But then, some of us are lacking in some social skills I guess
CP5415Well over half my diesel fleet are Athearn. Lube them up, clean the wheels & they go back to work!
If some people keep on about realistic operations they'll have to mention the realistic operations behind Locomotive Maintenence.
Aren't pastel sticks technically crayons?
Vincent
Wants: 1. high-quality, sound equipped, SD40-2s, C636s, C30-7s, and F-units in BN. As for ones that don't cost an arm and a leg, that's out of the question....
2. An end to the limited-production and other crap that makes models harder to get and more expensive.
We could go on & on & on about this & where will it get us? Nowhere!
I had enough of the "that's not good enough for modelers or You're not a model railroader" bs over a year ago so I took time away from here. Obviously....... things haven't changed!
What isn't good for this hobby is telling new comers that this or that is crap!
How is a young child going to be able to afford an Altas or Kato locomotive? How? Mom & Dad may or may not get involved & when they look at the price, they'll probably end up fainting. Also not everyone is inclined to go online to look for deals.
There is nothing wrong with the cheaper offerings from Athearn, IHC, Accurail etc etc etc to get started with. NOTHING.
I just gave my 4 yr old son a IHC 0-8-0 steam loco for his birthday & he was estactic over it
I have several IHC locomotives, they work great for what I want them for & have never had a problem with them. I will admit that the IHC passenger cars suck out of the box, but for another $10, I have a decent rolling passanger car that will navigate an 18" curve which is what most newcomers will end up using as this is the radius curve track that most Model Train Sets come with.
Well over half my diesel fleet are Athearn. Lube them up, clean the wheels & they go back to work!
So what if they are not Prototypical for CP Rail. I don't have the time or patience right now to make them protoypical. They look good enough to me, that's good enough for me! Allen McClelland mentions something like that a video on the V&O I have.
Until the rivet counters start helping the newcomers, instead of hindering, this hobby will continue to shrink.
Gordon
Brought to you by the letters C.P.R. as well as D&H!
K1a - all the way
Dave Vollmer I don't get a sense that the OP was looking to tear open the age-old perceived-yet-non-existent rift between the so-called "craftsman" and the so-called "RTR crowd." These are useless labels that people throw around in arguments that have no point. Rather I think the OP was elucidating his frustration at some people's denouncements of top-quality hobby products as poor or beneath them. I'm sorry, I have to agree. I can give manufacturers as much guff as any when it comes to accuracy (Joe at Micro Trains has dealt directly with my ire for every botched N scale Pennsy and Conrail offering!), but I would never presume to disparage other modelers who choose these products. Moreover, we now have the best operating track and trains, as a whole than we've ever had before. You will not convince me otherwise. I submit that the OP's point was if something's not 100% up to snuff, we as model railroaders (and I mean EVERYONE HERE) should not be adverse to tinkering a little to make things right. That does not necessitate a "craftsman versus RTR" argument where one is not warranted. All that does is send people to their corners to sulk.
I don't get a sense that the OP was looking to tear open the age-old perceived-yet-non-existent rift between the so-called "craftsman" and the so-called "RTR crowd." These are useless labels that people throw around in arguments that have no point.
Rather I think the OP was elucidating his frustration at some people's denouncements of top-quality hobby products as poor or beneath them. I'm sorry, I have to agree. I can give manufacturers as much guff as any when it comes to accuracy (Joe at Micro Trains has dealt directly with my ire for every botched N scale Pennsy and Conrail offering!), but I would never presume to disparage other modelers who choose these products. Moreover, we now have the best operating track and trains, as a whole than we've ever had before. You will not convince me otherwise.
I submit that the OP's point was if something's not 100% up to snuff, we as model railroaders (and I mean EVERYONE HERE) should not be adverse to tinkering a little to make things right. That does not necessitate a "craftsman versus RTR" argument where one is not warranted. All that does is send people to their corners to sulk.
