Just got my newsletter that BLI is releasing, get this, a 4-12-2.
I can not believe it, now there are two of these engines competing for your dollars. Well as nice as it looks it is just too large for my layout.
Now if someone would just produce a new 2-6-0 or 2-6-2. Anyone remember the MDC Harriman kits? These went from the 0-6-0's all the way to the 2-6-2's with a fair number of engines in between.
I think you are looking at this all wrong. BLI is doing your (and my) wallet a huge favor by making engines that are too large for our layouts. :-)
At the same time, htere are apparently plenty of mr's who will glady pay the big $$ for big steam. This keeps the BLIs and others in business so that one day they may someday make a couple of smaller locomotives.
Reality point #1: Large steam is more profitable to produce than small steam. Model railroaders, for whatever reason, are content to pay based on the number of drivers and size of the engine. Never mind that the cost differential between producing a 4-4-0 and a Big Boy is on the order of 10% when all is said and done. Are you willing to pay 90% of the going price of a Big Boy for your little 4-4-0? Nor will most mr's.
Reality point #2: Model railroaders buy big engines way out of proportion to their needs. Most of us just plain like articulateds better than small engines. So big engines are more profitable and tend to sell better.
Reality point #3: There are fewer actual manufacturers than there are companies importing the locomotives. BLI and MTH were/are using the same manufacturer, and in fact got tangled up in lawsuit(s) over the deals - lawsuit(s) that were recently settled. Lionel and MTH had similar problems a few years ago with a Korean manufacturer. Bachmann's manufacturer also produces locomotives and cars for Blackstone - a Soundtraxx division. It's no coincidence that Bachmann started featuring OEM'd Tsunami decoders in their Spectrum steamers at the same time Blackstone production was beginning. Under these conditions, occasionally making almost (or exactly) the same locomotive for 2 different importers should hardly be surprising. The manufacturer is going to charge extra for locking in exclusive production rights from the tooling, engineering, and design work.
Final point - you get to be a better model builder by seeing how many different ways you can bash a Roundhouse 2-6-0. Which in turn justifies more tools to be used in conjunction with your new skills. The failure to produce a new 2-6-0 or 2-6-2 is the perfect reason to buy that lathe and milling machine you have always dreamed of. :-)
yours in more tools
Fred W
I agree with both. We do need some smaller steamers and the makers will not do them. Its a shame they already have 90% of the parts and tooling needed.
Take BLI for instance. They could take the boiler from the K4 and a 2-8-0 chassis with the short tender from the I1s and some detail changes and they will have an H8, H9 or H10 depending on details and numbers. How many of them would I buy? At least 8.
Life Like started something with the USRA locos but seem to have given up with any more. How about a USRA 2-6-0 or 2-8-0. The real builders made thousands.
Now that Bowser has quit building kits there are few resources for us just getting into the real building phase.
Pete
I pray every day I break even, Cause I can really use the money!
I started with nothing and still have most of it left!
Don:
Not that I'm the least interested in a 4-12-2, but that BLI announcement has me curious. I wonder what THEIR minimum radius is, and if it's smaller than 42" are they going to do something similar to that Gawd-awful articulation that absolutely ruins the MTH loco, at least IMO?
Okay, I've got a somewhat larger than normal home layout with nice generous curves, but I don't mind admitting that I've just about GOT all the big steam I need.
I'm with you--surprise, surprise--I'd like to see some more 4-6-0 and 2-8-0 and possibly 2-6-2 locos come out (I'm always amazed at how MANY railroads had 2-6-2's). I'd like to have a nice fleet of little 2-8-0 workhorses (which for years were pretty much the backbone of the railroad I model) and a couple of 4-6-0's. Some years ago, Roundhouse answered the need rather nicely (plus a lot of Cal-Scale detail parts) and I'd like to see them re-issue some new and improved ones.
But TWO Mfgrs now jockeying for hobby dollars on a locomotive that was only owned by one railroad and even then run only on certain divisions?
Hey, what am I saying. I can't go into a LHS any more without tripping over a Big Boy. And how common were THOSE babies on any railroad besides Union Pacific?
Oh well--
Tom
Tom View my layout photos! http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/mm310/TWhite-014/Rio%20Grande%20Yuba%20River%20Sub One can NEVER have too many Articulateds!
There's no such thing as a USRA 2-6-0 or 2-8-0. The USRA designs were for the following:
0-6-0, 0-8-0, 2-8-2 (light and heavy), 2-10-2 (light and heavy), 2-6-6-2, 2-8-8-2, 4-6-2 (light and heavy), 4-8-2 (light and heavy).
