Well said! When any one of us decides that they have reached a place where they need go no further, it is time for a drastic change....to darts or engine repair, maybe horse racing. Bearing in mind that talent counts for a lot in this hobby, and that some of us have it in abundance while others struggle visibly (always an opinion, isn't it?), it would be foolish to think that spending time and developing both skills and knowledge count for little in a hobby steeped in history. Every great artist (hold on, Mark, I'm not finished! ) would tell you that they got better as they went along, and one way they got better was in educating their eye. They see things they didn't see before, and they can point to their work and show you its manifestation. This hobby is about the confluence of many skills, and while some of us come to the hobby greatly accomplished in one or more areas, we don't come highly skilled in all the ones that must be well developed to build a wonderful layout. We're short on history, or short on wood work, or...we don't have it all. But we can, if we are determined and halfways intelligent, get there in time.
There is an old Latin aphorism: Qui non proficit deficit. "Who does not advance falls behind." Each of us must continue to move forward, even if a little, or we begin to lose ground while those around us keep plugging away.
-Crandell
This is absolutely disgusting. Who here has a massive self confidence problem and feels the need to belittle teens in order to make themselves feel better..... I am not longer a teen (20 now) but I still think that those of you who try to put down younger people for being involved in the hobby( and saying your better than them is definitely a put down), are completely and utterly devoid of any common sense. Milwaukee Road, your actually engaging in a p*ssing contest with a teen.... And your how old? You have got to be kidding me. I have always found, in my short stay here, that this place is very nurturing in terms of answering some dumb questions that I have asked. I cannot for the life of me believe that some of you actually are saying, on a public forum that your better than kids. Im completely in awe. Ty, and everyone else including me, are in this hobby because its fun, not because we are trying to compete with 40-70 year old people. GrampysTrains is an inspiration to everyone, with what he can do, and then people like you try and compare our skills with such a master as him, as if that is going to provide any leverage that your so superior to us. We have tons of learning to do, and we understand that. However, we would rather learn with someone who is willing to show us the right way, as opposed to comparing their work with ours, for no other reason than to run our hopes and dreams into the ground. No offense to you, but your argument makes you look like a complete and utter idiot.Its funny that you said "the teens comment was rude". Why? Because he spoke his opinion right back to you? Get used to it, if your going to post this kind of BS on a forum that I thought was so much about fun and enjoyment of the hobby. Your a disgrace.
Disgusted.
alexP
Trynn_Allen2"One must understand the full scope of the hobby's history to appreciate what generates opinions expressed at specific times. " CNJ, I understand the the history and the why the attitude was expressed. My response is still, "Luddite".
"One must understand the full scope of the hobby's history to appreciate what generates opinions expressed at specific times. "
CNJ,
I understand the the history and the why the attitude was expressed. My response is still, "Luddite".
TrainManTy I'm not really thinking perfectly clearly right now, as I don't particularly it when people directly insult me and my friends, even when say that they "don't say this to hurt your feelings"
I will bow out of this thread now, as I probably don't have the "skills, knowledge or expertise that only comes with years of experience" to continue...
TrainManTyAnd this proves that, even though that letter was printed 35 years ago, that attitude still exists among some of us today.
el-capitanMidnight Railroader No, it doesn't. Your response, however, proves that the "everyone's a winner no matter how well they play" attitude has taken solid hold. That is not how I interpreted his comment at all. The original comment by Newton implies that you must be an adult to be a good modeler. This is absurd. I have seen great stuff from some kids and junk from some adults.
Midnight Railroader No, it doesn't. Your response, however, proves that the "everyone's a winner no matter how well they play" attitude has taken solid hold.
No, it doesn't.
Your response, however, proves that the "everyone's a winner no matter how well they play" attitude has taken solid hold.
That is not how I interpreted his comment at all.
The original comment by Newton implies that you must be an adult to be a good modeler. This is absurd. I have seen great stuff from some kids and junk from some adults.
Packers#1 What's a real shame is that ya'll are so blind w/ feeling superior to us teens, you won't open your eyes and accept that we can be right up there w/ ya'll.
What's a real shame is that ya'll are so blind w/ feeling superior to us teens, you won't open your eyes and accept that we can be right up there w/ ya'll.
selector...Every great artist (hold on, Mark, I'm not finished! ) would tell you that they got better as they went along...
...Every great artist (hold on, Mark, I'm not finished! ) would tell you that they got better as they went along...
marknewtonI made a simple statement of fact, as I see it.
Hey Mark,
One thing. You stated your opinion. Having one does not make it a fact.
Another thing. Ease up on the young folks a bit. Without young modelers coming into the hobby the hobby will be dead in the water in no time. This thread is doing little to encourage young people to take up the hobby.
marknewtonGood idea, if you can't distinguish the difference between a general observation about skill levels and an insult. Or do you seriously maintain that your skills after, say, 5 years in the hobby, are as well developed and multi-faceted as those of someone with 45 years in the hobby?
