Who says size does not matter? I love the large articulated locomotives of the N&W! But, they are expensive and even worse, they require a larger radius, which means more area used, in order to look "correct". I started out with 2-8-0's (the N&W W2's) but it was hard finding these locomotives. NWSL had some brass locomotives for about $200. That was about 20 years ago. I ended up with 2 of them. Hard to find anything else that ran well and looked good. So, I got into the Atlas RS3's when they first came out and some F7's. BUT, I love steam!!. Broadway Limited seems h-ll bent on building large locomotives. So, I have some N&W class A and J's, what are you going to do??
Craig North Carolina
This thread is getting a bit old now, but since I posted it Bachmann has released their Baldwin HO 4-4-0's and Athearn/Roundhouse is re-releasing their HO 2-6-0's,
twhite Barry: PARK it???? I'm still wondering how in the bloody Heck I could TURN it, LOL! Tom
Barry:
PARK it???? I'm still wondering how in the bloody Heck I could TURN it, LOL!
Tom
I'm sure that if'n MTH could do that overhanging boiler articulation then we could see summat like caterpillar articulation------boy there is going to be a lot of
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
blownout cylinder twhite blownout cylinder twhite KemacPrr Well then you will love the next release from BLI !!! How about a PRR Q-2 !!!! ----- Ken McCorry Holy Sufferin' Horseshoe Curve!!! Is that the one that if you forget it's a Duplex, turns out to be a 4-10-4? Oh, Lordy, Lordy! Tom I can see it now----more Grumble Grouch---Crab Crab Gripe Snarl Barry: I'll come up with something better, and I've already got it. A 2-8-8-4-4-10-0-2-8-8-4-4-10-0. Of course, it's just two of my Yellowstones with pedestal tenders double-headed, but that wheel arrangement sure LOOKS impressive, doesn't it, LOL? Unfortunately the 4-10-0 part of it doesn't have any drivers. BUT--on my MR, those 4-10-0's pick up power from one side, so it sure gives the 2-8-8-4 portion of the loco-tender combination a nice, broad contact with the rails, by golly! Tom OK--The next question would be where would you park the poor thing? I mean, the wheelsets alone would just about stick out anywhere you'd put it in your yards!----poor critter would be homeless---if'n you don't take a chunk o' real estate out---or build more up! LOL!! And don't ask if ol' Shakey Pete up here in Williston would have space in his train museum---he just looked at the plans and went-----YYYEEEEEEKKSS!!!!!
twhite blownout cylinder twhite KemacPrr Well then you will love the next release from BLI !!! How about a PRR Q-2 !!!! ----- Ken McCorry Holy Sufferin' Horseshoe Curve!!! Is that the one that if you forget it's a Duplex, turns out to be a 4-10-4? Oh, Lordy, Lordy! Tom I can see it now----more Grumble Grouch---Crab Crab Gripe Snarl Barry: I'll come up with something better, and I've already got it. A 2-8-8-4-4-10-0-2-8-8-4-4-10-0. Of course, it's just two of my Yellowstones with pedestal tenders double-headed, but that wheel arrangement sure LOOKS impressive, doesn't it, LOL? Unfortunately the 4-10-0 part of it doesn't have any drivers. BUT--on my MR, those 4-10-0's pick up power from one side, so it sure gives the 2-8-8-4 portion of the loco-tender combination a nice, broad contact with the rails, by golly! Tom
blownout cylinder twhite KemacPrr Well then you will love the next release from BLI !!! How about a PRR Q-2 !!!! ----- Ken McCorry Holy Sufferin' Horseshoe Curve!!! Is that the one that if you forget it's a Duplex, turns out to be a 4-10-4? Oh, Lordy, Lordy! Tom I can see it now----more Grumble Grouch---Crab Crab Gripe Snarl
twhite KemacPrr Well then you will love the next release from BLI !!! How about a PRR Q-2 !!!! ----- Ken McCorry Holy Sufferin' Horseshoe Curve!!! Is that the one that if you forget it's a Duplex, turns out to be a 4-10-4? Oh, Lordy, Lordy! Tom
KemacPrr Well then you will love the next release from BLI !!! How about a PRR Q-2 !!!! ----- Ken McCorry
Well then you will love the next release from BLI !!! How about a PRR Q-2 !!!! ----- Ken McCorry
Holy Sufferin' Horseshoe Curve!!! Is that the one that if you forget it's a Duplex, turns out to be a 4-10-4?
Oh, Lordy, Lordy!
