At this moment there were 45 guests and only five members at this forum. I have the impression there are many more viewers than participants viewing the forum almost all the time. That got me to wondering. What proportion of these people are modelers versus the curious? Why don't more of them participate? Why did I just have the thought that we participants are zoo animals under observation? Are there lots of foreign viewers who believe their English writing skills are inadequate?
Mark
markpierceWhy don't more of them participate?
Dr. Frankendiesel aka Scott Running BearSpace Mouse for president!15 year veteran fire fighterCollector of Apple //e'sRunning Bear EnterprisesHistory Channel Club life member.beatus homo qui invenit sapientiam
I know what you're talking about as I've noticed this too.
Here's my idea on why many prefer to lurk and watch rather than participate.
I read a couple posts recently that upset me. One fellow asked a question about a locomotive problem and was blasted by the 2nd or 3rd poster for not telling us what manufacturer he was asking about. Well...........the subject line told everything he needed to say but the responder was either stupid or ignorant and decided to blast the guy for his assumed incompetance. I'm sure that was a turn off for the guy asking the question and many others. It turned me off!
How many times have you seen someone post a question on a specific loco, car, technique, etc only to get chastized (sp?) for buying that brand, etc.
People go here for help and expect to get good information. Some of the Senior Members with many, many posts tend to be self-righteous and get to picking on these guys and gals. Even worse, someone asks a totally different question in the middle of the discussion and sends it way off course. How about starting a new topic rather than polluting the one at hand?
I don't think the "foreigners" hold back because of language or communication problems. I've seen a lot of posts from Germany, Sweden, Italy and other places and it's obvious they aren't fluent in English but I've always been able to understand what they were asking. I commend them for participating when they aren't conversant. I speak a little Spanish and can sometimes understand what I hear but I'd NEVER consider writing or posting to a Spanish speaking forum! A lot of English speakers here need to take some lessons too...........as a matter of fact I've seen them blasted HERE for improper grammar, spelling and punctuation.
Anyway, I think a lot of people are looking for fun but get discouraged from participating when they see the crap a lot of people put out to others here. Imagine being a newbie and seeing some of the rude remarks and comments aimed at a novice. Would YOU post under those circumstances? Nah!
My 2¢..........FIRE AWAY........remember........you asked the question!
Roger Huber
I usually make it a habit to not post if I don't have a valid reason to.A lot of times I can get the info I need from reading some ones else's questions and their answers.
As for the so called elite slamming someone for their choices I think it is totally uncalled for and will definately get a reply from me,but not on the forum.
markpierce At this moment there were 45 guests and only five members at this forum. I have the impression there are many more viewers than participants viewing the forum almost all the time.
At this moment there were 45 guests and only five members at this forum. I have the impression there are many more viewers than participants viewing the forum almost all the time.
The guest/member ratio may simply be that the member is not logged in. I stalk the forums several times a day without logging in and I am sure there are others who do the same.
As to the participant part...well I have backed way off the last couple of years for a couple of reasons. One was my modeling ability being called into question a couple of times. The latest being that an engine I built and refered to as being scratch built was deemed by a few to not have been scratch built but instead just a collection of parts. This has basicaly led me to not showing much of what I do anymore here.
I doubt that this is a phenomena specific to this form. There are "lurkers", as they are called, involved in just about any and every forum that I have ever been associated with. Some people are truly just passing through, others may simply feel more comfortable participating as spectators. Often you learn a lot more by keeping the ears open and the mouth closed. So welcome "guests"!
I have figured out what is wrong with my brain! On the left side nothing works right, and on the right side there is nothing left!
I lurk on several forums. Some forums are just to hostile for me to bother with, I read them but never write. Reason being I enjoy some of the posts on those forums but since people are so belligerent I won't let my self get drawn in to senseless arguments. This forum is a nice one in contrast to some I've seen.
