Hello everybody,
it seems that there are a lot of new people in the forum as well as we all have different levels of experience. So I thought it might be a good idea to ask the question as to what would you do if you had to start over again or are in the process of changing on your layout. Also post the items you would not change if you were to start over again.
For me it is the following
1, Only use Kadee couplers
2, Only use steel axles/wheels
3, Purchase cars only of good detail, ie Athearn, Walthers, Intermountain, etc.
4, Purchase only good quality locomotives, ie Atlas. Kato, P2K, BLI, Athearn Genesis, etc
5, Read a lot and ask lots of questions in this great forum
6, Put screws or blocks of wood at the end of all of my sidings that lead to the great abyss
7, Not worry so much about the operational or building difficulty of a helix
8, Have more distance between levels on the layout - 12 inch is not enough
What are your experiences?
Frank
"If you need a helping hand, you'll find one at the end of your arm."
1. No duckunders. Liftouts, mebbe, but nooooo duckunders!
2. No diagonal bridge across the operating pit so that I could reverse trains. It has to be done on the benchwork.
3. If you are going to run a folded loop with the levels stacked near each other at various places, the scenery construction, and the final appearance, will be...umm...not great. What I mean is, don't place tracks closer than about 4" laterally if they are at different levels near each other. The resultant 'stepped' look leaves much to be desired, and the construction of the scenery using goop or hardshell can be frustrating and messy. Don't ask.
4. If you are making spline roadbed, go easy on the superelevation, and make sure the surface is planed meticulously smooth...no ridges left from a spline leaf not quite flush with the others. I thought I had done a good enough job. I hadn't.
5. My transitions are okay from grade to level, but just okay...not great. Make them more gradual. Keep working on them until they are more gradual.
6. Generally, unless you are a real pro, transitions into/out of grades and turnouts don't mix. Place turnouts on a consistent grade.
7. It isn't strictly bad, but I won't be mixing codes of rail and turnouts any more. I hated using the transition joiners, or fiddling with the oversized ones to get a flush meet at the railheads.
That should be enough for what I would not do again, or change.
What I would not change:
1. Use good turnouts. Make some if you can. Fast Tracks are now my staple, but Peco otherwise.
2. Code 100 rails, particularly guard rails on bridges and trestles, really stand out. They are too large when viewed by a camera at or near track level. Best to use Code 83 or smaller, and go one size smaller for the guards, whatever you decide to use as the main rails.
3. I really like the idea of a central operating pit, but not the duckunder part. So the next best thing is to have the bench running around the periphery of the room if you have such a room. That much will be certain for my next layout.
4. I will continue to use the aluminum window screen and ground goop, but I'll take my time and smooth it to make it more natural. I rushed it all last time.
-Crandell
Number one; buy good quality locos, rolling stock, and track (Atlas locos, probably Atlas, athearn, and some other good car makers, and Atlas code 55)
Number two; subscribe to both RMC and MR (right now I jsut subscribe to MR) and do it earlier than I did.
Number three; always start out with the best; you get what you pay for
Number four; get an airbrush early on (I've only had one since June)
There's the four I can think of off the top of my head.
Sawyer Berry
Clemson University c/o 2018
Building a protolanced industrial park layout
Yep...NO DUCKUNDERS!! I'd go with a double folded dog bone along the wall.
Don't fall into the trap of " ONLY THOSE WHO PREORDER WILL BE ASSURED OF GETTING THIS CAR/LOCO". The few times I have done this there was always extra's that were put on sale right after I payed full price on my "special" pre-order. Since then I have never missed out on something I wanted by waiting.
A rookie mistake.
Brent
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."
Hi,
In some aspects, I am starting over, building a replacement HO 11x15 two level layout for the one I had from 1993 to last December. During the building of that layout, and over the years, I kept a list of "what went right, what went wrong, and what could be better done". It sure was a help to get that stuff on paper, and frankly whatever mistakes I make now - will be NEW ones!
