OK - What's that layout and really cost?

[brothaslide]

I was showing my wife the "Action at Nerska Tower" article from MRP 2004. I pointed out to her that the several engines shown in one of the photos could easily add up to over $300. There was another photo of an auto rack train and I told her that the train alone is probably worth over $500 or more[wow]. I also have the Allen Keller video of the Burlington Northern Santa Fe Chillicothe Subdivision (where Nerska tower is located) and this layout is huge, highly detailed, and fully stocked with all kinds of cars and locos.

So here is the big question, how much money is spent to produce a layout like this? $50,000, $100,000 - I would like to hear some good guesses out there.

Sean

[Anonymous]

Well, the Chicago Museum of Science and Industry "The Great Train Story" layout covers 3,500 square feet, and cost $3.5 million. So that's $1,000/sq. foot. I assume, in the absence of any other info) that this must include all rolling stock, engines, and control systems.

Andrew

[MAbruce]

QUOTE: Originally posted by masonjar

Well, the Chicago Museum of Science and Industry "The Great Train Story" layout covers 3,500 square feet, and cost $3.5 million. So that's $1,000/sq. foot. I assume, in the absence of any other info) that this must include all rolling stock, engines, and control systems.

Andrew

You have to be careful using that example as labor costs are sure to account for a good deal of that figure. Most of us do our own building, so our costs are for material only.

However, I would agree that the typical costs of these larger layouts can be rather staggering. This is not a cheap hobby.

Now to be fair, most of these costs are probably spread out over many years. But it’s still a tidy sum that probably reaches into the tens of thousands of dollars. Add brass to the mix and… [:O][:O][:O][:O]

[Anonymous]

MABruce - you are right, I should have included labour in my assumptions [:)].

Andrew

[vsmith]

Jesus, Joseph and Mary!

Thats the LAST thing I want to know is "How Much Has My Layout Really Cost Me"?

My layout has only cost me $100, thats because thats all i can spend per month and thats all i ever tell myself I've spent so I dont go into shock with the "real costs".

What are you trying to do? Put me in the hospital?

[brothaslide]

I paid 10 Billllllllllion Dollars for my layout.

Dr. Evil

[Eriediamond]

In short, more than me on mine!!!!!!!!

[Fergmiester]

QUOTE: Originally posted by vsmith

Jesus, Joseph and Mary!

Thats the LAST thing I want to know is "How Much Has My Layout Really Cost Me"?

My layout has only cost me $100, thats because thats all i can spend per month and thats all i ever tell myself I've spent so I dont go into shock with the "real costs".

What are you trying to do? Put me in the hospital?

I totally agree and to let your wife know what potential damage this could have on the family finances[:0]

What were you thinking!

If news as to the actual cost of some of the nickel and dime stuff got out the scandal would make our latest Liberal spending spree and gun registry FUBAR look like a mere pitance

NO[banghead]NO[banghead]NO[banghead]

[brothaslide]

Personally, that's why I think MR and other magazines never discuss the cost as I think it would discourage a lot of people before they ever got started.

However, I still would like to know what some of these "super" layouts cost.

Sean

[Anonymous]

Starting from scratch now, with no lumber, track, buildings, locomotives, or rolling stock, it is a bit on the daunting side. I even need to buy some tools (don't have much in the way of power tools) for my benchwork.

I think I am going to buy a "cheapish" engine, about half a dozen cars, and then put up my benchwork and a small bit of track, just to get my electrical skills up and running and make sure I have my ideas together...

[Anonymous]

I remember my first HO layout - a piece of 4 X 8 plywood, no grades, no scenery, just lots of track, much of it double-tracked. I had a transverse track that allowed me to change direction of the trains without having to touch anything.

Atlas Snap-switches all remotely controlled from the "cab", which was a small piece of 1/2" plywood on a couple of pieces of 1 X 1. I had a power-pack under the cab for the switch machines, and an MRC Tech II 1500 for the cab control. Was it prototypical? Hardly. Was it expensive? Not really, I had most of the tools available. Only cost was in material and rolling stock. Was it fun? Yepper! This was in the days before DCC was prevalent, so I had to wire everything up, taking into account polarity, etc.

Plywood, lumber, glue, and screws for model railroad: $100.00
Locomotives, cars, track, switches for model railroad: $250.00
Experience gained and fun realized on model railroad: Priceless.

I won't say I would do another one on the cheap, but if you're just starting out, hey, the main thing is to get your trains running. What you do after that is entirely up to you, and makes for a fascinating diversity of railroads, from the simple to the utterly extravagant.

