It is also used in popular culture to refer to people who don't keep up and just can't stand changes going on around them.
In this case it was pretty obvious that the original author of the letter was pretty much a Luddite. Personally as someone who has to stay on top of the ever changing technology as fast as it is applied to my profession, I encounter a lot of people (younger and older than myself) who refuse. Hence my derisive attitude.
Trynn_Allen2 It is also used in popular culture to refer to people who don't keep up and just can't stand changes going on around them.
Sorry, I don't buy that. If you ask ten random people on the street what the word means, I don't think one will have the correct answer. Maybe if you ask 20, one might know.
Midnight Railroader Sorry, I don't buy that. If you ask ten random people on the street what the word means, I don't think one will have the correct answer. Maybe if you ask 20, one might know.
Fair enough would you rather I have called the author something else? I could think of many explitives and descriptions which I am sure that the Kalmbach forum mods would probably rather I not post. But as a someone who does take the time to work with kids in the hobby, who does try and get them more involved in modeling and operations, the author is at best a fogey, probably a curmudgeon, and is, politely, a social luddite. Of course that's my opinion, and your welcome to critize it and the word choice, but it still won't change the opinion or sentiment
marknewtonPackers#1We teenage modlers can build stuff just as good as you older folks. Sorry, no, you can't. You don't have the skills, knowledge or expertise that only comes with years of experience. Just look at tyler's layout, or mine, or GG's, or a host of others. I don't say this to hurt your feelings, but none of these examples are as good as the stuff built by us "older folks". Mark.
Packers#1We teenage modlers can build stuff just as good as you older folks.
Just look at tyler's layout, or mine, or GG's, or a host of others.
...And this proves that, even though that letter was printed 35 years ago, that attitude still exists among some of us today...
TrainManTy marknewtonPackers#1We teenage modlers can build stuff just as good as you older folks. Sorry, no, you can't. You don't have the skills, knowledge or expertise that only comes with years of experience. Just look at tyler's layout, or mine, or GG's, or a host of others. I don't say this to hurt your feelings, but none of these examples are as good as the stuff built by us "older folks". Mark. ...And this proves that, even though that letter was printed 35 years ago, that attitude still exists among some of us today...
No, it doesn't.
Your response, however, proves that the "everyone's a winner no matter how well they play" attitude has taken solid hold.
One thing I can say from experience is that no matter how good you are, no matter how finely honed your skills, there's always someone better or who THINKS they're better.
Dr. Frankendiesel aka Scott Running BearSpace Mouse for president!15 year veteran fire fighterCollector of Apple //e'sRunning Bear EnterprisesHistory Channel Club life member.beatus homo qui invenit sapientiam
Trynn_Allen2 Midnight Railroader Sorry, I don't buy that. If you ask ten random people on the street what the word means, I don't think one will have the correct answer. Maybe if you ask 20, one might know. Fair enough would you rather I have called the author something else? I could think of many explitives and descriptions which I am sure that the Kalmbach forum mods would probably rather I not post. But as a someone who does take the time to work with kids in the hobby, who does try and get them more involved in modeling and operations, the author is at best a fogey, probably a curmudgeon, and is, politely, a social luddite. Of course that's my opinion, and your welcome to critize it and the word choice, but it still won't change the opinion or sentiment
You're welcome to your opinion. I just get picky about words. They have specific meanings.
That's all.
Midnight RailroaderTrainManTy marknewtonPackers#1We teenage modlers can build stuff just as good as you older folks. Sorry, no, you can't. You don't have the skills, knowledge or expertise that only comes with years of experience. Just look at tyler's layout, or mine, or GG's, or a host of others. I don't say this to hurt your feelings, but none of these examples are as good as the stuff built by us "older folks". Mark. ...And this proves that, even though that letter was printed 35 years ago, that attitude still exists among some of us today... No, it doesn't. Your response, however, proves that the "everyone's a winner no matter how well they play" attitude has taken solid hold.
Maybe you're right. That's just my view on it, it makes sense to me, but maybe not to you. I'm not really thinking perfectly clearly right now, as I don't particularly it when people directly insult me and my friends, even when say that they "don't say this to hurt your feelings"
I will bow out of this thread now, as I probably don't have the "skills, knowledge or expertise that only comes with years of experience" to continue...
Midnight Railroader No, it doesn't. Your response, however, proves that the "everyone's a winner no matter how well they play" attitude has taken solid hold.