Regarding the layout, my advice is to make sure your benchwork, track, and wiring are "bullet proof" before you move on to structures and scenery. I actually followed this advice and am glad I did.
On the last layout I did get "cute", and regretted for years that I: put some turnouts in tunnels that were almost inaccessable, put in a raised (beautifully scenicked) reverse loop that took up wayyyy too much space, and the initial paint on the mountains and rockwork was too dark (I knew better), and lastly, I had wayyy too many blocks for a DC layout, which made operations a "relearn" each time I ran trains.
Regarding cars and rolling stock, I advise to get the best you can afford - but no cheap junk. Actually, for the money, the basic Athearn blue box kits and locos can't be beat. Whatever you get, put KD couplers on as soon as you can, and metal wheels when you can afford it. Also, clean your track/wheels regularly, so it is relatively easy when you do.
Most of all, ENJOY !!!
Mobilman44
ENJOY !
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
I would not have hidden staging that is out of easy reach.
I would not have a DCC set up without some kind of short protection above what is included in the system.
I would not have Peco turnouts as cars and locos dip into the frog and the guardrails are to far from the stock rail. To bad they look good.
I would not restrict my possible space based on using the rest of the garage for the car. Niether car ever gets parked in the garage anyway.
I am sure there are more I am not thinking of.
John
I would not, ever again, never, ever, ever use atrack plan based solely on if it would fit and looked good without running it in my head, thinking about it for a while and seeing if it's really what I want. I had an old double loop on a 4X8 from my youth. When I decided almost 2 yrs ago to get back into this mess, I was given permission by my perfect wife to set up the layout in a spare room in the basement. After a while she allowed me to knock out a wall and expand my empire. I quickly found two layouts in an issue of MRR on layouts you could build using 4X8 sheet of plywood. I quickly figure how to join these in the space I had and off I went. Only to find, not only would the layouts not fit on the benchwork as drawn but after they were put down and modified to work..... they still didn't well in operating trains as I wanted to run them. I'm in the middle of another remodel as we speak. Luckily I wasn't too far along to bring tears.
Mistakes made (worst):
-Did not do a Givens and Druthers
-Did not think about the track plan at all other than it looked neat at first and fit the area.
-Got in a big hurry to get something to run a train on.
-Ignored a lot of advise I'd overheard from folks on this very forum because I thought I could make it work my way.
Lesson Learned:
PAY ATTENTION and LISTEN TO EXPERIENCE!!! They've been there and done that!
Todd
Central Illinoyz
In order to keep my position as Master and Supreme Ruler of the House, I don't argue with my wife.
I'm a small town boy. A product of two people from even smaller towns. I don’t talk on topic….. I just talk.
I would not have invested in the stock market then I would have a couple of bucks to spend on a hobby, now it's a matter of scooping up bargains at the train show with my $20.00 budget. Probably spend a bit more time studying the ins and outs of logging railroads and hoping one day to open up that $15.00 box of train bargains and finding 5 or 6 brass logging locos along with 50 logging cars, that should start me off just fine. keep choochin' .
I have 80 locomotives and 200 cars with 14 feet of HO modules. I would have built a layout first before buying all those locos. I am just thankful of the club layout to run on. Another is buying locos with sound already installed. When I started collecting trains DCC and on board sound was not even a dream. Now that the upper floor of the house has opened up I can start on a layout after moving the laundry room to the first floor from the basement, New deck, re shingle, new roof, and other things.
Pete
I pray every day I break even, Cause I can really use the money!
I started with nothing and still have most of it left!
First thing that started my problems is I converted a HO scale slot car track to a HO train bench sort of by accident! Was looking on E-bay for tress and bought a cheap Life Like Train set. After that I was a train junkie.
1 I would never use 2 X 4 again as frame work! There is no such thing as a straight 2 X 4! Slot cars don't care about humps in the bench.
