I notice my name came up twice on this page in relationship to 'big steam', and yes, I will admit that I have a propensity for it. And I have a relatively good-sized railroad with generous radii and long grades to justify it. But I try and keep my 'big steam' appropriate to the railroads that I model (Rio Grande, SP) with the one exception of my 3 Yellowstones--Rio Grande leased them but never bought them. However I did, LOL!
And I will respectfully disagree a little with CNJ about the 'collecting' aspect of it--BUT ONLY IN MY PARTICULAR CASE, mind you. Modeling the railroads that I model, most of my big steam HAS to be brass, but it's out there on the layout earning its keep (and being 'tinkered' with a lot ).
However, in my own defense, I will say that I've really GOT all the 'big steam' that need. Well, not exactly, I could use a Z-6 4-6-6-4 (which I've got on order and will become a GN 'loaner') but that should really wrap it up as far as articulateds.
What I really have a dearth of are those neat 'backbone' locos of almost any railroad during the steam era, the 2-8-0's, 4-6-0's, 2-8-2's and 4-6-2's (and yes, both Rio Grande and SP had quite a few of them). And why? Well, there just aren't that many available. Bachmann, bless 'em has made some neat inroads with their smaller power, but if you stand back and look at the 'quality' small steam power, there just isn't very much running around.
So, from this particular end of the spectrum, I'm DEFINITELY in the 'smaller steam' camp. I've started running some shorter 'turn' trains on the layout, and I don't mind admitting that they look a little weird behind 2-8-8-2's, LOL!
Tom
Tom View my layout photos! http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/mm310/TWhite-014/Rio%20Grande%20Yuba%20River%20Sub One can NEVER have too many Articulateds!
twhite What I really have a dearth of are those neat 'backbone' locos of almost any railroad during the steam era, the 2-8-0's, 4-6-0's, 2-8-2's and 4-6-2's (and yes, both Rio Grande and SP had quite a few of them). And why? Well, there just aren't that many available. Bachmann, bless 'em has made some neat inroads with their smaller power, but if you stand back and look at the 'quality' small steam power, there just isn't very much running around.
Tom, I'm surprised at you. Suitable mid-sized steam has been available on the used brass market. Let's see, for example, D&RGW locomotives. Consolidations were imported by Key Imports and Nickel PLate. Ten-wheelers were imported by PFM. Mikados were imported by PFM and Sunset. Pacifics were imported by PFM. And then there is the WP and SP stuff. You forgot to include Moguls, but those have been imported too.
You did it with your articulateds, so I know you can do it (buy used, remotor, paint, etc.) with mid-size too.
Mark (fortunate to have purchased new, 2 Challenger Consolidations, 2 Division Point Mikados, 2 Precision Scale Moguls, and a Glacier Park Pacific, all SP)
Mark:
I do have a small representation of smaller brass steam in both Rio Grande and SP--and yes, I'd like to get some more. And yes, in brass, there's quite a bit out there if you search for it and happen to hit the 'market' on the right day, LOL!
My post was actually aimed at DCC or dual-mode modelers who would prefer to have more contemporary plastic locos in smaller wheel sizes, and less 'generic' and more road-specific, sound ready--all of the bells and whistles that are available with the riad-specific large steam being produced by MTH and BLI. To my way of thinking, at least, it seems to be a sadly ignored portion of the hobby market. However, what I would like to see and what the mfgrs. put out seems to be on two entirely different tracks.
Darth Santa Fe At least we're starting to see some different big steam engines now. For a while it was all the same thing (Big Boys, Challengers, Mallets), so it's good to see some variety. Now if only Horizon would bring out MDC's old steam engine line. Even if it was all ready to run instead of kits, at least we'd have more choice for small steam.
At least we're starting to see some different big steam engines now. For a while it was all the same thing (Big Boys, Challengers, Mallets), so it's good to see some variety.
Now if only Horizon would bring out MDC's old steam engine line. Even if it was all ready to run instead of kits, at least we'd have more choice for small steam.
Isn't Roundhouse doing a 4-6-2?
EDIT:L Yep: right here. http://www.roundhousetrains.com/Search/Default.aspx?SearchTerm=4-6-2&CatID=THLS I don't know what Roundhouse quality is like, aside from the decoder, but I see a 2-8-0 in there as well that I haven't seen mentioned much here.
-Morgan
Yes, if they brought out the Harriman in RTR or kits I would buy a few of each.
I sure hope someone at Horizon sees this thread! I know that I'd like to see the line of MDC kits return as I'd buy several more! I was only able to find three of the Santa Fe style 2-6-2 kits before my source dried up. When I e-mailed Athearn to ask about the possibility of reissuing the MDC kits, they unfortunately stated they had no intention of doing so.