I can see it now----more Grumble Grouch---Crab Crab Gripe Snarl
I'll come up with something better, and I've already got it. A 2-8-8-4-4-10-0-2-8-8-4-4-10-0. Of course, it's just two of my Yellowstones with pedestal tenders double-headed, but that wheel arrangement sure LOOKS impressive, doesn't it, LOL?
Unfortunately the 4-10-0 part of it doesn't have any drivers. BUT--on my MR, those 4-10-0's pick up power from one side, so it sure gives the 2-8-8-4 portion of the loco-tender combination a nice, broad contact with the rails, by golly!
OK--The next question would be where would you park the poor thing? I mean, the wheelsets alone would just about stick out anywhere you'd put it in your yards!----poor critter would be homeless---if'n you don't take a chunk o' real estate out---or build more up! LOL!!
And don't ask if ol' Shakey Pete up here in Williston would have space in his train museum---he just looked at the plans and went-----YYYEEEEEEKKSS!!!!!
Tom View my layout photos! http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/mm310/TWhite-014/Rio%20Grande%20Yuba%20River%20Sub One can NEVER have too many Articulateds!
Marc_Magnus Did you remenber the name of the train shop in Brussels?
Did you remenber the name of the train shop in Brussels?
No, but it was on a north-south street, on the east side of the street, that was a few blocks west of the central plaza (Place'?) from the former city hall, now museum, in the picture.
Mark
Hi from Belgium,
Nice to see you at the "Grand Place of Brussels"; hope you have enjoy your holydays at Brussels and in Belgium.
Well I have seen some little Fleischmann engines in Nscale, a T3 a little engine without tender with dcc for 100euros or something like 130$ its had a lenght of 6.5 cm or 2.5inch.
Compared to a small american model like the whalters Proto 0-8-0 switcher it's the same price but without dcc. Same price for a small V1000 diesel Atlas but with dcc.
Today with the offer of the market all the good running engines are in this category of prices.
A Proto mallet in Nscale are with dcc in the 250$ range.
All the big HO steamers offer in the last months are in the 270 to 400$ with dcc.range
So If you want a small locomotives with good running capacities and dcc you need to pay something around 140$
This price is just in the range of the good running locos offer today with dcc.
So and I am modest, I still beleive that the possibility to make a small engine is possible with good running qualities.
Just ask the people about the model they want, but a small steamer which could be a small switcher and a local road engine could be a winner for sell; I am sure about it.
Marc
Ps Did you remenber the name of the train shop in Brussels?
Hi!
Sooner or later I knew I'd have to put my $0.10 in to this post............................
I model the ATSF - with a minor in the IC - both in the '40s/'50s. I've got the BLI Paragon 4-8-4, 2-10-2, and 2-10-4, and the Spectrum 2-8-0 & 2-10-0 for the ATSF, and the Spectrum 4-8-2 for the IC. That's great, and I'm thankful they have been produced.
However, I sure would like to get my hands on an ATSF 0-8-0, 4-6-4, 4-6-2, 2-8-2 and and an IC 0-8-0 and 4-6-2 - especially with DCC and sound. Given the popularity of the Santa Fe, it is a mystery to me as to why BLI, Athearn, P2K, or Spectrum do not offer some of these with Santa Fe characteristics (and NOT just markings like the BLI Mike produced a couple years ago).
Anyway, for what its worth........
Mobilman44
ENJOY !
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
markpierce Autobus Prime Another unrelated thought: a lot of us are modeling the transition era so we can get steam and electrics and dismal-electrics together. By that time, however, a lot of the steam in use was the large mainline steam, sadly sinking into disrepair and ever-more-secondary roles. The small, older locos were the first to go, except for some cases (like the Wabash 2-6-0s) where they had a niche to fill. One good thing about modeling the Southern Pacific is that it had plenty of small and medium-sized steam locomotives, like 0-6-0s, 2-6-0s, 2-8-0s, and 4-6-2s, during the transition period up until the mid-1950s and especially in California, as well as biggies like 2-10-2s. 4-8-2s, 4-8-4s, and 4-8-8-2s. Mark
Autobus Prime Another unrelated thought: a lot of us are modeling the transition era so we can get steam and electrics and dismal-electrics together. By that time, however, a lot of the steam in use was the large mainline steam, sadly sinking into disrepair and ever-more-secondary roles. The small, older locos were the first to go, except for some cases (like the Wabash 2-6-0s) where they had a niche to fill.