Every single one of the USRA engines has been done by somebody or another.
The L-1 2-8-2 used the same boiler as the K-4. The H-8, 9 and 10 used the same boiler as the E-6 (as did the G-5 4-6-0).
As for smaller steamers, Bachmann makes the Spectrum 2-8-0, 2-10-0, 4-4-0, 4-6-0.
However, it would be nice if someone would make a Harriman Mike or Pacific (light or heavy), a Santa Fe 1050 class 2-6-2 or 1226 class 4-6-2 (or maybe that old PFM standby - the 1950 class 2-8-0).
There's probably also an untapped market for more layout friendly "large" engines like the NC&StL J-3 4-8-4 (Yellojacket or Stripe), a Rutland L-1 4-8-2 or the FEC 4-8-2's in the 400 series that went to several railroads in the 30's. The Cotton Belt L-1/SP GS-7/8 is a good modest sized 4-8-4.
Andre
I forgot to mention Reality Check #4: BLI puts QSI/Blueline sound in all their locomotives. It's a whole lot harder to do a good job with sound in a 2-6-0 and get plenty of weight for traction and fit a decent motor, flywheel, and gearbox and conceal the motor inside the boiler or in front of the backhead detail and arrange the engine-tender wiring so it doesn't cause derailments or loss of traction. It can be done, but takes more upfront engineering and design work, and more assembly labor skill. BLI's smallest locomotive to date was a Mikado. The rest has been medium-large to large engines, and I don't think they are likely to change soon for the reasons given.
First, ditto to everything Andre said.
Second, I have a theory that says somewhere, in attics, basements, warehouse shelves, retail stores and mini storage units of train show dealers, there are already enough HO scale Big Boys for EVERY active modeler with a working length of track to have copies of ALL 25 of those things that ever existed - yet somebody makes more every day?
We need more small and medium steam. Myself and others have repeatedly listed dozens of great choices, any of which we would purchase by the 6 pack if manufactured. Yet we get more rare monsters - go figure?
Sheldon
ATLANTIC CENTRALWe need more small and medium steam. Myself and others have repeatedly listed dozens of great choices, amny of which we would purchase by the 6 pack if manufactured. Yet we get more rare monsters - go figure?
I think this is more of the issue of people -- marketing -- distorting the market by pumping demand for something that has more profitability. MAYBE. Then again, our romantic/modernist tendency for the unique, the original, the exotic---over the merely plebian, mundane things. I keep hunting for the SW's and the RS's and RSD's than the SD70mac's and the like---yet BIG impresses more---
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
I will once again remind any manufacturers who are listening that I do not own any of the following:
UP Big Boy
UP Challenger
SP Cab Forward
UP FEF
PRR T1
PRR K4
N&W Class J
Triplex
anything-10-anything
SP GS4
etc, etc.
So if you want to keep me off your customer list, keep making more of these.
Edit - And while I do not own any of the above models, from any manufacturer, I own over 100 HO locomotives - and will buy more when you make the right stuff.
A 4-12-2? Yawn. Wake me for useful steam, like anything Harriman, or a non-USRA Mikado of ANY kind.
In the mean time, let's all keep supporting Bachmann. THEY at least seem to "get it" when it comes to small steam. Maybe one day someone else will too (hah!).
Ray Breyer
Modeling the NKP's Peoria Division, circa 1943
orsonroy In the mean time, let's all keep supporting Bachmann. THEY at least seem to "get it" when it comes to small steam. Maybe one day someone else will too (hah!).
I will second this comment as well. Bachmann is the backbone of my steam fleet based on their combined quality, price and selection.
I will echo the call for smaller steam, but I do find it interesting that BLI anounces a UP 4-12-2 to compete with MTH's and all of it's short comings. I almost wonder if it's some kind of retaliation for MTH's lawsuit against them a couple years ago.
John.
I'm confused. Everybody wants to be more "prototypical" while engaged in this hobby, so why not do what the prototypes did. If that monster just don't cut it, then cut it and make a couple smaller ones
onequiknova I will echo the call for smaller steam, but I do find it interesting that BLI anounces a UP 4-12-2 to compete with MTH's and all of it's short comings. I almost wonder if it's some kind of retaliation for MTH's lawsuit against them a couple years ago. John.