Lastly. The way one person takes the comments of another is a personal thing. Lots of peoples feelings are hurt in these forums everyday by people who did not intend their words to be taken as insults, but it still happens. If you wanted to apologize for any misunderstanding of what you meant that's cool but it seems like that is not what you want to do. Rather it seems you want to be sure to insult the lad now. I don't recall any of the teens stating that their skills were equal or better than those of someone with 45 years experience in the hobby as you suggest.
Honestly. Considering the what...50+ years life experience you have, you would think you could be a little more tolerant of the younger crowd. I think these teens have conducted themselves in a fairly admirable manner. I can't say the same for some of the adults who have contributed to this thread.
el-capitanI'm 33 now but as a child I was actively involved in a large MR club and went to the O scale nationals with my parents. When I was a kid I started building models at 5 and entered my first contest at 8. At the time there was no category for kids so I entered against the adults. I won 2nd place for my wood side PFE reefer at 8. Won third place for structures/dioramas at age 10. At the club, which at the time, was the largest Oscale club in Michigan (5000 sq. ft.) I was running trains at 7 and dispatching the entire layout during open houses at age 11.
I'm 33 now but as a child I was actively involved in a large MR club and went to the O scale nationals with my parents. When I was a kid I started building models at 5 and entered my first contest at 8. At the time there was no category for kids so I entered against the adults. I won 2nd place for my wood side PFE reefer at 8. Won third place for structures/dioramas at age 10. At the club, which at the time, was the largest Oscale club in Michigan (5000 sq. ft.) I was running trains at 7 and dispatching the entire layout during open houses at age 11.
The condescending tone in the MR article and restated loudly by Newton is detrimental to the hobby.
There are not many kids that have the balls to post their hard work on a website and you, Newton, are a small man for knocking them down.
davidmbedard David B
David B
Are you having fun David? Hope that is low fat butter or you are going to need Jenny Craig!
el-capitanThe condescending tone in the MR article and restated loudly by Newton is detrimental to the hobby. It is the biggest reason that my son and I aren't active in a club currently and a small reason why I have not been to the Oscale national convention in many years. There are not many kids that have the balls to post their hard work on a website and it's not fair for you, Newton, to knock them down. (I edited this last sentence because I realized what I had said at first was rather insulting)
The condescending tone in the MR article and restated loudly by Newton is detrimental to the hobby. It is the biggest reason that my son and I aren't active in a club currently and a small reason why I have not been to the Oscale national convention in many years.
There are not many kids that have the balls to post their hard work on a website and it's not fair for you, Newton, to knock them down.
(I edited this last sentence because I realized what I had said at first was rather insulting)
I think you have stated things rather clearly. Had Mr. Newton not quoted your original post I would not have known what you said. Sure it might have been a bit insulting, but under these circumstances, I couldn't agree more.
davidmbedardNah.....the buttery goodness is worth the extra few inches......David B
Nah.....the buttery goodness is worth the extra few inches......
BlueHillsCPRI think you have stated things rather clearly. Had Mr. Newton not quoted your original post I would not have known what you said. Sure it might have been a bit insulting, but under these circumstances, I couldn't agree more.
It strikes me that some of the ire we are experiencing on this thread is due to a disparity in literacy. I say this knowing that it might inflame things...I hope that folks will just try to understand my point, and then either agree or disagree, openly or to themselves, without using invective if being open about it. In the computer age, we tend to skim things and often misread or misinterpret what was written. There is a professor at Tufts University who is actively working on research about how our brains get rewired by using personal information devices and by spending long hours at the computer...we impatiently skim and don't often do the deeper thinking and reading that is required.
Kevin alludes to this in his post just now...not having seen what he obviously feels, in retrospect, is a message that is important to his point of view on the subject.
FWIW, I will state openly that, while Mark's opinions are forceful, and directly stated in blunt terms, there is nothing offensive about them. If his expression of disagreement with opinions stated in this thread leave you angry or without a reasoned response, then it would be best to say nothing. But, resorting to finger-pointing and invoking the word "insult" does, I'll agree with him, suggest that folks are on a weak footing with their own positions, and should either retrench and find a more convincing way of making their point, or yield to him. Hopefully that would include trying harder to understand his views. Simply disagreeing, and telling him that his views are insulting, no matter how he couches it, is not going to win points here.
Reason, please, not recourse to the mods.
BlueHillsCPR,
Perhaps you should return to Page 1 and actually read the posts....here is a copy of what our young member Packers#1 said regarding his and other teens talents:
"We teenage modlers can build stuff just as good as you older folks. Just look at tyler's layout, or mine, or GG's, or a host of others."
