The sad joke in all of this is that, prior to the rise of Internet forums, 90% of hobbyist really didn't know or care all that much whether their rollingstock was absolutely accurate or not and therefore relatively inexpensive, more or less generic, equipment was perfectly acceptable to the majority of modelers. If you wanted free-standing grabs or ladders, different doors, or see-through runningboards to match some prototype, you added them yourself...because you were actually a modeler.
With the coming of the Internet, hobbyists were told by self appointed "experts" what was accurate and what was not, along with it being implied that prototypical accuracy was the only way to model. Even today pretty much the same 90% of hobbyists still can't recognize the difference between a truly accurate model and one that simply conforms to general RR construction principles...unless they are told by the "experts", who continue to deride any new model that isn't accurate down to the last rivet.
The supposed need for ever increasing accuracy in our models has been and is currently driven by a relatively small faction of highly vocal individuals in the hobby, the consequence of which has been to caused the manufacturers to attempt to offer ever nearer museum quality models...at prices that are progressively moving beyond the range of the average hobbyist.
Those who have been in the hobby many years will recall that five decades ago, screwdriver-assemby, rather generic, brass models were priced in the $20 to $30 range (when far more crude diecast examples were similarly priced). In that era upwards of 50% of hobbyists owned at least a few brass cars or locos. As the demand for higher accuracy and for specific prototypes rose, so did the prices along with a decline in the number of modelers owning brass. Today brass ownership is a miniscule, vanishing, niche group within the hobby.
Be careful just how far you push the prototypical accuracy factor. Folks may be driving the hobby itself down the same road brass has already traveled.
CNJ831
Seems to me that if these here internet-worky forooms existed some decades ago we would be talking about the price of those new-fangled and very detailed imported brass locomotives that cost 50 bucks when a perfectly good steam loco kit from Mantua or an F7 from Athearn was under 20.
George V.
Getting back to the "American Flyer" cars, the Rapido line is quite nice. However, I simply can't justify dropping that sort of coin on what is, after all, a toy. Mortgage and car payments take priority :p Besides, I already have a few of the ECW cars to play with. Once you've assembled them, added some piping underneath, fitted them with Kadees and metal wheelsets, and given them a proper Penn Central (yes, a few did run on PC trains!) they don't look too bad. Mix them in with some former PRR P70s,a GP7, '9, or an E unit (which may, or may not be in shiny black!), and you have a nice commuter train.
andrechapelon But then it does come down to priorities. The average joe might want something prototypically correct and what would he do? Save up to get it. It has been done by countless people before. There you go again with that insane idea of saving your money in order to buy what you want in the future. Gratification must not be delayed It's HERESY, I tell you. Andre
But then it does come down to priorities. The average joe might want something prototypically correct and what would he do? Save up to get it. It has been done by countless people before.
There you go again with that insane idea of saving your money in order to buy what you want in the future. Gratification must not be delayed
It's HERESY, I tell you.
Andre
I know, but what the hey--someone has to say it---Quixote with the ol' windmill here---yeah right--
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
TA462It works for Atlas for now. Maybe they are hoping that Trainman purchasers will eventually step up and buy their more detailed higher end loco's in the future. I think of it as a bait and switch thing. Atlas baits the potential purchaser with a history of well detailed great running loco's and then sells a lesser product under the Trainman line to unsuspecting, new to the hobby model railroaders. I know my LHS has sold a bunch of Trainman sets so at least they are getting people interested in the hobby at the very least with the Trainman line.
And if that be so then all the more power to them. It's been done all the time----
TA462 You have people now buying Trainman loco's thinking they are just as good as the Classic, Silver and Gold series. Are they? I don't think so and I feel sorry for all the new modellers that are being suckered into buying them because they heard about Atlas quality and detail. I can't tell you how many times I've spoke to people at shows who truly believe that their Trainman GP38 is just as good as my Atlas Silver series GP40 they see pulling cars on my club layout. It's like they are looking down at me thinking I'm the sucker because I bought a more expensive unit, lol. In reality EVERYBODY wants the best and in my opinion if Rapido was to deviate from what made them popular then it would be like taking a step backwards.
