Did y'all see this letter to the editor of MR?
"When I do buy MR, what do I find? What I find is a magazine seemingly devoted to shake-together kits and ready-to-run models....I think MR could be a great modelbuilder's magazine instead of the mediocre one it is."
What, you missed it? It's right there on page 13...of the June 1973 edition.
Some things never change...although the writer eventually got his wish on this count:
"And while I'm on the subject of valuable space, your column Student Fare is a fiasco. Kids have no place in an adult hobby, and just because a teeny-bopper lays a circle of N gauge track on top of a table and runs some ready-to-run equipment over it is no reason to print a picture of his silly railroad when the space could be used for something worthwhile--something that would interest a serious model railroader."
Clearly, the writer was no fan of dabblers.
That comment about Student Fare and younger modelers in the hobby really ticks me off... How does he think the hobby will survive without younger modelers? Is he planning on living forever??
Of course, I'm not one to be an outsider to that comment, he's basically insulting me and many of my friends...
I'll get off my soapbox now...
They actually printed that letter! Was there a response from the editor or from readers in subsequent editions?
-Crandell
I was 12 when that letter was printed and it ticks me off even now at 48! I may have been just a kid then but I had already built a couple of good looking layouts. Where the heck does he get off thinking that there's no room in the hobby for kids? Model Railroading an adults only hobby? Maybe it is somewhere in the deep recesses of the cobwebs at the back of his mind!
Dr. Frankendiesel aka Scott Running BearSpace Mouse for president!15 year veteran fire fighterCollector of Apple //e'sRunning Bear EnterprisesHistory Channel Club life member.beatus homo qui invenit sapientiam
I'd forgotten about that letter. I was a subscriber at the time (and a student), and I recall feeling that it was out of character for such a letter to appear in MR. I also recall that I agreed with the author to some extent: It did seem that the magazine included articles that really just paraphrased the instructions from a kit, and Student Fare always bugged me: Even as a student (I was a junior in high school) I wanted to know that if I submitted photos of my work that it would be selected or not selected based on the same criteria as any other modeler - I didn't want any special consideration because of my age or circumstances, but that was just me. Student Fare continued, so the overall response to it must have been favorable.
That said, I continued to subscribe to MR because it also included articles that challenged me to learn to do new things; the photography was great; columns like Bull Session were both fun and educational, and At The Throttle (Linn Westcott's editorial) was worth the cost of the subscription all by itself. Then, as now, the axiom "Different strokes for different folks" applied well to our hobby (I think that was one of Linn's topics).
Phil, I'm not a rocket scientist; they are my students.
Ya I kinda remember that I was a reader / subscriber back then. In June 1973 I would have been...let's see, carry the one...14. To be fair, the first few years of Student Fare weren't that great. A pic of a flat-top layout with RTR equipment, and a bunch of letters pretty much all like this:Hi!! My name is Bobby. I'm 12. I love trains!! If you like trains, write to me!! Bye, Bobby
Hi!! My name is Sam. I'm 9 and live in El Waco, California. I love trains!!
What'd ya expect? A 1500 word essay?
It just shows that grumpy old farts never change.
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge but imagination."-Albert Einstein
http://gearedsteam.blogspot.com/
Geared Steam It just shows that grumpy old farts never change.
"No room in the hobby for kids?"
Who let that guy of his meds?
I'm with Crandell. I am surprised they printed a letter like that.
TrainManTy That comment about Student Fare and younger modelers in the hobby really ticks me off... How does he think the hobby will survive without younger modelers? Is he planning on living forever?? Of course, I'm not one to be an outsider to that comment, he's basically insulting me and many of my friends... I'll get off my soapbox now...
And I'll step up and take your place. This guy is a completly and total numbskull. We teenage modlers can build stuff just as good as you older folks. Just look at tyler's layout, or mine, or GG's, or a host of others. And yeah, this hobby will die w/o us young guns. This guy really ticks me off!!!
the is open for whoever else wants it next.
Sawyer Berry
Clemson University c/o 2018
Building a protolanced industrial park layout
selector They actually printed that letter! Was there a response from the editor or from readers in subsequent editions? -Crandell
It's an adult hobby? When did they pass that rule. I must have missed it.
I'll be right back. I have to go tell my grandchildren they have to stay out of the train room from now on.
I suppose I can bring Thomas The Tank Engine & Hogwart's Express out to visit them once in a while while I play hobby around with the real model trains.
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
Usually those are geezers. Ignore them and enjoy the hobby. Oh, remember that when you enter geezerhood and have a lot of modeling experience.
Rich
If you ever fall over in public, pick yourself up and say “sorry it’s been a while since I inhabited a body.” And just walk away.