This would not surprise me. What with people taking certain phrases and switching them into some other dang meaning this would be typical. I'd think too that if done rightly it possibly could be fine work--
ATLANTIC CENTRALI will once again remind any manufacturers who are listening that I do not own any of the following: UP Big Boy UP Challenger SP Cab Forward UP FEF PRR T1 PRR K4 N&W Class J Triplex anything-10-anything SP GS4 etc, etc. So if you want to keep me off your customer list, keep making more of these. Sheldon
Add my name to Sheldon's list. The biggest locomotive I will consider buying is a saturated steam 2-8-0. And I do buy. I just bought a mint HOn3 FED 2-6-0, to which will be added a remotor kit and additional details (another $150). I am waiting for the MMI 4-4-0 to come some day.
In standard gauge, how about:
- an accurate Class A Climax (bet you could sell a bunch of these, and it wouldn't be difficult to make)?
- an 1880s or 1890s 2-6-0 that is an accurate model of a Baldwin, Rogers, or a Porter that was sold and used in the US ?
- use the existing Frateschi shell with a new mechanism for Baldwin 2-8-0s and 4-6-0s?
- a logging 2-4-2T, 2-6-2T, or 2-8-2T (also bet a lot would get sold on cuteness).
You can make any of the above without sound, just isolate the motor for future DCC, please provide good all driver and all tender wheel pickup and I'll be a happy buyer. If you want to make a DCC/sound version, I'm OK with that and would likely buy either one.
...when you wish upon a star...
Will this 4-12-2 work on a 15" radius?
just kidding...man, you people are easy.
San Dimas Southern slideshow
This is not a loaded question at all - it's just that I'm interested because with two manufactueres offering what is the same locomotive model that seems to imply that there must be a descent sized market for this beast.
Only two? That's nothing. The UP Big Boy has had (non-brass in HO):
1. Rivarossi (including the new Hornby resurrection).
2. Athearn.
3. BLI/PCM.
4. Trix.
5. Bowser
They should have divvied up the market with Rivarossi doing 4000-4004, Athearn doing 4005-4009, PCM doing 4010-4014, Trix doing 4015-4019 and Bowser doing kits for 4020-4024.
If I've forgotten any mfg, let me know.
If the same ratio of locos to manufacturers were used for NYC Hudsons, there would be 55 manufacturers who dabbled in J's.
Not counting the ex W&LE Berks, NKP had what, 80 of em (700-779)? That would be 16.
I just had a horrible thought. If there were 55 manufacturers of NYC Hudsons can you imagine the number of questions on the MR Forum about which one's the best?
Don't forget the unpowered Con-Cor Big Boy.
Jason
Modeling the Fort Worth & Denver of the early 1970's in N scale
Okay, So I'll admit it, I'd love to get a 9000 class. That's a 9000, just one. Just as I have a Big boy. Why? It's a Show (-ing off) piece. I take my UP 4019 (With the Elephant Ears...Thank You Genesis, I love you!) to the club for people to oodle. Most of my Steam Fleet is like that, in fact. The bigger locos tend to be more distinctive, and there-in become more apt to become show engines. A friend of mine has a Challenger, and when he's free, we sometimes pretend that the Midwest is Sherman Hill with our two locos. Truth be told, those elephant ears are what pulled me over. I had wanted a Big Boy at sometime, and am in to he modern show steam, since that;s the only real tie I have to that era, but had no use for it besides showing off, and the ears did just that. At some point as well, I'd like to get 844 and 3985(#?) as well. Again for Show Purposes. (Sorry Tom, but Rio Grande just hasn't got the Steam Preservation, and I don't have tools/budget/ability to maintain those beautiful Yellowstones). Also Truthful, and should they be available again, I'd probably look at snapping up more than one AC12 in a heartbeat. But I missd them, and wasn't there something up with the gear towers in the InterMountains?
That said, Half-Moon Orion & Northern's largest engine isn't any longer than a GS4, and likley shorter. Though we did shove a set of drivers under the tender... There should be a picture of her hanging on Page 8 of the current Diner. If/when I develop nough abality (and trust within myself) several versions of the CfD-6 class steamers will be made. 3 to precise, Bicenntenial, Christmas, and straight black. And there are several smaller engines on the roster as well, including a C&O mountain for the George Washington, NKP 587, since I'm near (in the loosest sense of the term) the real one and have a model going of the ITM train, a shay, and an 080 for the IN. Harbor Belt. I'd love to get a Spectrum American sometime too.
And back to the 9000, I wait to see what the radius on it is. Least it doesn;t have the infernal DCS in it this time...
-Morgan
I like the trends going on here, maybe BLI can answer MTH's triplex with the Virginian one.
I doubt now I would buy the MTH for the BLI.
For the small engines I just want Roundhouse to return with the kits.
citylimits...Because the consensus here seems to be in favour of small, or smaller, steamers, I am wondering if any of our fellow forum members, who will be buying either one or both of these big UP steamers could chime in and tell us why they would choose either one or the other - which brand would be the preferred choice and why this model vvould be included in your shopping list...