Another unrelated thought: a lot of us are modeling the transition era so we can get steam and electrics and dismal-electrics together. By that time, however, a lot of the steam in use was the large mainline steam, sadly sinking into disrepair and ever-more-secondary roles. The small, older locos were the first to go, except for some cases (like the Wabash 2-6-0s) where they had a niche to fill.
One good thing about modeling the Southern Pacific is that it had plenty of small and medium-sized steam locomotives, like 0-6-0s, 2-6-0s, 2-8-0s, and 4-6-2s, during the transition period up until the mid-1950s and especially in California, as well as biggies like 2-10-2s. 4-8-2s, 4-8-4s, and 4-8-8-2s.
MP:
Very true, and it's no coincidence that so much of our smaller steam is from SP prototypes, or based on those designs: the former Varney and MDC 4-6-0, several other MDC locos, and the Pemco/IHC Mogul, for instance. Fortunately, the SP had very elegant and classic steam, and it can pass for a lot of other railroads' designs without a whole lot of squinting.
Absolutely, Mark. You could also substitute, "If there is no market..." in place of "If they don't make 'em..." and "...they won't make them," for "they cant sell 'em," and still be accurately characterizing the very same situation.
-Crandell
Crandell,
You are absolutely right about the cost of European equipment. If the same prices was given on an American counterpart these forums would be in flames from the massive influx of complaints.To buy a Swedish engine similar to lets say a Bachmann 4-6-0 you would expect to pay roughly 500$. A typical diesel will run you 400$.
I would have a hard time seeing a US manufacturer releasing simple diesels and steam engines at those prices and be welcomed by the industry.
Magnus
selector It is one thing to make a small engine, another to be able to sell it, and another to make a good quality small engine that will also sell.
It is one thing to make a small engine, another to be able to sell it, and another to make a good quality small engine that will also sell.
If they don't make 'em, they can't sell 'em.
Marc, I think you were bringing several issues to your comment and its underlying opinion. It is one thing to make a small engine, another to be able to sell it, and another to make a good quality small engine that will also sell. Are the typical Fleischmann N scale engines selling for the same price as the typical Bachmann or whatever N. American model N scale engines of the same caliber and complexity? My understanding has been that Euro engines are much more expensive, and I would guess that at least part of that extra cost goes into development and engineering and construction, including materials, that many N. Americans won't pay for.
So, I agree with the person you were talking about...you can make a small engine, but to make one easily that will also sell....well...now yer talkin' some problems in the market that MR represents mostly.
Marc_Magnus Hi from Belgium, I COULD'NT AGREE IN ANY WAY in Nscale or in HO scale for US steam models; because the manufacturer in Europe are obliged to make tiny engines in both scales, because here in Europe we have had many tiny steam engines like 0-4-0 or 0-6-0 and a lot of this arrangemt with very small tender. So if Fleischmann or Roco or Marklin for HO or Hornby, Roco, Kato for N scale can do very small European steam engines with remarkable running qualities, I could'nt beleive that the American manufacturer couldn't do it too for small americans ones.
I COULD'NT AGREE IN ANY WAY in Nscale or in HO scale for US steam models; because the manufacturer in Europe are obliged to make tiny engines in both scales, because here in Europe we have had many tiny steam engines like 0-4-0 or 0-6-0 and a lot of this arrangemt with very small tender.
So if Fleischmann or Roco or Marklin for HO or Hornby, Roco, Kato for N scale can do very small European steam engines with remarkable running qualities, I could'nt beleive that the American manufacturer couldn't do it too for small americans ones.
Hi Marc in Belgium,
I stopped by a train shop in Brussels last month a few blocks away from the location pictured below, and don't recall seeing a steam locomotive larger than a 2-10-0 in the American Whyte classification system, but then my impression is that there were few large steam locomotive prototypes in Europe compared to the U.S.
I am modeling in Nscale american models and we have the same problems with this scale, big steam, articulated or big rigid base like big mikados or mountains. My layout is in the steam erea.
I have heard often from manufacturer that because of the tiny scale it's easier to make a big engine.
I am often on a lot of forum and when asked, a lot of modelers in all the scale whish to see small steam engines on the market .
I hope to see small engines in all scale like 0-6-0 or 0-4-0 switchers, and why not a good docksider.
Both in Nscale and HO scale the Walthers Proto heritage 0-8-0 switcher was a hit.............
Folks:
I was up on the roof yesterday evening, nailing down shingles, and thinking about things, including this topic.