I think that what ATLAS is doing is great. The idea of having that many lines works for them---it won't for RAPIDO, that I'm pretty sure of--but the problem of trying to say that a less detailed line is better than their gold series is just as stupid IMO as saying X is better than Y when it all comes down to what the customer wants.
Me--I'd just save the money up and get the more detailed lokes--BTW some of my recent switcher purchases did involve a lot of ATLAS Trainman series as well as gold--and there is a HUGE difference between the two-- in terms of detail/quality of fit etc.--and all of these came out of a fleamarket of all things.
fwright Actually, MR did just that with a project layout in the '90s - in an attempt to build a layout for $500. And they used to sum all the costs for their '50s project layouts. While keep track of rolling stock costs may have made sense in the '50s when there was little choice, and most offerings were generic, the awesome selection for specific prototypes today makes duplicating MR's project railroad a lot less likely.
Actually, MR did just that with a project layout in the '90s - in an attempt to build a layout for $500. And they used to sum all the costs for their '50s project layouts.
While keep track of rolling stock costs may have made sense in the '50s when there was little choice, and most offerings were generic, the awesome selection for specific prototypes today makes duplicating MR's project railroad a lot less likely.
fw:
There's a little more to it. The emphasis on cost went kaput pretty quickly about the time LHW became editor, and we can be sure this was no coincidence. Read Westcott's farewell interview (a somewhat tragic one, with hindsight; he was clearly looking forward to an enjoyable retirement, but it would not last long). Included in his vision for MR, from the very start, were the following - to encourage readers to patronize manufacturers, and to draw more professional types, such as doctors, into the hobby. When you want people to buy, you don't emphasize cost, and Westcott seemed to feel that the professionals would be well-heeled enough not to worry about cost.
(He couldn't have known many doctors. Some of them are the most incredible cheapskates...)
Of course, there were always mavericks, like E. L. Moore, who held on that old-time cost concern a quarter century after it was unfashionable, and who wrote a LOT. This tended to dilute the impact. Bless the mavericks! Then too, there was a lot more to LHW than this particular vison. He seemed to have an opinion on everything. We've got a lot of those types in this hobby, which is bad because it only encourages me more. :D
Midnight Railroader TA462I find it funny that people where asking for a less detailed and cheaper Rapido car. Rapido in my opinion is built on detail. To make a less detailed Rapido car would only cheapen the whole line. The idea that someone's created a very good model and people are asking for one not quite so good is a little odd.
TA462I find it funny that people where asking for a less detailed and cheaper Rapido car. Rapido in my opinion is built on detail. To make a less detailed Rapido car would only cheapen the whole line.
The idea that someone's created a very good model and people are asking for one not quite so good is a little odd.
I'd really like to know how that would work, anyways. I could see something like that but---why not just go with Athearn then?
TA462 I have around 20 of Rapido's passenger cars and they are simply the best passenger equipment I own and a far cry from my Athearn Bombardier GO Train cars. If your modest needs are satisfied with Athearn cars then great but don't think they are anywhere close to the same league that Rapido cars are in.
I'm guessing the community he's in is not quite in the same ballpark as yours or even mine are in--He did say something about them being in a working class area. But even then, I've got a few people who are on a fixed income(~$1700/month total: couple) who still feel that it is worth it to buy higher quality and will save to buy it. Especially those who model the specific prototypes---
I'm going to suggest here--not so.
It is like anything else. Just because--I'm really stretching this point to make the argument--Rapido goes and makes a less detailed line should not cheapen the whole. What is it with this all/nothing argument anyways? There is no reason why having a less detailed 'line' should wipe Rapido's more detailed line into the garbage pail. This mindset: "All or Nothing", tends to bugger up a whole slew of things, making for unnecessary issues. Why should this make that huge a difference in the first place?
andrechapelonYou're comparing apples to oranges. You can get all kinds of passenger cars painted in SP "Daylight" colors in both N and HO scales. However, the only ones (so far) that are both immediately available AND prototypically correct are the Kato N scale cars which model the 1941 "Daylight".
And at a pretty reasonable price you could get a 10 car set no less. I don't think that I'd be buying that kind of thing simply because my shortline would need a lot larger passenger base to begin with. And while I may be something of a collector I tend towards wanting things that might be running out where my shortline is--not having them necessarily sitting in a display rack.