About posting, I generally post if I got something to add to a thread or because I want some info or show something that I've done and get compliments and constructive criticism. What I see as a problem is the amount of people who just answers any post while not really contributing. Some id fun but some is just irritating. Some of the posts are just pointless while other bring up info that was never requested or just so basic that I would assume that anyone asking a specific question within that topic probably already knows about it. This senseless posting of useless info really gets to me sometimes since it often de-rails the thread, first of I if I started the post or the OP in an other case have to write and say thanks for the info but I already know that. But that often very generic info gets the ball spinning and soon other contribute with even more basic useless info.
It's not that I don't apreciate info, I love it and I'm always grateful for it. But sometimes people should try to restrain them self's rather then showing their limited knowledge on a topic by answering something close to the question. Maybe it's my academic training that gets in the way here and I might be totally wrong.
An example of such a question could be(using a fictional one as an example):
Me: How far could a Big Boy run between it had to get new water?
A : It depends on x and x. If you can be more specific I can help. (relevant)
B : The Big Boys where the biggest engine ever, It could probably go very far!(Irrelevant)
C : No No No, I get so tired of hearing that, the C&O 2-6-6-6 was the biggest.(really really irrelevant)
D: Your both wrong, it was a Russian prototype that was built but never ran(Take a guess)
E: This is so typical of this forum, where I usually post it's full of serious modellers who don't ask these kind of questions. Why do newbies love Big boys! (unnecessary)
So this example is jokingly an attempt to say why I often only lurk on forums and don't always post. And why I think it's sometimes better to stay silent when one has nothing to ad.
Magnus(who tries his best from Sweden)
I agree with Catt - there is no reason to post if you have nothing to say. That way we reduse the amount of garbage replies here...
On the other hand - I have been a MR & Train etc subscriber for quite some time now, from mid 1980ties I guess, this is not even my 60th post here, but I have read and enjoyed this forum a lot. Often I take a look into this forum without logging in. Then I am a guest, but I do not need to brag that I am here all the time... but I have paid my fees so to say even if this is a FREE forum, and is allowed to use this forum nevertheless.
And then at last this system does not tell the truth all the time, as discussed earlier. The list of in-logged members do not reflect the real status all the time. You can be logged in, but this does not guarantees that your name is in the in-logged list. Not even the number of guests are allways true. Just ask Bergie or others that really know this system in and out.
On the other hand why has not anyone sent a picture of a BigBoy in this thread...
Greeting from a time-to-time sneaker
Guests reading this thread are no more "sneaking" that a person would be reading a book in a library is "sneaking".
I don't think this thread has an unusual participant to lurker ratio, it seems about typical for a forum based on other forums in which I have participated.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
I think it may have been a good point about just not being logged on, I assume that would show as a "visitor"?? Could be the time of year too, many modellers start in the hobby this time of year (I know my first MR was the Dec 1971 issue) so maybe these are new people checking out websites to get info about buying their first trainset (or for their kids - it works better if you say it's for 'the kids') or wanting info on how to convert the trainset to a real layout.
I always thought it a good idea to "lurk" for a while on some foorums just to get a taste of what really goes on. At least, that tends to be what newbies get told anyways.
As for the 'critic' who appears to think they know more about scratchbuilding than others do I'd just say give the critic a raspberry. I tend to think that they are just being annoying anyway---like blackflies in Algonquin Park...
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
Maybe for the same reason people drive slowly past a car accident. They are repulsed and upset but somehow cannot avert their eyes .....
Dave Nelson
I was one of the sneakers or lurkers for quite some time. The main reason was I was interested in getting involved and I was checking out the forums without signing up. I noticed quite a bit of exactly what oldline1 described. I am not nearly “at the level” of many of these people and didn’t want to get nailed because I asked a stupid question. I also have never participated in a forum before and wasn’t sure, and I’m still not totally, how the thing works. So after reading some posts where people get blasted for improper usage of stuff I was apprehensive about getting involved.