That is not how I interpreted his comment at all.
The original comment by Newton implies that you must be an adult to be a good modeler. This is absurd. I have seen great stuff from some kids and junk from some adults.
Check out the Deming Sub by clicking on the pics:
TrainManTy Maybe you're right. That's just my view on it, it makes sense to me, but maybe not to you. I'm not really thinking perfectly clearly right now, as I don't particularly it when people directly insult me and my friends, even when say that they "don't say this to hurt your feelings" I will bow out of this thread now, as I probably don't have the "skills, knowledge or expertise that only comes with years of experience" to continue...
See, that's the problem. We're teaching people that everyone's already a winner and every kid gets a trophy so we don't injure thier self-esteem..
So when a modeler with superior skills correctly says you have a way to go, you become insulted and have hurt feelings instead of simply admitting that he's right, and then go on to develop those skills and actually get to that high level of achievement.
jeffrey-wimberly One thing I can say from experience is that no matter how good you are, no matter how finely honed your skills, there's always someone better or who THINKS they're better.
I seen modelers with inflated ego come crashing down when the "new kid on the block" struts his stuff.Its never changes.
I entered a switching contest once and showed a local prototypical operation "expert" how it was done.Needless to say he was not happy being out "switch" by a broken down wreck of a old has been brakeman...I had 7 less moves.
My prize? A Athearn 40 foot boxcar kit.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Midnight Railroader See, that's the problem. We're teaching people that everyone's already a winner and every kid gets a trophy so we don't injure thier self-esteem.. So when a modeler with superior skills correctly says you have a way to go, you become insulted and have hurt feelings instead of simply admitting that he's right, and then go on to develop those skills and actually get to that high level of achievement.
I agree with you. My son's hockey league will not show the a goal deficite on the scoreboard of more than five. So if he is getting his butt handed to him and losing 10-1, the scoreboard will say 6-1. This is ridiculous. However, if soembody was to come out and say that they cannot be good hockey players because they are kids, then I have a problem with it.
Midnight Railroader TrainManTy Maybe you're right. That's just my view on it, it makes sense to me, but maybe not to you. I'm not really thinking perfectly clearly right now, as I don't particularly it when people directly insult me and my friends, even when say that they "don't say this to hurt your feelings" I will bow out of this thread now, as I probably don't have the "skills, knowledge or expertise that only comes with years of experience" to continue... See, that's the problem. We're teaching people that everyone's already a winner and every kid gets a trophy so we don't injure thier self-esteem.. So when a modeler with superior skills correctly says you have a way to go, you become insulted and have hurt feelings instead of simply admitting that he's right, and then go on to develop those skills and actually get to that high level of achievement.
Nothing new there..It was the same years ago when I was a teen..Of course back then the folks was more brutal in telling you that..Yes my feelings was hurt but,I went on to do better the next time and the next.
4merroad4man Packers #1 wrote: We teenage modlers can build stuff just as good as you older folks. Just look at tyler's layout, or mine, or GG's, Packers, no offense but do you mean to tell me that you would care to stack up your skills (that is what you meant, right) against the likes of Joe Fugate, Grampy's Trains, Aggro Jones and other veteran modelers on this board? We can ask them to place photos of their layouts and you can do the same....the fact that they are veteran modelers with vast amounts of experience would speak for itself. This is no rub against you; but experience comes only with age and much practice. Your skills aren't there yet, but you will get there.......
Packers #1 wrote:
We teenage modlers can build stuff just as good as you older folks. Just look at tyler's layout, or mine, or GG's,
Packers, no offense but do you mean to tell me that you would care to stack up your skills (that is what you meant, right) against the likes of Joe Fugate, Grampy's Trains, Aggro Jones and other veteran modelers on this board? We can ask them to place photos of their layouts and you can do the same....the fact that they are veteran modelers with vast amounts of experience would speak for itself. This is no rub against you; but experience comes only with age and much practice. Your skills aren't there yet, but you will get there.......
Heck no. What I meant was we are just as good as the AVERAGE modeler, not like Grampys or Joe or Aggro.
Sawyer Berry
Clemson University c/o 2018
Building a protolanced industrial park layout
TrainManTyMaybe you're right. That's just my view on it, it makes sense to me, but maybe not to you. I'm not really thinking perfectly clearly right now, as I don't particularly like it when people directly insult me and my friends, even when say that they "don't say this to hurt your feelings"I will bow out of this thread now, as I probably don't have the "skills, knowledge or expertise that only comes with years of experience" to continue...