Dave, you did get the point! Thank you for your well thought restatement of it.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL OR that I did not see them as "problems
This is interesting---in the prototypical world if a locomotive had to be tweeked a little that was all that was done--there was no kvetching about how poor the quality was. It was just dealt with and there they went.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Paul3Personally, I resist the call to accept mediocre modeling as the norm. We should all strive to be better modelers. Agreed, but who gets to be the judge?
Paul3Personally, I resist the call to accept mediocre modeling as the norm. We should all strive to be better modelers.
A detached observer from Mars perhaps?
Paul3 Personally, I resist the call to accept mediocre modeling as the norm. We should all strive to be better modelers. We may not all get there, but let's recognize achievement and the desire for it, not get into a stagnating pattern where a lack of progress is waved off with "I'll do what I want!" attitude. Reminds me of art class back in grade school. Some kids never got past the crayon level of art, while others went on to try pastels, pottery, and oil paint. The difference here is that back in art class, the crayon kids never said, "It's my art and I can do what I want!". They may have eaten the crayons, but that's about the extent of it. Paul A. Cutler III*******************Weather Or No Go New Haven*******************
Personally, I resist the call to accept mediocre modeling as the norm. We should all strive to be better modelers. We may not all get there, but let's recognize achievement and the desire for it, not get into a stagnating pattern where a lack of progress is waved off with "I'll do what I want!" attitude. Reminds me of art class back in grade school. Some kids never got past the crayon level of art, while others went on to try pastels, pottery, and oil paint. The difference here is that back in art class, the crayon kids never said, "It's my art and I can do what I want!". They may have eaten the crayons, but that's about the extent of it.
Paul,
Well said, the entire post, but especially the item quoted above.
You missed the point. I agree with most all your "technical" comments, But I must say I have only experianced a few of them. Except for a few cracked gears on stuff made 10-15 years ago, all my Proto locos run great. So do my Spectrum steam. "Mediocre performance"? I guess I am on a different planet, or maybe its my inferior control system that makes them run so good? I don't have any Spectrum diesels as they are not in my era just like most of the offerings from Atlas and Kato. And I didn't pay anywhere near any of those pices for any of my locos, except maybe my newest Proto F7's.
And, I never called for anyone to stop saying whatever they want, I just responed to it. Again, with the point that I have not had most of these problems OR that I did not see them as "problems".
As for Atlas track, I like it for the same reason you do, and I see its only flaw as being the sometimes rasied up frogs, easily fixed. I have lots of issues with all those other brands of turnouts that cost much more. One of my biggest complaints with many of them is the long lead on the divirging route that almost always has to be cut - why is it there? On PECO's I don't like the curved frogs of the old line or the "snap" throwbar. I know others like these features and that's fine. I don't constantly complain about these things to other modelers, in fact I don't bring it up unless asked, I just don't buy the stuff. ME track, OK, but CV switch kits, well let me tell you, I built a few and you can keep them. They look great but I expect my trains to run and with a layout containing over 100 turnouts, I need something more durable than those things. Now days, when I need a custom turnout, I use the frog and points from an Atlas turnout to hand lay one.
blownout cylinder Love the staircase, Mark. Question ---from where on that site did you get that shot?
Love the staircase, Mark. Question ---from where on that site did you get that shot?
The site is the Knossos Minoan Palace in Crete. Took the photo about five years ago while wandering around the palace. The upper stories are obviously gone. The site is quite ancient.
http://www.explorecrete.com/Knossos/knossos.html
At another historic Greek site, there was a contingent of military recruits touring. My conclusion was that it is a Greek policy to educate its soldiers to appreciate/defend their heritage.