David,
I have to agree with Jeff and the others who were teenagers at the time of that letter -- and who are still model railroaders now. Being 16 y.o. at the time, like them I think it's a good thing we weren't offended by MR, just by the author of the letter. Talking about it now is a good reminder to try to avoid being an obnoxious old geezer, even as we chronologically sink in geezerhood.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
Because they lack the perspective of what model railroading had been in the decades leading up to when this gentleman wrote his letter to MR, many of the responders may have been a little too quick to pass judgement on him.
Back in the 30's, 40's and much of the 50's scale model railroaders consisted almost totally of very talented and skilled adults. Tinplate was considered the proper venue of teens and younger kids and MR itself often referred to HO as an "adult hobby" in its editorials, although by the 1950's it already had a considerable teen following.
The advent of inexpensive RTR locomotives by Mantua and then PennLine, followed by a flood of simple shake-the-box plastic rolling stock from various manufacturers by the late 50's, was considered a ruining of the hobby by many of the oldtimers, those who had mainly been wooden kit, or scatchbuilders of great accomplishment. Admittedly, the nature of the hobby did change very dramatically and many longtime modelers resented that alteration so it is easy to see the source of displeasure. I expect that the letter's author was one of these types.
One must understand the full scope of the hobby's history to appreciate what generates opinions expressed at specific times.
CNJ831
davidmbedard I cant believe we are getting bent out of shape from a comment made over 3 decades ago.......... David B
I cant believe we are getting bent out of shape from a comment made over 3 decades ago..........
David B
Look at the good side. Since the comment was made when I was about half my present age (allowing for the usual editorial lag) the commenter is probably dead - more likely of apoplexy than old age!
If that was his position 35 years ago, where would his indignation meter register with:
Of course, this goes right along with, "I used to walk to school in the snow - five miles - uphill both ways..." bovine excrement then, and even more so today.
Interestingly, MR used to run feature articles on custom builders who would gladly build superdetailed one-off models of any locomotive you wanted. IIRC, the lowest price mentioned was $625 (transition era dollars) for an 0-6-0T about equivalent to the Bachmann Spectrum Alco...
Let's all count our blessings and keep on piggybacking...
Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
I guess even back then you had to be fair and objective and print both sides, after all people do have opinions and even if we don't agree I guess the idea is to make us think. I wonder if he eventually changed his mind?
I was a young whipper-snapper when that comment was made; and I've worked hard for a long time since to become an old geezer! Old geezers are people too. And some of us have grandchildren who we want to share our trains with.
Midnight Railroader What, you missed it? It's right there on page 13...of the June 1973 edition.
Ty and Packers.....you are speaking in the present about an opinion quoted from over 30 years ago. If that genius was 45 years old when he wrote it, he would be 80 now, and likely gone. Don't get all fuzzed up about someone who is likely fertlizing some cemetery lawn. It's not worth it.
Packers #1 wrote:
We teenage modlers can build stuff just as good as you older folks. Just look at tyler's layout, or mine, or GG's,
Packers, no offense but do you mean to tell me that you would care to stack up your skills (that is what you meant, right) against the likes of Joe Fugate, Grampy's Trains, Aggro Jones and other veteran modelers on this board? We can ask them to place photos of their layouts and you can do the same....the fact that they are veteran modelers with vast amounts of experience would speak for itself. This is no rub against you; but experience comes only with age and much practice. Your skills aren't there yet, but you will get there.......
Packers#1We teenage modlers can build stuff just as good as you older folks.
Just look at tyler's layout, or mine, or GG's, or a host of others.
I'm 33 now but as a child I was actively involved in a large MR club and went to the O scale nationals with my parents. When I was a kid I started building models at 5 and entered my first contest at 8. At the time there was no category for kids so I entered against the adults. I won 2nd place for my wood side PFE reefer at 8. Won third place for structures/dioramas at age 10. At the club, which at the time, was the largest Oscale club in Michigan (5000 sq. ft.) I was running trains at 7 and dispatching the entire layout during open houses at age 11.
Even with all of this experience and skill there were certain geezers that hated having a kid around. I was told once that I would not be allowed to run trains anymore because if the visitors see a kid running the trains, they might think that anyone can pick up a throttle (Even though I was wearing a club hat and shirt). They later changed there mind and told me that I could run my trains and my trains alone. A few times during layout tours at the national convention, I walked into a basement to hear the owner shout "That kid better not touch anything!" across the room. At that point we just left. There were vendors at the swap meets that told me that I was not allowed to stand in front of their table unless I was with a parent.
The condescending tone in the MR article and restated loudly by Newton is detrimental to the hobby. It is the biggest reason that my son and I aren't active in a club currently and a small reason why I have not been to the Oscale national convention in many years.
There are not many kids that have the balls to post their hard work on a website and it's not fair for you, Newton, to knock them down.