Now if you guys want to paty $75.00 a pop for a passenger car then by all means go fer it..Just don't expect the average joe modelers to do it.Not from what I am hearing..
You're comparing apples to oranges. You can get all kinds of passenger cars painted in SP "Daylight" colors in both N and HO scales. However, the only ones (so far) that are both immediately available AND prototypically correct are the Kato N scale cars which model the 1941 "Daylight".
Athearn's generic shorty cars are cheap. Nobody argues that. They are not, however, prototypically correct for SP "Daylight" (the 77' 1937 "Daylight" chair car hasn't been released yet and that one's slated to go for $60). If you're happy with generic shorties, more power to you. Just don't try to convince a knowledgeable SP type that you're modeling the 1939 "Morning Daylight" using a Bachmann GS-4 and Athearn shorties.
Just because it's a "passenger car" doesn't mean it's correct for a specific train and just because it's cheaper, doesn't mean it's a good deal. It has to be both cheaper AND prototypically correct to be a good deal.
You also don't have to pay $75 for the NYNH&H Osgood-Bradley's either. I've seen them advertised for considerably less. If you model the Bangor & Aroostook, you don't need a lot of them for a train. The "Potatoland Special" and "Aroostook Flyer" were both pike size passenger trains running 4-5 cars each, not all of which were coaches. Rapido also needs to do the baggage-mail cars in both green and the later gray with blue stripe scheme: http://www.railwayclassics.com/images/amflyer/BA04-4x.jpg Coach: http://www.railwayclassics.com/images/amflyer/BA01-4x.jpg
Not to mention the buffet lounge: http://www.railwayclassics.com/images/amflyer/BA03-3x.jpg
With a mail-baggage, coach, buffet-lounge plus a through 6-6-4 sleeper off the New Haven via B&M and MEC, you've got a nice pike size passenger train. Oh yeah, you'd need an E-7 to pull it. Nobody's going to do a BAR 4-6-2 ( http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/bar/ba-s253.jpg ), but E-7's are readily available and BAR was fully dieselized in 1951. You could also use an F-3, which Athearn has thoughtfully done in its Genesis line.
Here's the 1954 schedule: http://www.streamlinerschedules.com/concourse/track3/potatoland195407.html
BAR E7 #700: http://www.mainememory.net/bin/Detail?ln=17987&supst=enlarge
As I recall, BAR's two E7's were renumbered 10 and 11 some time in the early 50's.
Apparently Railway Classics was going to do the O-B's in "investment grade" brass. Care to venture a guess as to what the price of those would have been?
Andre,
Brakie,I don't expect "average Joe" model railroaders to buy these O-B cars. They are not generic enough to appeal to anyone who models a RR that had smoothside lightweight cars, unless they did indeed have these cars. They have a turtleback roof and they are flush riveted, which makes them fairly unique.
They are also at a price point that strongly discourages picking one up just because one likes the pretty colors. I feel the same about all these passenger trains that Walthers brings out even at half the cost of the Rapido's. That "Empire Builder" sure looks pretty, but I wouldn't buy one because my hobby dollar is better spent on things that support my NH addiction, ahem...I mean layout.
But these O-B cars are almost a "must have" for any NH fan. The NH had over 200 of these types of cars (69 10-window, 101 11-window, 30 smokers, and 5 Grill cars), built from 1934 to 1938. Of the 756 locomotive-hauled revenue passenger cars on the NH in 1956 (for example), the O-B cars made up over 27% of the total fleet. The O-B cars were the single most common passenger car-type on the NH in the post-war era.
Don't get me wrong, I don't enjoy paying $75 ea. for a passenger car. But considering my options (kits or brass), it's not bad at all. It's like the InterMountain NE-5 cabooses. They are $50 (twice the price of the Atlas NE-6's), but considering that the only other models out there are either $125 brass or $250 brass, $50 ain't so bad.