Spelling and grammar. Yes I do believe that we all should spell and use proper grammar. However this is not the place to blast someone because they don’t spell so well. Spell check or not. Most every one can understand what someone is trying to say even if u spel a werd rong. Were for where used in a sentence I can figure it out. Sometimes the common abbreviations are more difficult to understand. I once read with wonder a thread (about what escapes me) that carried on in length about the use of an apostrophe as used in relation to the “s” at the end of a word. ???? I’ll want to post to that one Many times people just type fast and fat finger the keys. Especially if you’re like me and don’t type fast but are trying to.
I’ve read where someone sends in a picture and many times someone picks it apart. Not in a helpful way, but in a “that looks horrible” way. I want to break out the camera and post for that bunch too.
We don’t all know the same stuff. Many are beginners or returners like me who really need a lot of what many refer to as basic information. I was a mechanic for my entire adult life and believe me, when you’re having problems, you’d be surprised how something simple and basic gets over looked when you’re amongst all that stuff under the hood. Sometimes the level of animosity of a forum to show my ignorance is more comfortable than the face to face experts at the LHS who feel my railroad should conform to their standards, or the “you don’t know that?” attitude. If you’re faced with that here the effect is the same, don’t return.
There is one other Forum that is not as bad as most that I have seen. But I must say this is by far the best one I have visited and that is why I chose to begin participating. Everyone seems to be eager to help someone, and always a kind word about a picture or nothing said without some sort of assistance involved kindly. No English 101 classes, and most everyone if not everyone goes by the three main rules of Model Railroading as told to me by an “old-timer” at my LHS:
1. It’s MY railroad in MY little word.
2. Not everything HAS to be prototypical
3. If you don’t like rule 2. See rule 1
There is room in this hobby for all of us.
I call the last one the “Golden Rule of Model Railroading”
I'm sure some members do visit without signing in as I do also, but this is the reason that I was a “guest” for months before signing up and a while after that before actually posting. And when I did, I did not get a rash of “it’s junk” but some real good ideas, for there really wasn’t much help anyone could give.
This forum does have some of the nicest members I’ve run across. Not saying others don’t have nice people too, they sure do. But this one doesn’t have any…. shall we say “nose in the air” people. At least none that I’ve run across. This hobby is for beginners and experts alike for without beginners, there would be no experts. Patience with the “Newbies”
Todd
Central Illinoyz
In order to keep my position as Master and Supreme Ruler of the House, I don't argue with my wife.
I'm a small town boy. A product of two people from even smaller towns. I don’t talk on topic….. I just talk.
I post fewer and fewer replies and original posts in the MR site because of some of the reasons folks have already mentioned, and my model railroading forum activity has been re-directed somewhat to other modeling forums so it takes away from my time here too. One other reason that has kept me away from the MR site and forum is the recent site redux. This must be the 4th time in the last 3 years that the site and MR forum has been "upgraded" and I actually find it less user friendly each time, and I work in the IT industry too!
Ah heck, I wasn't going to bring this up, but here goes. Just yesterday I was ready to submit a new thread on my recent backdrop work and then backed out of it because I was concerned that folks would rip it up. I guess my thick skin has thinned out a bit, in the past I did not care much if someone ripped my work, I only try to share what I have learned and have never professed to be a subject matter expert here. I may just post that thread anyway, what the heck!
I could also sum up my feelings on this matter in the quote by Plato:
"Wise men speak because they have something to say, fools because they have to say something."- Plato
So, yes, I too am guilty of doing more sneaking around and lurking than participating!
Ryan BoudreauxThe Piedmont Division Modeling The Southern Railway, Norfolk & Western & Norfolk Southern in HO during the merger eraCajun Chef Ryan
TMarsh This forum does have some of the nicest members I’ve run across. Not saying others don’t have nice people too, they sure do. But this one doesn’t have any…. shall we say “nose in the air” people. At least none that I’ve run across. This hobby is for beginners and experts alike for without beginners, there would be no experts. Patience with the “Newbies”
I agree, that we're a pretty friendly/helpful group.