I'll have a go, but you're getting my small house to look at. I can't show you anyone else's.
First, why am I getting one? 'Cuz its the biggest honkingest rigid framed loco there was this side of the Urals. And unlike its smaller Texas type 2-10-4's, it had a third cylinder and Gresley valves to run that third cylinder. Like one of my favourite roads, the C&O, it had twin flying pumps on the smokebox front. In plain German, it vas baaaad!
I am, like Tom White, hopeless when presented with big steam. Oddly, I have no particular interest in a Big Boy, so I haven't one. I do have the Lionel Challenger, and I have the Pennsy 2-10-4 J1, and the PCM N&W Y6b Mallet, and I have the Rivarossi Allegheny H-8. Oh, and the BLI T1 Duplex 4-4-4-4. I would fall all over each of you in my haste to get in line for a $500 Yellowstone with modern drive and decoder.
Then, MTH announced their 4-12-2. Dang, I am not a big fan of MTH's approach to marketing and engineering. I was interested, I'll admit, until I saw the articulated front end (what were they thinking!?). But the killer for me is the DCS control system. I have purchased my control system....thanks piles...and I don't want any more redundancy than the purchase of my second DT400 affords me. My Super Empire Builder does all I need. I would have to purchase the DCS system to do all I enjoy doing with my SEB if I were to purchase MTH's version of the UP 9000.
I am happy that BLI is effectively taking it to the Mike. BLI will get my dough. They already have my loyalty. They have proven that they can present a good...no, a really good...product. I won't have to get another control system. Yeah, I'll be stuck with some weird 22" curve enabling engineering....I guess...but I love the long snout on this engine....and simply must have it. In fact, I expect I'll cough up for two.
One thing before I go...the MTH model seems to have a rather nifty Gresley valve system operating on the top of its pilot shelf. BLI doesn't make mention of this feature on theirs.
-Crandell
citylimitsThis is not a loaded question at all - it's just that I'm interested because with two manufactueres offering what is the same locomotive model that seems to imply that there must be a descent sized market for this beast. Bruce
Bruce
Read http://www.trains.com/mrr/default.aspx?c=a&id=2665. I don't think that market size for the UP 4-12-2 has much to do with 2 companies producing the same locomotive. I have little doubt that although the 4-12-2 is not on the list of transferred tooling, that production is being shared between BLI and MTH. Whether this is voluntary on the part of both importers or not is another matter, and I suspect both would much prefer to have exclusive rights to a particular prototype with MKT. We can look forward to MTH producing new runs of the transferred BLI tooling when MTH perceives a market opening.
FWIW, the other MTH lawsuit against Korean Brass referred to was about Korean Brass giving trade secrets to and making MTH designs for Lionel. A lawsuit that forced Lionel into bankruptcy until a doable settlement was reached. I'm amazed that MTH continues to place orders with Korean Brass (MKT). The settlement terms must have been good enough.
Just like BLI, MTH is going to favor large engine models. Small engines are not going to hold all their electronics, speakers, and smoke - nor sell at the needed price point. And MTH's 3 rail O heritage fits in very well with getting large locomotives to go around very sharp curves.
my thoughts, your choices
fwright Just like BLI, MTH is going to favor large engine models. Small engines are not going to hold all their electronics, speakers, and smoke - nor sell at the needed price point. And MTH's 3 rail O heritage fits in very well with getting large locomotives to go around very sharp curves.
Fred, All good points, fact remains, my money and the money of MANY modelers I know will remain in our pockets.
I will not buy ANYTHING from MTH until he builds them to operate on DC to NMRA standards, big small or other wise.
I know I may be a minority (but maybe a larger minority than some think), but I do not use DCC or onboard sound or smoke, so companies like Bachmann/Proto/BLI Blueline who keep their prices lower and/or offer DC versions of their products will continue to get my business. And if they choose to make medium or small steam they will get even more.
I have big curves and some big locomotives, but I am building a model railroad, not a collection of the worlds most famous locomotives. I need/want locos that are plausable for my model senerio, not a trip to Steamtown.
andrechapelonI just had a horrible thought. If there were 55 manufacturers of NYC Hudsons can you imagine the number of questions on the MR Forum about which one's the best?
Think that might provoke a few flameouts maybe?