Packers#1 is the one that fired the first shot in this mess, claiming that his skills are on equal grounds with all of the members here. He has then interpreted the following remarks to mean that the older modelers are better people than he is. Not true; the older modelers are trying to get him to understand that at present date, his skills are not equal to the older modelers with more experience. To make such a bold claim only helps to fan the flames of the fire.....
Don Z.
Research; it's not just for geeks.
marknewton I believe that an experienced modeller will usually be better than an inexperienced one.
I believe that an experienced modeller will usually be better than an inexperienced one.
That may be what you believe but not what you said. You said:
marknewton Sorry, no, you can't. You don't have the skills, knowledge or expertise that only comes with years of experience.
Sorry, no, you can't. You don't have the skills, knowledge or expertise that only comes with years of experience.
This statement appears condescending because you seem to be basing it only on the fact that he is a teenager, nothing else. If you are basing it on more, please let me know what you are basing it on.
marknewton If you think that's condescending, you need to grow a thicker skin, or at least think a bit before you reply. I think it's interesting that you took offence to a comment that was not remotely directed at you, since you're presumably not a teenager?
If you think that's condescending, you need to grow a thicker skin, or at least think a bit before you reply. I think it's interesting that you took offence to a comment that was not remotely directed at you, since you're presumably not a teenager?
I don't even know where to begin responding to this gem.
Check out the Deming Sub by clicking on the pics:
marknewtonPackers#1 What's a real shame is that ya'll are so blind w/ feeling superior to us teens, you won't open your eyes and accept that we can be right up there w/ ya'll. I have no strong feelings for or against you "teens", I just take them as I find them. There's a young bloke I know who has just won the AALS Junior Trophy for his beautiful 5" gauge live steamer - I have no trouble accepting him as an accomplished modeller. But respect, or acceptance in this case, has to be earned, not demanded.
Mark:
What I meant by that is that ya'll shouldn't write us off the board as good just because we're young. I know that respect has to be earned, that's the way of life. I probably shoulda added that we can be as good as the AVERAGE modler. Like i said earlier, guys like Joe and grampys and Aggro are wAY better than me.
Sawyer Berry
Clemson University c/o 2018
Building a protolanced industrial park layout
BlueHillsCPRHey Mark,One thing. You stated your opinion. Having one does not make it a fact.
Another thing. Ease up on the young folks a bit. Without young modelers coming into the hobby the hobby will be dead in the water in no time.
Lastly. The way one person takes the comments of another is a personal thing. Lots of peoples feelings are hurt in these forums everyday by people who did not intend their words to be taken as insults, but it still happens. If you wanted to apologize for any misunderstanding of what you meant that's cool but it seems like that is not what you want to do.
Rather it seems you want to be sure to insult the lad now. I don't recall any of the teens stating that their skills were equal or better than those of someone with 45 years experience in the hobby as you suggest.
Honestly. Considering the what...50+ years life experience you have, you would think you could be a little more tolerant of the younger crowd.
marknewtonBut respect, or acceptance in this case, has to be earned, not demanded.
But respect, or acceptance in this case, has to be earned, not demanded.
Acceptance among what? This forum? This hobby? I didn't know I needed permission from anybody to enjoy model railroading. Please clarify what you meant by this.
Don Z BlueHillsCPR, Perhaps you should return to Page 1 and actually read the posts....here is a copy of what our young member Packers#1 said regarding his and other teens talents: "We teenage modlers can build stuff just as good as you older folks. Just look at tyler's layout, or mine, or GG's, or a host of others." Packers#1 is the one that fired the first shot in this mess, claiming that his skills are on equal grounds with all of the members here. He has then interpreted the following remarks to mean that the older modelers are better people than he is. Not true; the older modelers are trying to get him to understand that at present date, his skills are not equal to the older modelers with more experience. To make such a bold claim only helps to fan the flames of the fire..... Don Z.
Well, to rehash what I've since stated in 3 or 4 posts, I was referring to the AVERAGE modeler. Now can we please quit nagging me about that. My lord!
TrainManTy marknewton But respect, or acceptance in this case, has to be earned, not demanded. Acceptance among what? This forum? This hobby? I didn't know I needed permission from anybody to enjoy model railroading. Please clarify what you meant by this.
marknewton But respect, or acceptance in this case, has to be earned, not demanded.
I think he meant (correct me if I'm wrong mark) that we have to earn our acceptance as a model railroading great or something like grampys or joe or Aggro (they sure pop up in this conversation a lot, don't they?). I think repect also channels into here. Like I said, I agree, you have to earn it. However, we ain't asking for it, just not come out and Dis-respect us (which doesn't happen a WHOLE lot, but still a little on here).
davidmbedard .....twas a bit thirsty!. Keep it up guys, I am enjoying this! David B
.....twas a bit thirsty!.
Keep it up guys, I am enjoying this!
