Wow...I see the "duckunder" is a big issue and I see why. My layout is currently under construction and it is a "duckunder" that should be called a "bruise-under". I'll have to live with that. In the past my biggest mistakes were "Being in a hurry and bad planning". I should have stuck with the "6 P" program I learned in the Navy. "Prior Planning Prevents P*** Poor Performance". Now I'm taking my time, based on a good plan and enjoying it except for the bruises.
1. Try much harder to stick to my plan, not to have the latest and greatest, such as sound, just a good running layout.
2. Despite my age and eyes go with N so that the curves would be more realistic and more could be done with the available space.
A. Positively NO duckunders, even if it means reducing the amount of layout I could build and operate.
B. Better plan wiring schematic, color code wiring, and install drops on every bit of track, no matter how short it is.
C. Reduce the trackage volume. To model well, it isn't necessary to have everything on the layout.
Trainman
If I were to start over:
- I wouldn't waste 20 years in the armchair. I could have gained valuable experience soldering feeder wires to rail without melting the ties or make my flextrack stay straight or ... or .... or ......
- I wouldn't collect HO stuff while not having the room for it.
- I would find a way around the limits of time, money and space by starting small, with a N-scale switching layout.
- I would invent a N-scale modular single track system like oNetrack or Fremo America-N way sooner and it would be around a Midwest theme instead of the desert southwest that all European modellers of American prototype seem so fond of. I like the Midnight & Still Later or Chicago Great Weedy way better than Uncle Pete or Shouldn't Paint / So Fast.
- I would discover Ebay sooner.
etc.
greetings,
1. Use only Kadee coupler.
2. Start in DCC.
3. Buy only DCC ready locomotives.
4. Model for better operations.
The rights of neutrality will only be respected, when they are defended by an adequate power. A nation, despicable by its weakness, forfeits even the privilege of being neutral. -Alexander Hamilton
For me, the one thing I would do differently is focus earlier on only one road to model, maybe two. As much as I like railroads, having a huge collection of equipment is both time consuming and expensive. I often do not have the time to work on what I have to do let alone what I want to do. Additionally, I would go into DCC as well. Right now, I am so heavily invested in DC control that going DCC would be a huge expense that I can not afford. When I started in the hobby, DCC was nonexistant and there were no options. I would have gone digital at the first opportunity.
I would still maintain standards of using metal wheelsets, Kadee couplers and properly weighting and balancing my cars. It's just that I would probably do better by having fewer to maintain.
Keep 'em rolling!
Things I have learned already and would recommend:
complete the trackwork and LABELLED wiring before doing scenery. Over-engineer these aspects.
use metal wheels, reliable couplers, high quality locos, and properly weighted rolling stock
Things I will try to do better next time:
narrow the scope of my pike. As much as I love modeling impressive mountain vistas, industry, and urban areas, it seems that "having it all" is very tough to pull off convincingly in my space (15 x 29 feet)
use hand thrown switches if they are close at hand. Sometimes I have to reach farther to press a button than to just throw the switch manually!
buy and use CAD software that permits simulated operation. Many years ago I bought track planning software for my first layout. I'm sure it is absolutely crude by today's standards. I was going to use it for my current layout but discovered it was so old (floppy discs) that my current computers couldn't use it. Rather than buy a more updated version, I planned my current layout on graph paper - while this proved to be quite accurate, it didn't let me run trains before building... and only afterwards did I realize that certain elements of my plan just weren't very practical...aka a pain in the rear.
Like some other posters, if I were starting the hobby today, I would go straight to DCC. However, I have so much DC, including my late father's stuff that I keep for sentimental reasons, it's not really in the cards to convert at this point. As a sidepoint, I've wondered from time to time if it's possible to have both DC and DCC on the same layout...simply remove the DC locos and put DCC locos on the tracks, turn all of the DC blocks "ON", and switch over to DCC power?
Cheers.
When I moved into my current house which has more room, I essentially expanded my original track plan and made it double track without modifying the overall main line design. I had to retrofit staging where it would fit. I would have been better off to do more research, talked to people who know layout design, and started from scratch, maybe with a double deck design. When we moved in I had only partially completed one small section.
I would like to have more number 6 and 8 turnouts and fewer number 4s.
I have a freelance layout and have finally started to reletter cars for my own road. It takes a loooong time. Maybe should have picked a prototype.....
George V.
A truly great forum topic, Frank. Thanks for starting it.
First, a dumb question - 'twhite' said:
"4: Make sure that the loco facilities for your helper districts are at the BOTTOM of the grade."