(I edited this last sentence because I realized what I had said at first was rather insulting)
Check out the Deming Sub by clicking on the pics:
el-capitan There are not many kids that have the balls to post their hard work on a website and you, Newton, are a small man for knocking them down.
There are not many kids that have the balls to post their hard work on a website and you, Newton, are a small man for knocking them down.
Oh, there aren't?
Take a look around the internet,. KIds post everything, and that includes young model railroaders. They aren't afraid to put pictures of their work up for everyone to see. There are websites all over the place with photos of young people's model work.
I also got shunned when first getting into a club right after we moved. About every person looked down thier nose at me, but yet didnt know a thing about me. I had brought a plain brown box that held my motive power to run that night. You should have seen thier faces when I pulled 5 beautifully painted and detailed PFM Brass Shays out, all in thier original boxes, and 1 was the late run Pacific Coast Shay, all ran as good as they looked. I mowed 13-15 yards a week during the summer and would pick up the shays when our local dealer got some in. I am 35 now and that was back when I was 14 years old. The shays are long gone, sold to finiance other ventures. I guess they expected to see some tyco or bachmann and maybe a Athearn diesel when I opened the box. Lets just say a few attitudes changed that night, a few still looked down thier nose at me, but I still had fun. Needless to say I didnt stay at that club and found one local to where we lived. While parents do need to watch small children around display layouts and club open houses, Kids MUST be included as they and they alone are the future of our hobby. The local club had a min age of 15 to be an active member, younger ones were welcome with a parent to supervise. Most of the time, they wouldnt come with dad evey time of coase. It was my generation that breathed new life into the local club just as many of the older members all but dropped out and started doing other things or just didnt have time for it anymore. I now miss many of them, while still around they dont come to operation sessions anymore. I get both MRR and MRC, one to cover the mostly RTR stuff, ads and stuff MRR is know for, and MRC for the craftsman part of the hobby I enjoy. As I grew as a modeler, I also grew to love old craftsman kits. I would buy a handfull at the early fall train shows and have my winter projects to build. They take lots of patience, something I tend to lack, so I do a little here, a little there and over the winter, 2-5 nice freight cars get built. I haunt tables for old Kaydee or Central Valley sprung trucks for the kits. Tomorrow I go and pick up the first brass steamer I have owned in about 10 years. Keep the kids involved is what I say
LHS mechanic and geniune train and antique garden tractor nut case!
"One must understand the full scope of the hobby's history to appreciate what generates opinions expressed at specific times. "
CNJ,
I understand the the history and the why the attitude was expressed. My response is still, "Luddite".
When I was 10 years old, my Dad and I joined the Lockheed Model Railroad Club in Sunnyvale, CA. We "youthful" modelers were sent to work on projects on the layout under the direction of experienced modelers. They were patient and helpful, but also gave us a taste of the kind of disciplined behavior that caused us to alter our behavior to the extent that we understood how much we still had to learn. And not only about model railroading, but about growing up in general.
The younger modelers of today can put out a wide variety in the quality of their work, and run the spectrum in maturity and humility about their skills. But they do deserve credit for what they accomplish, and I think it is important for the older modelers to remember where they came from and for the younger group to set their sights on where they would like to get to. Each group has the opportunity to learn something here.
The late Gordon Odegaard let a younger modeler have it in the pages of Student Fare in the mid or late 70's after that reader sent in a scathing letter to MR. Gordon put the young modeler in his place, and then went on to give a short lecture to all readers on things not related to model railroading. It was a stunning, but excellent example of the many responsiblities we all have to the hobby, regardless of age. The adults need to act like adults and set the examples of modeling skills and behavior for the younger modelers to follow. That is how the hobby survives.
I was 9 at the time and had received my first Tyco set for Christmas of 72. Although my dad was a model railroader and I know we had that issue, but I don't remember it. If I didn't do away with all of the back issues this past summer, I would look it up.
But I will say, the first part of the letter does apply today. That is why I subscribe to RMC.
Trynn_Allen2 "One must understand the full scope of the hobby's history to appreciate what generates opinions expressed at specific times. " CNJ, I understand the the history and the why the attitude was expressed. My response is still, "Luddite".
Okay, I'll bite.
"Luddite" means one who is opposed to technological change.
How does that apply here?
4merroad4man The younger modelers of today can put out a wide variety in the quality of their work, and run the spectrum in maturity and humility about their skills.
The younger modelers of today can put out a wide variety in the quality of their work, and run the spectrum in maturity and humility about their skills.
The same can be said of older modelers.
marknewtonPackers#1We teenage modlers can build stuff just as good as you older folks. Sorry, no, you can't. You don't have the skills, knowledge or expertise that only comes with years of experience. Just look at tyler's layout, or mine, or GG's, or a host of others. I don't say this to hurt your feelings, but none of these examples are as good as the stuff built by us "older folks". Mark.