Paul A. Cutler III*******************Weather Or No Go New Haven*******************
BRAKIE When compared to a Rapido car for $75.00 or 3 Branchlines for $119.85 then to my mind that is a good deal. Now if you guys want to paty $75.00 a pop for a passenger car then by all means go fer it..Just don't expect the average joe modelers to do it.Not from what I am hearing..
When compared to a Rapido car for $75.00 or 3 Branchlines for $119.85 then to my mind that is a good deal.
But are we talking the same thing? If I want a spot on coach that is an exact scale replica then I'll pony up the $80 or so needed to get it--and I'll do it month- by- month if need be. I've seen the branchlines up here going for higher--remember the limp wristed canadian dollar?--so any deal is countered elsewhere--
andrechapelon Paul3 Brakie,Okay, let's review:Your first post: you start by replying to a post on a thread that's called "Sticker Shock" that talks about the $75 cost of the new Rapido cars, saying "Don,You're not the first to mention the price tags." You then said that a person you talked to said the Rapido price was "unacceptable" and that you agreed with him. The very next words on the screen are, "A oddity is Branchline's 3 pack kits sells for $119.85..A fairly good bargain if one doesn't mind building kits." Therefore, you feel that $75 is unacceptable for a RTR passenger car and that $40 for an HO passenger car kit is okay. Conclusion: Since you've stated that Branchline kits are a good deal while Rapido cars are unacceptable, you are in effect saying that people should buy Branchline kits instead of Rapidos. This, of course, has the problem that they aren't the same car, and that those that want mainline NH coaches vs. commuter NH coaches are going to have to buy unacceptable cars from Rapido. Where have I twisted anything around?Paul A. Cutler III*******************Weather Or No Go New Haven******************* Now you've torn it. You just had to go use logic on him, didn't you? And he still doesn't recognize that the Branchline 3 pack is no bargain since it's 3 times the individual price (less $.09, big whoop). If it were buy 3, get the 4th free, that might be a bargain. Now if Rapido (or Branchline) were to do Harriman coaches, I might consider buying them. Even at $75 a pop if they're dead on accurate. Andre
Paul3 Brakie,Okay, let's review:Your first post: you start by replying to a post on a thread that's called "Sticker Shock" that talks about the $75 cost of the new Rapido cars, saying "Don,You're not the first to mention the price tags." You then said that a person you talked to said the Rapido price was "unacceptable" and that you agreed with him. The very next words on the screen are, "A oddity is Branchline's 3 pack kits sells for $119.85..A fairly good bargain if one doesn't mind building kits." Therefore, you feel that $75 is unacceptable for a RTR passenger car and that $40 for an HO passenger car kit is okay. Conclusion: Since you've stated that Branchline kits are a good deal while Rapido cars are unacceptable, you are in effect saying that people should buy Branchline kits instead of Rapidos. This, of course, has the problem that they aren't the same car, and that those that want mainline NH coaches vs. commuter NH coaches are going to have to buy unacceptable cars from Rapido. Where have I twisted anything around?Paul A. Cutler III*******************Weather Or No Go New Haven*******************
Brakie,Okay, let's review:Your first post: you start by replying to a post on a thread that's called "Sticker Shock" that talks about the $75 cost of the new Rapido cars, saying "Don,You're not the first to mention the price tags." You then said that a person you talked to said the Rapido price was "unacceptable" and that you agreed with him.
The very next words on the screen are, "A oddity is Branchline's 3 pack kits sells for $119.85..A fairly good bargain if one doesn't mind building kits." Therefore, you feel that $75 is unacceptable for a RTR passenger car and that $40 for an HO passenger car kit is okay. Conclusion: Since you've stated that Branchline kits are a good deal while Rapido cars are unacceptable, you are in effect saying that people should buy Branchline kits instead of Rapidos. This, of course, has the problem that they aren't the same car, and that those that want mainline NH coaches vs. commuter NH coaches are going to have to buy unacceptable cars from Rapido.
Where have I twisted anything around?Paul A. Cutler III*******************Weather Or No Go New Haven*******************
Now you've torn it. You just had to go use logic on him, didn't you?
And he still doesn't recognize that the Branchline 3 pack is no bargain since it's 3 times the individual price (less $.09, big whoop). If it were buy 3, get the 4th free, that might be a bargain.