Why ? Is this a suggested model-railroad operational constraint only?
At age 66, have been 'working' on my railroad now for about 4 years. Previous time was spent 'planning' and 'dreaming' - and too many other interests.
I should have built more small layouts early on - even if not 'perfect', or even well planned. That was the experience I did not really get, and now it shows. I have all these constraints in planning, from Tony K's desire for 1" subroadbed to John Armstrong's warnings about S-curves and other details. What I do not have is experience, experience, experience. That's one reason this forum is a good one for me.
One way to get that experience would have been to join a good club (good clubs are often very hard to find). Even tho I've always been a loner, I should have been in an organization where I could learn.
Contrary to some advice, I would have bought *more* Athearn blue-box locos, including more dummies (the unpowered kind, not the kind I represent..). I really like detailing these old units, adding DCC, and putting sound in a dummy accompanying a powered unit or two. I've purchased power pickup trucks for these, and even dummy chassis', from Athearn parts. Now, of course, blue box items are in short supply, and some are even priced up as collector items, a trend which will only continue.
So: my best advice to those starting out (younger) is to get some plywood, get some track, build something small to test your ideas. Do it again. Find out what YOU like, what works for YOU, so you have some experience with which to judge all these comments.
Party less.
And - you will have more fun in the long run.
Dick Chaffer / Bozeman / modeling MRL
Update on my progress and lessons learned.
1. Before starting out on benchwork or any high-dollar item, fully research and stick to a plan. After spending roughly $40 on a bad idea, I've corrected my mistake and now I am making progress. Need to follow my own advice from earlier. At least I can use my mistake for staging benchwork.
2. Progress can require high dollar purchases. To cut my benchwork, I had to replace my 20+ year old economy jigsaw. I did the right thing and purchased a high quality replacement and have been greatly satisfied with it.
3. DCC system is a needed expense. I did my researched and picked up a beginner system that can be upgraded to a larger/better system later.
4. Buildings are expensive. I'm trying to scratchbuild where I can and use kits where I can.
Nate
twhite 4: Make sure that the loco facilities for your helper districts are at the BOTTOM of the grade. (not on my present one, but on my last one. At least I learned THAT much! )
4: Make sure that the loco facilities for your helper districts are at the BOTTOM of the grade. (not on my present one, but on my last one. At least I learned THAT much! )
Helper facilities at the TOP of the grade are what I'm planning to do and doubt that decision will be reversed. In this instance, the top of the grade is where staging begins and shortly starts downgrade. Helpers are added to trains just before going to staging, and helpers return from staging. The purpose is to model helper services and movements although they aren't necessary for pulling the trains up a grade. Result? More operations and a reason to have more of those slow, compound, articulated locomotives (Mallets) on the layout. Tom, you should sympathize with that result. ?
So, how's 'bout them apples?
Mark
1. Figure out what railroad, either prototype of fictional, I want to model.
2. Figure out how much space I could realistically have for a layout.
3. Figure out whether to use the space to model a main line or a branch line.
4. Figure out what industries I actually want to model and invest time and effort in.
There are many good suggestions here.
I have started many layouts in my lifetime, and have torn them down before completion due to moving.
My present layout, therefore, is one that could possibly be moved without destroying it.
My layout is mostly "around the wall" and the benchwork is sectional. The construction design is based on the "domino construction" as reported in Model Railroader over the years. The artcles are by David Barrow (I may noy have spelled that correctly).
Next, I am building just a few sections at a time. I complete whole sections including scenery before going on to the next part of the layout. That way, I have a portion of a layout that can be operated as is.
I agree with the "no duck unders" comments. Everything should be within an arms reach if at all possible.
GARRY
HEARTLAND DIVISION, CB&Q RR
EVERYWHERE LOST; WE HUSTLE OUR CABOOSE FOR YOU
Frank
Your point 2 - Steel axles WILL BE attracted to under tie magnets, hence useKadee wheel-sets (they have a plastic axle) or any other wheelset with BRASS axles.
One thing I say to a person starting and has not decided on a prototype - "Choose one with a bright colour scheme". I started with the D&RGW because of the Colorado scenery. But getting very good photos is a pain because of the black loco's, usually too much contrast in the image.
Robert
Hello,
wanted to add more to my list of items that will or will not be done again in the next layout:
1, Staging yard on an incline (had to do it out of space restrictions)
2, The staging yard will have to be long enough for each track to be able to hold an entire full length freight
3, Con-Cor passenger cars will not be purchased again
4, Only Kadee couplers, even though the other brands create realistic pull aparts on the helix.