I know that it might leave quite a few locked threads ----
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One thing that is certain, at least from this end of the world, is that there are a lot of collectors out there who do go after the big one's. It is like that in the die cast cars. How many of you seen a die cast AMC Gremlin? Or a Ford Pinto? (and no, the Fresh Cherries don't count) or a Chev Caprice of, say, 1990 vintage? Not too many around. But, boy, will you see Lamborghinis, Ferrarris, Hummers---
It all comes down to the exotic element---and I'm only referring to those who just collect the things. They will drive that market--
blownout cylinder One thing that is certain, at least from this end of the world, is that there are a lot of collectors out there who do go after the big one's. It is like that in the die cast cars. How many of you seen a die cast AMC Gremlin? Or a Ford Pinto? (and no, the Fresh Cherries don't count) or a Chev Caprice of, say, 1990 vintage? Not too many around. But, boy, will you see Lamborghinis, Ferrarris, Hummers---
bc:
I have to say that the die-cast mfrs. are better at this than they had been, for a few years. I mostly buy these for my son (mainly because few are in the right era for my RR (:() and there's a lot of normal cars! Weirdly enough, actual Ferraris and Lamborghinis aren't as common as muscle cars.
I think Mikados need more appreciation. Everybody loves 4-8-4s, I love 4-8-4s, but there were 12 Mikes for every Northern. Looking at the Denver Public Library's photo collection online, that's all you see...Mike, Mike, Mike. People do run them on their layouts, but they just don't get the attention. They're a nice-sized engine for model use, too...big enough to look big, but small enough to take short curves.
Of course, this is all nothing new. You get the same situation back in the 1930s. People had one-horse pikes but ran Hudsons, K4s, and P5a electrics, because that's what was produced. There were familiar-sounding complaints in the letters pages. Over the years, the locos have changed, but this situation has generally persisted...what stands out are the exceptions, like MDC, whose steam was all just right for a small pike. I am really starting to miss that line.
The real point to remember concerning the OP's thoughts is that in our hobby the "collecting" element outnumbers the truly "operating" segment and probably to quite a significant degree today. Very few existing layouts and the type of railroading depicted on them, justifies the use of a large number of huge locomotives, with even fewer layouts having large enough radii to make them look realistic. Yet these engines will sell out quickly every time, as do any re-issues.
It would seem that the collecting element is also much more willing to spend excessives amounts of cash on these large but limited application engines, as compared to the apparently more frugal prototypical hobbyists wishing to populate their locomotive rosters in a realistic manner with various smaller steamers. It's certainly not a new phenomenon in the hobby, but in recent times it has grown decidely out of proportion to what it was in the past.
CNJ831
CNJ831It would seem that the collecting element is also much more willing to spend excessives amounts of cash on these large but limited application engines, as compared to the apparently more frugal prototypical hobbyists wishing to populate their locomotives rosters in a realistic manner with various smaller steamers. It's certainly not a new phenomenon in the hobby, but in recent times it has grown decidely out of proportion to what it was in the past.
And it is not just in this hobby that one finds distorted markets.
Look at an interior design magazine sometimes. Notice style called "Shabby Chic"? Guess what. If you wander into a flea market you'll find pieces for about $30 that you can get that in some dang specialist stores will go for about $350!! And I used to make some $$$ off of this very thing because people will buy it if it is 'in'.
What John is saying is quite true. Audrey's quilts for example--in the 80's we could still get them at yard sales for $5. Now you'd be lucky to find any because the collector with lots of dough came along and --woooosh!!---up goes the price! If the market can bear it--and that also includes the collector with the cash--the prices will go up. And there are a LOT of collectors out there----
CNJ831The real point to remember concerning the OP's thoughts is that in our hobby the "collecting" element outnumbers the truly "operating" segment and probably to quite a significant degree today. Very few existing layouts and the type of railroading depicted on them, justifies the use of a large number of huge locomotives, with even fewer layouts having large enough radii to make them look realistic. Yet these engines will sell out quickly every time, as do any re-issues.
Yes. We have only to look at the history of brass in the last 30 years. Big bucks, tightly controlled numbers, and they all go, mostly to fill a 16" gap in somebody's display case. And even then, if they are only buying the diecast and plastic offerings, fewer than (I would guess) one in ten purchasers would want them for something approximating proto operations. No, they want them (as do I) for their gee-whiz qualities.
The only operation I am hoping to get out of a BLI UP 9000 is one to repair the hernia that ensues first time I hoist it onto the tracks. Ouuuuw!!
At least we're starting to see some different big steam engines now. For a while it was all the same thing (Big Boys, Challengers, Mallets), so it's good to see some variety.
Now if only Horizon would bring out MDC's old steam engine line. Even if it was all ready to run instead of kits, at least we'd have more choice for small steam.
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