Maybe you're right. That's just my view on it, it makes sense to me, but maybe not to you. I'm not really thinking perfectly clearly right now, as I don't particularly like it when people directly insult me and my friends, even when say that they "don't say this to hurt your feelings"
Being one of the "older and wiser" modelers I have to say...
WELL SAID!
Age has little or nothing to do with talent or experience. Both are a very individual thing.
The thing is with some "older modelers" our eyesight and/or insight is failing making some of us unable to see our own failings as well as we should be able to.
Yep. Years of experience might help, but teens can have just as much (or more) talent as you old guys in your 50s and 60s. What's a real shame is that ya'll are so blind w/ feeling superior to us teens, you won't open your eyes and accept that we can be right up there w/ ya'll.
Surely the logic of TrainManTy's belief means that he's as good as he's going to get. If my output as a 49 year-old hadn't improved in the 30 years since I've been a teenager, I'd be a worried man. I may have thought it was good, but looking back? Dearie me.
As Bill Gates was supposed to have commented: "Your school may have done away with winners and losers, but life HAS NOT. In some schools they may have abolished failing grades and they's give you as many times as you want to get the right answer. This doesn't bear the slightest resemblance to ANYTHING in real life."
You've still got some learning and growing to do, son. Just like we all had.
Brian
Midnight RailroaderTrainManTy Maybe you're right. That's just my view on it, it makes sense to me, but maybe not to you. I'm not really thinking perfectly clearly right now, as I don't particularly it when people directly insult me and my friends, even when say that they "don't say this to hurt your feelings" I will bow out of this thread now, as I probably don't have the "skills, knowledge or expertise that only comes with years of experience" to continue... See, that's the problem. We're teaching people that everyone's already a winner and every kid gets a trophy so we don't injure thier self-esteem.. So when a modeler with superior skills correctly says you have a way to go, you become insulted and have hurt feelings instead of simply admitting that he's right, and then go on to develop those skills and actually get to that high level of achievement.
I never said they were wrong. I know my skills aren't up there with Grampy and Aggro and Joe Fugate, but then again, most of us aren't up there. You're comparing us to the hobby masters, who many of us (myself included) admire and know their skills are highly superior to our own.
So, my skills aren't up there with the masters, and maybe they're downright poor. But... WHO CARES??? This hobby is supposed to be just that: a hobby! I don't model railroad so I can get really good about it and brag about my skills, I model railroad because it's FUN!
I'm not upset about this; my self-esteem is fine. I'm just indignant about how people treat teens like me and many of my friends...
TrainManTy Midnight Railroader TrainManTy Maybe you're right. That's just my view on it, it makes sense to me, but maybe not to you. I'm not really thinking perfectly clearly right now, as I don't particularly it when people directly insult me and my friends, even when say that they "don't say this to hurt your feelings" I will bow out of this thread now, as I probably don't have the "skills, knowledge or expertise that only comes with years of experience" to continue... See, that's the problem. We're teaching people that everyone's already a winner and every kid gets a trophy so we don't injure thier self-esteem.. So when a modeler with superior skills correctly says you have a way to go, you become insulted and have hurt feelings instead of simply admitting that he's right, and then go on to develop those skills and actually get to that high level of achievement. I never said they were wrong. I know my skills aren't up there with Grampy and Aggro and Joe Fugate, but then again, most of us aren't up there. You're comparing us to the hobby masters, who many of us (myself included) admire and know their skills are highly superior to our own. So, my skills aren't up there with the masters, and maybe they're downright poor. But... WHO CARES??? This hobby is supposed to be just that: a hobby! I don't model railroad so I can get really good about it and brag about my skills, I model railroad because it's FUN! I'm not upset about this; my self-esteem is fine. I'm just indignant about how people treat teens like me and many of my friends...
Ditto. they are masters. Midnight railroader, here's my question: Would you put yourself up there w/ them? Because if the answer is no, then why are you comparing US w/ them if you be in the same comparison as us: not as good as them? And ditto,t his is for the fun of it. If someone was completly happy w/ a circle of track and RTR equipment and that's how good they wanted to get, then that's them, and you have no place to bring them down. Oh, and teaching that everyone's a winner, I'm w/ you there, everyone gets so scared of hurting someone's feelings. However, it still ain't a good thing to do. But, you shouldn't put someone down when you would be in the same pool as them, so to speak. But hey, if you are up there w/ Grampy and Aggro and Joe, then whatever, you can.