Mark
Sheldon,Your original post on this subject:Atlas and Kato are better than P2K and Spectrum steam, at least in drive quality and consistancy. That's a fact. New Atlas and Kato engines cost approx. the same as new P2K and Spectrum steam, not 40% more. That's also a fact. Kato's are $125-$180, Atlas w/o sound are $110-$180, while P2K are $125-$180, and Spectrum steam locos are $125-$190 w/o sound. So I guess the question becomes if Atlas and Kato can make superb locos with dependable drives for $180 or less, why can't P2K or Spectrum (in their diesel line)? And why should those who want that kind of quality and prefer that kind of quality have to apologize for wanting it? Likewise, why should we tone down any call for improving quality or tone down our complaints about the sometimes shoddy work that P2K and Spectrum continue to produce?
Speculating on new releases is just for fun, you know. Athearn, Walthers, Con-Cor, Kato, etc. Atlas will even play with us over on their forum, giving us hints that drive people bonkers...in a good way. All in all, speculating on this forum about new products is pretty harmless. No different from heading to the LHS and chatting with other customers.
Atlas track is not like it's state of the art. It's not the most accurate, it does have oversized "spikes", it only has provision for track nails, and it does have problems with switch continuity and frog height. These are facts, not opinions. That is legitimate criticism, and is not based on "snob prices" and brass Code 100 rail but actual problems with all their track lines, including Code 83 track. The criticism will stop once Atlas improves their track line...just like in any other industry.
As for those that assume facts not in evidence, well, right back atcha. Not everyone is an electrical engineer with access to cheap electrical components who wants to wire up their layout to avoid DCC, and not everyone is a sound engineer that needs to have 100% realistic sound in their locos before they can enjoy sound locos.
Which brings me to this point: aren't you being a tad hypocritical here? You say that people should be okay with accepting mediocre performance from P2K and Spectrum and that people should be okay with questionable Atlas track quality, but what about sound? You have made it clear on many occasions that only 100% realistic sound is acceptable for you. In fact, you've said once that you wanted wireless headphones that would reproduce all diesel sounds based on how close your head is to every loco on the layout, so if you lean back it gets softer (and you can pick up that Alco behind you) and if you lean forward you get louder volume of that Baldwin running past you. Why do you feel it's not okay for us to complain about model railroading offerings but it's perfectly okay for you to complain about it? What's good for the goose, and all that.
As for me, I like Atlas track because it's cheap and easy to work with. If I had a million bucks and all the time in the world, I'd use M.E. track and handlay the switches with CV kits.
I own many P2K engines, but that's because Atlas and Kato don't make everything I want. But if Atlas and Kato make the same engines as P2K, I'd buy them first because of P2K's drive issues.
I enjoy tinkering with my locos, but I think that paying more than $125 for a plastic loco should result in a perfect drive that doesn't need tinkering.
Nah, we're all on the same planet, Sheldon.
markpierceI knew this was where this thread was headed:
I knew this was where this thread was headed:
Modeling the Rio Grande Southern First District circa 1938-1946 in HOn3.
Silver PilotThe point being is that as things (technology, manufacturing process etc) improve, some of the old ways of doing things are not always relevant now. I'd much rather spend my time, money and effort adding detail to that already scale width hood than taking some old Athearn body shell and cutting into pieces to make a scale width hood just to be able say I did it. The cost savings isn't worth the time it would take.
What you brought up is true, up to a point. My point being that I--or others for that matter-- may not be thinking in terms of the dollar/time thing. It can be the same type of scenario of the aesthetic collector who is paying only attention on the locomotives looks---totally disregarding cost factors.
The issue I have is one of finding body types that would be along the lines of a GMD1 then modifying it and then retrucking the thing so that it would be a GMD1 with A1A-A1A wheelsets---these are not so commercially viable as there were only---maybe 6 of them running by the 1980's. I do these for the enjoyment factor. Not the cost/time factor----after all--maybe the point should be are there any other value systems to look at as to why one does things than the dollar/time one currently in vogue?
And how one does 'X' in contrast to how another does the same thing should only be seen as a difference --without the hierarchical rhetoric so often thrown around. We do not need to place a hierarchy in place of a simple difference.