Now if Rapido (or Branchline) were to do Harriman coaches, I might consider buying them. Even at $75 a pop if they're dead on accurate.
Actually Guys,I will make this very clear.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Oh--and this little one fell over price as advert in Walthers for KATO RDC's as $80/car RTR. Pretty good for a small shortline/commuter!
Then again--for a dead accurate passenger coach any price in the $80 range is still pretty good--and within my monthly budget line!!
Of course---is there ANYTHING in N scale for those who run NH? Nah!!
At least I found my KATO RDC's--3 complete sets worth. All in about 3 seperate visits---I wonder what they gone for new---these I found in a fleamarket of all things.
Again though--no matter what one is looking for--you don't need to break the budget for the next 4 months by doing the whole schmeer all at once---or do you?
I'm acting like some kind of budget coach here--what do I know---
Paul,Once again you are twisting things around..
Nowhere did I say that folks don't need $75 Rapido's because folks can buy $40 Branchline kits.
Sure I mention the Branchline cars as I did Athearn.
I also mention the 3 kits for $119.85..
Also look again there are also heavy weight coaches.
http://www.branchline-trains.com/blueprint/passengercars/coach/coach.htm
These was used in regular passenger service by other roads.
Now,the NH used 'em the best way that fit their needs.
Brakie,Um, you did compare them by saying that folks don't need $75 Rapido's because folks can buy $40 Branchline kits. That's a comparison.
The single window coaches that Branchline came out with were heavyweight commuter cars on the NH. The others are all sleepers, and that's only a handfull (the NH only had a few overnight trains...longest run on the NH was 230 miles or so). The Rapido 10-window O-B cars were long distance coaches meant for use on mainline trains from Boston to New York City (the NH had hourly name trains every day). Therefore, if one wants to model common daily operations on the NH's mainline (like me), one needs O-B coaches from 1934 to 1968.
Andre said:
You're treating the Rapido cars as if they were a commodity like wheat, corn or rice where there are substitutes.
-----------
Funny,I didn't know I was a commodity broker..
Paul,I think you missed the boat..What I said was the Athearn cars would fit my modest needs and no where did I compare the Rapido car with the branch line car...
Funny those Branchline passenger cars are heavy weight cars not commuter cars-unless NH used heavy weights for commter cars.
http://www.branchline-trains.com/blueprint/passengercars/pass_intro.htm
Paul,Buying RTR is a modelers option but,many perfer to build kits rather then take it out of the box,change out couplers(if needed) and place on the layout..
Like you would prefer the RTR cars..
I never thought building kits was a job..I see it has it is a hobby which in all truth is a money pit that we pour money into for our personal enjoyment and gratification be it buying RTR or kits...
As far fun..I would have fun running Athearn passenger cars as thousands do.Your fun comes from running exact duplicates of NH cars..See we're both having fun in our own style.
The hobby is large enough for all modelers regardless of modeling style.
Brakie:
Andre,When compared to the price of 3 Rapido cars its a bargain.
As far as Rapido they can charge what they want I won't be buying 'em.
More power to those that do and they can buy my share
If, in the 80's, you wanted to model the CIWL cars of the 20's/30's "Orient Express" (as in "Murder On The"), you bought Rivarossi cars and they were $75 back then. I know because I picked 3 up in Paris at a time when the dollar was at a high point vs. the franc, deutschmark, Swiss franc, etc.
Since you woudn't be be buying them, anyway, your share would be 0.
Jason,I'm glad to hear that the roof has been corrected! That's great news for me, as now I can focus on getting the painted models without worrying about possible modifications. Nice to see that you listen to multiple experts on the prototype, unlike a certain other Canadian company that made things for the NH. That other company said they relied on one NH "expert" (and I use that term loosely) to correct their NH products, and he was so wrong it wasn't funny. Thanks for not being like them.
Hey, since I got you, do you realize that you're killing NH fans with 5(!) NH paint schemes in the very first run? Are you trying to bankrupt us? I hope the NH sales don't disappoint you because I don't know of too many NH fans that can afford all 36 car #'s at once ($2700). For example, I can only afford 4 cars in the first run in just two paint schemes, and I'd like to buy more coaches later on when my "hobby money fund" recovers. I just hope they aren't all gone by then, and that you don't take initial sales of these cars as the limiting factor for future NH products. Thanks!