Glad to see you like pepsi. i'm actually enjoying this too, I love me a good argument, it's just like Social studies class last year, lol, but instead of talking about something for social studies, we're talking about a comment made in a mag about a quarter-century ago (2008-1973=25, right?). I especially love arguing my point. You eating Orville Redenbacker Popcorn, David, or something else?
Packers#1we're talking about a comment made in a mag about a quarter-century ago (2008-1973=25, right?).
Dr. Frankendiesel aka Scott Running BearSpace Mouse for president!15 year veteran fire fighterCollector of Apple //e'sRunning Bear EnterprisesHistory Channel Club life member.beatus homo qui invenit sapientiam
jeffrey-wimberly Packers#1we're talking about a comment made in a mag about a quarter-century ago (2008-1973=25, right?). Add 10 to that. 35 years.
My bad. hey, i do have an 89 in math, lol.
marknewtonSince you don't know me from a bar of soap, you wouldn't know how I regard the "younger crowd". You wouldn't know about the bus trip I recently helped organise for a group of young railfans and modellers to visit a tourist railway up the coast from here.
marknewtonYou wouldn't know about the group of young members at my tramway museum whom we mentor, or the young friend of the family whom I helped get an apprenticeship with the railway I work for, so please don't presume to lecture me about being tolerant.
As for not knowing you from a bar of soap, judging by your attitude here, I'm not terribly sorry about that.
As for lecturing, you've got it all wrong. If I were to presume to lecture you I would want it to be in person. This was no more than a reminder, however pointless, to act your age.
I hope these kids you mention have the opportunity to see your behavior toward this group of kids as well as the role you played for them.
What a pelican!
Don ZBlueHillsCPR, Perhaps you should return to Page 1 and actually read the posts....here is a copy of what our young member Packers#1 said regarding his and other teens talents: "We teenage modlers can build stuff just as good as you older folks. Just look at tyler's layout, or mine, or GG's, or a host of others." Packers#1 is the one that fired the first shot in this mess, claiming that his skills are on equal grounds with all of the members here. He has then interpreted the following remarks to mean that the older modelers are better people than he is. Not true; the older modelers are trying to get him to understand that at present date, his skills are not equal to the older modelers with more experience. To make such a bold claim only helps to fan the flames of the fire..... Don Z.
Don,
Packers#1 did not say that he and his friends could model as well as all of the members here. You read that into his statement. He did however say that, and I quote, "We teenage modlers can build stuff just as good as you older folks."
Speaking as an older folk, I have to agree that he and his friends can build stuff just as good as I can.
Why is it that you and Mark, and some other older folks have to jump on these kids for enjoying the hobby and believing that they are good modelers. Isn't it enough that you are so skilled and experienced? Do you have to take issue at an offhand comment made by a teenager? He didn't mean anything by it and has said so a number of times now. Isn't it time to let it go?
This is one of those threads that should have been locked after the first post but the moderation here continues to mystify me at times. I should have posted a promo for the evil competitor...maybe I could have got the whole thread deleted that way!
Another well-placed post. Thanks, David.
davidmbedard One last thing. I can draw a parallel with Driving. 18 year old drivers think they are great drivers. None are as good as they will be 12 years down the road.......think about it.
One last thing. I can draw a parallel with Driving. 18 year old drivers think they are great drivers. None are as good as they will be 12 years down the road.......think about it.
True, but can you say absolutely that all 30 year old drivers are better than all 18 year old drivers?
This is the point I am getting at, you can't say absolutely that a teenager with 5 years experience is a worse modeler than one with 25 yrs experience.
I know guys that have 40 years of experience in modeleing that I won't let near my layout while my 7 year old son runs it like a pro.
heres a pic of the reefer that I built at 8 years old from an all-nation kit. I did everything from gluing the wood to airbrushing the parts. It's still on my layout, minus one brake wheel.
Now here is a (poor quality) pic from the 1984 O scale national convention in Indianapolis. It shows the winners from all of the categories of the model contest. I would be the short guy in front. Not shown: All the geezers that lost.
I guess age does not always equal experience does not equal a better modeler.
I just hate telling anybody "No, you can't."
el-capitan This is the point I am getting at, you can't say absolutely that a teenager with 5 years experience is a worse modeler than one with 25 yrs experience. I know guys that have 40 years of experience in modeleing that I won't let near my layout while my 7 year old son runs it like a pro. heres a pic of the reefer that I built at 8 years old from an all-nation kit. I did everything from gluing the wood to airbrushing the parts. It's still on my layout, minus one brake wheel.
In comparison, here is a picture of modelling done by Packers#1.
Photo was posted in the Weekend Photo Fun thread about three weeks ago.
Stein, who makes no claim about being a good (or even average) modeller - I am an utter novice, still learning, despite having a few grey hairs