5, Build the lowest level of the layout first
6, Use a computer power supply for lights, but use inline fuses to restrict fault current to a max of 2 amps
7, Use a roller test stand to lubricate the locomotives when they are running
8, Hopefully have a basement that is empty for the next layout.
9, Have biggest possible radius for the helix
10, Build the gates that fold down which carry tracks across the entrance to prevent a duck under situation more solid
I know this is an older post, but I like to revisit it occasionally for the new members. This is a gold mine of great information thanks to the participation of the forum members. All the experiences mentioned by all the forum members is the result of many many years of experience and as a result can save us all a great deal of time, money and aggravation.
Thank you everybody.
"If you need a helping hand, you'll find one at the end of your arm."
I would have gone with a double track around the wall layout and a duck ( hinged if you didn't want to duck )under by the door
51% share holder in the ME&O ( Wife owns the other 49% )
ME&O
Gone N-scale
--Zak Gardner
My Layout Blog: http://mrl369dude.blogspot.com
http://zgardner18.rrpicturearchives.net
VIEW SLIDE SHOW: CLICK ON PHOTO BELOW
zgardner18Gone N-scale
Ironic, because there are times I wish I had gone HO scale. I worry I'm going to struggle with the N-scale details.
I also wish I had more considered a walk around layout.
I would have negotiated with my wife for more basement R/W so that I could have (HO) 30 inch radius curves instead of Kato 26.375" radius with easements--but I was trying not to take too much of the basement so there'd be room for exercise, dancing along with a video (we someday want to do dance lessons), and the children's play area, etc. It is an around the wall layout, folded dogbone, with a return loop at each end.
The primary reason being that most equipment looks better at 30" radius, and whether you build it or not, they will come--meaning either you or your guests may someday want to run brass models or other larger equipment than originally planned for. I can see from current advertisements that even current brass 4-6-6-4's are being designed to operate on 30" radius, so if I had it to do over, I'd have taken a few more inches. At 26" radius, there will be some brass locomotives I cannot run.
Even though I'm now firmly in the steam era, my tunnels were designed for double stack container trains, and even though they are on curves, the tunnels can accommodate most current RTR steam locomotives regardless of how severe the overhang might be. The MTH 4-12-2 clears one tunnel portal by 1/8 of an inch even at full speed. The MTH 4-6-6-4 is also good, and I'm sure the Athearn Big Boy I have coming will also clear!
I'm 41, this is the 3rd, and very possibly the last layout, of my life.
Best Regards--
John
RRCanuckI've wondered from time to time if it's possible to have both DC and DCC on the same layout...simply remove the DC locos and put DCC locos on the tracks, turn all of the DC blocks "ON", and switch over to DCC power?
Actually, if your layout is properly blocked for DC, you can do both. "DCC" is then simply another "cab" that can be switched to a block. Run all the other blocks the way you normally would have in straight DC mode. Or vise-versa, doesn't matter which way you do it as long as its separated. Depending on your decoders, your DCC locos might even run okay on the DC side. But of course the reverse will not be true.
jrcBozeFirst, a dumb question - 'twhite' said:"4: Make sure that the loco facilities for your helper districts are at the BOTTOM of the grade."Why ? Is this a suggested model-railroad operational constraint only?
Prolly so your train stays *parked* while you're switching around the locos...
da_kraut Hello everybody,it seems that there are a lot of new people in the forum as well as we all have different levels of experience. So I thought it might be a good idea to ask the question as to what would you do if you had to start over again or are in the process of changing on your layout. Also post the items you would not change if you were to start over again.What are your experiences?Frank
Hello everybody,
it seems that there are a lot of new people in the forum as well as we all have different levels of experience. So I thought it might be a good idea to ask the question as to what would you do if you had to start over again or are in the process of changing on your layout. Also post the items you would not change if you were to start over again.
What are your experiences?
What a fabulous question!
For me, as tempting as it is to rattle off a list, it is really only one thing--
Get off my butt and start *doing stuff* sooner. I have missed out on years of Model Railroading, camaraderie and friendships by sitting on the sidelines and waiting for the "perfect conditions" to develop before digging-in. I will not make that mistake again.
Great questions and I have actually wondered about it myself.
What I would change...