Hornblower
AMEN !!!!!!!!. Not only are the manufacturers what we don't want, the prices are bordering on the ridiculous. R. Staller
It would seem that the collecting element is also much more willing to spend excessives amounts of cash on these large but limited application engines, as compared to the apparently more frugal prototypical hobbyists wishing to populate their locomotives rosters in a realistic manner with various smaller steamers. It's certainly not a new phenomenon in the hobby, but in recent times it has grown decidely out of proportion to what it was in the past.
You mean like this guy? http://www.spmogul.com/ Two Moguls and a Baldwin S-12 (although I see an Alco S-2 and a C-9 2-8-0. You gotta have some variety alread).
One of the things that tickles me is the focus on busy main lines rather than secondary mains and/or branches. A good modest sized layout is the White Mountain Division layout in the July MR is that focuses on the branches along the MEC line from Portland to St. Johnsbury, VT. You have the Beecher Falls mixed (4-6-0 in steam, SW-7/9 in the early diesel years or a GP-7 later).There was a local passenger train in each direction from Portland to St Johnsbury (#'s 162/163) powered by small Pacifics in steam, GP7's in diesel with the last run being powered by an E7 and containing more cars than the local ever ran. B&M ran a summer season train (the Mountaineer) from Boston to Whitefield which ran from 3 to 5 cars (diner plus coaches) powered by an E7 postwar. Through MEC freights from Portland to St. Johnsbury and v.v. were powered by MEC's S class 2-8-2's (which included the 6 USRA lights that MEC owned).
Basically the layout as it appears in the July MR could duplicate just about every MEC operation in the area with the added benefit of the "Mountaineer" in season depending on the era modeled. It wouldn't take all that much motive power, either. In steam, you could get away with 2 or 3 Mikes with a couple of 2-8-0's and a 4-6-0 (or another 2-8-0 in N scale sinc 4-6-0's aren't available) plus a B&M E7. Passenger cars: the MEC local passenger ran 3 to 5 cars (some wooden). The Mountaineer ran 3 to 5 cars with a mix of heavyweights and "American Flyer" coaches (now becoming available in HO and hopefully N later).
MEC dieselized the Mountain Division with F3's, GP7's and SW7's/SW9's. The switchers were used as road engines on locals and also replaced the Mikes at Bartlett in helper service. The initial color scheme was the same as B&M. After about 1953, units began being re-painted with green in place of the maroon. Note that the SW's were painted in road colors and not the black with red nose stripes normally assigned to both B&M and MEC switchers. The SW's were MU equipped.
For a diesel roster in the transition years, you could probably get by with 2 F3A's and a single B unit (MEC only owned 10 F units, all F3's, of which only 2 were B's). The 2 AB sets ( 671A and B, 672A and B) bought in 1948 were Phase II and the remaining 6 F3A's were phase IV's. Add 3 or 4 GP7's with one being for trains 162/163 and a couple of SW7's for the locals and you're set.
The one real problem I see with the layout in MR if you want to run B&M's Mountaineer is the fact that there's no way of turning the E unit at Whitefield without some modifications. Don't have room for the layout? Beecher Falls would make a good stand-alone shelf layout with some staging. If you can include Colebrook, so much the better.
Another good MEC based layout would be the Rockland Branch. Four passenger trains in each direction up until the early 50's with seasonal Pullman service and a couple of local freights in each direction. Motive power, 2-8-0's on the freights and Pacifics (including MEC's newest) on the passengers. Depending on the era in diesel, you could use GP7's, the SW7's/9's transferred from Bartlett, an occasional F3 or even, IIRC, an RS-3.
Andre
ATLANTIC CENTRALI will once again remind any manufacturers who are listening that I do not own any of the following: UP Big Boy UP Challenger SP Cab Forward UP FEF PRR T1 PRR K4 N&W Class J Triplex anything-10-anything SP GS4 etc, etc. So if you want to keep me off your customer list, keep making more of these. Sheldon
I will once again remind any manufacturers who are listening that I do not own any of the following:
UP Big Boy
UP Challenger
SP Cab Forward
UP FEF
PRR T1
PRR K4
N&W Class J
Triplex
anything-10-anything
SP GS4
etc, etc.
So if you want to keep me off your customer list, keep making more of these.
Sheldon
Took the words right out of my mouth!
Ray Seneca Lake, Ontario, and Western R.R. (S.L.O.&W.) in HO
We'll get there sooner or later!