Taking those first "baby steps" into the hobby I believed made it more attractive and more fun as I progressed in my experience.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by mrbornac

Starting from scratch now, with no lumber, track, buildings, locomotives, or rolling stock, it is a bit on the daunting side. I even need to buy some tools (don't have much in the way of power tools) for my benchwork.

I think I am going to buy a "cheapish" engine, about half a dozen cars, and then put up my benchwork and a small bit of track, just to get my electrical skills up and running and make sure I have my ideas together...

You can make a decent modular-type frame (sometimes called sectional or domino) with a "hand-powered" mitre box, and a drill/driver. If you use 1.5" - 2" foam in place of plywood for subroadbed, all you will need is a utility knife (boxcutter).

The answer to the cost question, like almost everything in model railroading, really depends. You can spend big bucks like the Museum, or few bucks, and invest a lot of your time to detail, upgrade, or otherwise improve on the "lower end" or mid-range models.

Andrew

[Anonymous]

I got into HO gauge in 1952. Back then, if you wanted something really nice you had to scratch build it. I still like to scratch build and it has kept my hobby expenditures under control more or less. My records show I have averaged spending $200 per year for 52 years, a total of $10,400. If I smoked 1 pack of cigarettes a day I would spend around $2,500 per year. If I purchased a hamburger for lunch every workday, I would spend approximately $2,000 per year in todays economy. The money I have spent on the hobby is a mere pitance when compared to the joy and satisfaction the hobby has returned to me.. I simply want to point out that there are options in this hobby that can reduce the amount of money you need to spend. On the other hand, if you have unlimited funds, then go for it and purchase all that neat ready to run stuff on the market, or even have your layout constructed for you. Just have fun along the way. After all, it is just a hobby.

Tom

[CNJ831]

Let's face it, if one fully duplicates any of MR's 4x8 layouts (except that awful $500 job recently!) , starting from scratch with a trip to the hobby shop and lumber outlet, assuming you purchase middle of the road materials and equipment, the very least you are likely to come up with is a price tag of around $1,500. Based on my own experience, a first rate, finished, small layout will probably run in the $5,000 range, while those basement-filling empires go for well over $25,000. Note also that the professional layout builders typically charge $50,000 to $100,000 for something impressive. The highest priced privately owned and custom-built layout I'm aware of went for $300,000+ to some pizza king in the mid-west!

CNJ831

[bcammack]

Starting from scratch in the hobby as I did in 2002 and building a 2x4 layout in N scale, I'd guess I'm into all of this for close to $600. This takes into consideration that I am intrinsically cheap and the only locos I have are Life-Likes of either trainset quality or are bargain-closeouts from ModelExpo. I figure about $100 total for two GP38-2s, an SW1200, and an FA/B-2 pair. The rolling stock is all undecorated stuff I bought from BLW. I've got another $30 in DPM structures. ($5,000 counting my labor. [:)])

[orsonroy]

I really don't WANT to know how much I've spent over the years on this fool hobby. I just did a quick, rough, and definitely lowball estimate on everything, and it came out to be $25,000 over the past ten years or so! Now that I'm working on the switch to DCC, I'll have to add at LEAST $3000 to that number.

Of course, people regularly spend $28,000 on other hobbies. Golf, fishing, boating, and antique cars will get you to this number a LOT faster than model railroading! And $28,000 isn't even a good downpayment on a bus-sized RV.

[ClinchValleySD40]

Sore subject. A couple of months ago the wife was getting papers together for tax time. At dinner she asks me if I know how much I spent last year on model railroading. Of course I didn't, I really don't care. She gave me the figure. I looked at the ceiling for a minute, then looked at her and said "Yep, that's about right" and kept on eating. She got over it.

[CP5415]

I don't want to tell my wife how much I've spent.
But I know I've spent close to $7000 in the past 3 years, most of it on locomotives & rolling stock. It's not much compared to others, but I'm really still getting my layout off the benchwork.

Gordon

[IRONROOSTER]

The trick is to spend it in small chunks. A $1000 this month a $1000 next and so forth. That way after 20 years you don't notice that you've spent a quarter million dollars on your hobby.[:D][:D]

Seriously, I have never added it up, nor do I intend to. I spend what I can comfortably afford to after the bills are paid, food is on the table, my retirement contribution is maxed out, etc. Some years all I could do was renew magazine subscriptions, other years I bought 2 or 3 engines, couple dozen cars, a few buildings. track etc. Most years I'm in between. Frankly after 33 years in the hobby I have enough stuff to build layouts in three scales (HO, O, and S), but I keep on buying anyway as new products appeal to me. Sometimes I think my hobby is collecting. But it has always been fun.
Enjoy
Paul

[rogerhensley]

As Ironrooster, what I've done has been over 22 or 23 years and I can say that it doesn't matter how much I've spent. I never take away from the family and when I had it, I would get what my railroad needed. I do draw the line at the terribly overpriced R-T-R locos and cars of today, but that is my choice.