Brakie,Please stop with the Athearn passenger car comparison. You don't model the New Haven, and the NH was a passenger hauling railroad (3rd in the nation). Having a car like the Athearn represent NH passenger ops is like having the Athearn GP30 fill in for all those GP9's you have. It ain't even close, IOW.
Sure, using Athearn cars for NH trains can be done, but that doesn't mean that it's much fun if you are a NH fan. If one is trying to have fun modeling an actual prototype, Athearn passenger cars are anti-fun.
And the Branchline comparison? Sorry, but not even close. For starters, the Branchline coach is a commuter car. The Rapido coach is the 10-window version, which was used on mainline name trains (a "long distance" coach, IOW). Different service, different need.
The other is that the Branchline is a kit at $40 ea. The first one I built took me 7 hours to complete (I kept track for an article in a newsletter). The next two took me less time, probably 4 to 5 hours each. Call that 16 hours of labor for 3 cars. If the price difference is $35 ea. for the Rapido's, that means I saved $105 by buying Branchline kits. That would mean I'm working at $6.51 an hour just so I can save money? Sorry, but my hobby is running model trains, not building them (I build them because I have to). Sixteen hours is better spent on improving the railroad vs. building car kits IMHO.
Barry,I am retired..Suffice to say on a fixed income the best discounts is your friend..
I could buy 1-2 Rapido passenger cars a month at discount if I so wish.However,again for my modest needs the Athearn passenger cars will suffice or the Kato 4 pack in N.
However,as of now I am not interested in passenger trains.
Subject to change of course.
What I find interesting is the problem of budgeting such that one can find the coaches, or what have you, as needed. I know people who are on gov't disability pensions who actually manage to budget a certain amount/month and save it for the item they feel they need, or just get scenery materials as needed--or even stockpile as the case may be. The question of 3packs vs 1 at a time might not be so much an issue if one thinks in terms of longer periods of time vs an immediate bigtime hit to the wallet.
But then what am I talking about. I'm not a financial planner----
andrechapelon Brakie: A oddity is Branchline's 3 pack kits sells for $119.85..A fairly good bargain if one doesn't mind building kits. How's that a bargain? It's 3 times the price of an individual kit. You can get the same effect buying 1 kit at a time until you have the 3 cars you want. Then you don't have to shell out all the money at once. Besides, if you buy the 3 pack, you get all the same type of car. Buy 'em one at a time and you can mix/match. The Rapido MSRP doesn't bother me. I'm not buying because they're out of my era for the SP (who got Cotton Belt OB's in the late 50's when SSW quit the passenger biz). Andre
A oddity is Branchline's 3 pack kits sells for $119.85..A fairly good bargain if one doesn't mind building kits.
How's that a bargain? It's 3 times the price of an individual kit. You can get the same effect buying 1 kit at a time until you have the 3 cars you want. Then you don't have to shell out all the money at once. Besides, if you buy the 3 pack, you get all the same type of car. Buy 'em one at a time and you can mix/match.
The Rapido MSRP doesn't bother me. I'm not buying because they're out of my era for the SP (who got Cotton Belt OB's in the late 50's when SSW quit the passenger biz).
More power to those that do and they can buy my share..
Fred W
Thanks for your thoughts. There's no question that the rolling stock and motive power we choose to operate on our layouts impact the price - I am looking more at the cost of a layout itself. While I agree that we have more variety (and price ranges) available today, the Beer Line articles featured components that I think most of us who have been in the hobby for a while are familiar with and are widely available - DPM, Walthers, and so on. The Beer Line articles were written (I think) as a tutorial for the newcomer, and as such, I think it would be a useful service to them to understand how much they should expect to pay "for a layout similar to this one". Obviously, every layout will have a different cost depending on size, complexity, etc.
But at least, if they state "this particular layout cost $X to build" it gives people - particularly newcomers - a ballpark sense of what you can build for a given amount of money. Perhaps they could list rolling stock and locos separately. I just think it's a bit of useful information that should be included.
Cheers.