2 Bench is against the wall and is 4 foot wide. Fishing off a single slot car is way different than a derailed train.
3 Don't cover the bench with green out door carpet. Again it was laid for the slot car track not the trains.
4 Don't think your floor is flat! My bench is 38 inches all the way around from the floor to the top. But there is a grade of around 1.5%. It is in the garage, grade is so water will drain out. Again the slot cars could care less.
5 Just because the engine cost a lot, don't think you will not have problems with it. I have opened up more $250.00 plus engines than $55.00 engines.
Things people would think I did wrong but glad I did.
1 Buying used engines of E-bay. Now I am not talking about cheap pancake motor engines. But worn out Athearn and Protos. Lot of people told me I was wasting money and my time fixing the junk. Yes I had to fix them and spend some money, but I learned how to fix them. Because of the $10.00 engines off E-Bay I knew how to fix the New $250.00 plus engines that wore out. Better to fix a $600.00 Big Boy than wait 3 months to get it back.
2 Cheap Bachmann and Tyco rolling stock off E-Bay. Again I was told I was wasting my time. Again I learned how to make them free rollers, add Kadee Couplers and add the needed weight to make them track well.
3 18 turns, made me build better cars and fine tune the engines better. Now, I am glad I have a 18 turn left? No! At one point I was just happy to get the train around the track, but now I think they do look goofy. But yet I can pull 60 cars around the last 18 turn!
4 Bachmann E-Z DCC system, boy I got a lot of stuff about running one. But it got me started with DCC and still was a great way to get started
What I would do over?
1 Around the wall with lift out. Can have way bigger turns.
2 No wider than 3 foot unless it it is free standing.
3 6 Main lines, not just 3.
4 Don't be afraid of grades.
5 Read more about DCC and understand the terms better and understand the quarter test. Not understanding the quarter test cost me $200.00 plus in decoders.
6 Use foam over all of the bench top, easy to work and paint. Beats the heck out of carpet!
7 Don't but Athearns Big Boys, bought 2 of them and all where sent back to the LHS and then to the scrap yard.
New section.
Cuda Ken
I hate Rust
I'm starting over in Sept. on a new "L" shaped shelf type switching layout. ( My second one of this type ) and FOR SURE I am NOT going to try to cram too much trackwork/industry into too little space. I'm always tempted to try to fit "just one more turnout or industry" into the space I have and it ALWAYS ends up screwing-up my plan.
Jimmy
ROUTE ROCK!
1: Plan out your staging yard WHILE you're planning out the rest of your railroad (my major DUHHH!).
2: Plan out your feeder leads BEFORE you've installed the scenery. Those rail connectors might LOOK solid for the first six months or so, but they're going to loosen up eventually!
3: Don't get your aisle between your engine facility and that grade across the aisle so narrow that you suddenly realize that the turntable WON'T fit in. Unless, of course, you want to 'hinge' it.
4: Make sure that the loco facilities for your helper districts are at the BOTTOM of the grade. (not on my present one, but on my last one. At least I learned THAT much! )
5: Don't be afraid to adjust the scenery if that beautiful rock outcropping is so close to the curve that your articulateds are hanging up on it. It's only plaster, LOL!
Tom
Tom View my layout photos! http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/mm310/TWhite-014/Rio%20Grande%20Yuba%20River%20Sub One can NEVER have too many Articulateds!
If I were starting over I would not
1. Start in HO scale. (start in S instead)
2. Build a 4x8 table top for my first layout (use 2 sheets of plywood for 5'4" x 12' instead).
3. Build the layout before finishing the room (at least cover the insulation)
4. Move (wish I could control this)
5. Have 2 ft aisles (short passage yes, but not the whole aisle)
Things I would do again:
1. Join the NMRA and the NASG
2. Subscribe to MR and RMC
3. Use metal wheels
4. Use Kadee couplers
5 Weight cars to NMRA RP
6. Have fun
Enjoy
Paul
I wouldn't have "gone with the flow" and thought I would ever model the local Class 1 railroad, and would have started stockpiling narrow gauge equipment a long time ago.