It seems to me that the postwar years saw a lot of newbie model railroaders, who were also busy starting families and generally getting things going (after the war). The small tabletop model railroads with small steam or diesel locos and sharp curves were parts of a system that worked well for people in that situation. It's a system that, on the whole, demands little time, effort, and attention. The small equipment functioned well on the small layouts.
This system still works well for people in similar getting-things-going circumstances. I can attest to that. However, a lot of MRRers are older now or retired, and today's favorite style needs a lot of track and cars, and a fleet of big locos - the medium to large-sized, staging yard-dependent mainline layout. It's not the only style around, but it does seem to be in favor. This needs a lot of time, effort, and attention. Perhaps this causes more people to put off construction longer, and collect more equipment in the meantime.
Just a few thoughts...shingling tends to generate those.
twhite One day in downtown Sacramento, we went into a hardware store to get some picture hangers. The hardware store also had a fairly good-sized section devoted to model railroading. In a glass case was a PFM 1950 Santa Fe 2-8-0. I stared mesmerized at my first brass locomotive. My roommate, having bought his picture hangers, came up and admired it with me ( he was not a model railroader but he thought it was neat when I set up a temporary track and ran what trains I had at the time). He said, "Wow, that's cool." I stared at that little bitty piece of artwork. Mike, my roommate blinked at the price. "Wow, that's almost FORTY DOLLARS!" I just stared at it. I looked over at him. "I think I can afford it." He blinked. "How will you pay the RENT?" I just stared at him. Now mind you, this was my best friend in the whole world, but he Squeaked when he Walked. I took it home. We put it on the kitchen table and just stared at it for the rest of the evening.
One day in downtown Sacramento, we went into a hardware store to get some picture hangers. The hardware store also had a fairly good-sized section devoted to model railroading. In a glass case was a PFM 1950 Santa Fe 2-8-0. I stared mesmerized at my first brass locomotive. My roommate, having bought his picture hangers, came up and admired it with me ( he was not a model railroader but he thought it was neat when I set up a temporary track and ran what trains I had at the time). He said, "Wow, that's cool." I stared at that little bitty piece of artwork. Mike, my roommate blinked at the price. "Wow, that's almost FORTY DOLLARS!" I just stared at it. I looked over at him. "I think I can afford it." He blinked. "How will you pay the RENT?" I just stared at him. Now mind you, this was my best friend in the whole world, but he Squeaked when he Walked.
I took it home. We put it on the kitchen table and just stared at it for the rest of the evening.
Tom, I purchased two of the PFM 1950s class locomotivesover a period of several years in the 1960s. One was pre-RP-25 wheelsets, and one with RP-25 wheelsets. Both ran well, with the later one even smoother. They were well-built, handsome models. As a high school student back then, that was lots of money but it was well worth it.
I called Bowser today to order some small parts and other things for a couple of steam locomotives. Also to check on the G-5 ten wheeler I have on back order. They have six on back order and will produce the engine if enough orders are received. They still have several H-9 Consolidation kits available. I couldn't help notice the number of references in the various posts to the G-5. Basicly Bowser has stopped manufacturing steam locomotives. If those that are interested in the small locomotives as I am, please call and order. I mentioned the number of posts on this subject.
CNJ831 With regard to how one looks at prices/expenses, whether from the position of a juvenile or as an adult when it came to model railroading by in the 50's, I saw it from both perspectives. Back then my dad was also a model railroading enthusiast, one with a pretty average blue collar job, while I worked part time. Neither of us considered spending $29.95 on a Mantua and a bit less on Gilbert (HO) locomotives any really big deal and we each purchased several (still have 'em too!). You simply put aside a little cash each week and in a month or so you had enough to make the purchase. The 1950's weren't the Depression, most people I grew up around had hobbies and at least some disposable income to spend on them. CNJ831
With regard to how one looks at prices/expenses, whether from the position of a juvenile or as an adult when it came to model railroading by in the 50's, I saw it from both perspectives. Back then my dad was also a model railroading enthusiast, one with a pretty average blue collar job, while I worked part time. Neither of us considered spending $29.95 on a Mantua and a bit less on Gilbert (HO) locomotives any really big deal and we each purchased several (still have 'em too!). You simply put aside a little cash each week and in a month or so you had enough to make the purchase. The 1950's weren't the Depression, most people I grew up around had hobbies and at least some disposable income to spend on them.
CNJ831
CNJ:
While reading your post, I was reminded of my senior year in college (1960) and the fact that instead of living in a dorm, I had decided to rent an apartment with a buddy of mine. I had more than enough income from a well-paying summer job working for the Forest Service to afford it (with a roommate) and so did he. We settled into a studio apartment, and I brought along my trains.