Packers#1 Ditto. they are masters. Midnight railroader, here's my question: Would you put yourself up there w/ them? Because if the answer is no, then why are you comparing US w/ them if you be in the same comparison as us: not as good as them? And ditto,t his is for the fun of it. If someone was completly happy w/ a circle of track and RTR equipment and that's how good they wanted to get, then that's them, and you have no place to bring them down. Oh, and teaching that everyone's a winner, I'm w/ you there, everyone gets so scared of hurting someone's feelings. However, it still ain't a good thing to do. But, you shouldn't put someone down when you would be in the same pool as them, so to speak. But hey, if you are up there w/ Grampy and Aggro and Joe, then whatever, you can.
I don't know if my skills are as good as theirs, but as was pointed out above, if my modeling was not improved as a 42-year-old over what it was as a 16-year-old, then there wouldn''t be much point in continuing. Even so, after doing this for over 35 years, I am still learning and growing.
My point is that, when a very good modeler (Newton) correctly observes that the teens who were offered as examples have a way to go before they reach the level of the masters listed here, it would be better for those teens to accept that fact and work toward improving instead of becoming angry and insulted.
Tyler,I will put my operating skills up against the best.I can sit down with the best of 'em and talk prototypical layout design and operation..I can sit down with the best and talk about believability in freelancing a railroad.
If you know the difference between a SIECO and a PC&F boxcar you are better then me.If you can wire a toggle switch you know more then me..If you can tell the difference between a SD50 and SD60 without checking numbers your better.
See how it works? We all have our niches that we shine in and that includes "experts" of all stripes..
Packers#1 Heck no. What I meant was we are just as good as the AVERAGE modeler, not like Grampys or Joe or Aggro.
Then why didn't you say that to start with. Would've saved a whole lot of confusion.......
SOU FanmarknewtonPackers#1We teenage modlers can build stuff just as good as you older folks. Sorry, no, you can't. You don't have the skills, knowledge or expertise that only comes with years of experience. Just look at tyler's layout, or mine, or GG's, or a host of others. I don't say this to hurt your feelings, but none of these examples are as good as the stuff built by us "older folks". Mark. But we can get close......
el-capitanThe same can be said of older modelers
4merroad4manel-capitanThe same can be said of older modelers Agreed. Just look on any Weekend Photo Fun........
4merroad4man Packers#1 Heck no. What I meant was we are just as good as the AVERAGE modeler, not like Grampys or Joe or Aggro. Then why didn't you say that to start with. Would've saved a whole lot of confusion.......
my fault. I was thinking it and thought that everyone else would know. My fault, I'm sorry.
Packers#1my fault. I was thinking it and thought that everyone else would know. My fault, I'm sorry.
davidmbedard David B
David B
Possibly I could close this topic with a couple of thoughts.
I have enjoy this hobby since the early fiftys and still do so today.
I remember MR since they were the small sized booklet form of publication, but that said and being somewhat of a "Geezer"( I turned 68 yesterday) I still remember that Kalmbach also used to put out a publication that was called "Model Trains" which was geared more toward the younger or starting out Modellers.
I read them to the point I almost had the issues memorized and even had a couple of items printed therein. I knew that they were talking about "My Stage" of modelling right then. That did not mean that I didn't buy, read and drool over Model Rail;roader and hope someday that the things I was learning from Model Trains would carry me to the next level into "Model Railroading" and it has done just that.
This is a hobby for everyone and at any given time very few of us are at the same point. There is a very large learning curve that is constantly being added to by our individual interests of Prototype, Operations, new style electronics, multiple decks and so on and so forth. Radio control will probably be next. So just enjoy the place that you are at, marvel at your accomplishments, but don't dwell on them, keep growing and learning as that is what our Tony, Joe, Lynn, Dave and the like have done.That is how they have perfected their talents and got to the point of being recognized by all of us and their Piers as well.
This is my wish for all of you.
Johnboy out...........................
Long live the "Wobbly".
from Saskatchewan, in the Great White North..
We have met the enemy, and he is us............ (Pogo)