Folks:
I was up on the roof yesterday evening, nailing down shingles, and thinking about things, including this topic.
It seems to me that the postwar years saw a lot of newbie model railroaders, who were also busy starting families and generally getting things going (after the war). The small tabletop model railroads with small steam or diesel locos and sharp curves were parts of a system that worked well for people in that situation. It's a system that, on the whole, demands little time, effort, and attention. The small equipment functioned well on the small layouts.
This system still works well for people in similar getting-things-going circumstances. I can attest to that. However, a lot of MRRers are older now or retired, and today's favorite style needs a lot of track and cars, and a fleet of big locos - the medium to large-sized, staging yard-dependent mainline layout. It's not the only style around, but it does seem to be in favor. This needs a lot of time, effort, and attention. Perhaps this causes more people to put off construction longer, and collect more equipment in the meantime.
Another unrelated thought: a lot of us are modeling the transition era so we can get steam and electrics and dismal-electrics together. By that time, however, a lot of the steam in use was the large mainline steam, sadly sinking into disrepair and ever-more-secondary roles. The small, older locos were the first to go, except for some cases (like the Wabash 2-6-0s) where they had a niche to fill.
Just a few thoughts...shingling tends to generate those.
Hi from Belgium,
I am modeling in Nscale american models and we have the same problems with this scale, big steam, articulated or big rigid base like big mikados or mountains. My layout is in the steam erea.
I have heard often from manufacturer that because of the tiny scale it's easier to make a big engine.
I COULD'NT AGREE IN ANY WAY in Nscale or in HO scale for US steam models; because the manufacturer in Europe are obliged to make tiny engines in both scales, because here in Europe we have had many tiny steam engines like 0-4-0 or 0-6-0 and a lot of this arrangemt with very small tender.
So if Fleischmann or Roco or Marklin for HO or Hornby, Roco, Kato for N scale can do very small European steam engines with remarkable running qualities, I could'nt beleive that the American manufacturer couldn't do it too for small americans ones.
I am often on a lot of forum and when asked, a lot of modelers in all the scale whish to see small steam engines on the market .
I hope to see small engines in all scale like 0-6-0 or 0-4-0 switchers, and why not a good docksider.
Both in Nscale and HO scale the Walthers Proto heritage 0-8-0 switcher was a hit.............
Marc
Marc_Magnus Hi from Belgium, I COULD'NT AGREE IN ANY WAY in Nscale or in HO scale for US steam models; because the manufacturer in Europe are obliged to make tiny engines in both scales, because here in Europe we have had many tiny steam engines like 0-4-0 or 0-6-0 and a lot of this arrangemt with very small tender. So if Fleischmann or Roco or Marklin for HO or Hornby, Roco, Kato for N scale can do very small European steam engines with remarkable running qualities, I could'nt beleive that the American manufacturer couldn't do it too for small americans ones.
Hi Marc in Belgium,
I stopped by a train shop in Brussels last month a few blocks away from the location pictured below, and don't recall seeing a steam locomotive larger than a 2-10-0 in the American Whyte classification system, but then my impression is that there were few large steam locomotive prototypes in Europe compared to the U.S.
Marc, I think you were bringing several issues to your comment and its underlying opinion. It is one thing to make a small engine, another to be able to sell it, and another to make a good quality small engine that will also sell. Are the typical Fleischmann N scale engines selling for the same price as the typical Bachmann or whatever N. American model N scale engines of the same caliber and complexity? My understanding has been that Euro engines are much more expensive, and I would guess that at least part of that extra cost goes into development and engineering and construction, including materials, that many N. Americans won't pay for.
So, I agree with the person you were talking about...you can make a small engine, but to make one easily that will also sell....well...now yer talkin' some problems in the market that MR represents mostly.
-Crandell
selector It is one thing to make a small engine, another to be able to sell it, and another to make a good quality small engine that will also sell.
It is one thing to make a small engine, another to be able to sell it, and another to make a good quality small engine that will also sell.
If they don't make 'em, they can't sell 'em.
Mark
Crandell,
You are absolutely right about the cost of European equipment. If the same prices was given on an American counterpart these forums would be in flames from the massive influx of complaints.To buy a Swedish engine similar to lets say a Bachmann 4-6-0 you would expect to pay roughly 500$. A typical diesel will run you 400$.
I would have a hard time seeing a US manufacturer releasing simple diesels and steam engines at those prices and be welcomed by the industry.
Magnus
Absolutely, Mark. You could also substitute, "If there is no market..." in place of "If they don't make 'em..." and "...they won't make them," for "they cant sell 'em," and still be accurately characterizing the very same situation.