The main thing I would NOT do [again] is rush to start a layout without having the proper infrastructure already in place.
When my wife and I decided to buy the house we're living in, I figured that the built-in two-car garage was ready to go. As for heating and AC, nada problem, I'd just run some extra ductwork thru the wall...
WRONG! I discovered our central heating/AC plant had exactly the capacity to cool the rooms of the house it was already connected to, the previous owner sized it that way to save money [he wasn't a mrr, go figure]. So I had to cough up money for a new heat pump and some insulation for the ceiling and walls. That garage was intolerable in the winter and summer, so my trackless benchwork just sat there for 4 years until my wife got another job and we finally could afford to buy the heat pump and insulation.
As for other 'never-agains', my layout has duckunders - but I was forced to use them if I wanted to be able to do continuous running. One of those 'compromise' things. If I can ever get rid of the built-in wall shelves I'll be able to build an around-the-walls layout, maybe even without duckunders.
-Ken in Maryland (B&O modeler, former CSX modeler)
"Everything"
1) Would not use spline subroadbed rather birch plywood.
2) MORE ROOM, would definetly have found some place to put all the junk accumulated in the basement to make room for trains.
3) Less is More, Better quality locomotives rather then having a large roster of Ok quality stuff.
4) would have gone to DCC right off the bat instead of starting back with what I knew and was comfortable with. "I'll never have a layout big enough to warrant DCC so why spend the money"
5) Plan plan and plan some more before starting anything.
6) Narrower bench work no scene deeper then 30" for my taste
7) Prepared the layout area much better, especially lighting.
8) Better quality of rolling stock, metal wheels and all KaDee metal couplers.
I would not have gotten married - even once!!
I would have had a lot more fun in high school & college!!!
Trust my instincts ("gut") rather than the exhortations of others. (In hindsight, "gut" was right 98%, others' exhortations 2%. Never did follow my "gut" enough.) Oh, wait a second, that's about life. Model railroading? I say have fun learning and experiencing!
Mark
lvanhen I would have had a lot more fun in high school & college!!!
Yeah! Been there! I treated them as a job and not as an experience.
markpierce lvanhen I would have had a lot more fun in high school & college!!! Yeah! Been there! I treated them as a job and not as an experience. Mark
Same here. I have had more fun in college than high school. I will be glad when I get out though.
Lets see, my list would include.
1. Not spending so much effiort on the Life-Like (train set quality) products when I was a kid. They were cheap and easily available. To this day I have turn down those products at train shows.
2. I wish I had used the space in my parents garage for a small layout when I got the chance. Oh well, maybe one day I'll hit the lottery jackpot and find a huge place to house a decent sized layout (maybe 100' by 50'), but a man can dream, right?
3. Not do so much impulse buying. Just because it is at Hobby Lobby on sale does not mean I have to have it.
4. Don't rush when building a structure. I don't get to detail them like I want when I do that.
Will
da_kraut what would you do if you had to start over again
2. Get books on chosen RR, and join the appropriate historical society.
3. I would tell a new person to operate on many model railroads before deciding what I really like to do with the toy trains. I've done that so I would not have to start over.
4. Based on #1 and #3 above using the research in #2 above choose an time period (much more specific than an era) of about 5 to 10 years most to model.
4. Design a layout to match the prototype I choose in #1 with the operational characteristics I choose in #3, appropriate for the time in #4.
5. Take more pictures of the layout and evaluate what I see critically before I decide it is "good enough".
6. Hand lay more track and scratch build more stuff while I am young enough to do it.
7. Don't get so excited about projects that parts are purchased and/or more get started than are possible to finish. Buy more books instead.