Regarding the guests, I suspect that many of them are non-model railroaders who did a google search and our forums are one of the results. They clicked the link and now they are our guests. Many of them probably only stay long enough to see that we are just a discussion group and leave, I wonder if a few of them catch an interesting thread and begin their way down the model railroading path. Then there are those who lurk without logging in. Still, I suspect that most are web-surfers who happened onto us by chance.
Finally, I like the analogy to zoo animals, but I doubt that we're really that interesting to observe.
Phil, I'm not a rocket scientist; they are my students.
I lurked around the edges for quite a while, until I encountered a thread about something I felt I could contribute to. Then I signed up and joined in.
I would hardly say the guests/lurkers are 'sneaking.' After all, there is a welcome mat out for them. Today's guest might be the one who joins, then provides that one key piece of data you need to build the perfect model of (fillintheblank.)
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
I too lurked before signing up, just to be more familiar with the forum. And I still sometimes don't log on, but just read the posts to see whats interesting reading.
But sneaking? Nope. If its on the web, its there for all to see.
Guys, A lot of those "Guests " can be search bots or spam bots-these are the pesty things that leave spam in forums that keeps moderator busy keeping them in check-even with a high sitting some still manages to sneak in by using a common e addy.
Several of my friends "lurk" but,won't join in because of the-suffice to say what was already been posted.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
The discussion is interesting. I'm a member and I'm logged in but when I look at the "who's on" section I don't appear. I guess I don't exist.
Joe
TA462He posted a few questions and a few answers and was critized for his lack of grammer and spelling skills.
I will correct spelling of technical things because it makes a difference if you want to go looking for things on the internet. For example if I want information about those steps that go in the corners of freight cars and I search for "seal" steps I will find out zip. If I search for "sill" steps I will be more successful. If I am search for "Air brakes" I will be more successful than iif i were searching for "air breaks". Somebody posted a query about the "W&M" railroad. They got a half dozen replies about teh WM, Western Maryland. But what I think they wanted to know about was the N&W, Norfolk and Western railroad and they got zippo in the way of responses on the subject they wanted. Spelling can count.
I agree that criticizing people for trivial spelling or grammar errors (such as me misspelling "the" as "teh" in the previoius paragraph) is going overboard.
BRAKIEGuys, A lot of those "Guests " can be search bots or spam bots-these are the pesty things that leave spam in forums that keeps moderator busy keeping them in check-even with a high sitting some still manages to sneak in by using a common e addy.
The majority of the "guests" are bots as Larry says. Happens to all forums, at 2Guyz, there will be 3 members on and 150 guests. They are farming for e-mail addys so the can send those wonderful e-mails to you about how you can "enhancing things" and of course, lose weight, gain weight, get a free IPOD, laptop, Computer, etc.
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge but imagination."-Albert Einstein
http://gearedsteam.blogspot.com/
Maybe the guests (bots included) are just searching for a good thread to read...
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
It pains me to read posts such as the ones from people who feel safer lurking because they have either had an actual bad experience here, or because they fear one. If you are reading this, and have elected to remain a lurker for fear of being made to feel unworthy if you were to join, I give you my solemn promise that you will have me on your side, and actively involved, if you are being mistreated.
That said, there is more to everyone than meets the eye on a semi-public forum. Leaving aside all the psychology of internet behaviour (you can google it if you are interested), the fact is that anyone who posts here will be between the ages of 12-100, typically. By that time, their personalities are well established. Some are fragile, others robust. Some are confident and have lots of self-esteem, while others are timid and lack confidence. Some are gifted with self-expression, while others struggle with words generally, let alone trying to type them clearly and then post them successfully.
Then, there are the Egos. There are blowhards who pontificate and feel they have to be consulted on every single topic posted. Fortunately, they are few. Unfortunately, some of them feel it is their province to point out every error in someone else's posts, including details and presentations in imagery, and they'll even nitpick the grammar and spelling when it suits them.
Some are good-intentioned, while others are merely looking for an excuse to post contrary and scathing put-downs. Again, fortunately, they are few.