I took it home. We put it on the kitchen table and just stared at it for the rest of the evening. All Mike could think of was that we'd be living on potato chips for the rest of the month because I really COULDN'T afford the $39.95 I had just spent on a little hunk of brass and he'd have to pay the whole rent for the next month. Funny thing was, I COULD afford that forty dollars at the time, due to Overtime on forest fires and the fact that almost everything else in those days was CHEAP! Yah, it was kinda/sorta of a hunk of change, but guess what--almost fifty years later, that little PFM (with a new motor) is still chugging around my layout and enjoying the heck out of itself. Even back then, it turned out to be an Absolute Bargain. And it didn't cost me any rent at all.
In current market values, it might cost me a house-payment today, LOL! That is, if I didn't consider it "Disposable Income", a term that we didn't even know EXISTED back then.
I think most of you are overlooking something, and it was brought up in one or two past posts. Roundhouse (Horizon) still has small locomotives available, as does Bowser, and the latter is no slouch when it comes to producing quality engines; if you still doubt, then check out their web site.
One thing also that seems lacking nowadays is the amount pf people accepting the challenge of taking a Roundhouse or a (Mantua???) engines, and making it into a better engine by putting in your time and reaching for the high standards. I don't decry the RTR-ers, or the people who aren't interested in this facet-this is their hobby, too. I am saying to those who have it in them to consider what I say here, and maybe give it a try.
Rich
(Yellowjacket EF-3)
Paul3Barry,There's only been one manufacturer of NH 2-6-0's. New England Rail Service (NERS) did a run of 2-6-0 K-1d's around 15-20 years ago in brass, and they were very expensive at the time compared to other brass. I have one, and I painted and decaled it recently for NH. There is now a DCC decoder in it, and now it needs some tweaking to get it to run perfectly. It's a nice little runner. But that's about it for NH 2-6-0's.
Now you solved that mystery for me because I picked up one for $30 at a yardsale of all things just a couple of days ago! Now mind, this fellow goes after stuff in yard sales because he is a yard sale nut!!
Now the next question is what happens to all the brass tooling when someone goes----PTOOF!!
markpierce (On the other hand, California sales tax was 3% whereas now it is nearly 10%, so while most prices have increased arithmetically over time, taxes have increased exponentially to a factor of 30 [10 times increase in prices times over 3 times higher tax rate].) Mark
(On the other hand, California sales tax was 3% whereas now it is nearly 10%, so while most prices have increased arithmetically over time, taxes have increased exponentially to a factor of 30 [10 times increase in prices times over 3 times higher tax rate].)
This is very true, and a big part of the problem, regarding both the cost of the hobby and the economy in general. Many people today have less actual disposible income, not because products cost more than they should, but because the government now takes a larger PERCENTAGE of their income. On that note I will end because this will lead to discussions not approperate here.
But, taxes or no, the cost of most everything in out economy represents a similar number of work hours now to what it did years ago - primary exception noted above.
Sheldon
andrechapelon , with a wife, 2 or 3 kids (, an income of of around $750/month (about what my dad made at the time and he had 5 of us kids), a mortgage, car payments, etc., you can rest assured I'd be looking at $29.95 in pretty much the same manner a 40 year old head of household in similar circumstances would look at $295 today.
, with a wife, 2 or 3 kids (, an income of of around $750/month (about what my dad made at the time and he had 5 of us kids), a mortgage, car payments, etc., you can rest assured I'd be looking at $29.95 in pretty much the same manner a 40 year old head of household in similar circumstances would look at $295 today.
I agree with you, Mike. Back then, I remember a loaf of bread was 35 cents and candy bars were 5 and 10 cents, and a hamburger sandwich platter was 50 cents. So those prices have increased about ten-fold. A family could live very comfortably on $10,000 a year, which was significantly higher than average and since factoring inflation that's equivalent to about $100,000 now. (On the other hand, California sales tax was 3% whereas now it is nearly 10%, so while most prices have increased arithmetically over time, taxes have increased exponentially to a factor of 30 [10 times increase in prices times over 3 times higher tax rate].)
dehusman But since I model the RDG, if you want to make an HO model 4-6-0 with a Wooten firebox, bring it on! 8-)
But since I model the RDG, if you want to make an HO model 4-6-0 with a Wooten firebox, bring it on! 8-)
Next year, Dave, next year!