1. Make wider aisles - especially between the layout and any immovable object - like the basement wall,
2. Build the layout with the idea of some day having to move it from one house to another.
3. Start with DCC right away - took me a few years to see the light
4, No duckunders - I have the bruises to prove it
5. Hang the lights, ceiling and insulate before ever laying one piece of track
6, Read and plan more
7. Don't second guess myself and understand that if it pleases me that's all that matters
8. Don't wait for something to go on sale - especially if it's for the LS&I
What I wouldn't change
1, Take the time to test and re-test everything.
2. Remove any piece of rolling stock or a loco when and where it derails and find out why
3. Use Kadee couplers, Shinohara turnouts, Digitrax DCC and continue to buy the best I can afford.
4. Subscribe to MR - and, yes, the Dream Plan Build series. I know they are pricey, maybe not always well done - but they have been a good source of information.
5. Build rock solid benchwork, don't use nails and move a screw if it will be under anything.
6. Take lots of pictures of the area I am modeling and use them as reference.
7. Pay off the hobby credit card every month
8. Remember to let out the dog - especially when she comes downstairs to get me
There's never time to do it right, but always time to do it over.....
I guess first and foremost would have been not buying nearly as much locomotives, rolling stock and structures until I actually had a layout to put them on. I have hundreds if not thousands of dollars tied up in HO stuff that has, and will never be, put to use...but I can't bring myself to part with because "who knows, someday.....".
Second would have been to spend some of the money saved by #1 to actually build small do-able skill builder layouts...even if they were temporary "tail chasers". 30 years of arm-chairing and I don't want to count how many false starts on grand plans has met with health driven declining abilities to leave me near skill-less now that I'm actually building something.
Reality...an interesting concept with no successful applications, that should always be accompanied by a "Do not try this at home" warning.
Hundreds of years from now, it will not matter what my bank account was, the sort of house I lived in, or the kind of car I drove...But the world may be different because I did something so bafflingly crazy that my ruins become a tourist attraction.
"Oooh...ahhhh...that's how this all starts...but then there's running...and screaming..."
Well, I AM starting over, and here is what I learned:
There's more that I didn't list and/or I can't think of at the moment.
My Model Railroad: Tri State RailMy Photos on Flickr: FlickrMy Videos on Youtube: YoutubeMy Photos on RRPA: RR Picture Archives
1) no duckunders or access openings
2) better access to hidden staging
3) i would have bought a "topside creeper" much earlier
4) would have been more careful about superelevating curves on grades
5) NO HIDDEN MAINLINE TRACKS!!!!!!!
1.) Never bought that damned Kato N-scale TGV set, that thing has some shoddy draw-bars and solder. I bought the thing new, and I still have not gotten a reply back as to when they will fix it. I already have build better drawbars for it....
2.) Never bought an Athearn engine, as they stopped making kits and selling replacement parts for the kit engines that I have.
3.) Gotten into TT scale earlier. The 1" = 10' makes scratchbuilding design a lot easier than converting 1:87 or 1:160.
4.) Put more thought into my last HO scale layout's design. (Too cramped)
5.) Never use roadbed track. Roadbed track is almost always of low quality and limits what one can do with their layout.
Things I would keep:
1.) The old Varney steamers that I rebuilt.
2.) Pretty much everything else.
3.) All the gauges I work with: T, Z, N, TT, HO, S, O, Standard, G,and 8 3/4"
So many scales, so many trains, so little time.....
just wanted to bump this thread back to the top for people starting out in the hobby and also would like to add one more item:
1 Wish I would have changed every coupler out to a Kadee #5 on every piece of rolling stock right from the start. It is easy to simulate pull aparts on my 30 inch radius helix with a 25 car freight and plastic couplers. Just had a 51 car freight go up and down my helix twice without any coupler issues whatsoever. Also these Kadee's work soooooooooooooooo much better then their generic counterparts in switching operations.
Hope it helps,
OH, If I dared look back at "What would you not do again if you started over knowing what you know now?" I am not so sure I would dare venture back into the hobby!!!
I think I would run far far away!
As fast as I could!
-G .
Just my thoughts, ideas, opinions and experiences. Others may vary.
HO and N Scale.
After long and careful thought, they have convinced me. I have come to the conclusion that they are right. The aliens did it.
Oh boy...where to start, let's see here...
1.) Build better benchwork with around the walls style, no access holes. Lesson learned: My new 9'x9' extension room layout will be around the walls.
2.) Build a better mountain.
3.) Larger radius curves. Currently I have 24" min., I should have gone 30".
4.) Design the yard FIRST and then design the rest of the layout around that.
5.) Must have Kadee couplers!
Michael
CEO- Mile-HI-RailroadPrototype: D&RGW Moffat Line 1989