------What I would do the same---------
1. Stick with Kadee couplers2. Stick with good enough cars (Athearn blue box are fine with a bit of tuning). I am operationally oriented. With heavy operation by all sorts of people, detail gets broken off of or bent on the high end cars. Keep the good stuff for exhibition runs and photo ops. 3. Stick with command control - control the locomotives not the track.4. Keep plywood sub-roadbed and cork roadbed. Tried all sorts of other things and keep going back.5. Wait for what I want to be on sale. Ignore the "limited edition" sales hype. They always come back on eBay, swap meets, etc. Usually for a lower price. If not - well there will always be something better later.
We built this long hidden track at the club but it made the train dissappear for a period of time, I never liked that.
My goal is minimalized hidden track, and try to No-Lix, no Helix, the track might spaghetti bowl a bit but thats going to be by design.
Hi from Belgium,
1. A shop where I can find good items to build my railroad; that didn't exist in Europe just a few and they are far from my house.
2. Second the dead of the European style spaghetti railroad enhanced by Marklin.
3.The birth of a good coupler looking more realistic and with the coupling/uncoupling feature like the MT and Kadee's ones, for the European models in all the scale.
4.Hope to see a European layout build for operation and not just for running the trains. ( again the spaghetti virus).
5. Hope to see Peco making a new line of code 55 in Nscale with an American style like their new line of code 83.
6. Hope to finish my Maclau River RR and put a day the golden spike.
7.Hope to see more good articles about layout construction from A to Z like the old series about the Jerôme and Southwestern on the San Juan RR; we have learned so much just with these two series and the methods of building them are so easy to use.
8.Hope for everybody here, that they can reach their trains dreams.
Marc
I would have:
-Designed my layout completely on a software program which allowed me to actually operate trains on it like Auran Trainz.
- Gone with DCC right from the start.
- Hand lay all visible trackage! I know, I know, hand laid track isn't as "realistic"as it doesn't have tie plates, the spikes are over sized etc... But there is just something about the look of hand laid track that is really appealing to me.
- Planned the location for bridges better.
- Run all under layout wiring BEFORE starting on scenery!
- Install ground throws at the same time I install the switch.
- George
"And the sons of Pullman porters and the sons of engineers ride their father's magic carpet made of steel..."
Some great points to remember already posted!
What I wouldn't do:
1) Let the (future) wife talk me into throwing out all my MR mags (plus a couple of track planning books) from Jan. 1979 to Dec. 1992 because I "probably wouldn't need them again". I should've known better.
2) Get so far into debt that it will take many years to get out.
Things I would still do:
1) Listen to the advice from the older and more experienced modelers. There are very good reasons that they all tell you the same things over and over!
2) Try a small L shaped switching layout for practice. I didn't have it up long, but it refined some vague ideas and prompted me to force myself to do a lot more research and planning before taking on a larger project. The separate sections of the L will later become two staging yards.
3) Use cheap train set cars for 'filler' before I can afford to buy nice rolling stock. Getting them up to NMRA standards is good practice: IE:getting the wheelsets and trucks to be free rolling and not wobbly, and installing Kadee (or equivalent) couplers and setting the height, and weighting the cars following standard practices. I use cars that are the right length for my chosen era (40 ft) even though they're the wrong era or type of cars, and these were all left overs from my train set years, so the cars were free. They now run well and will do until I can build up a roster of quality appropriate era rolling stock.
4) Start by buying DCC ready locos. I plan to have DCC later, but can run in DC now. I'd rather not have to modify and wire DC only locos. That time can be spent doing something I actually enjoy: building kits, scenery, etc...
Wow. After reading through most of your responses, I'm happy to say that if I had to start over, I'd pretty much do what I've done up to this point! To wit:
I took about 3 years to plan my layout before I ever cut the first piece of foam.
I took about 5 years to completely gut and renovate the room where my layout now lives, so it's well lit, comfortable, and has modern wiring with enough juice to run the layout, an A/C unit, and the beer fridge...