Now, a comment. I really hate to see the "What did it cost?" or "I spent x amount for this" (spoken with pride). Some folks can put a lot of money into a layout while others put in a lot of time.To throw around a dollar figure does a terrible disservice to he hobby. It does nothing more than scare away new people from starting their layout. because they are afraid that it is too expensive. Maybe it would be if you laid out all of the money at one time, but not over a period of 20 years!! Some of these large fantastic layouts are not the work of one person, but of serveral helping out over a long period of time. How do you figure that? Why do you want to?

Sorry, but I put this into the same category of, "I spent 400 hours on this model." Nice, but it doesn't mean anything unless you want to build exactly the same thing in exactly the same way. I have some nice models that I scratchbuilt or kitbashed and I'll guarantee that I didn't take hundreds of hours. My attention span is not that long. :-)

Ciao.

[vsmith]

QUOTE: Originally posted by IRONROOSTER

The trick is to spend it in small chunks. A $1000 this month a $1000 next and so forth. That way after 20 years you don't notice that you've spent a quarter million dollars on your hobby.[:D][:D]

Paul

1000 BUCKS !!!!

Look Mr Rockefeller if I EVER spent that in a month, you'd be seeing stories on the news of and Unidentified Flying Object heading straight for the moon that appaered to be a Irishman with a boot lodged in his derrier!

[AggroJones]

QUOTE: Originally posted by IRONROOSTER

The trick is to spend it in small chunks. A $1000 this month a $1000 next and so forth.

$1000 a month!? Thats my modelling buget for a few years!

[CNJ831]

I have to take exception to rogerhensley's position that, "To throw around a dollar figure does a terrible disservice to the hobby." Any newcomer to the hobby deserves an honest answer when asking how much a typical layout costs because there is little or no reference to the answer in the hobby literature. I agree that, spread over the course of many years, the cost of our hobby does not have to be all that great. However, newbies want to build a complete first layout over just a couple of months - not years - and this is quite a different matter, with the total cost becoming very relevant.

On at least two occasions I've seen newbies come into a hobby shop, a copy of an MR 4x8 track plan hot in hand, and ask for a price on all the listed materials needed to build the layout. When they got the reply they were absolutely stunned and walked out of the store. I would contend that it is unfair not to provide some sort of very rough approximation of the costs for reproducing a given entry-level layout appearring in the magazines. Quite honestly, I know of no other hobby that is so secretive about its price tag.

CNJ831

[MAbruce]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CNJ831

On at least two occasions I've seen newbies come into a hobby shop, a copy of an MR 4x8 track plan hot in hand, and ask for a price on all the listed materials needed to build the layout. When they got the reply they were absolutely stunned and walked out of the store. I would contend that it is unfair not to provide some sort of very rough approximation of the costs for reproducing a give entry-level layout appearring in the magazines. Quite honestly, I know of no other hobby that is so secretive about its price tag.

CNJ831

It's more than just defining the cost in money; it's also the time one needs to spend. Material costs can vary as some of it can be offset by building your own items (which is getting harder to do in today’s RTR environment), but who has that much time??

Either way, when people (particularly “newbies”) look at those wondrous layouts in MR, that they can be grossly mislead. The simple truth is (for most of us) the layouts we covet as examples to shoot for are in reality hopelessly out of our range!

I can see why RR SIM’s are popular!

[Anonymous]

I am a perfect example of a newbie (I have been to train shows, and have a memory of a layout from my youth, but I have never built a layout of my own).

I would MUCH rather know getting into a hobby that it is not something I can afford at first, then waiting to figure that out for myself months (and dollars) later.

I am a supporter of the idea that the more information you can give someone, the better decision you allow them to make for themselves.

[Anonymous]

The problem with providing a price tag for a "typcial" layout, even a standard 4x8 is that there is no typical layout.

1) There are so many different ways of doing things - do you give the "kit" price - built it all yourself with free lumber, scratch-built everything out of home-cut lumber, or the built-up buildings and ready to run locos and rolling stock?

2) What is the typical layout - running brass, plastic, how many locos? What kind of control. DC with one loco is a lot less costly that DCC with 5 or 6 locos, but both are possible on a 4x8.

The best thing about this hobby is you can approach it with whatever means you have, and concentrate on whatever aspect interests you.

Quoting a price for a layout does do a disservice to the newbie, because it tell him or her nothing about the assumptions the shop owner (or whoever) is making when giving the quote.