Autobus Prime Another unrelated thought: a lot of us are modeling the transition era so we can get steam and electrics and dismal-electrics together. By that time, however, a lot of the steam in use was the large mainline steam, sadly sinking into disrepair and ever-more-secondary roles. The small, older locos were the first to go, except for some cases (like the Wabash 2-6-0s) where they had a niche to fill.
One good thing about modeling the Southern Pacific is that it had plenty of small and medium-sized steam locomotives, like 0-6-0s, 2-6-0s, 2-8-0s, and 4-6-2s, during the transition period up until the mid-1950s and especially in California, as well as biggies like 2-10-2s. 4-8-2s, 4-8-4s, and 4-8-8-2s.
markpierce Autobus Prime Another unrelated thought: a lot of us are modeling the transition era so we can get steam and electrics and dismal-electrics together. By that time, however, a lot of the steam in use was the large mainline steam, sadly sinking into disrepair and ever-more-secondary roles. The small, older locos were the first to go, except for some cases (like the Wabash 2-6-0s) where they had a niche to fill. One good thing about modeling the Southern Pacific is that it had plenty of small and medium-sized steam locomotives, like 0-6-0s, 2-6-0s, 2-8-0s, and 4-6-2s, during the transition period up until the mid-1950s and especially in California, as well as biggies like 2-10-2s. 4-8-2s, 4-8-4s, and 4-8-8-2s. Mark
MP:
Very true, and it's no coincidence that so much of our smaller steam is from SP prototypes, or based on those designs: the former Varney and MDC 4-6-0, several other MDC locos, and the Pemco/IHC Mogul, for instance. Fortunately, the SP had very elegant and classic steam, and it can pass for a lot of other railroads' designs without a whole lot of squinting.
Hi!
Sooner or later I knew I'd have to put my $0.10 in to this post............................
I model the ATSF - with a minor in the IC - both in the '40s/'50s. I've got the BLI Paragon 4-8-4, 2-10-2, and 2-10-4, and the Spectrum 2-8-0 & 2-10-0 for the ATSF, and the Spectrum 4-8-2 for the IC. That's great, and I'm thankful they have been produced.
However, I sure would like to get my hands on an ATSF 0-8-0, 4-6-4, 4-6-2, 2-8-2 and and an IC 0-8-0 and 4-6-2 - especially with DCC and sound. Given the popularity of the Santa Fe, it is a mystery to me as to why BLI, Athearn, P2K, or Spectrum do not offer some of these with Santa Fe characteristics (and NOT just markings like the BLI Mike produced a couple years ago).
Anyway, for what its worth........
Mobilman44
ENJOY !
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
Nice to see you at the "Grand Place of Brussels"; hope you have enjoy your holydays at Brussels and in Belgium.
Well I have seen some little Fleischmann engines in Nscale, a T3 a little engine without tender with dcc for 100euros or something like 130$ its had a lenght of 6.5 cm or 2.5inch.
Compared to a small american model like the whalters Proto 0-8-0 switcher it's the same price but without dcc. Same price for a small V1000 diesel Atlas but with dcc.
Today with the offer of the market all the good running engines are in this category of prices.
A Proto mallet in Nscale are with dcc in the 250$ range.
All the big HO steamers offer in the last months are in the 270 to 400$ with dcc.range
So If you want a small locomotives with good running capacities and dcc you need to pay something around 140$
This price is just in the range of the good running locos offer today with dcc.
So and I am modest, I still beleive that the possibility to make a small engine is possible with good running qualities.
Just ask the people about the model they want, but a small steamer which could be a small switcher and a local road engine could be a winner for sell; I am sure about it.
Ps Did you remenber the name of the train shop in Brussels?
Marc_Magnus Did you remenber the name of the train shop in Brussels?
Did you remenber the name of the train shop in Brussels?
No, but it was on a north-south street, on the east side of the street, that was a few blocks west of the central plaza (Place'?) from the former city hall, now museum, in the picture.
Well then you will love the next release from BLI !!! How about a PRR Q-2 !!!! ----- Ken McCorry
KemacPrr Well then you will love the next release from BLI !!! How about a PRR Q-2 !!!! ----- Ken McCorry
Holy Sufferin' Horseshoe Curve!!! Is that the one that if you forget it's a Duplex, turns out to be a 4-10-4?
Oh, Lordy, Lordy!