Ever get the feeling the manufacturers are starting to cater to the collector market and forgot their own roots? Kinda makes one wonder---
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
blownout cylinder Ever get the feeling the manufacturers are starting to cater to the collector market and forgot their own roots? Kinda makes one wonder---
The manufactures will go where ever the money is. If the collectors become the main market then expect even more of the unusual and big steamers. If the model railroaders with the smaller home layouts become the majority then I would expect more small steamer.
There is also another aspect to consider, steam versus diesel, not many modelers were around when steam was running. I spent a lot of time in the prairies and that is where Canadian steam spent the majority of it last days. I remember seeing the large CPR grain trains with the Selkirk engines near the end of steam days.
As that appears not to be happening, with the exception of the Bachmann Spectrums. Perhaps Bachmann has found the perfect nich market and the majority of purchasers are the small layout model railroaders. Should not forget Roundhouse also seems to recognize the need for smaller steam engines.
Yeh' wait'll they come out with one of these baby's then we can really scream...lol!
CB&Q Modeler Yeh' wait'll they come out with one of these baby's then we can really scream...lol!
Love it!! All that to get UP over the little 'bump' in the Rockies that they called Sherman Hill. Have no idea what they'd have concocted if they ever round a real MOUNTAIN on their route, LOL!
I want one! It would be ideal for a 5 m.p.h. drag freight, but I wonder if the engine crew would need to be changed more often than resupplying the locomotive with water and fuel. Which bring me to the question: how many crew would be needed to run this thing? There are two cabs.
Mark
So, this is what a 4-8-8-0+4-8-8-4+0-8-8-4 looks like; what I would call a true triplex, and apparently a triple articulated too. Sorry guys: in my mind an Erie "triplex" is merely a duplex.
Jason
Modeling the Fort Worth & Denver of the early 1970's in N scale
twhite CB&Q Modeler Yeh' wait'll they come out with one of these baby's then we can really scream...lol! Love it!! All that to get UP over the little 'bump' in the Rockies that they called Sherman Hill. Have no idea what they'd have concocted if they ever round a real MOUNTAIN on their route, LOL! Tom
That would be a classic Union Pacific idea!! What would have been it's overall length?
Tom- After looking at that I'd be wondering the same thing. It would be HUGE!!!
jguess733why are the manufacturers so adverse to producing kits? It would seem to me that it would cut down on labor costs if they don't have to pay somebody to assemble it. Just roll it off the assembly line and into the box. Then again I could be mistaken.
I don't want to rain on your parade, but they still have to pay people to put the pieces parts in boxes and make sure that nothing's missing. It's not automated. There's no assembly line, either, either for kit pieces or completed models.
andrechapelonI don't want to rain on your parade, but they still have to pay people to put the pieces parts in boxes and make sure that nothing's missing. It's not automated. There's no assembly line, either, either for kit pieces or completed models.
Excuse me for being a little but since there is no automated system involved we'd have to assume there are humans doing the work then, right? OK fine. Then there must be some kind of production line involved. If it is not automated and there is no assembly line for either the kit/completed models then how do they come out? Via thin air?
Some kind of human activity has to done if the product is going to be made/distributed. There are methods that can be used to do this without the traditional idea of an assembly line. Please rest assured I'm not bouncing on your head but I do think something went awry here---
An assembly line implies that the work moves in a sequential pattern to multiple work stations where the workers perform a very small number of highly repetitive operations as the line is moving towards the next work station. The classic example is an automobile assembly plant. However, an assembly line doesn't require a mechanical line. If the work is small enough, the items being worked on can be passed from one worker to another, but IIRC, that's not the way things are built in the MR industry. 'Course, my memory could be faulty.
Besides, an assembly line with respect to kits makes no sense. It would be as if Ford sent components in a line with more being added as the line moved until every component required to make a vehicle was dumped in a big box for assembly by the buyer. There's no assembly line because no assembly is done. That reminds me of a story that appeared in Car & Driver (IIRC) many years ago about a guy who was determined to build his own VW Beetle (the old one). Turns out, the "kit" cost 4 times more than the ready to run version because he had to buy the parts at retail. The story was fictional, but the relative cost was pretty close to what it would have been.
andrechapelonHowever, an assembly line doesn't require a mechanical line. If the work is small enough, the items being worked on can be passed from one worker to another, but IIRC, that's not the way things are built in the MR industry
Some of the smaller operations in China that I knew of ran sort of along that line you just mentioned but some of the Kader things are somewhat mechanised. When Len and I figure out more of that cnc machine then I'll be somewhat closer to getting an actual frame made out of barstock---I've done up a wheelset on it but---
Some of the books I've managed to find on production mgmt tended to refer to such hands on lines as a type of assembly line.
Hence my
Big famous steam always seem to get the money and sales. FDT has the USRA Mikado's on a two for one sale. Nice smaller locomotive and they can't give them away. It could be that too many have been imported over the past few years and the market is satisfied for now.