CNJ831 - did the people who were suffered sticker shock in that particular shop get a chance to discuss how or why the cost(s) might be so high? Did the owner talk to them about their interests? For myself, I have found that building and weathering structures is the most interesting part (at least right now) with operations way down the list. Consequently, I spend my hobby $$$ on building kits, but not on locos - and I am having a great time.

Andrew

[rogerhensley]

Let me add that there is no secret about what I have in my layout. I probably have about $3,000 to $3,500 US. The figure is absolutely meaningless. Divide that by 23 years and , worse case, you have $152 a year. That's a hobby that anyone can get into. But I didn't build it all in 6 weeks!

I once owned a train hobby shop and started a number of folks, many of whom are still modeling today. I told each and every one of them to start with a basic plan and work toward what they wanted. I also told them that what they wanted would probably change so don't consider the first layout to be their ultimate layout. That''s honesty at work.

I also showed them how to get into the hobby at different price levels. That's what is required, not just laying out a price list of parts and scaring the newcomer senseless until they run out the door. That's a lost sale and a loss to the hobby.

[CNJ831]

Masonjar - With regard to the individuals I observed, the first were a couple. When they saw the figures they looked at each other and simply left without a word. In the second instance the person did involve himself in a brief discussion with the shop owner about the prices but quickly added that such a cost was rediculous for building something so small (4x8) and then left .

Concerning your correct statement that there is no _typical_ layout, I was implying the building of the typical entry-level layouts that appear in the pages of MR, RMC, et al. Such project layouts most certainly have a well determined price tag from those involved in their step-by-step construction for the article. Such a price guide was done singularly for that $500 layout that appeared in MR but I feel it should be standard for any such presentation where some readers are anticipated to build along with each installment of the construction articles. Since every major facet of putting together each of these project layouts is usually addressed in the text (locos & rolling stock, track & roadbed, power supply, scenery materials, even the lumber) there is no reason that the general costs couldn't be cited. In many instances it might assist newbies in choosing just which layout project to attempt - whether it is within their means or not. As I indicated in my previous post, ours is the only hobby I know where estimated start-up costs are generally hidden from the newbie.

CNJ831

[vsmith]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CNJ831


On at least two occasions I've seen newbies come into a hobby shop, a copy of an MR 4x8 track plan hot in hand, and ask for a price on all the listed materials needed to build the layout. When they got the reply they were absolutely stunned and walked out of the store. I would contend that it is unfair not to provide some sort of very rough approximation of the costs for reproducing a given entry-level layout appearring in the magazines. Quite honestly, I know of no other hobby that is so secretive about its price tag.

CNJ831

Couple of months? try a couple of DAYS,

Some newbies are completely baffled by the fact that they can't get the whole dam layout straight out of a 4' x 8' cardboard box, open the legs, plug it in, put the trains on the track and start running.

You know those N guage plastic ready made bases that you mount sectional track and scenery to. I have heard someone complaining about those becuase they thought that everything would be already done just like the advertisment shows, they didnt want to be bothered with any of the actual "work" of building a layout.

I explain to those who express any interest that this is very much a long term hobby, You cant get it overnight (even custon layout builders take a while to finish). this is a turn off to many who like Faruka Salt say " I want it NOW, Daddy, I want it NOWWWWW!!!!"

An example from another hobby...

RC aircraft have moved to RTR with a speed that to me is frightening. No one wants to bothered with actually "learning" how to build the plane they are going to fly. Bad for the hobby, IMO, they get the plane RTR but dont have any understanding about what makes it tick, no glide testing, no trim modifications, no clue what will make it fly well, All those things that allow a builder to know a plane and help to fly it successfully the first time up are not learned, so 30 seconds after takeoff when it nosedives into the ground they blame the plane and not the pilot.

I tell people to Sloooowly buy the things that will make up their layout, spread out the cost over several months, dont binge buy everything. Think about each purchase, dont start buying scenery before track is layed (unless its a really good sale) Also plan where they want to put the layout, even to prop up boxes & cardboard sheets of the approriate size of the layout they are planning to see if it is in a workable area, doesnt cause hardships getting to it or around it, right hieght etc all before they start putting together the 1st 1x's of benchwork (or 4x8 sheet of plywood).

[Big_Boy_4005]

The Mall of America layout cost me close to $250,000, ten years ago. That entire space was 2000 square feet, but some of that space was not part of the layout. But as mentioned before there was labor cost involved to produce that layout.

My new layout may not cost much at all. Even building from the ground up, most of the material is recycled from previous layouts, especially the one at the mall. I have lumber that is almost 30 years old, that is being used for the fourth or fifth time. I will have to buy some stuff, but not much.[banghead][swg]