Tom
Tom View my layout photos! http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/mm310/TWhite-014/Rio%20Grande%20Yuba%20River%20Sub One can NEVER have too many Articulateds!
twhite KemacPrr Well then you will love the next release from BLI !!! How about a PRR Q-2 !!!! ----- Ken McCorry Holy Sufferin' Horseshoe Curve!!! Is that the one that if you forget it's a Duplex, turns out to be a 4-10-4? Oh, Lordy, Lordy! Tom
I can see it now----more Grumble Grouch---Crab Crab Gripe Snarl
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
blownout cylinder twhite KemacPrr Well then you will love the next release from BLI !!! How about a PRR Q-2 !!!! ----- Ken McCorry Holy Sufferin' Horseshoe Curve!!! Is that the one that if you forget it's a Duplex, turns out to be a 4-10-4? Oh, Lordy, Lordy! Tom I can see it now----more Grumble Grouch---Crab Crab Gripe Snarl
Barry:
I'll come up with something better, and I've already got it. A 2-8-8-4-4-10-0-2-8-8-4-4-10-0. Of course, it's just two of my Yellowstones with pedestal tenders double-headed, but that wheel arrangement sure LOOKS impressive, doesn't it, LOL?
Unfortunately the 4-10-0 part of it doesn't have any drivers. BUT--on my MR, those 4-10-0's pick up power from one side, so it sure gives the 2-8-8-4 portion of the loco-tender combination a nice, broad contact with the rails, by golly!
twhite blownout cylinder twhite KemacPrr Well then you will love the next release from BLI !!! How about a PRR Q-2 !!!! ----- Ken McCorry Holy Sufferin' Horseshoe Curve!!! Is that the one that if you forget it's a Duplex, turns out to be a 4-10-4? Oh, Lordy, Lordy! Tom I can see it now----more Grumble Grouch---Crab Crab Gripe Snarl Barry: I'll come up with something better, and I've already got it. A 2-8-8-4-4-10-0-2-8-8-4-4-10-0. Of course, it's just two of my Yellowstones with pedestal tenders double-headed, but that wheel arrangement sure LOOKS impressive, doesn't it, LOL? Unfortunately the 4-10-0 part of it doesn't have any drivers. BUT--on my MR, those 4-10-0's pick up power from one side, so it sure gives the 2-8-8-4 portion of the loco-tender combination a nice, broad contact with the rails, by golly! Tom
OK--The next question would be where would you park the poor thing? I mean, the wheelsets alone would just about stick out anywhere you'd put it in your yards!----poor critter would be homeless---if'n you don't take a chunk o' real estate out---or build more up! LOL!!
And don't ask if ol' Shakey Pete up here in Williston would have space in his train museum---he just looked at the plans and went-----YYYEEEEEEKKSS!!!!!
blownout cylinder twhite blownout cylinder twhite KemacPrr Well then you will love the next release from BLI !!! How about a PRR Q-2 !!!! ----- Ken McCorry Holy Sufferin' Horseshoe Curve!!! Is that the one that if you forget it's a Duplex, turns out to be a 4-10-4? Oh, Lordy, Lordy! Tom I can see it now----more Grumble Grouch---Crab Crab Gripe Snarl Barry: I'll come up with something better, and I've already got it. A 2-8-8-4-4-10-0-2-8-8-4-4-10-0. Of course, it's just two of my Yellowstones with pedestal tenders double-headed, but that wheel arrangement sure LOOKS impressive, doesn't it, LOL? Unfortunately the 4-10-0 part of it doesn't have any drivers. BUT--on my MR, those 4-10-0's pick up power from one side, so it sure gives the 2-8-8-4 portion of the loco-tender combination a nice, broad contact with the rails, by golly! Tom OK--The next question would be where would you park the poor thing? I mean, the wheelsets alone would just about stick out anywhere you'd put it in your yards!----poor critter would be homeless---if'n you don't take a chunk o' real estate out---or build more up! LOL!! And don't ask if ol' Shakey Pete up here in Williston would have space in his train museum---he just looked at the plans and went-----YYYEEEEEEKKSS!!!!!
PARK it???? I'm still wondering how in the bloody Heck I could TURN it, LOL!
twhite Barry: PARK it???? I'm still wondering how in the bloody Heck I could TURN it, LOL! Tom
I'm sure that if'n MTH could do that overhanging boiler articulation then we could see summat like caterpillar articulation------boy there is going to be a lot of
This thread is getting a bit old now, but since I posted it Bachmann has released their Baldwin HO 4-4-0's and Athearn/Roundhouse is re-releasing their HO 2-6-0's,
Who says size does not matter? I love the large articulated locomotives of the N&W! But, they are expensive and even worse, they require a larger radius, which means more area used, in order to look "correct". I started out with 2-8-0's (the N&W W2's) but it was hard finding these locomotives. NWSL had some brass locomotives for about $200. That was about 20 years ago. I ended up with 2 of them. Hard to find anything else that ran well and looked good. So, I got into the Atlas RS3's when they first came out and some F7's. BUT, I love steam!!. Broadway Limited seems h-ll bent on building large locomotives. So, I have some N&W class A and J's, what are you going to do??
Craig North Carolina