Finally, it is okay to lurk...nothing wrong with it. It is not okay, though, to fear the forum and its membership. Kalmbach Publishing most definitely does not want that reputation, nor does it intend to offer that low level of forum to its interested public. I'll wager the Company does not like the idea that some forum members feel a greater entitlement than others, and do not want to encourage that kind of thinking. That is why it has moderators, to keep the conflicts and ill-feeling to a minimum. You may not get satisfaction once a ruling has been made, but you'll be treated fairly.
The moderators are always the recourse when private communications do not resolve the differences that any two people may have with each other. And with that, I invite and welcome, on Kalmbach's behalf, anyone who wishes to register with the forum who is not already in bad standing and prohibited from doing so (we have, regrettably, a very few in number, but they exist). Between Erik, Ken, Tom, and myself, we do what we can to keep things flowing smoothly. We're approachable, including privately, as most of you know. We want to improve our service, and to make you feel welcome.
But, in the end, lurking is still perfectly okay. It's nice to have you here, even if we are not to know your name.
-Crandell
I agree with your feelings on correction dehusman. And I appreciate people like selector. I would also like to add, for those "eavesdropping" on this thread, to selectors statment on the moderators actions against evil posters. I recall as most people who frequent these forums probably do, a very mean spirited "perfect modeler" who lasted VERY shortly before they removed is membership after a recent ugly W.P.F. reply. I'll not mention his name. But I wish I could name all those who responded kindly to the poster and not so kindly to the "evil basher".
I don't think the new software forum strats are very accurate. As mentioned, a lot of times people are logged in but not listed in the stats.I lurked for quite a while before signing up. A little intimidated that my skills weren't on par with many members. Didn't know how I'd be received. Then when I finally did try and register, it took over 6 months to get an Email confirmation. I had to register 6-8 times before it was OK'd.
selector...I give you my solemn promise that you will have me on your side, and actively involved, if you are being mistreated... ...I'll wager the Company does not like the idea that some forum members feel a greater entitlement than others, and do not want to encourage that kind of thinking. That is why it has moderators, to keep the conflicts and ill-feeling to a minimum. You may not get satisfaction once a ruling has been made, but you'll be treated fairly... ...We're approachable, including privately, as most of you know. We want to improve our service, and to make you feel welcome...
...I'll wager the Company does not like the idea that some forum members feel a greater entitlement than others, and do not want to encourage that kind of thinking. That is why it has moderators, to keep the conflicts and ill-feeling to a minimum. You may not get satisfaction once a ruling has been made, but you'll be treated fairly...
...We're approachable, including privately, as most of you know. We want to improve our service, and to make you feel welcome...
Ummm....no. You forgot to mention that once any member goes against the grain, all these promises go out the window. I (and probably others) can say that there are some users here that have more privileges that some other users don't have. I'm referring to starting off topic threads, how much trash talking one person can give another person and get away with it. There are times when the bullying, harassing, and such gets out of hand and the wrong party is disciplined. As for the last point I quoted, I've tried to communicate with you, Tom, and Erik on different occassions without a peep from any of you. So I don't think that you're being truthful about your approachability. You guys may be available to your online buddies, but not with me that's for sure. Maybe new users will get a different experience, but like I said, once they don't become a "yes man" or "attaboy man" all the promises will go out the window.