I started the main section of the layout out in the garage where I could make a mess and use smelly adhesives without disrupting the family. It also afforded me the opportunity to lay the bench up on its side so I could do the wiring and aligning switch machines while standing up!
I studied other track plans and asked 9 million questions about operations, and started designing for ops first, then figured out where to put in a cut off or two to provide for lazy circle running (critical for the mental health).
I studied the heck out of my chosen prototype, so I knew what kind of operations to design for, and what kind of rolling stock and locomotive fleet I needed, what kind of industries the layout would serve, and what the scenery would look like.
I realized the importance of compromise and setting priorities. My goals included moving coal trains from the mountains to the sea, not modeling the brake gear on every single hopper car. Running the trains through realistic scenes was more important than modeling a particular stretch of track inch for inch. And giving the trains logical places to come from and go to was more important than just running trains.
I designed the layout 100% with DCC operation in mind. Soon I'll be needing to add a second power district, but I'm proud to say that other than a temporary reversing circuit, there isn't a single toggle switch on the layout!
Finally, I spent a great deal of time (maybe way too much) on-line chatting, questioning, challenging, and learning. Without this amazing tool for innovation and conversation I would still be in the stone age.
The one thing I would have done differently, is I would have spent more time documenting various projects with notes and photos. I've just had my first article published, and I'm pretty sure I have a few more in me...
Lee
Route of the Alpha Jets www.wmrywesternlines.net
Frank,Here's my thoughts.
When I resume work on my N Scale layout come fall.I removed the Atlas track in May in favor of Kato's Unitrack.
1.I will continue to use Kato Unitrack since this is smooth bulletproof track work-a must for N Scale.
2.I will use nothing smaller then a #6 switch.I decided to give up some space for #6 switches since they give better reverse move operation with long cuts of cars then smaller switches.
3.Avoid switchbacks at industries that requires a car to be moved at one industry before switching another.
4.This time each industry will have its own track instead of two industries to a industrial siding.This will cut down on the number of industries but,it will be more prototypical.
5.I will continue to use Atlas locomotives and the better quality cars such as Atlas,Athearn,Red Caboose,IM Exact Rail,FVM and MT.
6.Keep everything simple by using the KISS method.
7.Use a form of "minimalist" modeling..
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Probably would have started collecting butterflies or stamps and been retired by now
If you are talking about my current layout, very little. I had this layout in my mind for over 10 years while still in my old house and still working on my old layout. When I started the current layout, I had a clear concept in mind regarding what I wanted and a well thought out track plan. With few modifications which I made during construction, it is pretty much the layout I had in my head for the 10 years I conceptualized it and what I put to paper. The two main things I would do differently are these:
1. I would not use foam as a scenery base. I'm not talking about creating scenic forms from foam. I am talking about using it in place of plywood in one of my principle towns. Yes it's lightweight but once it's in place on a permanent layout, what is the benefit of that. It's a real problem when it comes to anchoring things like switch machines to the layout.
2. I would have eliminated the bad "S" curve I created at one entrance to my main yard. The ladder begins immediately after the crossover into the yard from the mainline. This has been a source of many derailments and I intend to move the crossover farther up the line from the ladder. It will mean ripping out a good amount of ballast and other scenery but should smooth out operations.
Now if you want to talk about all the mistakes I made on previous layouts, that is a long list. First of all, it is important to start with a clear concept of what your railroad is going to be about. It will save you a lot of money in the long run since you will be less apt to buy things that don't really belong. My first two layouts were both freelanced UP. I bought all things UP without regard to era, locale, or quality. The other big mistake I made is I designed the layouts to create what I thought at the time were interesting scenic features without regard to how the railroad would operate. It is a much better approach to have an operating concept in mind, even if it is just running trains, and fit the scenery to the track plan rather than vice versa.