I would like to see all sizes of locomotives available to us. The PRR E6 and G5 would be a great choice for my money if BLI could see their way to make that model.
CZ
jguess733I'm fairly certain that if you are paying someone hourly that they will be able to move a lot more product if they are simply breaking pieces from a mold and putting them into boxes than if they were stuck puttying together one piece of rolling stock together at a time. And I know there is a demand for kits because I can't count the number of posts pertaining to lack of kits.
I've haven't worked directly in manufacturing, but I have worked in construction and electronics project planning and aircraft maintenance.
I would agree that producing a kit takes less assembly labor. But kits have much higher QC and support costs. It's a lot easier to ensure all the parts are on an assembled car or locomotive than making sure all the parts (and the right numbers of them) are in the kit box. Downstream, after the model has been sold, a certain percentage of defective RTR will get returned. The cheap and easy way out is to just replace the defective model - that way you don't have to have any skilled staff to trouble-shoot and repair. Bachmann does this pretty well. With a kit, there is no way around a skilled staff (is often one person or less for smaller manufacturers) to hold the hands of those who got in over their heads, and to replace parts that got broken, omitted, or lost either at assembly or in the modeler's hands. And even if a few $$ are charged for replacement parts in some cases, support is going to be a loss center, not a profit center. Also, a larger parts stock is required for kit support than for RTR support because of breakage or damage that occurs due to modeler rather than factory error.
A saving grace for kits is that the best estimates are that 75% of kits bought never get opened (according to a British model railroading magazine poll in the '80s or '90s). My shelves attest to the validity of the estimate. Obviously, these unopened kits have no support costs.
Overall, my semi-educated guess is that the total costs to the manufacturer for a plastic kit are about the same for RTR and kits. For craftsman type kits that require more assembly labor and higher skill levels for assembly than plastic, kits are likely cheaper to produce than RTR. But the manufacturer can charge a 20% or greater premium for RTR vs kit. Hence, the dearth of new tooling being produced as plastic kits.
my thoughts and experiences
Fred W
CAZEPHYRFDT has the USRA Mikado's on a two for one sale. Nice smaller locomotive and they can't give them away. It could be that too many have been imported over the past few years and the market is satisfied for now.
The only ones on the two for one sale are the "left overs" in roadnames nobody wants, fact is on this latest run of Mikes from BLI, undecorated was one of the first things to sell out, as did a number of other roadnames.
The two for one sale is just another example of BLI being undercapitalized and having to give away product to move the rest of it quickly. Not the best business model in my opinion.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL CAZEPHYRFDT has the USRA Mikado's on a two for one sale. Nice smaller locomotive and they can't give them away. It could be that too many have been imported over the past few years and the market is satisfied for now. The only ones on the two for one sale are the "left overs" in roadnames nobody wants, fact is on this latest run of Mikes from BLI, undecorated was one of the first things to sell out, as did a number of other roadnames. The two for one sale is just another example of BLI being undercapitalized and having to give away product to move the rest of it quickly. Not the best business model in my opinion. Sheldon
I agree that they are ones that left over but they still are a deal to anyone wanting smaller steam. This type of sale has been going on with the BLI products dating back to the first big blow out sale about four years ago when the founder left the company. I picked up several PCM Big Boys for very little money with and without lettering along with several other models. The Mikado's can be decaled for any road after the other names are removed.
What you are seeing the realities of a capitalist market.
When I got into model railroading as an adult there were TONS of steam models available in HO from a large number of manufacturers.
The REASON there aren't many today is because the manufacturers couldn't sell them. They just aren't that much in demand. The generation who can actually remember when Steam rode the rails and the diesel was the new kid on the block is greying (if not outright dying).
To many of today's modelers 1st generation diesels are some kind of antique.
Its sad but true those models wouldn't have gone away if they had been hot sellers. They weren't so people who want to stay in business are going to make what they think is going to sell. Want a particular steamer, start an email campaign to get it produced, enough emails and they'll make them.
But then you had better by them or they won't pay attention to you next time.
Why do people think model train manufacturer/importers produce items which are expected to be most in demand by their customers? It is far more likely model train businesses produce items that the owner and/or key employees want for themselves with the hope they can then sell enough of the product to cover production costs.
A major reason why smaller steam locomotive models have been slow sellers is due to many of them suffering from less-than-stellar quality.
TwinZephyrA major reason why smaller steam locomotive models have been slow sellers is due to many of them suffering from less-than-stellar quality
Equine plumage---the demand is there. They did not put that much effort into selling/making the dang things in the first place. And even if what you do say is the case then that is all a dang excuse for another way to avoid doing the work----