TONY
"If we never take the time, how can we ever have the time." - Merovingian (Matrix Reloaded)
oldline1I know what you're talking about as I've noticed this too. Here's my idea on why many prefer to lurk and watch rather than participate. I read a couple posts recently that upset me. One fellow asked a question about a locomotive problem and was blasted by the 2nd or 3rd poster for not telling us what manufacturer he was asking about. Well...........the subject line told everything he needed to say but the responder was either stupid or ignorant and decided to blast the guy for his assumed incompetance. I'm sure that was a turn off for the guy asking the question and many others. It turned me off! How many times have you seen someone post a question on a specific loco, car, technique, etc only to get chastized (sp?) for buying that brand, etc. People go here for help and expect to get good information. Some of the Senior Members with many, many posts tend to be self-righteous and get to picking on these guys and gals. Even worse, someone asks a totally different question in the middle of the discussion and sends it way off course. How about starting a new topic rather than polluting the one at hand? I don't think the "foreigners" hold back because of language or communication problems. I've seen a lot of posts from Germany, Sweden, Italy and other places and it's obvious they aren't fluent in English but I've always been able to understand what they were asking. I commend them for participating when they aren't conversant. I speak a little Spanish and can sometimes understand what I hear but I'd NEVER consider writing or posting to a Spanish speaking forum! A lot of English speakers here need to take some lessons too...........as a matter of fact I've seen them blasted HERE for improper grammar, spelling and punctuation. Anyway, I think a lot of people are looking for fun but get discouraged from participating when they see the crap a lot of people put out to others here. Imagine being a newbie and seeing some of the rude remarks and comments aimed at a novice. Would YOU post under those circumstances? Nah! My 2¢..........FIRE AWAY........remember........you asked the question! Roger Huber
I'm not going to fire at you, I'm going to say you hit this one DEAD CENTER on the nailhead! Really, the reason I hang around here is because:
A) I hate being called a quitter
B) The weekend photo fun thread and others are great, but you have to watch out for trolls
There's another forum I'm a member of where trolls are very rare (only one on there since I've been there, and he's not an Al Mayo), and everyone gets along, belive it or not (seriously, true story). It's an n scale forum though.
This forum can get trolls all over and squbbels between members break out all over.
That's not to say there aren't good members here, but it can get very messy very quickly. The mods can not have fun, lol.
So once again, Roger hit it dead center on the reason why.
Sawyer Berry
Clemson University c/o 2018
Building a protolanced industrial park layout
Tony, what your words say to me is that, if a person finds that the moderators take issue with what a person posts, or disagree with a complaint submitted by a poster, don't expect to get action in the latter case and expect action in the former. I hope that won't come as a revelation to anyone here.
Secondly, I won't dispute that you have sent private messages to me since I became a moderator in early December of last year, and that I have not responded to even one of them. (I won't speak for the other moderators since I won't have access to their PM archives.) However, I do have a record going back to 14 Dec 07, and I can find no PM's from you to me in 20 pages of PM's accumulated over that time frame. I can't speak for emails since I don't keep those, obviously, and neither does Kalmbach log the ones submitted via their server...to the best of my knowledge.
Once again, it may simply be that the mods don't agree with a complaint. I try to make it a practise to reply to everyone who sends me a PM. I don't see one of yours to me in the past 12 months, nor do I see its logged response from me to you. It would only be over that time that I had the responsibility to do so.
Forget the zoo animals.
Folks like me tend to be like Caboose. When I show up and post something, that is the end of the thread usually.
Sometimes I lurk when there is a good thread going with lots of mining of information or learning to be done.
Ive also learned to stay out of catfights when one says that so and so's building skills are bad. Kitbashed, built from nothing or simple modifications or new uses of common model stuff is all good with me. Even those crappy MRC and Tycos have taught me tolerance and patience.
I try really hard to stay on topic if I have something to post. Otherwise I will simply look for and post a avatar of a parrot and leave it at that.
The more folks we can get sneaking about here the better. Sometimes I think back to the good old days when a troll would show up and everyone would bury that troll to page 200 in 30 minutes by posting really basic hobby stuff totally unrelated to the troll.
THEN we will see all the guests signing in to get thier shots in Yah?
Cheers.
I'm even below the armchair modeler - Recliner. ;)
All of my trains are still in moving boxes (as they've been for 10 years) awaiting the time when My sister-in-law moves out, and the computer room moves into her room. Once that happens, I'll then have the room to begin my layout - based upon the Atlas Central Midland.
As an Administrator of MaximumPC's Forums, I see about 35 to 60 guests lurking all the time.